Tuesday 17th February 2015

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:03 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ts-of-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lucy Glennon: what her life tells us about the real effects of cuts for disabled people
The writer and disability activist has died at the age of 29, having faced the excrutiating pain of her condition with bravery and humour. But she also had first-hand experience of how welfare rules are making life tougher for the most vulnerable

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:05 pm

Btw, has Hodges made any comment yet ? If he had any bollocks he would by now recognize he too is being used to generate clicks by posting the same article time and time again.

It should be a wake up call if he had any sense.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:08 pm

Toby Latimer wrote:Btw, has Hodges made any comment yet ? If he had any bollocks he would by now recognize he too is being used to generate clicks by posting the same article time and time again.

It should be a wake up call if he had any sense.

He has.

Dan Hodges @DPJHodges · 52 mins 52 minutes ago
@EllieCumbo @MissEllieMae I think Peter's resignation is bad news for anyone who enjoys his outstanding writing.

And in response to Tom Watson's

tom_watson ‏@tom_watson 46m46 minutes ago
@Isdancing @OborneTweets I'd like to know what @DPJHodges thinks on this matter.

he said

Dan HodgesVerified account
‏@DPJHodges
@tom_watson @Isdancing @OborneTweets He thinks Peter's an outstanding writer and he's sad he can no longer call him a colleague.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:10 pm

Toby Latimer wrote:Btw, has Hodges made any comment yet ? If he had any bollocks he would by now recognize he too is being used to generate clicks by posting the same article time and time again.

It should be a wake up call if he had any sense.

I think he wants to be the last man standing at the Tgraph. Fits with his hero complex.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:12 pm

James Ball ‏@jamesrbuk 6m6 minutes ago
HSBC "paused" Guardian advertising just before #HSBCfiles publication. We published anyway. http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/f ... ud-readers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

No comments facility on that G piece.

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:13 pm

Message from Dan ;

"Locked myself away, deep in my bunker at Telegraph Towers. Will probably be incommunicado for a few days until the Barclays have calmed down a bit.

I'm feeling a tad sheepish right now for all those horrid things I wrote about Ed. (I know - it's an Alpaca) I'll still be taking their shilling though when this blows over.

: B9vzDuWIIAAdZL-.jpg (23.37 KiB) Viewed 8972 times

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:17 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
George Eaton @georgeeaton · 2h 2 hours ago
Labour keeping up HSBC pressure on Tories: Balls writes to Osborne with five questions. http://bit.ly/1AzOQa8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's quite a letter.
Not half - if gets any honest answers from Osborne, frankly I'll probably die of shock. He's asked all of the right questions (and there's certainly more than 5 there). But it's incendiary stuff that'll have the government squirming. I'm glad it is public, although I expect the meeja (the finest one can buy) to try and bury the letter.

I'd like to Tweet that letter but, as with all of the Labour Press announcements, there is no Tweet shortcut or proper Share. What does everyone else do in that instance pleas?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:20 pm

FuriousGeorge wrote:Speaking of the Telegraph....

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo ... -telegraph

You need to read the whole thing to realise just how twisted our free press is.

I liked this extract from a BTL comment:

Any publication that values the likes of Dan Hodges above someone like yourself can no longer be considered a serious newspaper.

Nice one!

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:20 pm

Toby Latimer wrote:
Spacedone wrote:
The arrival of Mr Seiken coincided with the arrival of the click culture. Stories seemed no longer judged by their importance, accuracy or appeal to those who actually bought the paper. The more important measure appeared to be the number of online visits.
Sound like any other newspaper website we could name?

Quite,
I just came across this passage
Oborne says this change led to the introduction of a "click culture", which he argued caused "incalculable damage on the reputation of the paper",

It's a bit rich of Rusbridger tweeting about Oborne's departure when his comic is no better nowadays.

Totally agree. I considered making that exact point to Wintour after reading his own tweet.

