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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:32 pm 
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https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2018/01/fitne ... t-support/



https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-8185

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:43 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42678572


John Worboys: Minister considering judicial review

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:48 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/travel/gall ... n-pictures


Cities of light: famous sights at night – in pictures

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:57 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:49 am 
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@HindleA
Seeing as you asked, so kindly; Dreams have all been fridge free and generally not worthy of mentioning, although had one Friday night where I was - unintentionally at the time, but fairly predictably (in an innocent toddler kind of way) - directly responsible for inflicting physical damage upon a swimming turtle resulting in a traumatized - but still mostly intact - creature, some unpleasant yuck & me slightly distressed but feeling pleased that I'd inadvertently generated some cat food.
An almost rational explanation for the dream was that it's a combination of worrying about plastic packaging (thanks to Theresa May) & singing a Crosby Stills & Nash song (Wind on the Water) before going to bed, but the theory is not totally satisifying because the song is about Whales, not Turtles. So at this point I've realized that the only tortoise/turtle i've known anything about in recent years is Tarquin so I hope this is just a coincidence & that he's ok.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 8:25 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... r-too-much


I admire my old BBC colleagues hugely. But some earn far too much
Robin Lustig

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 9:35 am 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
frog222 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Henry Bolton OBE Verified account
@_HenryBolton

‘Let's go to WAR!' Ukip leader calls on Brexiteers to FIGHT to save Brexit

https://twitter.com/_HenryBolton/status ... 9955909632
Oh dear... anyone got a Dad's Army Photo?
+


Don't forget that Sir Lord Nigel Farridge said he was going to don Khaki , pick up his rifle , and ER do ... something !

Be Afraid of Far Right nail-bombers targeting pubs, mosques and of course synagogues .

Have I missed out any forrin menaces ?


Bistro's, you missed bistro, you know, all them forrin food muck purveyors :lol:


With the exception of curry houses, gotta go somewhere after the pub .


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 9:40 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ychologist


New row over advice given to John Worboys parole board

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 10:55 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... in-no-deal
"Our historic Brexit vote could now be reversed, admits Nigel Farage"
Quote:
The former Ukip leader told the Observer that he was becoming increasingly worried that the Leave camp had stopped fighting their corner, leaving a well-funded and organised Remain operation free to influence the political and public debate without challenge.

Not sure on the wisdom of the Observer interviewing him and then promoting his views on front cover. As with Trump, it would be nice if his every fetid muttering wasn't fawned over. (but here I am posting a link to it).


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 11:00 am 
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https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-star ... re-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 11:06 am 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/13/nigel-farage-hard-brexit-leave-remain-no-deal
"Our historic Brexit vote could now be reversed, admits Nigel Farage"
Quote:
The former Ukip leader told the Observer that he was becoming increasingly worried that the Leave camp had stopped fighting their corner, leaving a well-funded and organised Remain operation free to influence the political and public debate without challenge.

Not sure on the wisdom of the Observer interviewing him and then promoting his views on front cover. As with Trump, it would be nice if his every fetid muttering wasn't fawned over


Strong agree.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Lively debate on BBC News this morning.

Incisive criticism of Theresa May and her non reshuffle. Incisive criticism of the Tories lack of position on Brexit. Rounded off with a unequivocal condemnation of Trump's recent comments about Caribbean and African countries and a call for more immigrants from Norway - "let's call this what it is, this is white supremacist talk"!

Why can't more of the BBC's political output be like this? Does it really take a foreign political journalist to see how things really are: "Theresa May looks in need of a rescue party to save her from her own cabinet" (or words to that effect, my quotes are rough approximations, but you get the gist).

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 12:36 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)

Good to hear him saying that with clarity and a certain passion.

Good stuff Keir Starmer.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Awaits a certain somebody arriving to tell us how "useless" he is :)


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Bear.
Poke.
Would advise against.

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 12:50 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)


That was good from Starmer. Very clear about where Labour wanted to end up, very clear on all options being kept open to get there, responded well to freedom of movement question (good question from Guru-Murthy) and very adeptedly brought the fact that the Tories are in charge of negotiations to the fore at the close of the interview.

It's a shame more people (by which I mean remainers like me who are doubtful about Labour's position, rather than more generally) will see Corbyn on Peston. He was especially wooden, impenetrably pedantic on not being able to be in the single market when we leave the EU and just generally evasive on the whole single market question. He looked very uncomfortable talking about it. Fortunately, the media focus has mostly been on the question of another referendum a la Farage, on which Corbyn was much better with some good sound bites coming from that bit. It can never hurt to be on the opposite side of a controversial question from Farage. He re-iterated the need for a Parliament vote. As this is far more likely (though by no means certain) than a second referendum I feel discussions of which is more "democratic" are a little moot. We still have the hurdle of the withdrawal bill to overcome if a meaningful parliamentary vote is to be assured, though.

