Tuesday 25 April 2017

[AnatolyKasparov]

Interesting posts from almost everyone this am, good stuff.

Any thoughts on the 'Tory revival' in Scotland, cos I don't really get it? Unionists don't vote for the SNP, obvs, but what logic would lead them to vote Tory? Brexit logic I suppose, but there's a strong possibility that independence would follow, sooner or later? Are potential Tory voters just closing their eyes to that?

The Scottish Tories have the most effective leader anywhere in the UK. Leadership matters. She has quite brilliantly detoxified them.

The Tories are also benefiting from the collapse of Ukips. Ukips strength has disguised how poorly Labour were doing because they ate into the Tory vote.

UKIP have never been much of a thing in Scotland (scraped one MEP there at their 2014 peak)

[howsillyofme1]

Interesting posts from almost everyone this am, good stuff.

Any thoughts on the 'Tory revival' in Scotland, cos I don't really get it? Unionists don't vote for the SNP, obvs, but what logic would lead them to vote Tory? Brexit logic I suppose, but there's a strong possibility that independence would follow, sooner or later? Are potential Tory voters just closing their eyes to that?

The Scottish Tories have the most effective leader anywhere in the UK. Leadership matters. She has quite brilliantly detoxified them.

The Tories are also benefiting from the collapse of Ukips. Ukips strength has disguised how poorly Labour were doing because they ate into the Tory vote.

You don't follow Scottish politics much I take it?

She has been getting a battering over the rape child benfit question and is getting into more and more difficulty over the Tory policies coming out of London

She has gained votes because she has wrapped herself in the Union Jack and that appeals to a proportion of people up there

The SLP shambles has helped her too

Not a nice person at all

I think Sturgeon will have something to say about being most effective leader too......she has delivered pretty spectacular election results

Are you sure you aren't a Tory? Why all this bigging up of her?

[frightful_oik]

SH praising Tories and dissing Lab. You could be forgiven for thinking he's a Tory.

[SpinningHugo]

Interesting posts from almost everyone this am, good stuff.

Any thoughts on the 'Tory revival' in Scotland, cos I don't really get it? Unionists don't vote for the SNP, obvs, but what logic would lead them to vote Tory? Brexit logic I suppose, but there's a strong possibility that independence would follow, sooner or later? Are potential Tory voters just closing their eyes to that?

The Scottish Tories have the most effective leader anywhere in the UK. Leadership matters. She has quite brilliantly detoxified them.

The Tories are also benefiting from the collapse of Ukips. Ukips strength has disguised how poorly Labour were doing because they ate into the Tory vote.

UKIP have never been much of a thing in Scotland (scraped one MEP there at their 2014 peak)

True, they got a couple of percent in 2015 (I confess I'd thought it closer to 5 when I typed).

The Labour collapse in Scotland since 2015 looks worse than in England and Wales, looking at the polls.

Ironically, the idiocy of Brexit might lead some to realise the importance of the free trade union Scotland has benefited most from.

Labour is being squeezed on independence in the same way it is squeezed on Brexit. Neither one thing nor the other.

Almost my entire life has been a story of decline for the Tories in Scotland and Wales. But they are coming back, astonishing times.

[StephenDolan]

We want a hard Brexit. So we can lead the world in preventing tourism.

Round up the tourists!

[seeingclearly]

If it was all about policy then surely the Tories would get hammered as their policies are shit?

I think you're ignoring the consistent context that these discussions happen in outside of forums like this. The conservative's policies will not be picked over by the press, their economic failures will not be discussed, their inconsistencies will be left as they are, the hurt and damage done to people will be ignored.

But Labour will be constantly shown up on anything however real or unreal it is. The thing today about the speaker still having a 'remain' sticker on his iPad case is a good example - so fucking what, but it's been a high ranking story through the morning as an example of Labour being in a mess about leaving, with an impression that the conservatives being united, despite having a leadership who campaigned to remain.

Before the last election which picture had more political clout - George Osborne sitting with his arm around a prostitute with a line of white powder chopped out on a table in front of them, or Ed Miliband eating a sandwich. And which picture did everyone see?

Saying 'their policies are shit' is true and pointless. I have no idea what the answer is - in fact I think there is no answer and we're screwed, and the best we can do is point at the spite and hate people spew on the right and call them on it - but in the context of the british media climate Corbyn's labour party is a doll with 'kick me' written on it. But then Cooper's labour party, or Burnham's, or Lewis' would be as well unless it was dancing the papers' dance. Just as one Miliband instead of the other wouldn't have meant victory, it would have meant 'war criminal', so a different leader now would just be a different flavour of 'look how shit labour are'.

