Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RobertSnozers wrote:SH, please don't forget that you were completely, utterly, embarrassingly wrong about aviation, despite pontificating on the subject, and when it was pointed out how wrong you were, doubled down and repeated your original, excruciatingly wrong point.
As you know, I don;t accept that at all. The developments in civil aviation since the 747 came into service in 1969 pale into insignificance compared to the developments from 1903-1969. The pace of improvement has slowed dramatically.
RobertSnozers wrote: You were also offensively wrong about the pressure the NHS is under, declaring it to be a short term 'uptick' over the coldest week and not the reality which is sustained demand on an unprecedented level coinciding with years of flat funding and disruptive reorganisation leading to record numbers of cancelled operations and failure to meet basic targets for months.
Again, I don't accept that. Clearly the NHS is being underfunded and more should be spent per capita as the population ages. But to deny, as you do, that there are pinch points in the year, in particular in January where we see a combination of A&E demand from people who postpone seeking help over Xmas, and the general upswing in accidents/illness over winter is, I am afraid, a bit daft. Nobody thinks demand, and hence the pressure, remains the same all year round.
RobertSnozers wrote:So this is where you are not just offensive but dangerous. You claim knowledge you just don't have in order to further your agenda. People being generous might attribute to you some proportion of the expertise you claim. You left temporarily once before after having been caught in a lie, and went to ground until it had blown over rather than stick around to either apologise or defend your actions.
There is of course a contradiction here. If, as you claim, my arguments were clearly and obviously wrong, easily refuted by your superior grasp of these things, nobody would be taken in. Certainly not on a message board like this. You could laugh it off as just another rightwing troll making mischief and ignore it.

I think the very examples you've given indicate why you can't do that.
RobertSnozers wrote:Then there's the obvious contempt for other members, which you've outlined above at length.
I don't generally have contempt for people. Very few on here defend Corbyn's views on the IRA or Putin or Hamas. The line of defence is usually the soft-leftish one of explaining away his views, rather than defending them, or engaging in whataboutery. If I did have contempt I wouldn't bother engaging, and that includes with you.
RobertSnozers wrote:You have been personally rude to people. You haven't used expletives, which frankly I don't give a fuck about. They're just words. Your insults are far more invidious. Just because you can avoid swear words doesn't make you morally superior. You don't argue, you don't debate, you twist people's words, resort to straw man tactics, and just act as though you're right in everything, which can have a certain persuasiveness but isn't argument.
I can't really engage with assertions like that, save to say that I don't think my posting history supports you.


RobertSnozers wrote:Morally? Yawn. Miliband met Netanyahu. And as for your man David M, he had clean hands, did he? Hypocrite.
And whatabout?

And no, I don't equate meeting Netanyahu with being paid by Iranian propaganda TV or supporting the IRA. I think to do so is to lose your moral compass.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

AngryAsWell wrote:Owen Bennett ‏@owenjbennett 28m28 minutes ago
This has just been retweeted by Ukip's Immigration Spokesman and party treasurer @JohnBickleyUKIP

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think UKIP may have gone a step to far with this one.
UKIP people have been in bother before about retweeting that racist prick's stuff.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nline.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

The UK is being stolen: 4 reasons we are still angry about Brexit

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RobertSnozers wrote:
You're changing the terms of what you said, which is another one of your tiresomely mendacious tactics. Give it up, the gas flames a flickering. You were busted. I explained to you at the time why you were wrong. I should mention that I am an aviation journalist.
Remarkable. So as an aviation journalist, your claim, seriously, is that the pace of change in civil aviation development from 1969-2017 is as fast as 1903-1969? (The original claim was about the pace of technological change: you can use the search facility to find it).

I think that is patently false. I'd like a link to an article supporting what seems to me to be an obviously preposterous claim. For the avoidance of doubt, we're talking about relative change. Articles about new technologies in general not cutting it.
RobertSnozers wrote:You were also offensively wrong about the pressure the NHS is under, declaring it to be a short term 'uptick' over the coldest week and not the reality which is sustained demand on an unprecedented level coinciding with years of flat funding and disruptive reorganisation leading to record numbers of cancelled operations and failure to meet basic targets for months.
SpinningHugo wrote:Again, I don't accept that. Clearly the NHS is being underfunded and more should be spent per capita as the population ages. But to deny, as you do, that there are pinch points in the year, in particular in January where we see a combination of A&E demand from people who postpone seeking help over Xmas, and the general upswing in accidents/illness over winter is, I am afraid, a bit daft. Nobody thinks demand, and hence the pressure, remains the same all year round.
You just can't help yourself, can you? When did I deny that there were pinch points? Except that now they are points when an already at- or beyond-capacity NHS goes into crisis. You can stop lecturing me, I worked in NHS managment for 15 years. Your 'argument' was that things were squeaky over Christmas and now they're fine, which is bullshit, and now you're gaslighting again. These people deserve better.

