Thursday 18th September 2014

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:47 pm

Jeez... the Guardian really has lost the plot. I posted twice about the fact that they haven't put an AS blog for today - both posts disappeared.

The last one said that the previous one got pulled because it complained that the blog hadn't appeared...and that's gone now too.

Sensitive little souls aren't they?

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:51 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Jeez... the Guardian really has lost the plot. I posted twice about the fact that they haven't put an AS blog for today - both posts disappeared.

The last one said that the previous one got pulled because it complained that the blog hadn't appeared...and that's gone now too.

Sensitive little souls aren't they?

It'd be nice to have a chill out area. It's getting pretty nasty on the live blog.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:51 pm

[quote="howsillyofme1]
I too am a bit baffled by epehmerid's post as I have exhibited no hostility to the 'Yes' side at all but have received a bit of ad hominem in return. I lived in Scotland for many years, many of my friends are voting for Independence and I am sympathetic to the emotional side[/quote]

Maybe I can shine a little light on this. Yes, there have been ad hom attacks on both sides (I got plenty after I suggested Irv was a steaming great hypocrite) but I suspect that is not what is getting under Ephe's skin. I have noticed one poster in particular who has tended to suggest that the Yes campaigners must all be off their heads on a variety of substances; now I'm fairly sure that person is saying that only in jest but to some (myself included) jokes about addiction and/or mental health issues really grate. Could it be that this was, for Ephe, the final straw?

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:53 pm

Temulkar wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: Sorry but I'm baffled.
I have seen very little of these accusations articulated here, on this board. I have seen them over at the Guardian and indeed have been subjected to it myself.
Are we saying that posters on this board cannot express their feelings? I'm upset and angry that the Scots are jeopardising MY (and my grandkids) future for a silver spun ideal that I have no say in. That has made me hostile to giving them everything they want. Tough cookie. Am I not allowed to say that?
I'm off if that's the case, because I too thought this was a place where we could share thoughts and ideas - and find support when needed. Seems not, and that only approved ideas and opinions are welcome.
The black dog has over taken me again. Won't be back for a while
Bye.
Deep breath everybody.

The debate has brought out the best and worst in people in a large number of places, and FTN should remain above the fray. We're all intelligent people, and we all need to articulate our feelings and thoughts in a manner that others shouldn't find threatening or potentially offensive. All us here are bound by what we have in common and our differences need to be respected.

Now let's move on.
I wonder is this how revolution begins?

When the run on Northern Rock happened way back when, my late father texted me with the words 'Marx was right! This is the end of Capitalism.'

Today is one of the aftershocks of that banking crisis which has never really gone away. Whatever the vote, we are seeing historical process in action. In 30 or 40 years maybe historians will be able to get some perspective on what is happening now. One thing is certain History will not view Cameron kindly.

Not a view I've seen elsewhere, I have to say. I think that the Tories in Westminster will see Dave as a very unsafe pair of hands, at best, and react accordingly regardless of the result. Add in two by elections where the Tories are likely to be stuffed and the scene is set for May 2015.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:54 pm

JackPranker wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Jeez... the Guardian really has lost the plot. I posted twice about the fact that they haven't put an AS blog for today - both posts disappeared.

The last one said that the previous one got pulled because it complained that the blog hadn't appeared...and that's gone now too.

Sensitive little souls aren't they?
It'd be nice to have a chill out area. It's getting pretty nasty on the live blog.

Well, quite. It's like being in a room with a swarm of angry wasps.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:57 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
JackPranker wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Jeez... the Guardian really has lost the plot. I posted twice about the fact that they haven't put an AS blog for today - both posts disappeared.

The last one said that the previous one got pulled because it complained that the blog hadn't appeared...and that's gone now too.

Sensitive little souls aren't they?
It'd be nice to have a chill out area. It's getting pretty nasty on the live blog.
Well, quite. It's like being in a room with a swarm of angry wasps.

However angry the delivery, I did chortle a little when I saw the Godwin-esque term, "Yestapo".

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:59 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote: Deep breath everybody.

The debate has brought out the best and worst in people in a large number of places, and FTN should remain above the fray. We're all intelligent people, and we all need to articulate our feelings and thoughts in a manner that others shouldn't find threatening or potentially offensive. All us here are bound by what we have in common and our differences need to be respected.

Now let's move on.
I wonder is this how revolution begins?

When the run on Northern Rock happened way back when, my late father texted me with the words 'Marx was right! This is the end of Capitalism.'