Elections in the last few years have often been very very strange but i would much rather be shocked and surprised afterwards in a good way than to pretend to believe even for a moment that things are going to be okay.

I think few people have any false hope on this election. But will come out fighting anyway. We were screwed the day Clegg and Cameron did their rose garden moment in 2010. It was a coup then, but nobody would admit it. Last week was phase 2 of that coup, the last 10 months have been disturbing, and, yes, very strange. When theres nothing left to lose people will fight, but do enough know there is nothing to lose?

What. makes me worry is the whole passivity of it, not fighting against what they know is bad government, except those who you would expect to.... I never ever hear anyone defend it. But few raise a voice against it. That is odd. Like that weird poll that mentions Le Pen.... people don't know???

[AnatolyKasparov]

Of course MLP is a favourite of the right wing press, and judging by BBC coverage in particular you could have been forgiven for thinking nobody else was standing.

Given that and the fact one of the few things people might know about him is that he is pro-EU, Macron "winning" that poll even narrowly wasn't so bad.

[HindleA]

Hailstonemaggedon here at the moment.

[Willow904]

Of course MLP is a favourite of the right wing press, and judging by BBC coverage in particular you could have been forgiven for thinking nobody else was standing.

Given that and the fact one of the few things people might know about him is that he is pro-EU, Macron "winning" that poll even narrowly wasn't so bad.

I actually did a Yougov poll which asked that question - which would be better for the UK, Macron or Le Pen winning. In a way it was a bit difficult to answer. Clearly Macron is better for stability and France and of the two I would prefer him myself, but that's not the question, is it? The question is would he be better for an idiotic Brexiting UK? Then it's not such an easy answer. He may well be more keen to block any accommodations for the UK on freedom of movement, for instance. Le Pen could well be better for Theresa May's upcoming EU negotiations. In the longer term, though, a prosperous Eurozone is in the UK's best interests, regardless of our trade arrangements, so ultimately Macron should still be the preferred choice, even if you are a keen Brexiter. Le Pen is only really the choice of those who want to see the EU crash and burn and everyone in it. People like Donald Trump. And the Daily Mail. And anyone else with money stashed in tax havens that the EU wants to shine a light on.

[seeingclearly]

Interesting posts from almost everyone this am, good stuff.

Any thoughts on the 'Tory revival' in Scotland, cos I don't really get it? Unionists don't vote for the SNP, obvs, but what logic would lead them to vote Tory? Brexit logic I suppose, but there's a strong possibility that independence would follow, sooner or later? Are potential Tory voters just closing their eyes to that?

I believe that the SNP promise is unravelling under the reality. Having comprehensively trashed Labour where are voters going? Not to UKIP for sure, why would they. Works in tory favour, you would almost think they planned it.

The list I saw a few days ago of exactly what is going wrong was quite long. And quite anti-Sturgeon. One of the issues was effectively having a single party state. So not being able to make any headway in gaining support for anything other than party line. They pinned themselves into a corner. There are dangers in too high a majority too, it would seem. Anything goes wrong, theres noone else to blame.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Almost my entire life has been a story of decline for the Tories in Scotland and Wales. But they are coming back, astonishing times.

Don't know how old you are, but the Tories had a major surge in Wales under Thatcher that subsequently dissipated.

Scotland is admittedly more of a steady decline since the 1960s - until the referendum.

[seeingclearly]

Almost my entire life has been a story of decline for the Tories in Scotland and Wales. But they are coming back, astonishing times.

Don't sound so fucking gleeful.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Sadly, its the only way that SH knows. No wonder they "love" Mandy.

[HindleA]

Personally preferred Bunty,but each to their own.

[howsillyofme1]

I wonder what the motivation of Hugo has been today....gleeful reporting and over-egging of Tory position (not that it is required in some areas)?

I understand the motivation of all the posters on here.....despite having 'occasional' disagreements but I really struggle to look past the obvious conclusions......

[seeingclearly]

Nationalism seems to have been the tory vehicle to power and maintaining it. A good enough reason to stand firm against it, and all it represents. Never trusted that Cameron offered those two votes as a pro EU pro UK person. As with almost everything he said one thing and the result was another. Never felt it was credible. Now we have May whose utter turnaround adds weight to that. There is nothing they won't destroy to stay there. And that's another reason to oppose them. They'll never go unless we ignore the lines they have set.