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)


That was good from Starmer. Very clear about where Labour wanted to end up, very clear on all options being kept open to get there, responded well to freedom of movement question (good question from Guru-Murthy) and very adeptedly brought the fact that the Tories are in charge of negotiations to the fore at the close of the interview.

It's a shame more people (by which I mean remainers like me who are doubtful about Labour's position, rather than more generally) will see Corbyn on Peston. He was especially wooden, impenetrably pedantic on not being able to be in the single market when we leave the EU and just generally evasive on the whole single market question. He looked very uncomfortable talking about it. Fortunately, the media focus has mostly been on the question of another referendum a la Farage, on which Corbyn was much better with some good sound bites coming from that bit. It can never hurt to be on the opposite side of a controversial question from Farage. He re-iterated the need for a Parliament vote. As this is far more likely (though by no means certain) than a second referendum I feel discussions of which is more "democratic" are a little moot. We still have the hurdle of the withdrawal bill to overcome if a meaningful parliamentary vote is to be assured, though.



That seems a fair summary......

Corbyn is not comfortable on this - is he being used as the 'Centre-Leave' so he stays credible with them whilst Starmer is 'Centre-Remain'. The two strands of voters that Labour have to appeal to

I like the fact that it is Starmer that is leading the discussions for Labour and I am happy to leave that to him.

If Starmer walked or expressed concern then I would be more worried myself.....as long as he is there I am happy to let them get on with it


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 1:15 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)


Guru-Murthy was very strident on the SM but I think he is wrong. Norway is in the EEA which has a treaty with the EU in order to allow access to the SM - but it does not include fisheries or agriculture - does this constitute membership or not? I do not think that it is as clear as the interviewer suggests it is. Switzerland is only in EFTA so the treaties are completely different from the EEA.

Starmer was right to talk about the outcomes rather than structures

You need to simplify things for the 'soundbite' media and short attention-span no-political nerds but there is no need to then state that your simplification is the whole story and is the absolute truth - he accused Corbyn of being wrong or lying!


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 1:53 pm 
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When's a journo going to ask about the "EEA" instead of the "Single Market"?

But even being generous to Labour, the "Single Market" when I hear it, suggests to me the EEA, not the EU.

It may be smart and strategic, but its' not entirely honest.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
When's a journo going to ask about the "EEA" instead of the "Single Market"?

But even being generous to Labour, the "Single Market" when I hear it, suggests to me the EEA, not the EU.

It may be smart and strategic, but its' not entirely honest.



It doesn't say that to me.....I live in a country that I am told is in the Single Market but is not in the EEA....so how does that work?

If they did say EEA then that is a defined treaty with defined obligations so we can look at that in detail....it also doesn't include the CU either so CU/SM so favoured by many is not EEA


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Switzerland's got bilaterals that achieve a similar result to the EEA.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Switzerland's got bilaterals that achieve a similar result to the EEA.


The bilaterals do not mirror the EEA agreement exactly - and to reiterate Switzerland is NOT a signatory of the EEA so to say the SM is EEA is not absolutely correct

To say so may seem a nice simplification but.....is not entirely honest

When you are sitting on the fence then being this pedantic important


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:17 pm 
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I didn't say that it mirrored the EEA exactly, or that it was in the EEA.

In the referendum campaign, everybody thought that Single Market meant the EEA.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I didn't say that it mirrored the EEA exactly, or that it was in the EEA.

In the referendum campaign, everybody thought that Single Market meant the EEA.


I didn't - it cannot have been because people kept mentioning Switzerland as being in it so it cannot be EEA

I don't remember people debating the ins and outs of the EEA agreement to be honest.....we just heard a lot about'Norway' - whatever that meant. Norway is in Schengen too

The truth is that people use whatever arguments they want and try to avoid talking what it actually means - these simplifications are fine but i don't agree with them being used to criticise others when the proponents are not prepared to go into the details

If SM is EEA then it should be clearly set out and we can do a line by line review of what this will mean in practice....I have not seen this detailed review take place or be debated by the politicians

Similarly to how the SM/CU seems to be thrown about with no consideration of any political consequences of such a deal - and whether the EU would accept it


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
When's a journo going to ask about the "EEA" instead of the "Single Market"?

But even being generous to Labour, the "Single Market" when I hear it, suggests to me the EEA, not the EU.

