Tuesday 7th February 2017
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
I'm not a soldier, I've never had to live in a war zone, I've never heard a declaration of war from any government filling me with fear for my own personal safety or the safety of my family. I've heard leaders declare war on nations far from where I lived. I was sick with dread for people I didn't know. I don't like war, ever. I don't support wars. Violence is failure, it's destruction and nothing more.
Equating the fear I feel over the 'Brexit' proceedings is not comparable to the fear I'd likely feel hearing declarations of war.
The short and long-term economic, social and political damage to most people and the country from 'Brexit' will be dreadful. It's dreadful now.
D Trump is a bad thing, a terrible US President and I fear his work. However, the US probably has sufficient systems in place to mitigate his damage and he'll be voted or impeached out.
Good god, I'm frightened for the UK.
Equating the fear I feel over the 'Brexit' proceedings is not comparable to the fear I'd likely feel hearing declarations of war.
The short and long-term economic, social and political damage to most people and the country from 'Brexit' will be dreadful. It's dreadful now.
D Trump is a bad thing, a terrible US President and I fear his work. However, the US probably has sufficient systems in place to mitigate his damage and he'll be voted or impeached out.
Good god, I'm frightened for the UK.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Dunt said on Friday that he didn't honestly believe the nightmare scenario outlined in Chapter One of his book was even possible...AngryAsWell wrote:Liz Kendall @leicesterliz 3m3 minutes ago
No serious concession from Govt on A50: no vote if no deal, accept their deal or fall back on WTO rules. Neither gives Parliament real say
...until last Wednesday.
His timeline over the last half hour or so is quite something.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Is surveymonkey a sufficiently robust consultation device? Is it conjunction with other consultation mechanisms, I hope? I was too dispirited to do the survey now.HindleA wrote:Consultation on Housing White Paper
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/QLLWWSS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Yes, I know.Willow904 wrote:There is no concession. The vote being offered is the same as before. Take it or no deal at allAnatolyKasparov wrote:Isn't this still rather significant, though? It indicates that the government may be willing to make another major concession if pushed??
Though the media have little interest in pursuing it, May has already been forced to do quite a few things that she did not want to do.
My point is, if all sides push further on this they *might* get something? The government wobbled for a minute there, they face trouble on this in the HoL.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Isn't this still rather significant, though? It indicates that the government may be willing to make another major concession if pushed??
Though the media have little interest in pursuing it, May has already been forced to do quite a few things that she did not want to do.
She's got exactly what she wants. The narrative established that scrutiny is "blocking Brexit" and the appearance of having been accommodating by publishing a joke White Paper.
I can't see anything positive.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
How do they "push" without threatening to vote against? Corbyn has already instated a three line whip for the bill on third reading, hasn't he? Tory rebels can only "push" with confidence if they know for certain the entire opposition are voting against, I would have thought.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, I know.Willow904 wrote:There is no concession. The vote being offered is the same as before. Take it or no deal at allAnatolyKasparov wrote:Isn't this still rather significant, though? It indicates that the government may be willing to make another major concession if pushed??
Though the media have little interest in pursuing it, May has already been forced to do quite a few things that she did not want to do.
My point is, if all sides push further on this they *might* get something? The government wobbled for a minute there, they face trouble on this in the HoL.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
AngryAsWell wrote:Happy Birthday from me as well PK - absolutely beautiful baby!yahyah wrote:Happy birthday PK. Hope you have a lovely day. X
Yahya - how you doing after your fall? Feeling any better? (fingers crossed)
Yes thanks. No lasting damage thankfully.
Spent the afternoon gardening, have cleared masses and all the little bulbs are looking cheerful.
What have I missed ?
