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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 5:54 pm 
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adam wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
What exactly was going on with the SNP in the Commons today?


I think they had a point but they somehow managed to fail to use the many and varied procedures available to actual really disrupt things. Maybe they think it will play better in the medium/long term for folks back home to see the tory benches waving them goodbye as they walked out.


Some interesting reactions:
Quote:
Ruth Davidson: “Questions tabled to the PM going unasked, a debate that was likely to be granted by the Speaker shunned, all so the SNP could pull a manufactured stunt. Grievo max”

David Mundell: “The SNP was about to be granted a debate on how the devolution aspects of the EU Withdrawal Bill. Disappointed, if not surprised, that if they really felt so strongly about it, they chose a stunt over holding the Government to account”

Labour MP Ged Killen: “Still trying to understand the logic of what SNP have just done in #PMQs. They were down to ask 5 Qs to PM and Ian Blackford had an application for an emergency debate coming up. Is this suppose to help Scotland’s voice be heard or just get Blackford on tonight’s news?”


I particularly like Tim Farron's comment:

Quote:
Former Lib Dems leader Tim Farron: “You pulled a daft stunt and you silenced yourself. I speak from experience - we tried the same choreographed hissy-fit once (Lisbon treaty 2008) and we looked as shallow and pointless then as you do today”


https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... -1-4753987

For those more adept at using facebook etc than I am, this link was in the comments to the Scotsman article

https://www.facebook.com/UAS1707/photos ... =3&theater

Or maybe there is some truth in the suggestion that the SNP want to draw attention away from this:

Quote:
The Scottish Government has come under fire in a damning watchdog report which found journalists were "deliberately" thwarted from receiving Freedom of Information responses. Scotland's Information Commissioner Daren Fitzhenry today found journalists faced delays, and were less likely to get information and treated differently from other members of the public. This is breaches the "blind principle" of Freedom of Information laws which says all requests from press and public should be treated alike.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... -1-4753857


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Tim Farron still looks pretty much the definition of "shallow and pointless" to me :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:31 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tim Farron still looks pretty much the definition of "shallow and pointless" to me :twisted:


Those pics of him holding up milk cartons :)


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Labour Whips
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Division 1: MPs now voting on @UKLabour amendment on internal market #EUWithdrawalbill


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:32 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tim Farron still looks pretty much the definition of "shallow and pointless" to me :twisted:


Those pics of him holding up milk cartons :)

This one?


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Or perhaps this one?


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Or even this one?


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Shall I stop now? :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:45 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Shall I stop now? :twisted:


Yes - don't milk it . . .


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 6:48 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Shall I stop now? :twisted:


Yes - don't milk it . . .

Don't worry I haven't got the bottle.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 7:02 pm 
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/statu ... 4958504960
Quote:

Robert Peston
Robert Peston
@Peston
Tory Rebel Remainers say Hailsham is tabling Grieve's "meaningful vote" amendment - which @theresa_may tried to kill yesterday - in Lords, in case she fails to honour pledge she made to table government amendment capturing spirit of Grieve's. Battle not over #EUWithdrawalBill
7:56 pm · 13 Jun 2018

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 7:04 pm 
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@PoliticoTeacher
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House of Lords amendment 51, which would have kept us in the EEA, is defeated by 327 to 126. #EUWithdrawalBill

Thankfully that one is out of the way. A few Labour front bench resigned, presumably to vote for this amendment.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Laura Smith MP

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@LauraSmithMP
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After much reflection, I have resigned as Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office to vote against remaining in the EEA. I will always put my constituents in Crewe & Nantwich first

[My emphasis]


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 7:47 pm 
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[list=][/list]
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@PoliticoTeacher
26s27 seconds ago
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House of Lords amendment 51, which would have kept us in the EEA, is defeated by 327 to 126. #EUWithdrawalBill

Thankfully that one is out of the way. A few Labour front bench resigned, presumably to vote for this amendment.


Out of the way? You're hopeful. I suspect the divisions and disagreements over Brexit policy are just going to deepen and grow from here on out, on both sides of the house.

And what if the only way May can keep her commitment to no hard Irish Border is to commit to keeping us in the single market and a customs union? Will Corbyn still be arguing against being "rule takers" and oppose? Given businesses will want to comply to EU standards regardless because it's our biggest market, we're going to become rule takers anyway. Being a rule maker is exactly why we wanted to be a member of the EU in the first place.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 7:57 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
[list=][/list]
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@PoliticoTeacher
26s27 seconds ago
More
House of Lords amendment 51, which would have kept us in the EEA, is defeated by 327 to 126. #EUWithdrawalBill

Thankfully that one is out of the way. A few Labour front bench resigned, presumably to vote for this amendment.


