Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 4:30 pm

Ronald Coyne has followed suit in Cambridge, setting fire to a £20 note in front of unemployed crane worker Ryan Davies, who was sleeping rough and had asked Coyne, dressed in white tie and tails, for some change. “You want change?” Coyne is supposed to have said. “I’ll change this into fire for you,” holding up the note and sparking it into flame courtesy of a cigarette lighter.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 74856.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Clanger world this is regarded as sociopathic and should at the very least involve getting kicked out of Cambridge (which remember gets additional tax payer funding compared to other universities) and community service at a homeless refuge. Plus counciling until he is can be consdiered humane.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 4:35 pm

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen said Crimea “has always been Russian” in a series of astonishing claims that defy the evidence that Moscow invaded Ukraine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66196.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Marine Le Pen set to win first round of French election as scandal-hit Fillon drops in polls
Conservative candidate and former favourite says his supporters ‘will go straight to Le Pen’ if he doesn’t get through to Round 2
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 72316.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

come on France - show yourselves that you're better than we are and get a grip.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 4:54 pm

Paul Nuttall moved house over safety fears, says Ukip (Guardian)

I'm very confused. I could make make neither head nor tail of that article. Can anyone here help, please?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... fety-stoke

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 4:54 pm

Good morfternoon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 4:59 pm

Afternoon @PF [hope it's warmed up down your way]

Would it be cynical to presume it may be Nuttall's attempt to make himself seem a victim to deflect from any alleged issues about his nomination form address ?
Ukip trying to move a bad news story on to their own advantage?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:01 pm

yahyah wrote:Afternoon @PF [hope it's warmed up down your way]

Would it be cynical to presume it may be Nuttall's attempt to make himself seem a victim to deflect from any alleged issues about his nomination form address ?
Ukip trying to move a bad news story on to their own advantage?

Warmed up??? It's snowing here (on and off) in the sunny south.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:04 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 73851.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit: People will die because of plans to set up UK-only drug regulator, cancer specialist warns
There is ‘no question’ that delays in the approval of life-saving new medicines will prove fatal for some, says Professor Paul Workman

Yes but sovereignty!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:04 pm

Diet update:
Just had an apple.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:05 pm

PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:Afternoon @PF [hope it's warmed up down your way]

Would it be cynical to presume it may be Nuttall's attempt to make himself seem a victim to deflect from any alleged issues about his nomination form address ?
Ukip trying to move a bad news story on to their own advantage?
Warmed up??? It's snowing here (on and off) in the sunny south.

Not settling I hope.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:06 pm

@yahyah

And to address your substantive point -

Yes, seems like a sympathy bid. But has he moved from the place he's just moved into? Already?

Edited to add -

No. Rather like Paul Nuttall, it's not settling.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:08 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Diet update:
Just had an apple.

Cor!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:10 pm

Sometimes I just don't care.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:10 pm

all caution to the wind.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:11 pm

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:15 pm

MPs voted overwhelmingly in favour to pass a Brexit bill earlier this week, keeping Ms May on track to meet her March deadline for triggering Article 50.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 73291.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which is (in my humble expectation) how I expect this to be reported (at best). Leaving the majority of people thinking it has cross-party backing, because the majority of people largely avoid reading about politics. As I said before the vote, the reality won't affect most people's understanding because they won't know it; they'll just believe Tories and Labour equally think Brexit is a good idea.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:21 pm

Something for us to look forward to tomorrow -

Joining Andrew[Marr] are leader of the House of Commons David Lidington, deputy leader of the Labour Party Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins of The Conservative Woman, journalist Rachel Shabi and columnist for The Times David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.

The only bright spot is Chrissie Hynde. Oh, and Rachel Shabi.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:42 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Ronald Coyne has followed suit in Cambridge, setting fire to a £20 note in front of unemployed crane worker Ryan Davies, who was sleeping rough and had asked Coyne, dressed in white tie and tails, for some change. “You want change?” Coyne is supposed to have said. “I’ll change this into fire for you,” holding up the note and sparking it into flame courtesy of a cigarette lighter.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 74856.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the Clanger world this is regarded as sociopathic and should at the very least involve getting kicked out of Cambridge (which remember gets additional tax payer funding compared to other universities) and community service at a homeless refuge. Plus counciling until he is can be consdiered humane.