It may be smart and strategic, but its' not entirely honest.

I think it would be too restrictive on Brexit negotiations, if Corbyn was to be honest. Our current membership of the "Single Market" is through being in the EU, whereas membership through the EEA would involve rejoining the EFTA, so either way we're committed to accepting free movement, eu courts etc.
This may all happen anyway, but maybe we should leave all options open to at least establish what is possible & why. At the very least it might be necessary to try & convince a wide spectrum of leave & remainers that the eventual result is democratic.
(although this seems a bit unlikely)


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Is this not why Starmer is quite right to suggest not using the labels?

If even EU geeks like us (no offence meant) can't agree what the Single Market is......


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:27 pm 
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I still think it will suit the EU to move on Freedom of Movement at some point, even if just to codify the various migration controls currently being used in different parts of the Union and presenting them as a clear policy.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:31 pm 
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I worry about this "don't use labels" approach is that the EU seems pretty definite that the labels represent the only options for Britain.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:34 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)

Good to hear him saying that with clarity and a certain passion.

Good stuff Keir Starmer.



The same thing he said yesterday at the Fabians (which I criticised yesterday). Refusing to commit to the single market and the customs union, whislt wanting all the benefits. Willing the lovely ends we all agree on, whilst saying nothing at all about how that might be achievable (mainly because it isn't). I'm mystified as to why you think this is anything new, it is the same cake and eat stuff from Labour we've had fpr ages. The same silliness as we get from Davis.

No serious commentator gives this any credence whatsoever. It is for the faithful (in the sense that only partisans who want to believe pay it any attention). Starmer is I am afraid, just a a joke now. He has sold the credibility he had. Much like Shami C in this regard. As a lawyer, I am sad to see someone sacrificing my profession's credibility in this way (I think much the same about someone like Raab, who must know that what he says about the EU just isn't credible).

Perhaps lawyers should be banned from going into politics as respect for the rule of law is damaged by this kind of stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:35 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Is this not why Starmer is quite right to suggest not using the labels?

If even EU geeks like us (no offence meant) can't agree what the Single Market is......


absolutely.....and this is why I get a tad frustrated when people talk of it being an entity in its own right

The way I see it that membership of certain bodies gives a certain access vs various treaties - if we join the EEA then that is clearly set out what that means. If we join EFTA then that has treaties

Joining those bodies requires agreement of the member states

Anything above and beyond treaties - eg Custom's Union if in EEA will need to be agreed bilaterally

To say 'the Single Market' exists in a universally agreed form for anyone outside these membership bodies does not seem to be correct

So, if we want the access as defined by the EEA agreement then we need to say so....say we want to be a member of the EEA not 'the Single Market' - and we can look at what that means, and also how we go about membership post-Brexit

Seems to be me it would be just a lot easier to say sod it - we are staying in as everything else is just a nightmare!


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Stuff like this from Corbyn on the single market is just flatly untrue, as we all know,and so I suppose it is something that Starmer hasn't (yet) sunk this low


https://twitter.com/pestononsunday/stat ... 7185044480


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I worry about this "don't use labels" approach is that the EU seems pretty definite that the labels represent the only options for Britain.


you aren't using a label - you are using 'the Single Market' which is not unambiguously defined anywhere for countries not EU members

If you mean it to mean EEA then we should say EEA, if we mean EFTA then we say EFTA, if we mean EU then we say EU

This SM/CU option everyone talks about is meaningless when looked at in detail - what we are really saying is we are EEA and CU (but what CU means here is not clear as it has not yet been agreed as any treaty) of we could just say exactly the same as set out in the Treaty of Lisbon - ie the status quo

What the EU would actually allow is not at all clear


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:40 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.channel4.com/news/keir-starmer-benefits-of-the-single-market-are-crucial
"Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer discusses whether staying in the single market should be a long-term option for Labour."
(Channel 4 interview with Krishnan Guru-Murthy)

Good to hear him saying that with clarity and a certain passion.

Good stuff Keir Starmer.



The same thing he said yesterday at the Fabians (which I criticised yesterday). Refusing to commit to the single market and the customs union, whislt wanting all the benefits. Willing the lovely ends we all agree on, whilst saying nothing at all about how that might be achievable (mainly because it isn't). I'm mystified as to why you think this is anything new, it is the same cake and eat stuff from Labour we've had fpr ages. The same silliness as we get from Davis.

No serious commentator gives this any credence whatsoever. It is for the faithful (in the sense that only partisans who want to believe pay it any attention). Starmer is I am afraid, just a a joke now. He has sold the credibility he had. Much like Shami C in this regard. As a lawyer, I am sad to see someone sacrificing my profession's credibility in this way (I think much the same about someone like Raab, who must know that what he says about the EU just isn't credible).