[SpinningHugo]

Sadly, its the only way that SH knows. No wonder they "love" Mandy.

I am not sure what to "feel".

Brexit is the issue of our times, upon which everything else depends, and a Tory landslide is going to be a disaster for that. As Blair explained, a big majority in Parliament for Hard Brexit is a bad thing.

That said, Labour's opposition has been so entirely feeble and token, that I wonder whether it will make any difference. I am not a Labour member or supporter now, and so don't really care. I like some Labour MPs (eg Mary Creagh) and dislike others (eg Keir Starmer) mainly based on how honest I think they have been with regard to Brexit.

For the poor and vulnerable, five more years of Tory government is a disaster, but then the Tories were always going to win in 2020 anyway, and they'll win in 2022 now.

But, if there is any silver lining, the aftermath of this election should surely see the rearrangement of the left, one way or another. Either Corbyn goes immediately, and Labour starts its long road back under a Kinnock figure. Or Corbyn clings on and Labour accelerates towards complete irrelevance. Either way, the change that was needed will come, and the agonising drift of there being no opposition can come to an end. Labour doing 'ok' might be the worst outcome possible.

So, being optimistic, this election may have brought 2020 forward to 2017, enabling the left to start the recovery from crushing defeat earlier than it otherwise would have done. Best to get the Corbyn experiment over quickly, and show the members what it results in.

Like removing a plaster, one quick shock, though painful, may be better than the slow drawn out agony we had been going through.

[seeingclearly]

Hailstonemaggedon here at the moment.

Did it pass?

Looming skies here.

[HindleA]

Quick but brutal,now sunny,clear.

[howsillyofme1]

I know I shall regret this....

so then Hugo from all your posts today you clearly support a Tory victory under May than a Labour one under Corbyn......


Can you answer my question then by what measure is May your preferred option and what specifically in the Tory policies do you like that would encourage you to support them over Labour?

As a secondary question, you clearly have a love of Ruth Davidson - which of her policies do you think justify the ringing endorsement you gave earlier?

[seeingclearly]

If you don't care about Labour, why keep banging on about it? As a self professed Green why aren't you talking about them?

[seeingclearly]

Quick but brutal,now sunny,clear.

Sudden sleety prelude here. With thunder.
Very very dark.

[HindleA]

Taking great pleasure in the misfortune/sadness in others with a particular penchant for targeted deliberate kicking when known down -first two words,is the action of a grade one arse.

[SpinningHugo]

I know I shall regret this....

so then Hugo from all your posts today you clearly support a Tory victory under May than a Labour one under Corbyn......


Can you answer my question then by what measure is May your preferred option and what specifically in the Tory policies do you like that would encourage you to support them over Labour?

As a secondary question, you clearly have a love of Ruth Davidson - which of her policies do you think justify the ringing endorsement you gave earlier?

No I don't really. I think on balance a Corbyn victory would be better as Labour would be better on Brexit even under him. He is a Lexiter, but it is not one of the core features of his being. A large majority of the PLP are perfectly sensible, and although I think Corbyn personally holds stupid views, I'd hope that the party could control him, or just remove him if he did something particularly stupid.

It will never happen though, so it is just a hypothetical. Even you know Labour is headed for a bad defeat.

I think Ruth Davidson is a very able politician. Ability as a politician (ie in appealing to the public, creating a persona) is a different skill from, say, making the right choices in government, or even being right. Ken Livingstone had it too, before he went mad and became obsessed with Jews and Hitler. Blair had it. Ken Clarke has it. It isn't really about where you are on the political spectrum.

She has personal advantages. She is funny, and a lesbian. That helps defuse the Tories' image as the nasty party in Scotland. They are also not in power in Holyrood, and a majority of people still favour the union. She has done a good job in accelerating Labour's decline as the main opposition.

So, a question back, on THAT measure, is there any other current leader who has shown the same degree of skill? Lucas maybe?

[SpinningHugo]

You talk about us as though we are children, do you realise that? Where do you think that approach will get you?

Is there an award at the end of the year I'll be missing out on? "Most popular on FtN" or somesuch?

[55DegreesNorth]

Afternoon, folks,

Taking great pleasure in the misfortune/sadness in others with a particular penchant for targeted deliberate kicking when known down -first two words,is the action of a grade one arse.