An adult burning cash in front of someone who asking for some belongs in a psychiatric hospital for treatment. It's profoundly disturbed behaviour. I've never heard of such of thing prior to learning about this initiation ritual - within the last few years.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:48 pm

PorFavor wrote:Something for us to look forward to tomorrow -

Joining Andrew[Marr] are leader of the House of Commons David Lidington, deputy leader of the Labour Party Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins of The Conservative Woman, journalist Rachel Shabi and columnist for The Times David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.
The only bright spot is Chrissie Hynde. Oh, and Rachel Shabi.

Foolishly, I googled Laura Perrins & found she's not related to Lea & or Reginald, but did find this

http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/laur ... st-piffle/

When feminists hear an idea that clashes with their world-view, they run to their safe space clinging to their teddy and stroking their puppy. Books that are challenging must have trigger warnings. This is seriously life-limiting.
So I will allow my daughters their teddies and the safe space of their home for now (the eldest is 7) but I expect them to grow into responsible, decent, serious young women in the future. In sum, I hope they will be conservatives.

Wonder if she's get on well with Chrissie Hynde.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:54 pm

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's being a tease. 'big changes' since June in new poll published at 6pm.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 6:02 pm

Not sure why David Beckham's in the list amongst politicians in the new poll.

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 6:06 pm

Oh, it's not too bad. Seriously, thought it would be worse.
File under 'ignore' anyway. Polls, always wrong.

Tories 41% (plus 7)
Labour 26% (minus 3)
Lib Dems 11% (plus 3)
Ukip 11% (minus 8)
Greens 4% (same)

Smithson says the figures show 12% of 2015 Labour voters polled say they will now vote Lib Dem.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 6:25 pm

yahyah wrote:Oh, it's not too bad. Seriously, thought it would be worse.
File under 'ignore' anyway. Polls, always wrong.

Tories 41% (plus 7)
Labour 26% (minus 3)
Lib Dems 11% (plus 3)
Ukip 11% (minus 8)
Greens 4% (same)

Smithson says the figures show 12% of 2015 Labour voters polled say they will now vote Lib Dem.

Just standard. They're all showing a c. 15 point Tory lead.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 6:36 pm

Oh Wales. What a silly mistake.

Night all. As some brainy guy once sang ''Things can only get better''.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 6:38 pm

@yahyah

Night!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:@yahyah

And to address your substantive point -

Yes, seems like a sympathy bid. But has he moved from the place he's just moved into? Already?

Edited to add -

No. Rather like Paul Nuttall, it's not settling.

The house has been the subject of controversy after it emerged last week that it had been declared as Nuttall’s address in his nomination papers for the byelection, on 23 February, before he was resident there. The Electoral Commission’s guidance for candidates says those standing in Westminster elections must give their current home address on their nomination papers; this cannot be just a business address. Nuttall filed his papers on 31 January.

When Channel 4 News’s Michael Crick went to the house on 1 February, it appeared empty. When questioned by Channel 4, the Ukip leader said: “Yes. And I will be [living there]. I’m not now.” Staffordshire police subsequently said they were investigating after receiving a report of an allegation of election fraud. Ukip said the party was “entirely happy that all rules have been complied with”.

Nuttall defended himself on Twitter, saying: “A candidate being attacked for being prepared to move to his constituency must be a first ...”

(cJA bold)

Nuttall writes he's being 'attacked' for 'being prepared to move to his constituency' (Stoke Central). I've no idea what to make of Nuttall's lament.

Paul Nuttall has been reported to Staffordshire police for documenting his home address was somewhere he'd never lived. He's admitted this. The home address Nuttall's nomination papers listed was a residence he'd never lived in at the time of filing nomination forms for the Stoke by-election. The Electoral Commission rules state a candidate's address must be the home they're living in at the time of filling out and submitting those forms.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:11 pm

yahyah wrote:Oh Wales. What a silly mistake.

Night all. As some brainy guy once sang ''Things can only get better''.