Today is one of the aftershocks of that banking crisis which has never really gone away. Whatever the vote, we are seeing historical process in action. In 30 or 40 years maybe historians will be able to get some perspective on what is happening now. One thing is certain History will not view Cameron kindly.
Not a view I've seen elsewhere, I have to say. I think that the Tories in Westminster will see Dave as a very unsafe pair of hands, at best, and react accordingly regardless of the result. Add in two by elections where the Tories are likely to be stuffed and the scene is set for May 2015.

If Dave breaks the Union Ernst I think it will mean an early General Election and probably Labour landslide, and there are those on the Tory benches who would welcome that to purge the left wing of their party. I think Dave may last till monday and a recall, but wont survive the vote of no confidence that will be tabled. The lib dems will leave a tory minority which will then face repeated no confidence votes. Paralysed govt for eight months or early general election would be the only choices.

It would be the first time a government has fallen since 79, ironically it was the SNP who did that too.

If it's a no vote then Dave will stumble on I guess, but wouldn't put money on it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:06 pm

JackPranker wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
JackPranker wrote: I was ridiculing (Lord) Dan Snow's statement about those looking to the future being charlatans. If you think anyone sane believes Salmond belongs in the company of Ghandi and Dr King you have it wrong. Seriously wrong.

I'm somewhat lacking my usual sense of humour today. That cartoon (and others) are not helping. *sigh*

But Jack,why are the cartoons anymore depressing/offensive etc than cameron portrayed as a condomhead/little boy blue thing,Ed M as a skeletal panda,and all of the other irreverent satirical political cartoons?
I bet if we ever get to the point of a EU ref ,cheered on by Farage there will be a vast number of cartoons of a similar nature.It's what they do.
Are the English depicted as a nation of condom wearers?

David Cameron quite often is, yes.

Please, the idea that Salmond is subject to unusualy mocking treatment by cartoonists and satirists really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:09 pm

The final poll of the campaign puts "no" ahead by 53-47, incidentally.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:14 pm

JackPranker wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
JackPranker wrote: I was ridiculing (Lord) Dan Snow's statement about those looking to the future being charlatans. If you think anyone sane believes Salmond belongs in the company of Ghandi and Dr King you have it wrong. Seriously wrong.

I'm somewhat lacking my usual sense of humour today. That cartoon (and others) are not helping. *sigh*

But Jack,why are the cartoons anymore depressing/offensive etc than cameron portrayed as a condomhead/little boy blue thing,Ed M as a skeletal panda,and all of the other irreverent satirical political cartoons?
I bet if we ever get to the point of a EU ref ,cheered on by Farage there will be a vast number of cartoons of a similar nature.It's what they do.
Are the English depicted as a nation of condom wearers?

Gawd.I counted 6 haggises plus Salmond,so that's 7.You don't really think that the cartoonist is therefore depicting or inferring that the entire population of Scotland are haggis/lemmings jumping over a cliff?
I sure as hell wouldn't be upset if I saw a cartoon with Cameron and 6 others drawn(satirically)as condom heads.Or mini pandas,or whatever.
It isn't really a grave insult to every living Scot.Just a political cartoon.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:18 pm

Temulkar wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote: I wonder is this how revolution begins?

When the run on Northern Rock happened way back when, my late father texted me with the words 'Marx was right! This is the end of Capitalism.'

Today is one of the aftershocks of that banking crisis which has never really gone away. Whatever the vote, we are seeing historical process in action. In 30 or 40 years maybe historians will be able to get some perspective on what is happening now. One thing is certain History will not view Cameron kindly.
Not a view I've seen elsewhere, I have to say. I think that the Tories in Westminster will see Dave as a very unsafe pair of hands, at best, and react accordingly regardless of the result. Add in two by elections where the Tories are likely to be stuffed and the scene is set for May 2015.
If Dave breaks the Union Ernst I think it will mean an early General Election and probably Labour landslide, and there are those on the Tory benches who would welcome that to purge the left wing of their party. I think Dave may last till monday and a recall, but wont survive the vote of no confidence that will be tabled. The lib dems will leave a tory minority which will then face repeated no confidence votes. Paralysed govt for eight months or early general election would be the only choices.

It would be the first time a government has fallen since 79, ironically it was the SNP who did that too.

If it's a no vote then Dave will stumble on I guess, but wouldn't put money on it.

