Tuesday 7th February 2017

[SpinningHugo]

Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.

And do they?

Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??

Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.

They do indeed. See Starmer, Thornberry and Labour press releases.

A complete embarrassment. Did they bother to even listen to what was said? Those on FtN who follow this figured out it was meaningless almost as soon as it was said. Desperate and incompetent.

[yahyah]

Clarified ? Well no one's told Eoin Clarke. He's literally just tweeted the statement and thinks it is is an 'important victory'.

Clarke is (unlike Starmer) a prat. No disagreement here

[AnatolyKasparov]

Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.

And do they?

Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??

Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.

They do indeed. See Starmer, Thornberry and Labour press releases.

A complete embarrassment. Did they bother to even listen to what was said? Those on FtN who follow this figured out it was meaningless almost as soon as it was said. Desperate and incompetent.

Maybe you should send a stern tweet to the BBC's Norman Smith, he's the person who got the ball rolling about how AMAZINGLY IMPORTANT it was

[citizenJA]

Tories got their apprenticeship schemes in place
Employers get full-time workers earning £3.40 an hour for an entire year
The IFS report spells it all

From April 2017, the government is introducing an ‘apprenticeship levy’, which is a 0.5% tax on employers’ paybill above £3 million per year. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) estimates that the levy will raise £2.6 billion in 2017–18, rising to £2.8 billion in 2019–20. Most of the increase in revenue will not be used to fund apprenticeships. In England, apprenticeship funding is set to increase by £640 million in cash terms between 2016–17 and 2019–20.

...only 2% of employers will pay the levy (because they have large paybills). We would expect a payroll tax such as the apprenticeship levy to result in lower wages for employees. The OBR estimates that the levy will reduce aggregate wages by 0.3% by 2020–21.

Government will pay over 90% of off-the-job training costs for apprenticeships, up to certain price caps. This will significantly increase the incentive to employ apprentices – particularly those aged 19 or over, for whom the government subsidy was previously 50% or lower.

The increased subsidies will incentivise employers to relabel existing training schemes as apprenticeships. This is one form of ‘deadweight’, with the government funding some training that would have occurred anyway. Such relabelling is made easier by the fact that employers can be funded to provide some training themselves.

- Reforms to apprenticeship funding in England

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8863" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

OK. Let's weigh this up.

Starmer thinks he's got something in getting the government to agree to a vote on the Brexit deal before it goes to Brussels.

Let's accept that's better than what we had before.

Ken Clarke's still right. You can't trust them. Starmer needs to get his concession in writing, he needs to get it pinned down.

[RogerOThornhill]

Oh my.

Steve Silberman ‏@stevesilberman 13m13 minutes ago

DeVos confirmed w/Pence casting tie-breaking vote, dooming a generation of American kids to ignorance and bigotry.

We really are heading for The Age of Dumb...

[AnatolyKasparov]

OK. Let's weigh this up.

Starmer thinks he's got something in getting the government to agree to a vote on the Brexit deal before it goes to Brussels.

Let's accept that's better than what we had before.

Ken Clarke's still right. You can't trust them. Starmer needs to get his concession in writing, he needs to get it pinned down.

He asked for that, I think?

[yahyah]

Asking for something doesn't always mean you get it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clarified ? Well no one's told Eoin Clarke. He's literally just tweeted the statement and thinks it is is an 'important victory'.

Clarke is (unlike Starmer) a prat. No disagreement here

He blocked me. You too?

[Willow904]

OK. Let's weigh this up.

Starmer thinks he's got something in getting the government to agree to a vote on the Brexit deal before it goes to Brussels.

Let's accept that's better than what we had before.

Ken Clarke's still right. You can't trust them. Starmer needs to get his concession in writing, he needs to get it pinned down.

He asked for that, I think?

What if he doesn't get it?

It keeps coming back to the same thing, Labour are going to vote for the Bill regardless.

You could say that without Tory rebels it's irrelevant, but then again maybe Labour's stance is why there's no Tory rebels. I'm still struggling to understand how Corbyn's "won't block Brexit" approach makes decent amendments more likely. I've never got the logic of this strategy.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Clarified ? Well no one's told Eoin Clarke. He's literally just tweeted the statement and thinks it is is an 'important victory'.