Out of the way? You're hopeful. I suspect the divisions and disagreements over Brexit policy are just going to deepen and grow from here on out, on both sides of the house.

And what if the only way May can keep her commitment to no hard Irish Border is to commit to keeping us in the single market and a customs union? Will Corbyn still be arguing against being "rule takers" and oppose? Given businesses will want to comply to EU standards regardless because it's our biggest market, we're going to become rule takers anyway. Being a rule maker is exactly why we wanted to be a member of the EU in the first place.

Well I am hopeful actually, by nature. But I think you misunderstood me anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:13 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
[list=][/list]
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@PoliticoTeacher
26s27 seconds ago
More
House of Lords amendment 51, which would have kept us in the EEA, is defeated by 327 to 126. #EUWithdrawalBill

Thankfully that one is out of the way. A few Labour front bench resigned, presumably to vote for this amendment.


Out of the way? You're hopeful. I suspect the divisions and disagreements over Brexit policy are just going to deepen and grow from here on out, on both sides of the house.

And what if the only way May can keep her commitment to no hard Irish Border is to commit to keeping us in the single market and a customs union? Will Corbyn still be arguing against being "rule takers" and oppose? Given businesses will want to comply to EU standards regardless because it's our biggest market, we're going to become rule takers anyway. Being a rule maker is exactly why we wanted to be a member of the EU in the first place.

Well I am hopeful actually, by nature. But I think you misunderstood me anyway.


I think I must have misunderstood. The idea of the question of whether or not we remain in the single market being "out of the way" just struck me as rather unlikely!

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
[list=][/list]
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@PoliticoTeacher
26s27 seconds ago
More
House of Lords amendment 51, which would have kept us in the EEA, is defeated by 327 to 126. #EUWithdrawalBill

Thankfully that one is out of the way. A few Labour front bench resigned, presumably to vote for this amendment.


Out of the way? You're hopeful. I suspect the divisions and disagreements over Brexit policy are just going to deepen and grow from here on out, on both sides of the house.

And what if the only way May can keep her commitment to no hard Irish Border is to commit to keeping us in the single market and a customs union? Will Corbyn still be arguing against being "rule takers" and oppose? Given businesses will want to comply to EU standards regardless because it's our biggest market, we're going to become rule takers anyway. Being a rule maker is exactly why we wanted to be a member of the EU in the first place.


Hi all,

Sorry not about much but still read regularly and always interested

I think actually I saw some glimmers of light today from Starmer (Corbyn sat next to him throughout the speech) and Benn, Cooper

A large number of Labour pro-EEA MPs said that it is deficient in its present form and needs significant amendment. Starmer says the same thing. The first one want to call it amended EEA and Starmer doesn't. That seems to be the main difference and it seems there is a realisation from both Starmer and Cooper especially that a form of words needs to be found to align the two. Cooper used the reform of the HoL bill as an example where the principles were very similar but differences in approach led to a stalemate

The strength of the EEA treaty is that is exists but it does not cover a number of key areas and these would have to be resolved. There is also the fact that we would be signing a treaty which was negotiated for the benefit of another country and so it will naturally be deficient in some areas. I think the EEA is also politically difficult to sell if we just sign up to it as it is now and that managing to use 'bespoke' and with some reforms (although in practice very similar) would be better

I am also a bit annoyed with the FBPE crowd holding Labour to more account than the Government. Labour are completely justified in saying that if they were negotiating they would go for what they think is best for Britain and look for compromises with the EU where possible. There are opportunities in the Freedom of Movement requirements and some of the concerns Labour have could probably be dealt with in proper negotiations. Labour would have gone (or will go) into this negotiation with a clear agreement on future residence rights, no red lines on the ECJ, a commitment to a CU and to try to stay as close to the current relationship with the internal market as possible. I imagine the EU would find such an approach more palatable and likely to produce some concessions within their desired framework. I still maintain the EU want us to stay close to them and would help a constructive partner to do so. The reason we are getting so little is the shambolic way this is being approached and the hostility of our side.