Goodnight, yahyah!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:13 pm

ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:17 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

No, please do comment. I thought the whole point of weighting was so that the data reflects the electorate. I certainly don't believe Labour is within the accepted 3 point margin of error !

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:18 pm

tinybgoat wrote:Foolishly, I googled Laura Perrins & found she's not related to Lea & or Reginald, but did find this

http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/laur ... st-piffle/
When feminists hear an idea that clashes with their world-view, they run to their safe space clinging to their teddy and stroking their puppy. Books that are challenging must have trigger warnings. This is seriously life-limiting.
So I will allow my daughters their teddies and the safe space of their home for now (the eldest is 7) but I expect them to grow into responsible, decent, serious young women in the future. In sum, I hope they will be conservatives.
Wonder if she's get on well with Chrissie Hynde.

People I don't like very much almost universally have delightful children, in my own experience. When it's appropriate and possible, I meet children of people I don't like and my peace is almost always tolerably restored.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:30 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

That isn't true is it?

They have a 6 point lead without adjustment. See table 1

http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/ ... 847231.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:31 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:So: is there something we want to do vis a vis board rules and whether the site would ever ban anyone?

I find ignoring posts pretty straight forward, but am disconcerted in the presence of any clearly seriously malevolent force.
I can't tell if SH, or anyone else here at the moment is malevolent, though I do find the total lack of response to accusations quite strange.

My preferences are:
- to avoid us and them mentality (and note that I am expressly excluding myself as any kind of us - or them)
- to avoid posting in anger (draft and then amend before sending)
- to be open yet develop some rules that might help prevent so many people leaving
- to understand the loss of a large number of people post-Brexit - it would be good to know what the various departures were about and see whether any behavioural rules might ameliorate
- to develop some way of deciding whether someone should be banned - and if so for what reasons - though that might merit a warning of some sort which seems onerus and I have no suggestions on how it might be done
- to have some kind of "jinx" procedure where we can make a comment (eg: JINXED COMMENT: all this talk about Brexit is driving me nuts and I want to talk about something else for a bit) and people can ignore it but not argue with it. This would allow the reflection of discontent without triggering the kind of argument that one would like to try to avoid

There are probably other things too.

Like you I find ignoring posts that irritate easy to do, I don't engage with things I know will wind me up.
I'm not in favour of banning, unless someone is particularly foul or personally abusive. That way leads to the echo chamber we all (I think) want to avoid.
Maybe it would helpful if SH was a little less sharp and/or abrasive, but then again I read his posts to be for or against the argument, rather than the person posting it. (Waves at SH coz I don't want to talk "about you" as though you weren't here.)
The "jinx" procedure could work, but maybe others are actually interested in the tread, so that leads us back to - just ignore.
Draft and then amend before sending : I do that all the time, mainly because of my dyslexia, but I have often gone back and thought "do I really want to say that?" and deleted it, so yes that works.
I think using the emoticons to indicate joking, sarcasm and such could be helpful.
I don't think we can find a one system suits all positions, we are - in the main - an open welcoming bunch, those that have left have done so for many varied reasons and I'm not sure we could have rules that would cover each individual upset.
Thank for posting TC, and for the thoughts you have put into it
Anyone else any thoughts or ideas ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:38 pm

Ron Moore MP
‏@RonMooreMoreRon

Sometimes our kipper chums just gift you the laugh of the week.

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This from Britain First Spain(!) is a corker

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:39 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

That isn't true is it?

They have a 6 point lead without adjustment. See table 1

http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/ ... 847231.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was admittedly repeating the claim of someone (not a Labour supporter) elsewhere. But even that is still a pretty big change.

Btw pk1 I know what weighting is for, the point is good pollsters don't need to do it as much!

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:40 pm

I don't know why some people have such a problem with Hugo posting here - the 'ignore' function exists for a reason & it works (until someone quotes whoever it is you're ignoring but no system's perfect). I find some of his links useful, such as the one to Jonathan Freedland's piece today.

Don't agree with banning - it's too easy to whip up a storm against a poster. Democracy means we can all hold differing opinions without being ousted from society - in our case, this FTN society.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:41 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

That isn't true is it?