An aviation journalist and an NHS manager. What a range of talents.

My claim, again you can go back and search it if you like, was that once January was past the worst was over for the government. Which, as you accept the point about pinch points, is just true.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sun 12 Feb, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Thanks for responding - some (personal) responses on your responses below.
SpinningHugo wrote: The same as most others. To engage with other people about topical political questions. Far from not respecting people here, I am here because I do respect you, but am interested in why others see the world so differently from me. Sounds familiar.

Some reasons I'm not here

1. To reinforce the prejudices most of us share. What is the point of my posting "Tory cuts to X are really bad for those affected." Of course they are. How does that carry forward our understanding of anything? Tend to agree (somewhat)

2. To post links to stories I can see on the frontpage of the Guardian or through a quick perusal of twitter. I post links to things that are interesting that are more obscure. The board tends to get cluttered up with trivial stuff we've all seen, always reinforcing one point of view. Unecessary and condescending.

I came back in 2016, after a hiatus, to try and understand why some people were still backing Corbyn, despite the overwhelming evidence of catastrophe. What would lead people I respected to double down on such an obviously daft choice? TBH, I am not much the wiser. There is a strain of the left that doesn't mind losing, as it doesn't involve any of the unpleasant compromises winning requires. Partly agree but this is a tricky area. In the past have been faced with that question: do we want to win? and what is the line that we will not cross to do so? I think there has to be a line (but perhaps a very different one from the ones we tend to draw)

What do I think about so many people wanting me to leave? I don't care very much. I am not, despite the constant allegations, a troll of any kind, concern or otherwise. I actually believe what I post. Always? or some of the time? I am 'of the left' have always voted Labour, but can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken? Why morally, specifically?

If I were cynical, and/or disingenuous? I'd suggest one reason for departures is that people don't like confessing to error. Now, I am not claiming I make no mistakes. Here are three I have made over the last 2 years

1. The polls immediately before the 2015 election convinced me Labour would be in government. I was wrong.

2. I thought it completely improbably people would vote for Brexit. I was wrong. What was the evidence there?

3. Despite some scepticism on here, I do know about the law, and know what the right result to the Miller case should have been. I thought the UKSC would agree. That a majority did not is inexplicable to me. Could it be that you don't know as much about the law as you think? ("the law", apart from anything else, being fundamentally open to interpretation)

But, if you argue at length about, say, Jeremy Corbyn, or whether Labour voting for Brexit would be for the best, and it then looks like you're just obviously wrong, the temptation is to leave. Labour has disgraced itself over Brexit and if you put what is good for the poor over loyalty to a particular party, you shouldn't vote Labour. But are the Greens any better?

More generally, who likes having their beliefs or assumptions challenged? I don't but it is good for me.

I don't swear, I don't insult. The worst personal thing I've said is repeatedly calling AK over optimistic. But, if I am not breaking the rules, I don't see why I should leave just for forcefully expressing views others don't agree with.
Me neither - but it's curious how little you engage in the discussion about it. Do you want to change anyone's mind here (if so you'll need to work on your communication style)? Or do you want to learn something (ditto)? Or is it of casual anthropological interest?

Oh no, I have no illusions that anyone will change their minds in the light of a conversation on a message board with an anonymous person. That wasn't in the list of reasons I gave. Who would think that, say Temulkar would be persuaded to think differently by any of us, or that, say, AK will suddenly think "he's right, I need to abandon my commitment to Labour". That would be extremely naive.

It is, I freely admit, all about me. I want to know how people whose instincts are good, this isn't a board of fascists or Ukippers, can think so differently from me. Is there more to this than obvious error?

Perhaps that is the source of the annoyance of others? I am not interested in being friends (I have lots of real world ones) or in sugaring what I say to make it more palatable.
All very plausible, except for that last bit that you couldn't resist. Completely unnecessary, and displays no obvious respect at all.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Over a year ago I wrote about an academy sponsor called the learning Schools Trust with an article called So what happened next?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=693

Well...what happened next was this:

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/two-for-profit ... my-market/
Two academy trusts set up by for-profit providers that have made millions running schools across the globe have ended their sponsorship of English academies.