What Cooper raised was the idea of the EEA as a backstop to prevent us falling over the cliff edge and I think that is closely linked to the Withdrawal Bill and the idea of what would happen if the HoC rejected the deal. I think that has some merit to explore further and it seems that may have already started

The Tories are in a completely different place and it looks like they are more united but at some point someone is either going to have to 'suck it up' or there will be an explosion in their ranks. Labour has its own problems but the tone seems better (Corbyn was quite nice about those PPS and minister who resigned tonight)

The rabid pro-retainers in Labour (and there are only a few and probably using it for other reasons) need to have hard look at what is possible. If they continue to slag off the front bench and not look for compromise on this EEA point they seem wedded to then it will only help the Tories. The front bench needs to listen to. What is a bit galling is that in the immediate aftermath of the referendum Umunna and Smith to name two were quite vociferous in saying Labour had to stop FoM and 'deal with immigration'. I am not sure how they manage to sound so sanctimonious now without any shame or self-awareness

The key people now seem to be Starmer and Cooper.....if they can get the wording right then Labour may have something that can be supported, although the Tory rebels will then let us all down

I think this idea May is going to be able to keep the Tories in the SM and CU is a non-starter. There has been no indication there are enough Tories to support her and she would be subject to a leadership challenge within days if she tried it. The reason why we are in a situation where the can keeps getting kicked down the road is she is lost if she goes too Remain or too Brexit, so the best option is to do nothing for as long as she can.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:17 pm 
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4danglier on the Live thread --

I watched a fair chunk of the debate yesterday, including Sir Bill Cash and Sir Edward Leigh. It seems the brexiteers’ argument rests solely on the pov that, when the HoC voted 6 to 1 to hold the referendum, MPs delegated responsibility completely and definitively to the outcome of that referendum. Now they’ve just got to suck it up (my paraphrasing).

That’s not going to win over anybody who thinks.

Anyway, none of this matters. The brexit project died last week, with the ludicrous negotiations between the PM and DD over a proposal to the EU that was clear to all completely inadequate. That was, IMO, the brexiteers’ last stand. They’ve nowhere else to go.

The only question left is whether we get a BINO (brexit in name only), or merely cancel the whole thing.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
I think I must have misunderstood. The idea of the question of whether or not we remain in the single market being "out of the way" just struck me as rather unlikely!

OK sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I was just happy that particular Division was out of the way, which was always going to be trouble for the Opposition and allowed the Tories some breathing space they don't deserve.

I agree with your analysis.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:29 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
4danglier on the Live thread --

I watched a fair chunk of the debate yesterday, including Sir Bill Cash and Sir Edward Leigh. It seems the brexiteers’ argument rests solely on the pov that, when the HoC voted 6 to 1 to hold the referendum, MPs delegated responsibility completely and definitively to the outcome of that referendum. Now they’ve just got to suck it up (my paraphrasing).

That’s not going to win over anybody who thinks.

Anyway, none of this matters. The brexit project died last week, with the ludicrous negotiations between the PM and DD over a proposal to the EU that was clear to all completely inadequate. That was, IMO, the brexiteers’ last stand. They’ve nowhere else to go.

The only question left is whether we get a BINO (brexit in name only), or merely cancel the whole thing.



There is still one option open.....ditch May and that may still come to pass. They almost have enough people calling for the removal so it may well happen

I do not see how the Tories would survive BINO......those leave voters are critical to them and their membership is rabidly anti-EU....even more so now I would imagine


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:34 pm 
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The Government won everything tonight...they haven't yet been defeated on this

This is not des to the Labour front bench position - it is due to the Tories and a few consistent Labour rebels

There are not enough Tories who really think Brexit is important enough to vote for what the believe - after all we keep getting told there is a majority for a soft Brexit but they never seem to vote for it.....ever!


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 8:37 pm 
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https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/ ... 9546158080

picking up on this Grieve/Starmer/Clark agreement at the Live Thread --

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 0d612a725c


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 9:00 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1006882409546158080

picking up on this Grieve/Starmer/Clark agreement at the Live Thread --

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 0d612a725c

This does seem to be quite interesting.

Not sure I've really got what happened though.


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2018 9:19 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
The only question left is whether we get a BINO (brexit in name only), or merely cancel the whole thing.


It is overwhelmingly likely that we are still getting some sort of Brexit.

That is, if you like, the bad news - the good news is that the likelihood of it being the disastrous "no deal" Brexit that JRM and his ERG cronies want is diminishing by the day.


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