They have a 6 point lead without adjustment. See table 1

http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/ ... 847231.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I was admittedly repeating the claim of someone (not a Labour supporter) elsewhere. But even that is still a pretty big change.

Btw pk1 I know what weighting is for, the point is good pollsters don't need to do it as much!

Are there any pollsters who don't use weighting ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:44 pm

Whilst we are on polls...

Theresa May faces public backlash over hard Brexit, poll finds
Just 35% of British public in new ICM survey would back Britain leaving the EU without agreement with other states

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... h-icm-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 7:44 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:ComRes had a three point Tory lead before "weighting". I refrain from further comment.

That isn't true is it?

They have a 6 point lead without adjustment. See table 1

http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/ ... 847231.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I was admittedly repeating the claim of someone (not a Labour supporter) elsewhere. But even that is still a pretty big change.

Btw pk1 I know what weighting is for, the point is good pollsters don't need to do it as much!

Actually, I'm wrong. It is question 3 (not 1) with a 7 point lead, but that includes don't knows/wont says etc, so that comes out at around 9/10 when you take them out. So no, not much of an adjustment really. The adjutments are still smaller than those that would have been required to have got to the result in 2015.

But, as I said, it isn't significant as it is in line with all other polls.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 8:24 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... erans-camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Army veterans return to Standing Rock to form a human shield against police
A growing group of military veterans are willing to put their bodies between Native American activists and the police trying to remove them

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 8:28 pm

There is something very wrong with this pair of Sainsbury's Valentines Day mugs
Once seen it cannot be unseen.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... s-12592016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 8:36 pm

A Mexican immigrant designer has sent 'f*** your wall' underwear down the runway at New York Fashion week as a political statement against Donald Trump.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/m ... ign=buffer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 9:10 pm

Brexit four times worse for UK economy than previously believed, say MIT economists
New research claims leaving the EU will have bigger impact on UK productivity than had been thought

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 3103873-tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;#1486801143036

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:13 pm

Northern Ireland peace at risk because of Brexit, says Bertie Ahern

Irish leader who helped secure Good Friday agreement says he fears the consequences of a border dividing north and south (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rtie-ahern

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:19 pm

Am not in favour of banning either which is why I suggested other measures - I should add that this isn't specifically about SH (who comes across more as a programmed response entity than a person and so difficult to get annoyed with). It is more a general query in light of losing so many excellent posters since June.

Given the last 6 months I would like to know more about why people leave so we can maybe do something to mitigate against it. I want more people not less. On the other hand if it got like most message boards here, it would not be sustainable.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:31 pm

the whole political class has let the country down on Brexit, agreeing with the referendum, making no effort to set any kind of limits, running away after the result, and failing before, during or after to understand - never mind communicate to the rest of us - what the likely implications of leaving the EU are.

I saw some posters for Great Britain on the train today, and realised that I basically no longer think that it is.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:41 pm

Duplication.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:41 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -rebellion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Church faces new split over attitude to gay relationships

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:01 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/edi ... 75046.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We must guard against hate crimes, but Britain is not a racist country
Police warn against spike of xenophobic attacks when Article 50 is invoked, but we must not think that the vote for Brexit means racism is rife

I think it.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:02 pm

Donaeld The Unready
‏@donaeldunready

Bishop of Lichfield Saint Chad. Great guy. Saw him in front of gold background and knew he was the bishop for me. Future is looking crozier.

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tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:03 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Am not in favour of banning either which is why I suggested other measures - I should add that this isn't specifically about SH (who comes across more as a programmed response entity than a person and so difficult to get annoyed with). It is more a general query in light of losing so many excellent posters since June.

Given the last 6 months I would like to know more about why people leave so we can maybe do something to mitigate against it. I want more people not less. On the other hand if it got like most message boards here, it would not be sustainable.

Should add I understand it's not about me.
(embarrassed emoticon)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:09 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75221.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dozens of Tory MPs back plan to give fast-track visas to 52 Commonwealth countries
The 45 MPs have written to the Home Secretary calling for closer ties with the Commonwealth

Excellent idea - maybe they'll agree to rejoin the Empire and we can just go back to 1922.