And if newspapers are self-censoring their own reporting and/or generating articles purely for advertising reasons it's not a giant leap to think that those newspapers/media companies will do the same thing due to political influence.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:20 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Toby Latimer wrote:Btw, has Hodges made any comment yet ? If he had any bollocks he would by now recognize he too is being used to generate clicks by posting the same article time and time again.

It should be a wake up call if he had any sense.
I think he wants to be the last man standing at the Tgraph. Fits with his hero complex.

The boy stood on the burning deck . . . .

His "Tweet" about Peter Oborne was a bit lame, wasn't it? It was hardly supportive or rallying to his (Peter Oborne's) flag.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:20 pm

giselle97 wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's quite a letter.
Not half - if gets any honest answers from Osborne, frankly I'll probably die of shock. He's asked all of the right questions (and there's certainly more than 5 there). But it's incendiary stuff that'll have the government squirming. I'm glad it is public, although I expect the meeja (the finest one can buy) to try and bury the letter.
I'd like to Tweet that letter but, as with all of the Labour Press announcements, there is no Tweet shortcut or proper Share. What does everyone else do in that instance pleas?

This any use?

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1112761 ... ge-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:21 pm

Daniel Finkelstein ‏@Dannythefink 7m7 minutes ago Harrow, London
The problem with Tele saying that @OborneTweets is full of inaccuracies and innuendo is that he has been their chief commentator for 5 years

Rednorth · Post by **Rednorth** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:21 pm

I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:22 pm

I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:23 pm

I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:23 pm

giselle97 wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's quite a letter.
Not half - if gets any honest answers from Osborne, frankly I'll probably die of shock. He's asked all of the right questions (and there's certainly more than 5 there). But it's incendiary stuff that'll have the government squirming. I'm glad it is public, although I expect the meeja (the finest one can buy) to try and bury the letter.
I'd like to Tweet that letter but, as with all of the Labour Press announcements, there is no Tweet shortcut or proper Share. What does everyone else do in that instance pleas?

I cut and past the link in the Twitter box, check how many letters are left, and then try to fit something eye catching in front of the link. Sometimes their own headline will fit.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:24 pm

Whoops - sorry about the double post. Dunno what happened there....

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:25 pm

Ecotricity boss Dale Vince due to speak to C4 news now about his donation to Labour & why he did so.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:27 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Spacedone wrote:
The arrival of Mr Seiken coincided with the arrival of the click culture. Stories seemed no longer judged by their importance, accuracy or appeal to those who actually bought the paper. The more important measure appeared to be the number of online visits.
Sound like any other newspaper website we could name?
Well quite. But I didn't want to be the one to say it. Thank you Spacedone. I'm going to be trying to spot advertorial stories from now on ....

Half the rugby articles have Accenture plastered all over them, providing data.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:28 pm

ephemerid wrote:I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.

Is it the Barclay brothers who bought property on and are trying to do a takeover of the island of Sark? No time to Google at the moment.

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:28 pm

ephemerid wrote:I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.

I've made a vow not to go there again, it's not even a shadow of it's former self. The D'Ancona puff piece was the final straw as far as I'm concerned.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:28 pm

ephemerid wrote:Whoops - sorry about the double post. Dunno what happened there....

Send me a Private Message if you want any coaching.

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:29 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ephemerid wrote:I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.
Is it the Barclay brothers who bought property on and are trying to do a takeover of the island of Sark? No time to Google at the moment.

The very same ....

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:29 pm

pk1 wrote:Ecotricity boss Dale Vince due to speak to C4 news now about his donation to Labour & why he did so.

Jon Snow coming across all Andrew Marr by just parroting some of those tabloid stories. Not sure what the point of that interview was.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:30 pm

Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

Not sure how you missed this - first posted Mon Dec 08, 2014.

