Saturday 15th and Sunday 16th July 2017

Post by **refitman** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 6:32 am

Morning all.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 7:51 am

Morning,
Tony Blair, on brexit and, um, centre stuff.
http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's lots in it, but strangely, halfway through, it occurred to me that he'd started to sound like Bertie Wooster.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 7:57 am

tinybgoat wrote:Morning,
Tony Blair, on brexit and, um, centre stuff.
http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's lots in it, but strangely, halfway through, it occurred to me that he'd started to sound like Bertie Wooster.

Of course, as Howsilly keeps telling us, he's just a liar as there is no such thing as membership of the single market. Just North Korea style access.

I wish he wrote in sentences.

He obviously doesn't belong in Labour now, but that is true of around a third of the PLP.

I don't know, politics is so sad.

It is obvious what a progressive program for the UK looks like. No Brexit. Huge investment especially in housing to get us off the zlb. Deregulation of building restrictions in the south east. More money for the poorest (which Labour wasn't really promising). No middle class giveaways.

We're a million miles from that. The Bennites have Labour so long as Corbyn's health holds. The Tories are in the grip of the hard Brexiteers. And sectionalism dominates the region's.

Just awful.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 8:18 am

These tweets n Res Foundation data worth your time.

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SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 8:29 am

I also do understand the desire for something more radical than my modest centerist agenda. As I often do, I just went past Grenfell tower on the Westway. That symbolises that desire.

Unfortunately I don't think more radical agendas are sensible, but will do more harm than good. The UK looks like it is going to get poorer whoever is n power.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 8:35 am

Blair was much better n radio 4 than he was in print.

His line that we are being offered "two different versions of the 1960s" is exactly right.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 8:46 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Morning,
Tony Blair, on brexit and, um, centre stuff.
http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's lots in it, but strangely, halfway through, it occurred to me that he'd started to sound like Bertie Wooster.
Of course, as Howsilly keeps telling us, he's just a liar as there is no such thing as membership of the single market. Just North Korea style access.

I wish he wrote in sentences.

He obviously doesn't belong in Labour now, but that is true of around a third of the PLP.

I don't know, politics is so sad.

It is obvious what a progressive program for the UK looks like. No Brexit. Huge investment especially in housing to get us off the zlb. Deregulation of building restrictions in the south east. More money for the poorest (which Labour wasn't really promising). No middle class giveaways.

We're a million miles from that. The Bennites have Labour so long as Corbyn's health holds. The Tories are in the grip of the hard Brexiteers. And sectionalism dominates the region's.

Just awful.

I think you need to go for a lie down

I can't recall calling Blair a liar on this matter but personally I do think he lied around the Iraq time and the Chilcott Report came close to saying that

You though are misrepresenting what I have said about the Single Market an my explanation is fairly simple - disagree if you want but in the absence of doubt here it is again - you have not come up with a decent argument against it, just your normal smug, arrogant statements of fact based on nothing

Firstly, I would just like to say that the Single Market is not a left wing idea - it was promoted most heavily by the Tories and their allies.

However, the economy has developed so to require that having no deal that gives us preferential access will have severe consequences - this is where Corbyn is correct - the outcome he is looking at is 'jobs' not the Single Market per se

The Single Market is not an organisation or club so membership seems to be the wrong word to use. I am a member of the BA Executive Club and I have access/rights to certain things as part of it. Members of other airlines have access too but different to mine. I am not a 'member' of those benefits

For the EU there are differing forms of access

EU Membership gives complete access to all parts of the Single Market and Customs Union and also a seat at the table making the rules

EEA membership gives a pretty much complete level of access as set out in the treaty but doesn't cover the CU - no input in making rules.

