Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:13 pm

Can I just say that if anyone thinks I'm being bitchy, passive aggressive or just plain nasty please tell me. Because that is not me. I do (in real life) have a quirky sense of humour which may not come across in written communication, and if that has happened, can I just say sorry if I have unintentionally insulted anyone. Truly, it was not meant nastily

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:18 pm

Donaeld the Unready is my hero:

The best medieval King out there. I'm the bretwalda. The bestwalda. I've got great swords, everyone says so. Make Mercia Great Again. Great thoughts, all my own

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:20 pm

I've got great swords. So if anyone HAS seen my hanging basket, now would be the time to say.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:22 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I've got great swords. So if anyone HAS seen my hanging basket, now would be the time to say.

Nop - but I've pinched your bag of apples......

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:25 pm

Mutaz Elnour
‏@ElnourReport
Love this: ban Muslims? Ban men.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:29 pm

[youtube]wk9fkiEOtf4[/youtube]

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:40 pm

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:01 am

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:52 am

HindleA wrote:Duplication.

Is that mandatory or optional

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:54 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... says-south" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Korea shoots missile 500km in 'show of force' to Trump, says South

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:57 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -newspaper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alec Baldwin's Donald Trump impersonation fools Dominican newspaper

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 9:19 am

Good morfternoon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:04 am

Have you seen William Keegan's piece PorFavor ?
I always read him first on a Sunday, think you are a fan of his too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... conscience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And what's Tom Watson been saying on Marr ?
My husband switched the tv on to set the recording for the rugby and saw some of it as the channel was set on the BBC.
He switched it off and left the room muttering under his breath and shaking his head.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:18 am

Deja Vu?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:22 am

@yahyah

I haven't read the William Keegan piece yet (and, yes, I am a fan of his).

Tom Watson was a bit subdued, I thought. He was waffly enough not to hold my interest so I went out of the room to make a cup of tea. I saw enough to glean that he's a Chrissie Hynde admirer but beyond that . . .

Edited - typo

Edited (again) to add -

The Andrew Rawnsley article isn't too bad today, either. (Although the first paragraph is a bit snidey - and I don't even like Diane Abbott.)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ur-history

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:34 am

To this fictional resident of one of Lancashire’s grimmest mill towns, Merrie England advocated a socialist transformation of the most advanced capitalist economy in the world. Using his Latin pen-name, Nunquam, Blatchford deployed satire and polemic to call for communal collaboration to replace competition and chasing profit as the driving force in human lives.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n-to-roots" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:49 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
To this fictional resident of one of Lancashire’s grimmest mill towns, Merrie England advocated a socialist transformation of the most advanced capitalist economy in the world. Using his Latin pen-name, Nunquam, Blatchford deployed satire and polemic to call for communal collaboration to replace competition and chasing profit as the driving force in human lives.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n-to-roots" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the article (quoting the book) -

“Take the case of a tram guard working, say, 16 hours a day for £1 a week,” begins one of Nunquam’s rhetorical salvos. “That man is being robbed of all the pleasure of his life. Now there ought to be two guards working eight hours at £2 a week. If the tram company makes big dividends the cost should come out of those dividends.”

And, in industries where now automation has increased productivity, the costs should be around the same (not double).

What will we do with all our leisure time (as they once asked)?

Edited - typo.

Edited (again)

What I mean is -

The profits should be the same (not the costs).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:56 am

Going back to the board for a moment.

When I say I ignore stuff I don't want to read. What I mean is I'm more interested in some stuff than others. Likewise if I go on a group outing there are some people I'm inclined to seek out and some I'm inclined to avoid. If said outing includes dinner, I choose my seat location very carefully so as to avoid feeling the need to pull my own eyes out at some point during the starter.

For me at least the kind of diversity we sought here originally has always required speed reading some posts (or, rarely, posters) and spending time on others. It's as much a matter of what resonates at the time as anything. I joined FTN via its first incarnation when the G became intolerable. It's been choppy all along - and I have often worried it can't survive. But PfY leaving is not something - I think - to be overlooked.