The Erudition Schools Trust is in liquidation after its three schools in the Midlands were rebrokered to new trusts last year.

Erudition was sponsored by K12, a firm founded by a former Goldman Sachs executive, Ron Packard, and a former US education secretary, William Bennett. It sells virtual schooling in the US.

The trust’s collapse follows that of the Learning Schools Trust, which relinquished control of its four schools in 2015-16 and is also being wound-up.
Not surprised at all.

Now, I wonder whether Gove or Policy Exchange will comment on that?
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken? Why morally, specifically?

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/je ... r-the-ira/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or hosting on Iranian propaganda TV

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and many other, at best, ambiguous positions on, say, Putin and Ukraine over the years.

I am not voting for a party led by the (ex-) Chair of the Stop the War (sic) Coalition.

All the kind of things we had out in 2015 when it looked like he was about to win.


And yeah, I do know about the law. You'll just have to take my word for that.
Evidence?
(just kidding, I really don't care either way)
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

Misogynist' David Davis must say sorry over sexist texts about Diane Abbott, Labour demands as it's revealed the Brexit Secretary joked he would have to be 'blind' to hug her

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4YVXhWSlk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

RogerOThornhill wrote:Over a year ago I wrote about an academy sponsor called the learning Schools Trust with an article called So what happened next?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=693

Well...what happened next was this:

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/two-for-profit ... my-market/
Two academy trusts set up by for-profit providers that have made millions running schools across the globe have ended their sponsorship of English academies.

The Erudition Schools Trust is in liquidation after its three schools in the Midlands were rebrokered to new trusts last year.

Erudition was sponsored by K12, a firm founded by a former Goldman Sachs executive, Ron Packard, and a former US education secretary, William Bennett. It sells virtual schooling in the US.

The trust’s collapse follows that of the Learning Schools Trust, which relinquished control of its four schools in 2015-16 and is also being wound-up.
Not surprised at all.

Now, I wonder whether Gove or Policy Exchange will comment on that?
On the day we finally get a good government someone need to add up whats been squandered and given away and sue them for it.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

One last thought. For now.
If you want to know how and why someone thinks you could consider asking them questions.
And then make at least some kind of cursory effort to understand their answer.
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

Here is a great piece on aircraft and the pace of technological change

http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_f ... _years.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that is what I think
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Sorry AAW (and others).

Genuinely don't want to derail the board - quite the opposite. So will leave it for the moment.
But the gloves are off.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

Bafta-winner Ken Loach slams 'brutal' UK government in acceptance speech

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/0 ... g_share_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

tinyclanger2 wrote:Sorry AAW (and others).

Genuinely don't want to derail the board - quite the opposite. So will leave it for the moment.
But the gloves are off.
Then don't pick on one particular person.
Board has been derailed tonight, that's what they wanted, not sure why (to prove a point perhaps, though what point I've no idea) and that's what they have got. I'm sure they will have lots of pats on the back to each other and Brexit like "We Won!" will be happily shouted. Sad.
No, it's not SH or Rusty or even Open Seas that's driven me away, it's the intolerance for The Other, for anyone who has a different view point.
Have you ever thought you might be dealing with someone on the high functioning autistic spectrum. Communication is often not a strong skill.
Good night and goodbye.
I'll pop in and out to see if the board ever gets any semblance of it's old - friendly - self back.
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by StephenDolan »

Iain Martin. What a dick.


That is all.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Just noticed something connected to a tweet about a paper that an org called Centre for the Study of Market Reform of Education.

I knew there was something which I disliked about them (and not only about the "market reform" bit in their name...guess who inhabits the same offices...
Adam Smith Institute - 23 Great Smith Street, London, SW1P 3DJ ...
https://www.view.co.uk/london/v/adam-smith-institute" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reviews, Offers and images of Adam Smith Institute, Westminster, London,SW1P 3DJ | View.

Contact | Centre for the Study of Market Reform of Education | CMRE
http://www.cmre.org.uk/contact" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We are located at 23 Great Smith Street, London SW1P 3DJ, minutes walk from Westminster station. Map. Support us. CMRE is a not-for-profit enterprise. It is not ...
Well I never...
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Here is a great piece on aircraft and the pace of technological change

http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_f ... _years.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that is what I think
It uses technical phrases like 'wiggling in the wings', I see. It isn't very good. It is written by someone with no particular knowledge of aviation. They have made the same mistake you did, which is to look at a 707 and an A350XWB and because they have the same basic configuration you think there hasn't been any advance, which is just not how it works. It's not even primarily about aviation, but web design.