Switzerland has again a different access based on bilateral agreements - not the same as the EEA members have though

Canada and other countries have access based on individual treaties

North Korea has access as set out in WTO treaties

The UK can, for ease, just stay in the EEA, or even the EU and the negotiations will be much simpler. This is what the EU would like

There is also the possibility, or likelihood even of some sort of bespoke agreement around the EEA treaty

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement/e ... c-features" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The link above gives some indication of EEA and EFTA and the EU, and nowhere does it say 'membership' when linked to the SM

By saying 'access' then Labour can mean absolutely everything, from EU to North Korea

Honestly, I don't think it is that difficult to understand

The more access you want the more you will pay for it, including signing up to the freedoms and paying cash if that is appropriate. The EU, as the bigger entity, will always get the benefit of getting the better deal which is why leaving the EU is not a good idea at all - and, as I said yesterday, this whole idea may fall apart under its own contradictions

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 9:13 am

Oh and I have never agreed completely with Benn, and some of the things done back in the 80s undermined his objectives but I would rather be a Bennite than a Blairite based on this and reading what Blair wrote today

If a third of the PLP agree with what Blair, and Johnson, have been saying today then perhaps they should make way for those who now support the manifesto. Or, I think is more likely, you are talking shite again

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SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 9:27 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh and I have never agreed completely with Benn, and some of the things done back in the 80s undermined his objectives but I would rather be a Bennite than a Blairite based on this and reading what Blair wrote today

If a third of the PLP agree with what Blair, and Johnson, have been saying today then perhaps they should make way for those who now support the manifesto. Or, I think is more likely, you are talking shite again

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The manifesto was largely fine. Some daft stuff about nationalisation, bad on Brexit, pointless handouts to the middle classes so that it was barely progressive at all. I doubt many Labour MPs had a problem with it.

Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, FIsher, Murray anywhere near power is what most of them will have a problem with, as do I.

It is almost impossible to see how the Tories could make a success of Brexit. May eeded to win big in order to giver her a 5 year breathing space, to get Breit through and to embed some kind of recovery. That just isn't going to work now. I don't see any good path for them.

That puts Corbyn in a strong place to win power. Be fractionally more REmain-y than the Tiories, keep saying how they'd do Brexit better, and promise lots of sops to the middle classes, and he wins.

But, if these people do get hold of power, I think they'll finish Labour.

Politics is just awful in the UK. I wish I'd emigrated to Australia when younger, although I'm personally successful.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 9:33 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh and I have never agreed completely with Benn, and some of the things done back in the 80s undermined his objectives but I would rather be a Bennite than a Blairite based on this and reading what Blair wrote today

If a third of the PLP agree with what Blair, and Johnson, have been saying today then perhaps they should make way for those who now support the manifesto. Or, I think is more likely, you are talking shite again

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The manifesto was largely fine. Some daft stuff about nationalisation, bad on Brexit, pointless handouts to the middle classes so that it was barely progressive at all. I doubt many Labour MPs had a problem with it.

Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, FIsher, Murray anywhere near power is what most of them will have a problem with, as do I.

It is almost impossible to see how the Tories could make a success of Brexit. May eeded to win big in order to giver her a 5 year breathing space, to get Breit through and to embed some kind of recovery. That just isn't going to work now. I don't see any good path for them.

That puts Corbyn in a strong place to win power. Be fractionally more REmain-y than the Tiories, keep saying how they'd do Brexit better, and promise lots of sops to the middle classes, and he wins.

But, if these people do get hold of power, I think they'll finish Labour.

Politics is just awful in the UK. I wish I'd emigrated to Australia when younger, although I'm personally successful.

I think we would all have appreciated it if you had moved too, perhaps the Australians less so......and that last phrase makes you sound like a complete twat by the way

Oh, and here we see another 'Labour is finished' quota to go along with all the others you have posted in the past that all proved to be wrong

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 10:05 am

@howsillyofme

I'm not sure why you are so hung up over people using the phrase "membership of the single market". It's just a shorthand way of describing a relationship with the EEA that involves accepting the basic rules, including the four freedoms, in return for the main benefits.

Anyone who supports ending free movement of people is therefore proposing a relationship that operates from outside the EEA and we wouldn't get all the main benefits. Thus the desire among some to remain "members".