Labour Key policies 2015
http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?p=19409#p19409" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Changing Britain Together
http://b.3cdn.net/labouruk/414e1ab67632 ... 6bflfq.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the pre-manifesto document, the full manifesto will be produced when the election campaign actually starts. Which I believe will be 6 weeks before the election - as it always is.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:31 pm

Goodnight, everyone.

Rednorth · Post by **Rednorth** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:34 pm

ephemerid wrote:I've always had a grudging admiration for Peter Oborne - I didn't always agree with what he said, but he expressed his views with force and eloquence; he also did his homework and is a proper journalist.

The Telegraph has been going downhill for some time, and now we know a bit more about it. I've followed the shenanigans there via Private Eye, and I suppose it was inevitable that someone with integrity like Oborne would go eventually.

Perhaps he should write for the G. Then they could boot out the execrable D'Ancona.

Oborne seems to have more integrity than most journos on the right but his support for IDS and his welfare reforms on the basis that IDS was returning the Welfare State to something more in keeping with what Beveridge originally envisaged made me wonder if he'd ever done any history at school.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:34 pm

Is Dan Hodges okay? How's Dan taking this.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:35 pm

Goodnight, PF!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:38 pm

Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk · 7h 7 hours ago
Here’s me for @commentisfree on how Labour’s campaign could sharpen things up in the final 80 days http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Some of the points and suggestions in his piece are useful ... I think your 'shapeless' probably fits with this para:

Now Labour is swimming in bits and pieces of policy – but the problem now is that it lacks a cohesive narrative that frames those policies in something bigger. Labour needs to answer the question, “What will Britain look like after five years of a Miliband government?” The Tories already have their one word answer “chaos”, but what is Labour’s? Fairer? Safer? Kinder? If people don’t know what exactly Miliband wants the country to look like, then the Tories will find it easier to paint a vote for Labour as a “risk”.

I'm going to be racking my brain for the one (or perhaps two, three or four) word answer I'd like to see.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:39 pm

Dale Vince being patronised by Jon Snow was reminded he had purchased a castle 2 years ago. Did he mind paying the mansion tax ?

Vince: Not at all, I don't object to it because I think the better off among us has a duty to pay more and if there's a choice between that & families being able to afford to feed their children, I know which I'm going to choose. I think the rise of food banks in our country is a disgrace in the last few years and we need to do something about it.

Snow: You have a large number of windows, do you have a receipt off your window cleaner ?

Vince: (laughing) honestly Jon, I don't know

Snow: Do you perceive Labour as having a problem with business

Vince: No, I don't actually. I think that's something that's a bit of a media stereotype. If you look at what Labour are saying about business, they're saying some sensible things.

Then the interview is cut off. No thank you Dale, no kiss my ass Dale, no nothing !

C4 news is almost as bloody atrocious as all the others !

The quotes above are exactly what was asked & the replies given. IMO Mr Vince has more integrity about him than all our media class put together.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:39 pm

Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

The media was often hostile in the Blair years too, at least from when Cameron pitched up and looked like the nice bloke they live next door too.

Left of centre parties haven't done very well in most places. Labour's doing pretty well.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:42 pm

Rob Ford (Britain) ‏@robfordmancs 14m14 minutes ago
Well played @OborneTweets . Now I hope journalists with conscience will drop the effing hedge trimming crap and get back to HSBC

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:44 pm

Spacedone wrote:
pk1 wrote:Ecotricity boss Dale Vince due to speak to C4 news now about his donation to Labour & why he did so.
Jon Snow coming across all Andrew Marr by just parroting some of those tabloid stories. Not sure what the point of that interview was.

It was an appalling interview wasn't it. I've done a transcript of the more interesting bits in my post before this one but the cut off at the end - wtf was that all about ?!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:47 pm

Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

But reading Peter Osborne's damning resignation from and about the Telegraph doesn't that make you understand why the impression Labour is 'whishy washy' has such a strong hold? The press have a lot to answer for, and I'm sorry but I don't give a tuppenny fart for celebrities views on politics. They should keep their gobs shut and concentrate on what they're good - or not - at.