Clarke is (unlike Starmer) a prat. No disagreement here

He blocked me. You too?

Not actually on Twitter

[Willow904]

Kenneth Clarke, the Conservative former chancellor, says there is an easy solution to this. In EU negotiations it is not unusual to “stop the clock”. They could make allowance for the fact that the British government needs two weeks or so to get its deal agreed by parliament. He says the government should table an amendment, or promise to introduce one in the Lords. Or MPs could pass an amendment today, like Chris Leslie’s NC110, and get the government to replace it in the Lords.

Kenneth Clarke says MPs should vote for an amendment to make sure that the Commons gets a vote on the Brexit deal.
Grieve says he thinks there will be a problem with putting an amendment into the bill.

He says he preference is to trust the government to honour its promise.

Dominic Grieve, a leading Conservative pro-European, says he is not in favour of amending the article 50 bill to ensure the Commons gets a vote on the Brexit deal.

Trust a Tory government to keep its word? Yeah, right.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Oh my.

Steve Silberman ‏@stevesilberman 13m13 minutes ago

DeVos confirmed w/Pence casting tie-breaking vote, dooming a generation of American kids to ignorance and bigotry.

We really are heading for The Age of Dumb...

Might be a collision with the Base coming. She's a voucher ultra. Vouchers are not all that popular in rural areas for obvious reasons.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Politico Daily ‏@Politico_Daily 2m2 minutes ago
Former Education Secretary Nicky Morgan rowing with the Tory Chief Whip on the floor of the House #article50bill

PARLY ‏@ParlyApp 2m2 minutes ago
Tory MPs voting against the government; @neill_bob @Anna_Soubry Ken Clarke @ASandbachMP Tyrie - may be others #article50bill

[PaulfromYorkshire]

PARLY ‏@ParlyApp 2m2 minutes ago
Nicky Morgan refusing to vote. Whip sitting by her. #article50bill

[citizenJA]

@Willow904
Clarke's idea stuck out for me followed rapidly overshadowed by the absurd one from trusting Tory Grieve. Anyone know what Clarke means about 'stopping the clock'? I've no idea.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Matthew Pennycook MPVerified account ‏@mtpennycook 2m2 minutes ago
New Clause 1 withdrawn. Just voted for New Clause 110 #article50bill

[HindleA]

[youtube]hoS9Z6p_EM8[/youtube]

[yahyah]

only six Tory rebels ?

[yahyah]

Chris Leslie's amendment voted down by a majority of 33.

[Willow904]

@Willow904
Clarke's idea stuck out for me followed rapidly overshadowed by the absurd one from trusting Tory Grieve. Anyone know what Clarke means about 'stopping the clock'? I've no idea.

Oh, I think that was in response to the idea that the government can't guarantee a vote on an exit deal before it goes to the EU parliament because there might not be time. I think Clarke was implying this is nonsense, of course the EU can wait while parliament has a vote.

[HindleA]

https://redbrickblog.wordpress.com/2017 ... the-wheel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Housing white paper: Government reinvents the wheel

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Nicky MorganVerified account ‏@NickyMorgan01 16m16 minutes ago
Govt did make a concession but for No 10 to then brief there was no change & Minister to undermine it makes no sense. #article50bill

[refitman]

Febraury?

Yes. I didn't like to mention it . . .

Febraury is (contrary to popular belief) the cruellest month.

Oops

[PaulfromYorkshire]

So the former Education Secretary is Tweeting to say that Number 10 makes no sense.

Let's wait for the MSM to expose this chaos and division......

[Willow904]

So Starmer didn't even move for a vote on his "meaningful vote" amendment? And Chris Leslie lost his. So that's no regular reports to parliament, no consultation of devolved regions and no "meaningful vote" on the exit deal? What's left? Guarantees for EU citizens living in the UK?