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
I take the House of Lords point. But May could just ping it back. Unelected Lib Dem peers etc.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
With the public. The case against Brexit being whatever May says has barely been made.AnatolyKasparov wrote:That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
A possibly meaningless "meaningful vote" has been conceded by the government. It's being claimed as a victory by the opposition, being described as not all it seems by the Mirror and is bringing Ian Dunt to frustrated despair on Twitter.yahyah wrote:AngryAsWell wrote:Happy Birthday from me as well PK - absolutely beautiful baby!yahyah wrote:Happy birthday PK. Hope you have a lovely day. X
Yahya - how you doing after your fall? Feeling any better? (fingers crossed)
Yes thanks. No lasting damage thankfully.
Spent the afternoon gardening, have cleared masses and all the little bulbs are looking cheerful.
What have I missed ?
Opinion as to whether it means anything is divided on FTN.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
AnatolyKasparov wrote:That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
Absolutely.
And the primary responsibility for the failure to present any opposition to this whatsoever lies with....
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
AnatolyKasparov wrote:That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
From November would have been fine, when the red lines were drafted by Jez.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
StephenDolan wrote:She hasn't been forced to do anything. She's shown strong leadership whilst listening to her MP and addressing their concerns. Nothing to do with Starmer, no no.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Isn't this still rather significant, though? It indicates that the government may be willing to make another major concession if pushed??
Though the media have little interest in pursuing it, May has already been forced to do quite a few things that she did not want to do.
it isn't anything whatsoever to do with Starmer, no.
Poor sod looks a fool. He has a difficult brief admittedly, but the initial dewy eyed enthusiasm for him has now disappeared.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
This state of affairs, SH, is the responsibility of......
Those in Labour who planned then staged a leadership coup literally within minutes of the referendum result being announced, rather than holding a stunned government to account?
Just a thought.
Those in Labour who planned then staged a leadership coup literally within minutes of the referendum result being announced, rather than holding a stunned government to account?
Just a thought.
Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Tue 07 Feb, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Tubby Isaacs wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote:That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
From November would have been fine, when the red lines were drafted by Jez.
the November position was probably drafted by Starmer. Subsequently ditched by McDonnell.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
No. try again, as they failed and are not "leading" the opposition.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those in Labour who planned then staged a leadership coup literally within minutes of the referendum result being announced, rather than holding a stunned government to account?
How exactly the Evil Plotters in the PLP are to blame for how badly the leadership is performing now is a mystery. Did they undermine JC's confidence so that he is unable to think straight about the single market? Did they make him forget about his November Red Lines?
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
It's an online freebie that my sixth form students use to do mini bits of market research on their production projects. There's nothing wrong with it for what it is but it's a very big surprise to see the government using it. I have no wish to defame them, but as a free open online application I would doubt that its security is as robust as you would expect a government project to be.citizenJA wrote:Is surveymonkey a sufficiently robust consultation device? Is it conjunction with other consultation mechanisms, I hope? I was too dispirited to do the survey now.HindleA wrote:Consultation on Housing White Paper
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/QLLWWSS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Hang on. So Corbyn would have done something but was distracted till September. He then did not much else till November when he drafted red lines (including an absurd one one about subsidies that would get us kicked out of the Single Market). This goes nowhere and he then announces a 3 line whip for whatever May says?AnatolyKasparov wrote:This state of affairs, SH, is the responsibility of......
Those in Labour who planned then staged a leadership coup literally within minutes of the referendum result being announced, rather than holding a stunned government to account?
Just a thought.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
How about if the leader of the Labour party had called for and strongly campaigned for a second public vote, not a rerun of the first referendum although some like to portray it that way, if hard Brexit was the outcome ?SpinningHugo wrote:.AnatolyKasparov wrote:That narrative is "established" where, exactly?
This ties in with some of my recent posts, though - it is easier to push such a line when SOME on the remain side (and vocal elements, too) seem to think reversing/ignoring the referendum result would be both possible and desirable. If instead all "the 48%" (and, indeed, a few of the 52%) had united around "NO HARD BREXIT" from the start.......