Speaking of arses, did anyone listen to the outrageous interview on R5L a few minutes ago? BBC hack spent ages asking a Libdem about whether, as a Christian, he felt Gay sex is a sin. Repeatedly referred back to Farrons attempts to avoid answering this question directly, and kept asking the question over and over again. I thought it was intrusive, inappropriate and deeply cynical (has anyone asked May?).
Clearly, the Tories have instructed their BBC stooges to undermine the Libdems. I was disgusted, even as someone who despises the libdems and doesn't care what consenting adults do with their genitalia. I think the Beeb will get a kicking over this.

[howsillyofme1]

I know WoS are not universally popular to say the least but this shows the Tories for what they are - despite apparently being led by the star of the moment

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faces-of-shame/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[seeingclearly]

Like removing a plaster, one quick shock, though painful, may be better than the slow drawn out agony we had been going through.

Sticking plaster not what is needed, the whole country is like a festering sore. It doesn't need covering up. The antithesis of 'making things better'. So what about the slow drawn out agony that ordinary people are going through, which will escalate into the forseeable under your bizarre vision of what we need?

[SpinningHugo]

You talk about us as though we are children, do you realise that? Where do you think that approach will get you?

Is there an award at the end of the year I'll be missing out on? "Most popular on FtN" or somesuch?

And now goading. That's not pretty.

Serious question. What do you think your condescending tone achieves? I presume you actually think you are persuading people, unless your approach is simply to poison this particular well. I have an idea which it is, but the mods seem to disagree or you'd have been booted out a long time ago.

I like talking about politics. I find it a fascinating topic. I am sure that is the motive of most here, no? Are you really in the business of proselytising? If you are, I'd suggest you'll meet with no success on this board.

There are often very good links posted, and I try to add a few off the beaten track (ie not on the frontpage of the Graun which is pointless).

I came back on the board to try and ascertain why people still supported Corbyn last year. I like to try and understand other people's views, especially when I don't understand how they could hold them and where they are widespread. I still don't really get it to be honest, but that is a failure of imagination on my part no doubt. Defenders have gone quieter outside the hardcore.

I was and am infuriated by Brexit, and find the apologists for it on the left and right to be utterly disgraceful, especially where they should know better. I don't think you're a disgrace, FWIIW.

[seeingclearly]

Afternoon, folks,

Taking great pleasure in the misfortune/sadness in others with a particular penchant for targeted deliberate kicking when known down -first two words,is the action of a grade one arse.

Speaking of arses, did anyone listen to the outrageous interview on R5L a few minutes ago? BBC hack spent ages asking a Libdem about whether, as a Christian, he felt Gay sex is a sin. Repeatedly referred back to Farrons attempts to avoid answering this question directly, and kept asking the question over and over again. I thought it was intrusive, inappropriate and deeply cynical (has anyone asked May?).
Clearly, the Tories have instructed their BBC stooges to undermine the Libdems. I was disgusted, even as someone who despises the libdems and doesn't care what consenting adults do with their genitalia. I think the Beeb will get a kicking over this.

But more likely they won't because tomorrow or sooner will come another piece of even greater nastiness. It was always clear how this election will be fought. I hope it becomes their downfall.

[Willow904]

Afternoon, folks,

Taking great pleasure in the misfortune/sadness in others with a particular penchant for targeted deliberate kicking when known down -first two words,is the action of a grade one arse.

Speaking of arses, did anyone listen to the outrageous interview on R5L a few minutes ago? BBC hack spent ages asking a Libdem about whether, as a Christian, he felt Gay sex is a sin. Repeatedly referred back to Farrons attempts to avoid answering this question directly, and kept asking the question over and over again. I thought it was intrusive, inappropriate and deeply cynical (has anyone asked May?).
Clearly, the Tories have instructed their BBC stooges to undermine the Libdems. I was disgusted, even as someone who despises the libdems and doesn't care what consenting adults do with their genitalia. I think the Beeb will get a kicking over this.

But more likely they won't because tomorrow or sooner will come another piece of even greater nastiness. It was always clear how this election will be fought. I hope it becomes their downfall.

Tories hate the BBC with the blind passion that only comes with knowing its very existence is a slap in the face to all they hold dear. It's successful socialism in action. They may have hi-jacked the political news output with their stooges, but this is as much a cultural reflection of internships and "jobs for boys" across the political journalism sector from which the BBC must necessarily recruit as much as anything else. Every time I get fed up with BBC political bias, I just remind myself of high quality advert free children's tv and remember why Tories hate it so much and why it's worth hanging onto, if only to get up their Tory toff noses alone.