I am puzzled, I have to say by the SH issue. If you don't want him here don't engage with him. Certainly I don't want the board dominated by his untold misery. Eeyore is all well and good, but you wouldn't want to live with him. SH - what's your view on the fact that so many people want you to leave? Give us a clue as to why you're here. (I personally am unperturbed but know that other people will get irritated and so am annoyed by the fact that someone will end up leaving). Is that your goal? If not just say so. Perhaps you just lack variety with respect to turn of phrase (though your spelling can get quite cutting-edge).

Obviously, however, SH is not the fundamental problem. People have left well before he was around much.

My feeling is it's difficult to have certain conversations in a forum like this. If you go one to one it's a problem, if you do it on the thread it's a problem. So things don't get resolved. SH is not my concern, but the steady flow of posters away from the board is. One key thing I know is that self-righteousness and failure to tolerate other views than one's own cannot sustain an open board where different opinions are held. BUT THIS IS THE POINT OF THE DAMN BOARD. (sorry, for shouting). Whether from lack of self-awareness or something more deliberate, there is an important difference between agreeing with someone and respecting that their view is different. It can be struggle, but it's essential to develop an ability for the latter for forums like this to work well. Likewise, trying not to read the worst possible version of a post might be helpful. I've done it myself a couple of times, and endeavour to improve.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:58 am

Lisa Nandy scaremongering

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Matthew Engel always readable

https://www.ft.com/content/bcfe0106-ede ... 1b01e23655" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But, as the latter says, Labour just isn't going to lose Stoke. Ukips peaked long ago.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:46 am

That was one of the best things about last night's poll - to see Ukip down 8 points.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:58 am

People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:05 pm

Of course yahyah, you used to be a confirmed Corbyn supporter (something I have never been)

The zeal of the convert will always be unsettling to some.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:13 pm

The other thing is to keep it in perspective. Easier said than done though.

My husband was despondent after hearing Watson use yet another version of 'Labour will follow the will of the people'.
Now he's cheered us both up by playing a daft tune on a kazoo and drumming on a washing up bowl.

Going out for a hill walk now, look down over the valley that's barely changed in a hundred or more years, will need to be well wrapped against the bitter cold.
Maybe someone will find some good news later ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:17 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Of course yahyah, you used to be a confirmed Corbyn supporter (something I have never been)

The zeal of the convert will always be unsettling to some.

Nice dig Anatoly.

Confirmed, hardly, I warned my husband he came with a mass of baggage, and a bunch of hardcore people. Boy was I right

My confidence in him waned pretty quickly tbh. Those where depressing times, after the 2015 defeat, seeing Ed trashed. I was also in a difficult place with severe anxiety.

But hold it against me, why don't you ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:18 pm

Now, off for that walk.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:20 pm

Its not really a dig, just a factual observation. You do know the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, I presume?

Enjoy your walk, its a good day for such things

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:31 pm

yahyah wrote:People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

The only "piss off" I remember was when HindleA wrote "pis of" which was a sort of running joke between the two of us. Is that what you mean or did I miss the other one?

Enjoy your walk (and do try not to trip up!).

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:01 pm

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

Well, I'm a (relatively) cheery pessimist and not a party member/loyalist, so while I may not post often I'm not being nudged anywhere.

edited to add: and I see I've just been promoted so I'm staying for the increased pension.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:24 pm

PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

The only "piss off" I remember was when HindleA wrote "pis of" which was a sort of running joke between the two of us. Is that what you mean or did I miss the other one?

Enjoy your walk (and do try not to trip up!).

Paul told Hugo to piss off on the night of the Article 50 vote.
Not anything to do with your fun and enjoyable banter posts.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:43 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... says-south

North Korea shoots missile 500km in 'show of force' to Trump, says South

oh no
I wish they wouldn't do that

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:49 pm

yahyah wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

The only "piss off" I remember was when HindleA wrote "pis of" which was a sort of running joke between the two of us. Is that what you mean or did I miss the other one?