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... c-violence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Putin approves change to law decriminalising domestic violence
Critics say amendment sends wrong message in country where one woman dies every 40 minutes from domestic abuse

[AnatolyKasparov]

Nicky MorganVerified account ‏@NickyMorgan01 16m16 minutes ago
Govt did make a concession but for No 10 to then brief there was no change & Minister to undermine it makes no sense. #article50bill

This would not surprise me - but of course it conflicts with the "all Labour's fault" narrative, so some won't want to believe it

[Temulkar]

Caroline Lucas, two hours ago. ''If Labour think this is a concession worth celebrating they are living on another planet''.

And do they?

Or is this just a cheap substance-free jibe from Lucas??

Bear in mind it was the BBC who first announced this as a major concession, not anybody from HM Opposition.

It's a jibe, CL knows that this is just manouveres and the battle royal won't be joined until negotiations start, and remains best chance to scupper things won't come until May has been shown to royally screw it up - which she will.

[Tubby Isaacs]

So what happens then? And when May says "you all voted tor this", what's the response? And who exactly believes Jez would be doing a better job negotiating?

[Willow904]

Nicky MorganVerified account ‏@NickyMorgan01 16m16 minutes ago
Govt did make a concession but for No 10 to then brief there was no change & Minister to undermine it makes no sense. #article50bill

This would not surprise me - but of course it conflicts with the "all Labour's fault" narrative, so some won't want to believe it

With no written amendment, how can anyone be sure what the "concession" is?

This is what David Jones, the Brexit minister, said to Sir Keir Starmer about the government’s concession. (See 2.29pm.)

First of all we intend that the vote will cover not only the withdrawal arrangements but also the future relationship with the European Union. Furthermore, I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses of Parliament before it is concluded, and we expect and intend that this happen before the European parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

This suggests the "final agreement" parliament gets to rubber stamp may be the new trade relationship, not the nature of the exit deal?

It's as clear as mud. Government is pulling a fast one and in the confusion all "meaningful vote" amendments have been defeated.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Seven Tory rebels: Heidi Allen, Ken Clarke, Robert Neill, Claire Perry, Antionette Sandbach, Anna Soubry, Andrew Tyrie

And six Labour: Field, Campbell, Hoey, Hopkins, Stringer, Stuart.

[Willow904]

Six Labour MPs voted against a parliament vote on the exit deal?

Ffs.

[Temulkar]

So what happens then? And when May says "you all voted tor this", what's the response? And who exactly believes Jez would be doing a better job negotiating?

It gets voted down, the government falls, and then some people may just have to suck up the fact that Corbyn is in charge of Labour and vote for him with their hands on their noses to keep the tories out, just like so many on the left did for Blair in 2001 and 2005.

[StephenDolan]

Six Labour MPs voted against a parliament vote on the exit deal?

Ffs.

No surprises at those names. None at all.

[HindleA]

http://m.insidehousing.co.uk/7018705.bl ... esuccess=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Has the White Paper fixed it?

[citizenJA]

@Willow904
Clarke's idea stuck out for me followed rapidly overshadowed by the absurd one from trusting Tory Grieve. Anyone know what Clarke means about 'stopping the clock'? I've no idea.

Oh, I think that was in response to the idea that the government can't guarantee a vote on an exit deal before it goes to the EU parliament because there might not be time. I think Clarke was implying this is nonsense, of course the EU can wait while parliament has a vote.

That's what I thought. Then I felt all my energy flood out of the bottom of my feet because government is trying to rail-road the nation into rush, rush, rush, because we have to, because democracy, because will of the people...

A commentator posting below the line somewhere else wrote decades of politicking over a Heathrow runway continues while the most important UK matter since WW2 is treated like an unstoppable force of nature.

[HindleA]

http://blog.shelter.org.uk/2017/02/gove ... -the-hype/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Government promises more security for renters. Should we believe the hype?

[Tubby Isaacs]

So what happens then? And when May says "you all voted tor this", what's the response? And who exactly believes Jez would be doing a better job negotiating?

It gets voted down, the government falls, and then some people may just have to suck up the fact that Corbyn is in charge of Labour and vote for him with their hands on their noses to keep the tories out, just like so many on the left did for Blair in 2001 and 2005.