[NonOxCol]

Afternoon, folks,

Taking great pleasure in the misfortune/sadness in others with a particular penchant for targeted deliberate kicking when known down -first two words,is the action of a grade one arse.

Speaking of arses, did anyone listen to the outrageous interview on R5L a few minutes ago? BBC hack spent ages asking a Libdem about whether, as a Christian, he felt Gay sex is a sin. Repeatedly referred back to Farrons attempts to avoid answering this question directly, and kept asking the question over and over again. I thought it was intrusive, inappropriate and deeply cynical (has anyone asked May?).
Clearly, the Tories have instructed their BBC stooges to undermine the Libdems. I was disgusted, even as someone who despises the libdems and doesn't care what consenting adults do with their genitalia. I think the Beeb will get a kicking over this.

I think the same interview was on BBC TV just now. It was Eleanor Garnier. She is the daughter of a Tory MP. No, really. That is how far gone they are.

It followed Kuenssberg fawning over May in Wales, and finding the usual quota of lifelong Labour voters who will or might vote Tory; and the appalling Pienaar covering Labour's Brexit policy in his usual even-handed manner.

Nothing will be done. No kicking. It is so soul-destroying to watch, night after night.

[SpinningHugo]

Kantar public? A new polling name for me

http://uk.kantar.com/ge2017/2017/conser ... k-polling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Headline is

Con 46% Lab 24% LD 11% Ukip 8% Green 4%. Fieldwork April 20th-24th

So much in accordance with the others.

[SpinningHugo]

Interesting on whether UNS is a reliable guide (answer is no)

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tt-johnson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Conservative party ignored police requests to hand over internal bullying report

[PorFavor]

Kim Jong-May received with rapture and adulation in Bridgend

John Crace (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n-bridgend

Edited to add

Too true to be a laughing matter, I feel. (And I get the impression that the author isn't entirely at ease.)

[AnatolyKasparov]

Kantar TNS used to poll fairly regularly as TNS/BMRB.

[Willow904]

From the G.

There are now some key differences between the two parties: Labour would unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, it would not rule out staying in the customs union, and it would commit to matching not just existing EU laws guaranteeing worker rights and environmental standards, but future EU laws covering these areas too. But, like May, Labour wants to be able to obtain the best possible access to the single market while no longer accepting free movement.

Keir Starmer's assurance Labour would seek to keep the UK in the Customs Union, that has just about been keeping me onside, has been downgraded to "not ruling it out"!

As for ruling out freedom of movement....

Theresa May announced the UK would leave the single market at the beginning of the year and by April Labour has it in their manifesto

From the moment Corbyn gave his speech post EU ref, I knew Labour under his leadership was not going to represent my views on Brexit in the coming months, that he wasn't going to lift a finger to try stop this disaster, to at least point out the negatives of the Tories chosen path. Nope, he's just waving hard Brexit through as fast as he can, eager to get us out of Europe as quickly and completely as possible.



As the lesser of 2 evils, doubtless I will have to vote for this shit, but I am seriously pissed off that my vote for Labour will now be counted as a mandate for hard Brexit

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-runs-dry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Hummus shortages after shops remove dip from sale over 'taste issues'
Shoppers unhappy after supermarkets pull stocks from shelves following complaints of metallic taste

[AnatolyKasparov]

From the G.

There are now some key differences between the two parties: Labour would unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, it would not rule out staying in the customs union, and it would commit to matching not just existing EU laws guaranteeing worker rights and environmental standards, but future EU laws covering these areas too. But, like May, Labour wants to be able to obtain the best possible access to the single market while no longer accepting free movement.

Keir Starmer's assurance Labour would seek to keep the UK in the Customs Union, that has just about been keeping me onside, has been downgraded to "not ruling it out"!

None of that other stuff is any good to you then?

I think, quite frankly, that Labour backing freedom of movement unequivocally was never a runner - given how so many of their own MPs themselves oppose it.

[PorFavor]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-runs-dry


Hummus shortages after shops remove dip from sale over 'taste issues'
Shoppers unhappy after supermarkets pull stocks from shelves following complaints of metallic taste

I've never seen the attraction of eating leaf mould. Still, no accounting for taste . . .

[HindleA]

Travel agents arrests in Leeds,Birmingham,London according.to the counter tourism squad.
(Blame SD)

[RogerOThornhill]

Ian Katz‏Verified account
@iankatz1000

Following
More
Coming up tonight, Cameron's former policy chief Camilla Cavendish argues we need a new inheritance tax to pay for social care #newsnight

"OMG! IT'S A DEATH TAX!!!"