Enjoy your walk (and do try not to trip up!).
Paul told Hugo to piss off on the night of the Article 50 vote.
Not anything to do with your fun and enjoyable banter posts.

No he didn't he said "Sod off".
Quite mild under the circumstances.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:51 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
yahyah wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
The only "piss off" I remember was when HindleA wrote "pis of" which was a sort of running joke between the two of us. Is that what you mean or did I miss the other one?

Enjoy your walk (and do try not to trip up!).
Paul told Hugo to piss off on the night of the Article 50 vote.
Not anything to do with your fun and enjoyable banter posts.
No he didn't he said "Sod off".
Quite mild under the circumstances.

Sorry, my memory wrong then.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 1:51 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:15 pm

yahyah wrote: Paul told Hugo to piss off on the night of the Article 50 vote.

Nothing wrong with that imo, although I'd rather nobody responded to him at all.

From your earlier post.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

This is what I don't like. Substitute 'the UK' for 'Labour' and that's how I feel, I come here to be reminded that I'm not alone and others share my despair about the state of the country.
It isn't all about Labour, or Corbyn, and everything wouldn't be hunky-dory if there was a 'proper opposition'.

I agreed with PfY about most things and am sorry to see him go.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... lamophobia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Swiss vote to ease citizenship process for third-generation immigrants

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:32 pm

I'm sorry you don't like it, I'm not exactly delighted with it myself.

It's been hard to even read about what the Tories have been doing since 2010.
It is hard to bear. I find it almost too hard to do now.

Of course it wouldn't be hunkdory if Corbyn resigned. Who on earth thinks that ?
The state the Labour party and the country is in is not all about Corbyn. The state the Labour party is in is why we ended up with such a poor selection of candidates in 2010.

Anatoly, for his own reasons, called me a 'confirmed' Corbyn supporter. No I wasn't. Confirmed means dyed in the wool, long term,
I never was a zealot, although it was easy to just read the things his more zealous supporters put forward and not question it for a while. And I thought he should be given a chance - I gave him a chance and when he fell short I couldn't vote for him again.
I've apologised for helping create the mess we have now.
I thought about not voting for any of them in 2015, Cooper, Burnham, Corbyn or Kendal.
Although my heart is with policies of the left, unless we get a brilliant leader there seems little chance of getting voters to go for it. Compromise will be necessary, unless we want another couple of Tory terms.

I miss Paul. But he was, by his own admission, and I am remembering this word correctly feeling quite 'fragile'. That's what he said. He nearly lost it with Willow on one day, he got ratty with me on the day of the vote.
He was clearly conflicted in feeling he had to present the best face possible for Labour at all times.
Looking for a scapegoat, or more than one, is the easy option.

There are zealots of all types. Not all are aware of their zeal.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:32 pm

Cooky
‏@markcarline44

This never fails to amuse......WTF have you done America ?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Out of interest, why did China build the Great Wall? (I must have been asleep or daydreaming when we did that bit in History)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:42 pm

Alan WhiteVerified account
‏@aljwhite

If you're looking for reasons to love Twitter, there's a bookshop currently tweeting an entire Harry Potter novel at Piers Moron.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:44 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Cooky
‏@markcarline44

This never fails to amuse......WTF have you done America ?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Out of interest, why did China build the Great Wall? (I must have been asleep or daydreaming when we did that bit in History)

To keep out the nomadic tribes to their north, basically? And it was a show of strength by the Qin emperor, after he had just (re)united China.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Cooky
‏@markcarline44

This never fails to amuse......WTF have you done America ?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Out of interest, why did China build the Great Wall? (I must have been asleep or daydreaming when we did that bit in History)
To keep out the nomadic tribes to their north, basically? And it was a show of strength by the Qin emperor, after he had just (re)united China.