We need to take into account Ed's character. He's never going to give blood rousing speeches. He's the total opposite of Cameron but by God we need someone who means what he says. That it's said quietly and firmly without bright lights and fireworks is unfortunate for those that want some 'fire in the belly'. I did at first, but now I listen to what he says not how he says it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:51 pm

The problem as we often say is not that Labour lack policies, but that they don't get reported, discussed and, yes, critiqued, just ignored.

Yesterday Labour announced on of the most substantial economic policies seen in the UK in my lifetime. I read somewhere that the policy document runs to 71 pages.

And what did the sodding Westminster media pillocks focus on? Whether Ed Balls is right to ask for a receipt from his gardener. It's pathetic.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:52 pm

giselle97 wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's quite a letter.
Not half - if gets any honest answers from Osborne, frankly I'll probably die of shock. He's asked all of the right questions (and there's certainly more than 5 there). But it's incendiary stuff that'll have the government squirming. I'm glad it is public, although I expect the meeja (the finest one can buy) to try and bury the letter.
I'd like to Tweet that letter but, as with all of the Labour Press announcements, there is no Tweet shortcut or proper Share. What does everyone else do in that instance pleas?

Does this link provide you with an what you need? Apologies if not.

https://www.tumblr.com/register/follow/labourpress

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:55 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Rob Ford (Britain) ‏@robfordmancs 14m14 minutes ago
Well played @OborneTweets . Now I hope journalists with conscience will drop the effing hedge trimming crap and get back to HSBC

Scared to speak out, Scared for their jobs.

The chattering classes are being smothered by the people and companies who really run the country. Wonder if they'll find the guts to speak out?
Nah. They've had chance after chance and blown it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:56 pm

Correction it's 82 pages. Clear statements on Britain's membership of the EU (in) on devolution of powers to the regions, carbon-free economy by 2030, hugely important announcements on apprenticeships and post-16 education, etc. etc.

And with a coherent thread that says that prosperity doesn't depend on the very wealthy rather on the ordinary folk. Everyone is a wealth creator.

I'm not saying everyone has to agree with these policies, but they are clear, rational, implementable policies that merit wide discussion.

Rednorth · Post by **Rednorth** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:59 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?
Those staunch labourites Ant and Dec voted Tory in 2010, and in the same article they said they could not see Miliband as PM, they also rubbished Cameron. Today we have the Church of England, the so called 'Conservative Party at Prayer' openly attacking a Tory PM. Which of those do you think is more significant?

Yesterday you were complaining that all Labour did was announce policies. Those policies are the results of the policy review. Two documents have been published on the review, One Nation Economy and One Nation Society. They're online, look them up. It frankly doesn't take much research

They voted Tory for the one and only time in 2010 after a lifetime of voting Labour and describing themselves as 'staunch Labour'. Allow them one lapse, do, this isn't the Petrograd Soviet. Despite disliking Cameron and not wanting to vote Tory again, they couldn't see what Labour were offering.

I didn't comment on the Church of England. I don't see the point's relevance here. Is it more important than Ant and Dec, frankly I doubt it given the habits of today's digital congregations, but even if it is, so what? it's not going to vote Labour, and that was the point of my post.

To say I complained that all Labour did was announce policies is a silly simplification of my post. I complained they released policies without (seemingly) a coherent overall narrative, and that the presentation of those announcements was piecemeal and amateurish.

My question about the policy review was rhetorical. The review was trumpeted at the time as signaling a new direction for the party in the wake of Blairism. For it to live up to that and impact on the party's election prospects it needed to be consistent, substantial, and profound. It should have been the moment when the party shifted the focus on to its core policies, and announced in suitably grandiose fashion, not a daily dribble of policies to a backdrop of reheated 19th century one-nation Tory slogans.