[citizenJA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-runs-dry


Hummus shortages after shops remove dip from sale over 'taste issues'
Shoppers unhappy after supermarkets pull stocks from shelves following complaints of metallic taste

I've never seen the attraction of eating leaf mould. Still, no accounting for taste . . .

I adore leaf mould.

[HindleA]

Civil war breaks out over leaf mould position.

[citizenJA]

Civil war breaks out over leaf mould position.

We can avoid an escalation of hostilities over leaf mould
I'll keep the leaf mould to myself, it's not a problem
I'd go so far as to never eat leaf mould again if it meant peace

[Willow904]

From the G.

There are now some key differences between the two parties: Labour would unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, it would not rule out staying in the customs union, and it would commit to matching not just existing EU laws guaranteeing worker rights and environmental standards, but future EU laws covering these areas too. But, like May, Labour wants to be able to obtain the best possible access to the single market while no longer accepting free movement.

Keir Starmer's assurance Labour would seek to keep the UK in the Customs Union, that has just about been keeping me onside, has been downgraded to "not ruling it out"!

None of that other stuff is any good to you then?

I think, quite frankly, that Labour backing freedom of movement unequivocally was never a runner - given how so many of their own MPs themselves oppose it.

Just because Labour doesn't feel able to positively endorse freedom of movement, it doesn't mean they have to RULE IT OUT.
This is a negotiation, but by ruling out freedom of movement you are guaranteeing which way the negotiation is going to go and that's hard Brexit.
In terms of Brexit, the other things are meaningless as they won't be an integral part of our new contract with the EU. They're just domestic policy, given and taken away at the whim of a UK government. In terms of Brexit, Labour are offering a relationship that would allow the Tories the freedom to do all the things they want to do now, whenever they are in power. And by ruling freedom of movement out, Labour are saying that if May were to u-turn and strike a good deal that includes free movement of people, Labour would oppose it.
It's very clear "leave" voters are more important to Labour than remain voters and it should surely come as no surprise that remain voters like me are getting more than a little hacked off as a result.
If you think we are better off out of the single market, if you don't want Spanish dentists coming over here to work for the NHS or polish drivers to drive our buses or English students studying in Amsterdam, then fine, but if not why defend this crap? Why not just call it as it is, Labour too scared of losing its heartlands leave voters to stand up for its pro-EU principles. Because when I joined the Labour party, it was a pro-EU party, refusing to hold an in/out referendum because it wasn't in the country's interests, which it wasn't and isn't. Should I apologise for still having the same views?

[TechnicalEphemera]

Yes, Kinnock. He was a rip-roaring success, wasn't he? Lost two elections despite an increasingly unpopular PM and support swinging away from the SDP after 1983. Proof positive that the Tory-supporting press will destroy any Labour leader who doesn't sign up, wholesale, to their agenda, regardless of whether or not they are perceived to be a 'moderniser'.

Yes Kinnock was a rip-roaring success, I assume you are old enough to remember what a shambles Labour was in 1983 and that going into 1987 all the expectation was Labour would be replaced by the SDP as the opposition.

Kinnock booted out Militant, routed the SDP, ditched the albatross of CND and made Labour a credible opposition party again. He fell short in 92, in part thanks to the inevitable baggage from his early career but also because the election was in the midst of a recession. He handed over to Smith and Blair became the first (and still only) Labour leader to win a majority since 1966. We went on to have the best three governments I have ever lived under, and saved the NHS.

I call that a rip-roaring success.

Corbyn by contrast has taken a competitive political party and via utterly inept leadership has reduced it to an even worse state than 1983 in just two years. Not only that after inflicting a crushing Tory majority on the country all the signs are he is plotting to stay as leader.

A legion of books in hopeless leadership will be written about Corbyn for decades to come.

But no you carry on branding Kinnock a failure.

[Willow904]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -migration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UK should stay inside the EU’s single market and customs union even if this means there can only be limited cuts to immigration after Brexit, the former Labour leader, Ed Miliband, said.

Spelling out his own Brexit strategy, and insisting that tough choices must now be made, Miliband argued that safeguarding the strength of the economy should be the number one priority in negotiations over leaving the EU, rather than a focus on the “undeliverable promise” of cutting immigration to tens of thousands a year.

Just to underline that rejecting freedom of movement outright is a choice, a choice that Labour has made because it is being lead by Jeremy Corbyn, not because it was somehow inevitable.

[citizenJA]

T May said she wanted to, 'prevent tourism'