By refusing to countenance that we are stuffed. Don't blame 'SOME' 48%ers for the mess we're in.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Hang on. So Corbyn would have done something but was distracted till September. He then did not much else till November when he drafted red lines (including an absurd one one about subsidies that would get us kicked out of the Single Market). This goes nowhere and he then announces a 3 line whip for whatever May says?AnatolyKasparov wrote:This state of affairs, SH, is the responsibility of......
Those in Labour who planned then staged a leadership coup literally within minutes of the referendum result being announced, rather than holding a stunned government to account?
Just a thought.
This was the fault of the evil plotting PLP (eg Ed Miliband) do keep up.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
CJA and others-link gives other ways to reply to consultatiion.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Ian Dunt @IanDunt 19m19 minutes ago
For record, I think the 'deal' May puts to MPs will be divorce settlement plus side of A4 with aspirations about future trade arrangements
For record, I think the 'deal' May puts to MPs will be divorce settlement plus side of A4 with aspirations about future trade arrangements
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
I agree with Ian. This is why I wanted Labour as far away as possible from this Brexit.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Parody eats itself and comes out the other side.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Bill containing something taking the UK out of the single market? The Bill containing something not in the Tory manifesto? Can the Lords stop it then?Tubby Isaacs wrote:I take the House of Lords point. But May could just ping it back. Unelected Lib Dem peers etc.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Thank youHindleA wrote:CJA and others-link gives other ways to reply to consultatiion.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Colin Wiles on Housing White Paper
http://www.24housing.co.uk/opinion/not-a-shooting-star/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.24housing.co.uk/opinion/not-a-shooting-star/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Apologies to surveymonkey, I didn't intend to impugn their reputation, I've participated in surveys with their platform, they're fabulous. Agree with you entirely about government consultation require more secure methods.adam wrote:It's an online freebie that my sixth form students use to do mini bits of market research on their production projects. There's nothing wrong with it for what it is but it's a very big surprise to see the government using it. I have no wish to defame them, but as a free open online application I would doubt that its security is as robust as you would expect a government project to be.citizenJA wrote:Is surveymonkey a sufficiently robust consultation device? Is it conjunction with other consultation mechanisms, I hope? I was too dispirited to do the survey now.HindleA wrote:Consultation on Housing White Paper
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/QLLWWSS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
As if we didn't already know this. But, anyway, the more it gets aired, the better.Universal credit flaws pushing claimants towards debt and eviction – warning
Guardian investigation reveals recipients falling into rent arrears because of payment delays and forced to turn to food banks (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... on-warning
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
The year of the price hike: Half of British firms expect to charge more as weak pound hits - and restaurant meals could soar in 2017
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Cja-DWP ones usually result in do the exact opposite/ignore overwhelming opinion.Recent overturning in one aspect of DCLG one.It just gives me extra bounce on jumping up and down at being ignored if I have given them something to ignore.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
And do they?yahyah wrote:Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.
Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??
Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.
Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Tue 07 Feb, 2017 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Excellent point. Could be worth watching.citizenJA wrote:Bill containing something taking the UK out of the single market? The Bill containing something not in the Tory manifesto? Can the Lords stop it then?Tubby Isaacs wrote:I take the House of Lords point. But May could just ping it back. Unelected Lib Dem peers etc.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
They'll have the consolation of knowing you're brave enough to admit you're worried[Anna Soubry] says she voted for article 50 last week because she said she would accept the result of the referendum.
But it worries her that she did not vote in the best interests of her constituents.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... c85909dea9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
This lionising of Soubry from certain "liberals" is even more pathetic than usual given that she has not voted against the government at any point in the Brexit process (and doesn't appear likely to) Instead she pathetically mewls that she "trusts Theresa"citizenJA wrote:They'll have the consolation of knowing you're brave enough to admit you're worried[Anna Soubry] says she voted for article 50 last week because she said she would accept the result of the referendum.