PaulfromYorkshire has made some points about how the single market might change in the future. It probably will if an economy as large as ours is inside the EEA but outside the EU. But personally I feel that we have to remain in the single market first before we can hope to reform it in any way, which means accepting the four freedoms. Something it will be difficult to build consensus for as long as politicians keep giving the impression we can both control immigration and enjoy all the benefits of the single market.

As such, I think Blair is making things worse, not better.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 10:08 am

I should add, if someone representing the EU were saying these things about reform of freedom of movement of people rather than a UK politician, it would obviously different, but even Blair acknowledged the basic principles of the four freedoms would remain, so I think he is probably talking bollocks.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 10:21 am

Hi Willow

On the wording I agree totally

I think you will find it is Hugo who continually posts complete bollocks on this with his 'North Korea has access' nonsense as compared to membership which he maintains is the only correct wording

The EEA agreement would not work for a lot people either as it excludes the CU and other policies that may be of interest to us

We will need EEA plus...in effect the same as we have no. The contradiction in this may lead to a collapse of the whole thing

Labour can still wiggle around it as the focus tends to be on outcomes rather than mechanisms and they have not yet been antagonistic. It is a fine line and a decision will be made soon but at the moment they have walked that line pretty skillfully

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 10:49 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ial-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top 1% of households in UK fully recovered from financial crisis
Rest of British population, especially young and those renting homes, still struggling, says Resolution Foundation

Cameron and Osborne certainly looked after their own, but then we always knew that was what austerity and QE was all about, to protect the assets of the very rich which ordinarily would have been vulnerable to a financial crash, and dump the losses on everyone else instead.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:15 am

Corn n on the EU

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Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:26 am

Fortunately, the only people who actually care what Blair has to say are a bitter cabal of failures and has been's and the odd tyrannical foreign despot who he whores himself to.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:35 am

Willow904 wrote:I should add, if someone representing the EU were saying these things about reform of freedom of movement of people rather than a UK politician, it would obviously different, but even Blair acknowledged the basic principles of the four freedoms would remain, so I think he is probably talking bollocks.

15th Nov 2016

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18981.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The German Chancellor said the EU could not divide its four freedoms — movement of goods, capital, people and services — to allow Britain to restrict immigration while retaining tariff-free access to the market of close to 500 million people.
However, she opened the possibility of discussions on the framework of the free movement of people, which became a significant issue for the 52 per cent of Britons who backed leaving the EU.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:52 am

The real point about Blair is that he couldn't resist gratuitous digs at both Corbyn and an even vaguely left-leaning economic policy. What other reaction could have been expected?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:57 am

tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I should add, if someone representing the EU were saying these things about reform of freedom of movement of people rather than a UK politician, it would obviously different, but even Blair acknowledged the basic principles of the four freedoms would remain, so I think he is probably talking bollocks.
15th Nov 2016

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18981.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The German Chancellor said the EU could not divide its four freedoms — movement of goods, capital, people and services — to allow Britain to restrict immigration while retaining tariff-free access to the market of close to 500 million people.
However, she opened the possibility of discussions on the framework of the free movement of people, which became a significant issue for the 52 per cent of Britons who backed leaving the EU.

Exactly. If you want to restrict immigration you can't get all the benefits of the single market. The way I see it, if you want to get a consensus for staying in the single market it's important to be honest about this. May isn't being honest because she says we are leaving the single market to gain control of our borders but is still saying we can get all the benefits of the single market. I guess I just want to see her called out on this more clearly than we've seen to date.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:57 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Corn n on the EU

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and?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 12:02 pm

1996, yes nothing anywhere has changed since then

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 12:13 pm

Hugo is getting a bit desperate I think but then again it doesn't matter as he is 'personally successful'

The Tories supported by Blair and his lackies through every piece of shit at Corbyn during the election - remind yourself of those front pages in the msm (although those same people seem to be getting themselves in a frenzy over a few inaccurate tweets now which apparently cost Tory MPs their seats)

These people seem to be unable to see that it doesn't work and these predictions of gloom also don't work

It is now up to the opponents of Corbyn to look positively to the future and look for it to apply to the majority of the population not the few.....'For the Many, not the Few' - sure I have heard that somewhere

The problem is not necessarily that there isn't enough money it is that it isn't being productive.......accumulation of wealth by the rich is not what we should be aiming at.....