After a few posts, I see this forum is somewhat tribalist and less interested in discussing Labour's election prospects and how they could be improved so much as a back-slapping echo chamber. By all means carry on. Despite the kind of global capitalist catastrophe that was supposed to usher in an epoch of socialism, the nominally left wing party can't scrape together a decent election poll lead.

After the election, slapping yourself on the back will be all that's left. Sadly, many of us will be picking up bodies as a consequence.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:59 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk · 7h 7 hours ago
Here’s me for @commentisfree on how Labour’s campaign could sharpen things up in the final 80 days http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Some of the points and suggestions in his piece are useful ... I think your 'shapeless' probably fits with this para:
Now Labour is swimming in bits and pieces of policy – but the problem now is that it lacks a cohesive narrative that frames those policies in something bigger. Labour needs to answer the question, “What will Britain look like after five years of a Miliband government?” The Tories already have their one word answer “chaos”, but what is Labour’s? Fairer? Safer? Kinder? If people don’t know what exactly Miliband wants the country to look like, then the Tories will find it easier to paint a vote for Labour as a “risk”.
I'm going to be racking my brain for the one (or perhaps two, three or four) word answer I'd like to see.

I thought "inclusive prosperity" was quite a good phrase.

Nations need to ensure both that economic growth takes place and that it is broadly shared.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... rosperity/

"Trickle down economics" has failed, basically. The UK isn't the only developed nation thrashing around trying to work out where we go from here. That's the problem with striking out in a completely new direction - there's no word for it yet, so how do you describe to people what you are trying to do when there aren't any shortcuts? In 1979 no one knew what Thatcherism was and what they were voting for, they just knew they were fed up with how things were. I don't see right now as being much different. Everything Ed Miliband says shows me he has a fair idea of what has gone wrong with our economy and our society over the last 35 years. Understanding the problem is the first step to finding a solution. The Tories don't even recognize there's anything wrong, which is why they are unlikely to win power ever again. I hope people will give Ed Miliband a chance, because when it counts - hacking, Syria, energy companies - he's shown that he will come down on the side of ordinary people rather than the vested interests. Our country has certainly gone wrong somewhere when a Church of England plea to think of the poor when voting is being sneeringly dismissed by Tories as some kind of left-wing propaganda as if Christian thinking, evolved from the teachings of Christ over 2000 years ago, has been influenced by Labour Party ethos and not the other way round!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:59 pm

citizenJA wrote:
giselle97 wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote: Not half - if gets any honest answers from Osborne, frankly I'll probably die of shock. He's asked all of the right questions (and there's certainly more than 5 there). But it's incendiary stuff that'll have the government squirming. I'm glad it is public, although I expect the meeja (the finest one can buy) to try and bury the letter.
I'd like to Tweet that letter but, as with all of the Labour Press announcements, there is no Tweet shortcut or proper Share. What does everyone else do in that instance pleas?
Does this link provide you with an what you need? Apologies if not.

https://www.tumblr.com/register/follow/labourpress

Diane Rayburn ‏@dimayray now
Letter from Ed Balls to Osborne re HSBC
http://press.labour.org.uk/post/11127614" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not a very catching headline, but hopefully it'll get passed around.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:01 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Correction it's 82 pages. Clear statements on Britain's membership of the EU (in) on devolution of powers to the regions, carbon-free economy by 2030, hugely important announcements on apprenticeships and post-16 education, etc. etc.

And with a coherent thread that says that prosperity doesn't depend on the very wealthy rather on the ordinary folk. Everyone is a wealth creator.

I'm not saying everyone has to agree with these policies, but they are clear, rational, implementable policies that merit wide discussion.

They did exactly the same with Burnham's Health & Social Care policy proposals ... reduced to a pathetic exchange about percentage points of privatisation and completely missing the big issues and ideas.

We do still need some overarching vision though - something that encapsulates what all of these policies are trying to do in a way that people can 'get'.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:05 pm

Willow904 wrote:
I thought "inclusive prosperity" was quite a good phrase.