I tend to disagree about the GE thing,or even the Cameron resigning bit.Just can't see him letting go.Anyway,we all know that it will be Ed Milibands' fault,whatever the outcome.With a side helping of blame for Darling and Brown.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:21 pm

I see the Mail are reporting that Andy Murray is apparently voting Yes. This bit:

But with the vote on a knife-edge it may be seen by millions of his loyal English fans as a betrayal of Britain, the country he has represented in both the Olympics (above) and the Davis Cup.

Wonder if that includes the numbers of English 'fans' who continually painted him as Scottish when he was not doing well instead of British?

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:22 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:David Cameron quite often is, yes.

Please, the idea that Salmond is subject to unusualy mocking treatment by cartoonists and satirists really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Look to the left of the cartoon - they're not all Alex Salmond, are they?

As I said, I'm not feeling particularly humorous today. I'm feeling rather fatigued with the constant sniping, not only online but as the only Scotsman in the room. I've just had the pleasure of the Chief Exec bellowing out that no one will notice if there are riots in Glasgow considering it'll be Friday when the results come out.* Of course, I probably deserve it as I'm bound to harbour secret feelings of hatred towards the English considering I've lived here for over 30 years.

Rebecca: Brown is depicting Salmond convincing the nation to jump off a cliff. A nation of haggises. Why on earth wouldn't you view it as insulting as that's exactly what it is and what it's meant to be be. Gilray wasn't trying to please anyone and neither is Brown (his depiction of Sharon eating Palestinian babies wasn't trying to entertain either).

Perhaps attitudes are a little febrile at the moment. It's a terrifying moment in Scotland's history.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:23 pm

Temulkar wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote: I wonder is this how revolution begins?

When the run on Northern Rock happened way back when, my late father texted me with the words 'Marx was right! This is the end of Capitalism.'

Today is one of the aftershocks of that banking crisis which has never really gone away. Whatever the vote, we are seeing historical process in action. In 30 or 40 years maybe historians will be able to get some perspective on what is happening now. One thing is certain History will not view Cameron kindly.
Not a view I've seen elsewhere, I have to say. I think that the Tories in Westminster will see Dave as a very unsafe pair of hands, at best, and react accordingly regardless of the result. Add in two by elections where the Tories are likely to be stuffed and the scene is set for May 2015.
If Dave breaks the Union Ernst I think it will mean an early General Election and probably Labour landslide, and there are those on the Tory benches who would welcome that to purge the left wing of their party. I think Dave may last till monday and a recall, but wont survive the vote of no confidence that will be tabled. The lib dems will leave a tory minority which will then face repeated no confidence votes. Paralysed govt for eight months or early general election would be the only choices.

It would be the first time a government has fallen since 79, ironically it was the SNP who did that too.

If it's a no vote then Dave will stumble on I guess, but wouldn't put money on it.

That's certainly a plausible scenario. Either way, Cameron will have 'lame duck' written all over him. If the Tories get shut before May 2015, they'll have an untried PM with no mandate whatsoever (see also Gordon Brown) and will lose badly. If he stays, it could be that they'll bide their time and ensure a defeat in order to be rid of him. Few Tory MPs will stand by him and his brand of Toryism which probably infuriates his backbenchers more than they hate socialism (or whatever Labour will offer prior to the election). Same result either way.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:24 pm

Oh, and now look what I get...

Your comments are currently being pre–moderated (why?)

They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh, and now look what I get...

Your comments are currently being pre–moderated (why?)

They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm

It's a shame that contributors to this blog have taken/caused offence, whether genuine or imagined. If this can happen between a group of like minded, tolerant & intelligent soul mates, then imagine what the aftermath in Scotland could be?
There have been some serious divisions created and some wounds that might take a generation to heal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:41 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I see the Mail are reporting that Andy Murray is apparently voting Yes. This bit:

But with the vote on a knife-edge it may be seen by millions of his loyal English fans as a betrayal of Britain, the country he has represented in both the Olympics (above) and the Davis Cup.

Wonder if that includes the numbers of English 'fans' who continually painted him as Scottish when he was not doing well instead of British?

Hi,he hasn't got a vote himself.He made a tweet in the small hours,hinting a view on the subject ending with "Let's do this"

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:42 pm

JackPranker wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:David Cameron quite often is, yes.

Please, the idea that Salmond is subject to unusualy mocking treatment by cartoonists and satirists really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Look to the left of the cartoon - they're not all Alex Salmond, are they?

As I said, I'm not feeling particularly humorous today. I'm feeling rather fatigued with the constant sniping, not only online but as the only Scotsman in the room. I've just had the pleasure of the Chief Exec bellowing out that no one will notice if there are riots in Glasgow considering it'll be Friday when the results come out.* Of course, I probably deserve it as I'm bound to harbour secret feelings of hatred towards the English considering I've lived here for over 30 years.