But a lot of those who are 'personally successful' do want to see the status quo maintained and their exploitation of the rest of us continued

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:11 pm

Willow904 wrote:I should add, if someone representing the EU were saying these things about reform of freedom of movement of people rather than a UK politician, it would obviously different, but even Blair acknowledged the basic principles of the four freedoms would remain, so I think he is probably talking bollocks.

Not on this specific, but in general these debates are on their way.

“The last 10 years have been cruel for Europe,” he said. “We have managed crises but we have lost our way.” He added: “I believe firmly in Europe. But I don’t find the scepticism unjustified.”

He added: “The building of Europe has been weakened by the spread of bureaucracy and by the growing scepticism that comes from that.”

Macron said France and Germany would launch “democratic conventions” across Europe by the end of 2017 to discuss the future of the EU. The conventions would take the form of national debates on the EU and would be aimed at “refounding Europe”. Each member state would be “free to sign on or not, but there is no longer time for quick fixes”.

From the Groan a couple of weeks ago.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:15 pm

What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:16 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The real point about Blair is that he couldn't resist gratuitous digs at both Corbyn and an even vaguely left-leaning economic policy. What other reaction could have been expected?

Sadly, I think he's more or less right.

If and when Corbyn wins, the £ will fall a good 10%, below euro parity. That will fuel inflation still further.

Outside the EU growth will stall badly, and the kind of measures Labour will take, which would have been appropriate in 2010, won't be able to stabilise things. It will turn radical quickly because of the need to do something, anything, to stop the blood loss, and because of who Corbyn and McDonnell are. It will be bloody, and unsuccessful.

Whereas some see hope in Corbyn, all I see is another flavour of despair.

And I can't see a good path now. All we are left with is if onlys. If only Miliband had been a bit more charismatic (or had lost to his brother). If only the referendum had been won. If only the banks had been properly regulated.

Blair is Cassandra, blessed with prophecy, cursed because nobody believes him.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:17 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.

What a very odd thing to suggest. Labour favours Brexit, which is completely at odds with Macron.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:19 pm

I'll make a rare post here. Whether or not it's Blair saying it, I recognize a problem of "Hard Brexit plus Corbyn". The manifesto wasn't my thing overall, but it and the leader did a job better than anybody else could have done, and I'm delighted about that.

Is Corbyn going to come out for a much softer Brexit? I'm worried he won't, or at least not soon enough. If that happens then there's a danger of a diminished Britain getting into a cycle of trying to get more out of business while being less attractive to it. There's going to be a much improved "offer" to business from France, as well as Ireland, Netherlands, Germany etc. If that's the case, then excellent policies like the investment programme (which clinched my vote) have to be far more cautious. To take one of my hobby horses, HS2, I think the second phase could come into doubt with a really bad Brexit.

Like Hugo, I'm concerned with the inner circle too. Don't want a bunch of Milnes sticking up for Putin. The new left- people like Rayner, I'm fine with. But the old hard left, no thanks.

And can somebody speak to some Jews? There are still appalling relations with them. Listen to what they have to say. Don't, as I was told on another board, assume it's all about Israel. As David Baddiel said it's racist to assume that he even cares about Israel.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:20 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.
What a very odd thing to suggest. Labour favours Brexit, which is completely at odds with Macron.

Labour does not "favour Brexit" it favour's democracy.

You so dread Labour making a success of EU policy don't you? It's your worst nightmare isn't it?

Just listen to the mood from key European leaders. Change is coming. And of course if they can, they'll seek to include the Brits.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:22 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.

If we're gone from the EU, we can't drive it. It's Merkel and Macron and Rutte. Even soft Brexit is the UK as fax democracy. It's a rearguard at the moment. It's all it can be.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.
If we're gone from the EU, we can't drive it. It's Merkel and Macron and Rutte. Even soft Brexit is the UK as fax democracy. It's a rearguard at the moment. It's all it can be.

We haven't gone yet Tubby. By a long way.