Thanks, filling in bits I missed at Secondary School

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:01 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... chlandlied" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

US Tennis says sorry for using Nazi-era anthem before Germany Fed Cup match

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:04 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... ia-somalia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Famine looms in four countries as aid system struggles to cope, experts warn

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:08 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... nditioning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hamburg airport evacuated after toxin affects 50 passengers

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:09 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... go-errejon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Podemos leader tightens grip on Spanish party after landslide re-election

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:11 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ing-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No place like home: America’s eviction epidemic

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -interview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:12 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Cooky
‏@markcarline44

This never fails to amuse......WTF have you done America ?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Out of interest, why did China build the Great Wall? (I must have been asleep or daydreaming when we did that bit in History)
To keep out the nomadic tribes to their north, basically? And it was a show of strength by the Qin emperor, after he had just (re)united China.
Thanks, filling in bits I missed at Secondary School

All I remember from secondary school geography is crop rotation and oxbow lakes. Geography teacher was a complete bastard who everyone hated.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:14 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:My feeling is it's difficult to have certain conversations in a forum like this. If you go one to one it's a problem, if you do it on the thread it's a problem. So things don't get resolved. SH is not my concern, but the steady flow of posters away from the board is. One key thing I know is that self-righteousness and failure to tolerate other views than one's own cannot sustain an open board where different opinions are held. BUT THIS IS THE POINT OF THE DAMN BOARD. (sorry, for shouting). Whether from lack of self-awareness or something more deliberate, there is an important difference between agreeing with someone and respecting that their view is different. It can be struggle, but it's essential to develop an ability for the latter for forums like this to work well. Likewise, trying not to read the worst possible version of a post might be helpful. I've done it myself a couple of times, and endeavour to improve.

(cJA edit)

Thank you for this.

It's difficult communicating ideas and feelings well using words. Some writers make it seem easy. For most people, it's not. It's a skill. It's easy to misunderstand, even after considerable time communicating with the same people. I don't mind emoticons but cartoons are another kind of 'language'. I know what I mean using words and emoticons. I've learned through trial English regional differences sometimes cause difficulty. I don't assume everyone understands my references. I've been with my spouse many years. We still ask each other for clarification. I sometimes don't understand what others mean. Be slow to anger, ask for more information, know what's going on inside yourself as much as possible.

I've shared private information exchanged throughout the years from some here. I value and respect trust placed in me. Knowing people has meant publicly shared comments from some inoculates me from experiencing offence of any kind from them. I don't suggest we all divulge information about ourselves, no. I can't emphasis that enough. We're all multi-faceted, complex human beings, that's all I mean.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:15 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... hite-house" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a rocky ridge over Ramallah, settlers put their faith in Trump
On the eve of Netanyahu’s White House visit, an emboldened Israeli right wing sees a chance to build – and to renounce the two-state solution

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:20 pm

yahyah wrote:People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.

YahYah - I used the word "examine" the other day. But I definitely didn't tell anyone to 'piss off'. Your conflation suggests that I did.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:24 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:People leave for various reasons.
And come back for varying reasons too.

This has got to be one of the lowest points for Labour since...well since the last one, but this one feels worse, deeper, less easy to see a way out of.

Trying to blame people like Hugo, or no doubt me as well, for being...whatever the latest insult is....
is frankly to ignore reality.

Maybe worth examining that, rather than telling people to 'piss off' as happened the other day ?

It seems odd that people should be being cold shouldered or nudged into going because they fail to be cheery and optimistic or party loyalists to the point of causing obvious stress to themselves.
YahYah - I used the word "examine" the other day. But I definitely didn't tell anyone to 'piss off'. Your conflation suggests that I did.

I meant Paul...but tinyb has a better memory and said it was 'sod off'.
It did not refer to you in any way.

It is badly phrased, I am sorry for that. Add it to my long list of misdemeanours. Crap sentence construction when feeling emotional and blamed.

But it is not about you. And if you followed the advice you suggested we all took, think you may have also told me when 'taking (me) to task' in the private message you sent me, to hold fire before taking offence and posting, you'd have read tinyb's post and my response which clarifies it was about Paul's post.