Nations need to ensure both that economic growth takes place and that it is broadly shared.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... rosperity/
"Trickle down economics" has failed, basically. The UK isn't the only developed nation thrashing around trying to work out where we go from here. That's the problem with striking out in a completely new direction - there's no word for it yet, so how do you describe to people what you are trying to do when there aren't any shortcuts? In 1979 no one knew what Thatcherism was and what they were voting for, they just knew they were fed up with how things were. I don't see right now as being much different. Everything Ed Miliband says shows me he has a fair idea of what has gone wrong with our economy and our society over the last 35 years. Understanding the problem is the first step to finding a solution. The Tories don't even recognize there's anything wrong, which is why they are unlikely to win power ever again. I hope people will give Ed Miliband a chance, because when it counts - hacking, Syria, energy companies - he's shown that he will come down on the side of ordinary people rather than the vested interests. Our country has certainly gone wrong somewhere when a Church of England plea to think of the poor when voting is being sneeringly dismissed by Tories as some kind of left-wing propaganda as if Christian thinking, evolved from the teachings of Christ over 2000 years ago, has been influenced by Labour Party ethos and not the other way round!

Hah! I was just thinking that 'prosperity' needed to feature somehow ... and in a way that brings out the wider sense of prosper - not just monetary. I think it would need to be less academic sounding than 'inclusive prosperity' though. Will keep racking ....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:05 pm

Rednorth wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?
Those staunch labourites Ant and Dec voted Tory in 2010, and in the same article they said they could not see Miliband as PM, they also rubbished Cameron. Today we have the Church of England, the so called 'Conservative Party at Prayer' openly attacking a Tory PM. Which of those do you think is more significant?

Yesterday you were complaining that all Labour did was announce policies. Those policies are the results of the policy review. Two documents have been published on the review, One Nation Economy and One Nation Society. They're online, look them up. It frankly doesn't take much research
They voted Tory for the one and only time in 2010 after a lifetime of voting Labour and describing themselves as 'staunch Labour'. Allow them one lapse, do, this isn't the Petrograd Soviet. Despite disliking Cameron and not wanting to vote Tory again, they couldn't see what Labour were offering.

I didn't comment on the Church of England. I don't see the point's relevance here. Is it more important than Ant and Dec, frankly I doubt it given the habits of today's digital congregations, but even if it is, so what? it's not going to vote Labour, and that was the point of my post.

To say I complained that all Labour did was announce policies is a silly simplification of my post. I complained they released policies without (seemingly) a coherent overall narrative, and that the presentation of those announcements was piecemeal and amateurish.

My question about the policy review was rhetorical. The review was trumpeted at the time as signaling a new direction for the party in the wake of Blairism. For it to live up to that and impact on the party's election prospects it needed to be consistent, substantial, and profound. It should have been the moment when the party shifted the focus on to its core policies, and announced in suitably grandiose fashion, not a daily dribble of policies to a backdrop of reheated 19th one-nation Tory slogans.

After a few posts, I see this forum is somewhat tribalist and less interested in discussing Labour's election prospects and how they could be improved so much as a back-slapping echo chamber. By all means carry on. Despite the kind of global capitalist catastrophe that was supposed to usher in an epoch of socialism, the nominally left wing party can't scrape together a decent election poll lead.

After the election, slapping yourself on the back will be all that's left. Sadly, many of us will be picking up bodies as a consequence.

Ah, come on! That's not fair. I asked you yesterday what political party you might like better - your conscience is your own. I read your posts yesterday. I responded to you. Did you happen to see it? No way would I ask someone to vote against their conscience. You sounded genuinely concerned & I thought voting Labour may not be what you should do. I take individual consciences very seriously. It matters. It matters for everyone. Let's keep a dialogue open. We learn from each other.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:05 pm

No point really.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:06 pm

Rednorth wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?
Those staunch labourites Ant and Dec voted Tory in 2010, and in the same article they said they could not see Miliband as PM, they also rubbished Cameron. Today we have the Church of England, the so called 'Conservative Party at Prayer' openly attacking a Tory PM. Which of those do you think is more significant?