The door is still open. I ask again, where is the debate about what pro-EU folk actually want the EU to be? Rather than cling onto an EU of the past, which was clearly flawed and which Macron is also committed to leaving behind.

We may surprise ourselves if we start those debates.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:29 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.
What a very odd thing to suggest. Labour favours Brexit, which is completely at odds with Macron.
Labour does not "favour Brexit" it favour's democracy.

You so dread Labour making a success of EU policy don't you? It's your worst nightmare isn't it?

Just listen to the mood from key European leaders. Change is coming. And of course if they can, they'll seek to include the Brits.

They'd prefer to be negotiating with Labour, because they'd be further on with citizen rights but the same problem with freedom of movement remains. Starmer or whoever wouldn't have any aces David David has. Also don't underestimate EU contempt for Corbyn over NATO.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:30 pm

For example, what if the EU provided a common basic income for all adults across the continent?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:32 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.
What a very odd thing to suggest. Labour favours Brexit, which is completely at odds with Macron.
Labour does not "favour Brexit" it favour's democracy.

You so dread Labour making a success of EU policy don't you? It's your worst nightmare isn't it?

Just listen to the mood from key European leaders. Change is coming. And of course if they can, they'll seek to include the Brits.

Depends what you mean by success.

There are two kinds of success for Labour from Brexit.

1. Being ever so slightly more Remain-y than the Tories. That is electorally their sweet spot.

2. Lexiteers like Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne want us out from the EU so that it frees us from all the evil capitalist restrictions they deplore (see also Howsilly above)

But, if by "success" you mean, make things go better for the UK, in particular its poorest, no form of Brexit will actually do that, quite the opposite. So Labour's position will badly hurt the constituency it is supposed to represent.

Which is a bad thing.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:32 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.
If we're gone from the EU, we can't drive it. It's Merkel and Macron and Rutte. Even soft Brexit is the UK as fax democracy. It's a rearguard at the moment. It's all it can be.
We haven't gone yet Tubby. By a long way.

The door is still open. I ask again, where is the debate about what pro-EU folk actually want the EU to be? Rather than cling onto an EU of the past, which was clearly flawed and which Macron is also committed to leaving behind.

We may surprise ourselves if we start those debates.

The EU is fine. Inside it and outside the Euro with opt outs and a rebate was fine. Macron is more about the Eurozone.

The only way we aren't leaving is with a fight. That has to be the focus.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:32 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For example, what if the EU provided a common basic income for all adults across the continent?

Well, we won't be part of that because the two main parties favour Brexit.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:35 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For example, what if the EU provided a common basic income for all adults across the continent?

It can't. Member states wouldnt put the EU in charge of that. And none of them have even done it at national level.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:41 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For example, what if the EU provided a common basic income for all adults across the continent?

It can't. Member states wouldnt put the EU in charge of that. And none of them have even done it at national level.

But without that scale of ambition (not necessarily that policy) the EU is doomed.

The problems have come because we've created, indeed, a Single Market, as Thatcher wanted, that hasn't taken enough care of the more vulnerable.

If as broadly left wing thinkers, plus Hugo, we just say it can't be done it's game over IMHO.

Look at how the EU started among nations that had recently been at war with each other. It took huge will, vision and ambition to make that happen.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:41 pm

The UK has (uniquely) held a referendum, voted to leave and messed everyone about for a year. Even if we stay in, we're not reforming the EU. "We've heard quite enough from you", to channel IDS.

To float the idea of us bringing radical changes won't be credible.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:The UK has (uniquely) held a referendum, voted to leave and messed everyone about for a year. Even if we stay in, we're not reforming the EU. "We've heard quite enough from you", to channel IDS.

To float the idea of us bringing radical changes won't be credible.

In your opinion.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:43 pm

“Emanuel Macron, the new French President, spoke about an open door. I agree,” Mr Verhofstadt said. “But like Alice in Wonderland not all the doors are the same. It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity. That is the door towards Europe.”

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:46 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For example, what if the EU provided a common basic income for all adults across the continent?