Perhaps lawyers should be banned from going into politics as respect for the rule of law is damaged by this kind of stuff.

This is the funniest thing I've read in ages. Thank you ;-)


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:46 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This is the funniest thing I've read in ages. Thank you ;-)


And so we obtain all the benefits of the single market and customs union without being in the single market and customs union how?

By creating an identical thing on the self same terms with all the members of the single market and customs union, and being a member of that?

Perhaps we could have a "new" single market of which we and all the current members of the single market became members, that remained identical in all respects overtime with the current one?

A small child wouldn't be convinced by this stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Did I just see Hugo criticising someone for undermining 'his profession's' credibility?

WOW!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:50 pm 
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The EU would be delighted to have things as similar to now as possible. Change is major hassle.

There are different customs unions already. The one with San Marino includes agricultural products. The ones with Turkey and Andorra don't. One with the UK would include them.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:52 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Did I just see Hugo criticising someone for undermining 'his profession's' credibility?

WOW!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:53 pm 
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(And not withstanding that the hacking satire scratches beneath the reminder.)

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Walking guides to Germany. Where do you get 'em?
(have 'googled' - in the same way that my father used to 'hoover' - with little or no success)

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:54 pm 
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(not exactly the same way, obv)*

(*for PF)

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:55 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This is the funniest thing I've read in ages. Thank you ;-)


And so we obtain all the benefits of the single market and customs union without being in the single market and customs union how?

By creating an identical thing on the self same terms with all the members of the single market and customs union, and being a member of that?

Perhaps we could have a "new" single market of which we and all the current members of the single market became members, that remained identical in all respects overtime with the current one?

A small child wouldn't be convinced by this stuff.



Nobody is 'in' the single market - they are 'in' the EU or are 'in' the EEA or are 'in' EFTA or have bilateral bespoke treaties. The treaties define what they can and cannot do

The treaty to define the relationship between the UK and the CU will have to be agreed and signed as it is not covered in any existing non-EU treaties. It may be an exact replica of the EU one or it may be one with some exemptions like the EEA agreement

The question of the Single Market and what it contains is immaterial for EU members as it is clearly defined in the treaties.....they do not say what is in and what is outside. So agriculture and fisheries etc are outside the EEA agreement but inside the EU one

I will ask again.....what are the political ramifications of essentially accepting the full obligations of the EU (and benefits as well) without any say in the rules making although we will be obliged to implement them? Do you think that will go down well and be stable?


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Press release
Government supports new measures to improve the safety of tenants

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... of-tenants

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:58 pm 
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"To Germany?".I thought only one of us thought we could walk on water?

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Money spent on shifting factory production from Britain to rEU is money that could be spent on R&D, dividends, cutting taxes, whatever. If the UK wants to go for the status quo, it'll get it.

The problem is purely a UK political one, and, to be fair, very formidable. Leavers have been smart in emphasizing future trade deals. I don't think Labour's done enough to kick back against that nonsense.


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:00 pm 
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https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/walking-guides-germany/

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Last edited by HindleA on Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
The EU would be delighted to have things as similar to now as possible. Change is major hassle.

There are different customs unions already. The one with San Marino includes agricultural products. The ones with Turkey and Andorra don't. One with the UK would include them.



That wouldn't have the exact same benefits as now then, would it?


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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:03 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Is this not why Starmer is quite right to suggest not using the labels?

If even EU geeks like us (no offence meant) can't agree what the Single Market is......


Starmer handled it well, I feel, he committed to nothing other than where Labour would like to end up and ruled nothing out - he handled the question of freedom of movement (which personally I think is what most people associate most with the idea of a single market, quite rightly from an economic point of view imo) by suggesting this is a question for the next stage once we've established a transition period. He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing. It was deftly done. It's a shame Corbyn can't talk so comfortably and knowledgeably on the EU, but there it is. He was so much at ease on other stuff in the same interview, his difficulty talking about the EU stands out, but he did get the bits that are of most relevance right now nailed. Namely the need for a meaningful parliamentary vote on the Tory deal (if they get one) and not being distracted with calls for second referendum we are not going to get unless it is guaranteed to provide an answer that suits the Tory/DUP coalition currently in charge.

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:06 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/inde ... o-building

Independent review to tackle barriers to building

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:07 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... -contracts

Open consultation
Drafting of schedules 4, 7 and 8 of the passenger and freight model track access contracts

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Quote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.


Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.


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