Yesterday you were complaining that all Labour did was announce policies. Those policies are the results of the policy review. Two documents have been published on the review, One Nation Economy and One Nation Society. They're online, look them up. It frankly doesn't take much research
They voted Tory for the one and only time in 2010 after a lifetime of voting Labour and describing themselves as 'staunch Labour'. Allow them one lapse, do, this isn't the Petrograd Soviet. Despite disliking Cameron and not wanting to vote Tory again, they couldn't see what Labour were offering.

I didn't comment on the Church of England. I don't see the point's relevance here. Is it more important than Ant and Dec, frankly I doubt it given the habits of today's digital congregations, but even if it is, so what? it's not going to vote Labour, and that was the point of my post.

To say I complained that all Labour did was announce policies is a silly simplification of my post. I complained they released policies without (seemingly) a coherent overall narrative, and that the presentation of those announcements was piecemeal and amateurish.

My question about the policy review was rhetorical. The review was trumpeted at the time as signaling a new direction for the party in the wake of Blairism. For it to live up to that and impact on the party's election prospects it needed to be consistent, substantial, and profound. It should have been the moment when the party shifted the focus on to its core policies, and announced in suitably grandiose fashion, not a daily dribble of policies to a backdrop of reheated 19th one-nation Tory slogans.

After a few posts, I see this forum is somewhat tribalist and less interested in discussing Labour's election prospects and how they could be improved so much as a back-slapping echo chamber. By all means carry on. Despite the kind of global capitalist catastrophe that was supposed to usher in an epoch of socialism, the nominally left wing party can't scrape together a decent election poll lead.

After the election, slapping yourself on the back will be all that's left. Sadly, many of us will be picking up bodies as a consequence.

Hi Red North

Please don't depart. The trouble is if you say things like

To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

it doesn't leave the rest of us anywhere to go. The point is if you respect others' views and then they'll respect yours. But your view isn't de facto correct. It's your view.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk · 7h 7 hours ago
Here’s me for @commentisfree on how Labour’s campaign could sharpen things up in the final 80 days http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Some of the points and suggestions in his piece are useful ... I think your 'shapeless' probably fits with this para:
Now Labour is swimming in bits and pieces of policy – but the problem now is that it lacks a cohesive narrative that frames those policies in something bigger. Labour needs to answer the question, “What will Britain look like after five years of a Miliband government?” The Tories already have their one word answer “chaos”, but what is Labour’s? Fairer? Safer? Kinder? If people don’t know what exactly Miliband wants the country to look like, then the Tories will find it easier to paint a vote for Labour as a “risk”.
I'm going to be racking my brain for the one (or perhaps two, three or four) word answer I'd like to see.
I thought "inclusive prosperity" was quite a good phrase.

Nations need to ensure both that economic growth takes place and that it is broadly shared.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... rosperity/
"Trickle down economics" has failed, basically. The UK isn't the only developed nation thrashing around trying to work out where we go from here. That's the problem with striking out in a completely new direction - there's no word for it yet, so how do you describe to people what you are trying to do when there aren't any shortcuts? In 1979 no one knew what Thatcherism was and what they were voting for, they just knew they were fed up with how things were. I don't see right now as being much different. Everything Ed Miliband says shows me he has a fair idea of what has gone wrong with our economy and our society over the last 35 years. Understanding the problem is the first step to finding a solution. The Tories don't even recognize there's anything wrong, which is why they are unlikely to win power ever again. I hope people will give Ed Miliband a chance, because when it counts - hacking, Syria, energy companies - he's shown that he will come down on the side of ordinary people rather than the vested interests. Our country has certainly gone wrong somewhere when a Church of England plea to think of the poor when voting is being sneeringly dismissed by Tories as some kind of left-wing propaganda as if Christian thinking, evolved from the teachings of Christ over 2000 years ago, has been influenced by Labour Party ethos and not the other way round!