Wrong.

Again nobody claims there have been no advances. The claim is about pace of change.

The claim is that the advances are at a much slower pace than before.

I await your articles on the increased pace of change in civil aviation from 1969 onwards with interest. You must have lots of them at your fingertips, being an aviation journalist.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

StephenDolan wrote:Iain Martin. What a dick.


That is all.
Agree entirely.
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -childcare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Parents on zero-hour contracts 'could miss out on free childcare'
Government confirms that half of families receiving existing 15 hours of free childcare will not qualify for new 30-hour scheme
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

AAW you miss the point entirely. And if you read my comments you will notice that I am NOT "picking" on one person. However, since so many people have brought up the issue of SH it seemed embarrassing to leave it unexamined for any longer. So I examined it. And he responded.

Neither of us seem unduly disturbed by the experience and both of us are still here.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

I have never found using an apology from one person as ammunition for attack by another as cricket, by the way.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA
HindleA
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by HindleA »

Steve Richards on Harold Wilson


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... old-wilson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Tim Loughton proving once again that he is an utter dick.
Tim Loughton Verified account
‏@timloughton

Just had a great night at the BAFTAS apart from the usual predictable drivel from Ken Loach in his own La La Land
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Lest we forget...

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/07/andrea-le ... e-5993055/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That went well...
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Conservative leadership candidate Andrea Leadsom has some really lively supporters.
OK, they’re not that lively but at least they were somewhat enthusiastic when they chanted her name today.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/07/andrea-le ... z4YW7wmFGC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... r-cathedra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bell-ringer survives freak accident at Worcester Cathedral
Ian Bowman who was ringing in cathedral tower was flipped upside down and trapped 80ft up after catching his foot in a rope
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by HindleA »

"Extreme Sport"
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-he ... r-38949308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
seems he has been winched to safety
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by Lost Soul »

Re the aviation disagreement.
It seemed to me, as an observer or reader, that one person was talking about the experience of air travel being much the same. From the point of view of the passenger sitting in the seat. The other was making the point of huge technical advances.
A lot of rows are like that. Entrenched positions without actually listening. No single person is at fault. But it seems a number of strong personalities are able to wind themselves up into a proper old froth over misinterpreting meanings for purpose.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Talking of air travel...I used to suffer from severe earache and temporary loss of hearing in the descent years ago....but now...nothing. Absolutely fine.

There you go - that's what's improved for me as a passenger. There's probably a technical explanation for this...
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Lost Soul wrote:Re the aviation disagreement.
It seemed to me, as an observer or reader, that one person was talking about the experience of air travel being much the same. From the point of view of the passenger sitting in the seat. The other was making the point of huge technical advances.
A lot of rows are like that. Entrenched positions without actually listening. No single person is at fault. But it seems a number of strong personalities are able to wind themselves up into a proper old froth over misinterpreting meanings for purpose.
Excellent observation. Perhaps the voice of reason approach could help in these situations. It's easy to misread stuff, even face to face, never mind via the written word with people we don't know. A more neutral observer (in a particular spat) can help flag when people are talking at cross purposes. Could work.
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by pk1 »

Crumbs, you've all had a tense day here today - glad I missed it !

@Roger re Tim Loughton. Be very glad he's not your MP. Alas, he's mine & whilst he's good on the issue of child abuse, on others he's just a twit. I can guarantee he'd be in the queue to vote Bercow out of his post.
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Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

Post by Sky'sGoneOut »

This morning I lay in bed listening to the radio, Pienaars politics on Radio 5.

Anyway there was a Corbyn functionary on talking about how they were going to win in Stoke and John Pienaar kept badgering him about what would happen if Corbyn wasn't around anymore. Like if he died of a tropical disease or something. So this functionary said there were others in the Labour party who could fill his boots under those circumstances. That was it. A daft conversation.

Then less than an hour later on the Guardian and the BBC news it's reported that Corbyn campaign manager says there are plenty of others in the Labour party who could lead the party.

Now I'm no fan of Corbyn but this was just outright bollocks. It was misrepresentation and it was shit stirring. From our national broadcaster and our sole left wing broadsheet. Once again.
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