Nobody is going to believe Jez would have done a better job negotiating.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Six Labour MPs voted against a parliament vote on the exit deal?

Ffs.

No Skinner or Mann.

[Temulkar]

So what happens then? And when May says "you all voted tor this", what's the response? And who exactly believes Jez would be doing a better job negotiating?

It gets voted down, the government falls, and then some people may just have to suck up the fact that Corbyn is in charge of Labour and vote for him with their hands on their noses to keep the tories out, just like so many on the left did for Blair in 2001 and 2005.

Nobody is going to believe Jez would have done a better job negotiating.

And?

When there is a majority for remain in the country the HoC can -and will - change direction if tory remainers finally develop a spine. At that point the government falls, and corbyn or whoever is Labour leader promises to overturn the ref.

That remain majority won't come until its apparent to even the most eurosceptic voter that Brexit is an absolute disaster - not all, there will still be some loons. At that point you are going to be faced with voting for Corbyn or letting May back in because you don't like him.

[AngryAsWell]

NHS crisis tracker
What’s the state of the NHS crisis in your area?

http://www.nhscrisistracker.org/?utm_so ... _look_fear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

It gets voted down, the government falls, and then some people may just have to suck up the fact that Corbyn is in charge of Labour and vote for him with their hands on their noses to keep the tories out, just like so many on the left did for Blair in 2001 and 2005.

Nobody is going to believe Jez would have done a better job negotiating.

And?

When there is a majority for remain in the country the HoC can -and will - change direction if tory remainers finally develop a spine. At that point the government falls, and corbyn or whoever is Labour leader promises to overturn the ref.

That remain majority won't come until its apparent to even the most eurosceptic voter that Brexit is an absolute disaster - not all, there will still be some loons. At that point you are going to be faced with voting for Corbyn or letting May back in because you don't like him.

Why do you personalise stuff so much? Completely unnecessary.

Labour's fingers are all over hard Brexit, thanks to it's weak opposition. Jez is the first firebrand who doesn't even oppose. The Tory Remainers are not going to force an election and risk their seats. That makes no sense.

[SpinningHugo]

I agree with Lucas

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At least there is someone with some F*&^ing backbone.

[Tubby Isaacs]

As it happens in 2005, I was hospitalised with mumps. I would have voted for George Galloway if not. I'm glad I didn't.

Does this fit with your view of me as Blairite?

[SpinningHugo]

Nicky MorganVerified account ‏@NickyMorgan01 16m16 minutes ago
Govt did make a concession but for No 10 to then brief there was no change & Minister to undermine it makes no sense. #article50bill

This would not surprise me - but of course it conflicts with the "all Labour's fault" narrative, so some won't want to believe it

We can tell from the words spoken by David Jones in Parliament. There was nothing remotely new in it. Then Starmer and Thornberry start claiming a concession was made, when nothing new had been said. It isn't the government that has embarrassed itself

[SpinningHugo]

I hadn't realised Starmer's idiocy made it easier for the Tories.It meant there was no vote on the official Labour amendment. What a complete duffer.

[SpinningHugo]

And here is Labour Press at 5pm putting out a statement from Starmer claiming a victory

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1569381 ... iament-and" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

buffoon.

[Willow904]

The fact that Andrew Tyrie voted for Chris Leslie's amendment just underlines how reasonable it was and how unreasonable Theresa May's government is rapidly becoming.

Not encouraging.

[Temulkar]

As it happens in 2005, I was hospitalised with mumps. I would have voted for George Galloway if not. I'm glad I didn't.

Does this fit with your view of me as Blairite?

Tubby I really don't know why you are taking offence at my posts, Im not having a pop at you, simply putting the point across that if there is an election you will have a choice between May and Corbyn, who are you going to vote for?

Corbyn may stand down of course, but Labour isnt going to more to the centre, the membership as Hugo keeps pointing out has changed. People are going to face a hard choice, Im fortunate I don't have to as Im nnot in a marginal and my voting green wont harm NNia Grifffith, but if Plaid were to make headroads in Llanelli, I would hold my nose and vote for the woman, despite my incredibly low opinion of her - before and since she went into politics.