Maggie and her lot were always wittering on about Trickle down'. It didn't work. It's been proved it over and over again.
Then they started repeating the mantra in the States. My daughter who's a rabid republican was raving about how it was going to turn things around but it didn't work any better over there.
It's just rich people's way of waving money in front of our noses and saying, now you see it, now you don't. More fool you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:17 pm

Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Rednorth wrote:I see ex-Labour supporter Noel Gallagher is quoted today as 'not knowing what Labour stands for anymore'. Yesterday it was staunch Labourites Ant & Dec saying the same thing. Okay, these people aren't brains of Britain but they are examples of what I find over and and over again. Ordinary people, in temperament if not in means, and of modest political commitment (ie: not party men) are simply not enthused or inspired enough to win Labour the next election. To them Labour looks shapeless, nondescript and vacillating.

Why?

Becuase it is.

If level-pegging sounds like a success given we're still not far on from the crisis, remember this is the worst recovery in 300 years, and taking place against against a backdrop of the end of the NHS & Welfare State and a thoroughly discredited capital class. A left of centre party should be waltzing home in such circumstances.

You can't just blame it all on the media, the media has always been hostile to Labour but for the Blair years.

Where the fuck is Cruddas and his policy review? has it been consigned to the dustbin of history?

Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk · 7h 7 hours ago
Here’s me for @commentisfree on how Labour’s campaign could sharpen things up in the final 80 days http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Some of the points and suggestions in his piece are useful ... I think your 'shapeless' probably fits with this para:
Now Labour is swimming in bits and pieces of policy – but the problem now is that it lacks a cohesive narrative that frames those policies in something bigger. Labour needs to answer the question, “What will Britain look like after five years of a Miliband government?” The Tories already have their one word answer “chaos”, but what is Labour’s? Fairer? Safer? Kinder? If people don’t know what exactly Miliband wants the country to look like, then the Tories will find it easier to paint a vote for Labour as a “risk”.
I'm going to be racking my brain for the one (or perhaps two, three or four) word answer I'd like to see.
I thought "inclusive prosperity" was quite a good phrase.

Nations need to ensure both that economic growth takes place and that it is broadly shared.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... rosperity/
"Trickle down economics" has failed, basically. The UK isn't the only developed nation thrashing around trying to work out where we go from here. That's the problem with striking out in a completely new direction - there's no word for it yet, so how do you describe to people what you are trying to do when there aren't any shortcuts? In 1979 no one knew what Thatcherism was and what they were voting for, they just knew they were fed up with how things were. I don't see right now as being much different. Everything Ed Miliband says shows me he has a fair idea of what has gone wrong with our economy and our society over the last 35 years. Understanding the problem is the first step to finding a solution. The Tories don't even recognize there's anything wrong, which is why they are unlikely to win power ever again. I hope people will give Ed Miliband a chance, because when it counts - hacking, Syria, energy companies - he's shown that he will come down on the side of ordinary people rather than the vested interests. Our country has certainly gone wrong somewhere when a Church of England plea to think of the poor when voting is being sneeringly dismissed by Tories as some kind of left-wing propaganda as if Christian thinking, evolved from the teachings of Christ over 2000 years ago, has been influenced by Labour Party ethos and not the other way round!

: Ed-Miliband-and-Margaret--018.jpg (64.72 KiB) Viewed 8826 times

Could Ed Miliband be Labour's Margaret Thatcher?
Ed Miliband has long been fascinated by the conviction and charisma of the Iron Lady – and there are intriguing similarities in their records in opposition and radical spirit
'Ed wants to break the consensus. What attracts him to Thatcherism is the insurgency.'

Andy Beckett
16 January 2013
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-thatcher

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 17 Feb, 2015 8:22 pm

Tories accused of hiding 'totally shocking' report into NHS management

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 52011.html#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;