It can't. Member states wouldnt put the EU in charge of that. And none of them have even done it at national level.
But without that scale of ambition (not necessarily that policy) the EU is doomed.

The problems have come because we've created, indeed, a Single Market, as Thatcher wanted, that hasn't taken enough care of the more vulnerable.

If as broadly left wing thinkers, plus Hugo, we just say it can't be done it's game over IMHO.

Look at how the EU started among nations that had recently been at war with each other. It took huge will, vision and ambition to make that happen.

Nation states can protect the more vulnerable. The EU doesn't stop them doing it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:51 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
“Emanuel Macron, the new French President, spoke about an open door. I agree,” Mr Verhofstadt said. “But like Alice in Wonderland not all the doors are the same. It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity. That is the door towards Europe.”

He's having a dig at Britain there. He's saying it in the context of us being gone. The chance of giving up our rebate and staying in the EU are pretty much zilch.

When he gives up on the EU Parliament going to Strasbourg, I'll take him seriously. France aren't the least of the awkward squad.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Nation states can protect the more vulnerable. The EU doesn't stop them doing it.

But it does Tubby. Because we don't have anything like enough internal transfer of funds across the continent. It's great to have freedom of movement as a human right, but for many they've had to move to make a decent living, or stay in their home and struggle.

It's hidden in plain sight isn't it? The Single Market is a market, not an area of social justice, or peace, or reduced environmental impact.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:56 pm

OK it's rained for most of St Swithins Day here

but there seems to be a break so I'll get into the garden.

Thanks for the debate Tubby and thanks to others for tolerating the Brexit nerds

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:57 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:The UK has (uniquely) held a referendum, voted to leave and messed everyone about for a year. Even if we stay in, we're not reforming the EU. "We've heard quite enough from you", to channel IDS.

To float the idea of us bringing radical changes won't be credible.
In your opinion.

Sure but political capital is a thing.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 1:57 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:OK it's rained for most of St Swithins Day here but there seems to be a break so I'll get into the garden.

Thanks for the debate Tubby and thanks to others for tolerating the Brexit nerds

Nice to see you!

Post by **refitman** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 2:02 pm

Lovely day at Silverstone, watching the F1 qualification.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 2:05 pm

Nice to see you too, Tubs.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 2:05 pm

Good morfternoon.

Turkey dismisses 7,400 more police, soldiers and public sector workers a year after failed coup (Independent)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42606.html

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 2:05 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What I would love to see is a movement in the UK that is pro-EU and forward looking, rather than nostalgic for an EU that, rightly or wrongly, we have voted to leave behind.

Are we ready to join Macron's conventions? Who will lead the debate here?

This is just missing for me. Maybe Labour are ready to pick it up. I hope so.

When I look forward for the EU, I see opportunities that arise from the UK leaving, tbh. If I were living in a Eurozone country I'd see an EU that can focus better on shared economic interests, for instance. Or I see things such as two extremely different countries like Germany and Spain making enormous strides in renewable energy, achieved in very different ways, because of shared environmental goals. The UK always seems to be pushing back against these things, always vetoing, always trying to stop the actual good stuff. If the EU is going to be a success with the UK in it, we have to be properly in it. We have to be able to have conversations about things like an EU armed task force without having a complete nationalist meltdown. We have to be able to consider the possibility of dropping the pound for the Euro one day without our heads exploding. I don't think, as a nation we are there and right now I don't think we have leaders who have the desire and ability to get us there.

I think it could be better for the EU as a whole if the UK went for a Norwegian option. It certainly wouldn't be in their interests for us to hard Brexit, but I'm not sure its entirely in their interests to convince us to stay either. I do not even know if we can unilaterally revoke article 50. And I don't know if all 27 EU countries would agree. There's a lot of "ifs" around staying in. Whereas, a Norwegian option is clearly available, which is why I'd like to see Labour try to build a consensus for it. Although then I remember the Tories are in charge and suddenly it seems pointless talking about any of these things. They will give us a bad Brexit or no Brexit, most likely and while they remain in charge of the UK government, neither will be the best outcome for the EU itself.