But it worries her that she did not vote in the best interests of her constituents.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... c85909dea9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I mean, she gave a decent speech - whoopy do. You know what, even Corbyn has managed that on occasion.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Good, good, whatever worksHindleA wrote:Cja-DWP ones usually result in do the exact opposite/ignore overwhelming opinion.Recent overturning in one aspect of DCLG one.It just gives me extra bounce on jumping up and down at being ignored if I have given them something to ignore.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
I think any position would be politically problematic. It's just that the sort of Kippery Labour voter is likely to hate Corby already for being beardy etc. And they're dying off anyway. It's not just an elite v heartland thing. I gave the example before of St Helens. 42% Remain. Adjust for Labour and under 60 and I reckon there's a lot of Remain there.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
AnatolyKasparov wrote:And do they?yahyah wrote:Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.
Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??
Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.
Starmer's press statement calls it 'a significant victory'.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
That may have been before it was "clarified"?yahyah wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote:And do they?yahyah wrote:Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.
Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??
Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.
Starmer's press statement calls it 'a significant victory'.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Well, exactly.AnatolyKasparov wrote:This lionising of Soubry from certain "liberals" is even more pathetic than usual given that she has not voted against the government at any point in the Brexit process (and doesn't appear likely to) Instead she pathetically mewls that she "trusts Theresa"citizenJA wrote:They'll have the consolation of knowing you're brave enough to admit you're worried[Anna Soubry] says she voted for article 50 last week because she said she would accept the result of the referendum.
But it worries her that she did not vote in the best interests of her constituents.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... c85909dea9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I mean, she gave a decent speech - whoopy do. You know what, even Corbyn has managed that on occasion.
'...it worries me I didn't vote in the best interests of my constituents...'
The only Tory I can tolerate is Bercow
And that's likely only because of his role
Tory policy, their legislation and leadership is systematically, fundamentally wrong
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
There's a lot of that. But equally you try and use opponents' dissenters as well as you can. It's quite a thing for her to say, and she''s likely to keep saying it. Same with Grieve, though his focus is more on legal issues.AnatolyKasparov wrote:This lionising of Soubry from certain "liberals" is even more pathetic than usual given that she has not voted against the government at any point in the Brexit process (and doesn't appear likely to) Instead she pathetically mewls that she "trusts Theresa"citizenJA wrote:They'll have the consolation of knowing you're brave enough to admit you're worried[Anna Soubry] says she voted for article 50 last week because she said she would accept the result of the referendum.
But it worries her that she did not vote in the best interests of her constituents.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... c85909dea9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I mean, she gave a decent speech - whoopy do. You know what, even Corbyn has managed that on occasion.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
And...there goes another one.
Never mind free schools, UTCs are the real policy disaster.Schools Week @SchoolsWeek 2m2 minutes ago
BREAKING: Greater Manchester University Technical College is to close at the end of August this year, its trustees announce. Story to follow
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
It's a bad thing, 'Brexit', not good for people and countryTubby Isaacs wrote:I think any position would be politically problematic. It's just that the sort of Kippery Labour voter is likely to hate Corby already for being beardy etc. And they're dying off anyway. It's not just an elite v heartland thing. I gave the example before of St Helens. 42% Remain. Adjust for Labour and under 60 and I reckon there's a lot of Remain there.
If Labour leadership figures they can Remain voters for granted, they're making a catastrophic mistake
Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Oh, no!RogerOThornhill wrote:And...there goes another one.
Never mind free schools, UTCs are the real policy disaster.Schools Week @SchoolsWeek 2m2 minutes ago
BREAKING: Greater Manchester University Technical College is to close at the end of August this year, its trustees announce. Story to follow
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Clarified ? Well no one's told Eoin Clarke. He's literally just tweeted the statement and thinks it is is an 'important victory'.
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... egin-yemen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Judicial review aiming to stop UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia to begin
Judicial review aiming to stop UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia to begin
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Re: Tuesday 7th February 2017
Clarke is (unlike Starmer) a prat. No disagreement hereyahyah wrote:Clarified ? Well no one's told Eoin Clarke. He's literally just tweeted the statement and thinks it is is an 'important victory'.
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