Rebecca: Brown is depicting Salmond convincing the nation to jump off a cliff. A nation of haggises. Why on earth wouldn't you view it as insulting as that's exactly what it is and what it's meant to be be. Gilray wasn't trying to please anyone and neither is Brown (his depiction of Sharon eating Palestinian babies wasn't trying to entertain either).

Perhaps attitudes are a little febrile at the moment. It's a terrifying moment in Scotland's history.

Hand on heart Jack,I would never get upset/angry/offended/insulted by any politically satirical cartoon.
Some are funny(to me),some not so funny,some boring.Maybe print one off and hang it in the loo if it's funny,maybe not give it another thought.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:42 pm

Afternoon all. Quote of the day from our glorious leader:

“I have to say that after the events I have been facing over the last few days, assassination would be a welcome release.”

Please form an orderly queue

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:46 pm

Rebecca wrote:
JackPranker wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
But Jack,why are the cartoons anymore depressing/offensive etc than cameron portrayed as a condomhead/little boy blue thing,Ed M as a skeletal panda,and all of the other irreverent satirical political cartoons?
I bet if we ever get to the point of a EU ref ,cheered on by Farage there will be a vast number of cartoons of a similar nature.It's what they do.
Are the English depicted as a nation of condom wearers?
Gawd.I counted 6 haggises plus Salmond,so that's 7.You don't really think that the cartoonist is therefore depicting or inferring that the entire population of Scotland are haggis/lemmings jumping over a cliff?
I sure as hell wouldn't be upset if I saw a cartoon with Cameron and 6 others drawn(satirically)as condom heads.Or mini pandas,or whatever.
It isn't really a grave insult to every living Scot.Just a political cartoon.

I've deleted it now Rebecca as Jack was offended.

As a Brit of Italian blood I've had my share of jokes about spaghetti eating surrender monkeys, Mafia members etc aimed at Italians, so should have realised how offensive the depiction of haggis and kilt s could be on such an emotive day.

Also, in response to Grim Squeaker referring to Ephemerid's ire.

The type of poster I referred to as probably being addled on dope are those who have been swearing, coming out with ridiculous statements about conspiracy theories and various other bits of twollop.
It just came as a shock also, to see some posters on Cif who have normally been enviably calm, reasonable and balanced coming out with posts that came close to bizarre.

As someone who has suffered mental health issues myself, including a diagnosis at an early age of OCD and anxiety, treatment as a juvenile at a London clinic and at the Maudsley and Friern Barnet in my teenage & early years I do know about mental health issues.
One of the reasons I gave up working at 50 was stress related and after what would be classed a breakdown, not the first, as well as the constant battle against the mental after effects of being abused as a child.

But am sorry if anyone is offended by my belief that edging into non prescription drugs is not good for one's mental health functioning even if some element of self medication is understandable.
Or that the apparent flight of edging into conspiracy theories like M15 have rigged it is a little odd.
Or that, like other posters here as we are all human, I do not always phrase things perfectly or to suit every posters world view or opinions.

But feelings are running high, people may think things are aimed at them personally even when they are not.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:47 pm

Hi guys.

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Scottish Independence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0#t=214

For some reason can't embed it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:09 pm

Lightening the subject:

An American I know - not Mr Ohso - wondered if Obama would get the blame for losing Scotland.

I said Dave would be working on it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:09 pm

I'm just hearing that UNISON Health workers have voted (convincingly) in favour of strike action.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:14 pm

Ah sod it. Group hug again. I'm feeling the weight of history on my shoulders and I'm no even voting.

Straws and camels, yahyah. It's often the way that the person on the receiving end of a blast may have been the least contributor. It's unfair on the recipient and it can make the blaster look positively unhinged.

I'm pure keechin' it, by the way. I've no idea which way it's going to go, or even which way I want it to go. To top it all I'm having my wisdom teeth extracted in hospital tomorrow morning, so whatever the result tomorrow is going to be honking.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:21 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh, and now look what I get...

Your comments are currently being pre–moderated (why?)

They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.

As I said yesterday Rog they let Rusty get away with murder (including running multi IDs) yet never put him into pre-mod, so something is definitely not kosher. I stand by my assessment of him being a CCHQ stooge, all the signs are there, but that doesn't preclude a Guardian link; I'm waiting for Rusbridger to declare for the Tories, I think it has only been the recent series of faux pas that has given him some pause for thought.

@Yahyah

Thanks for the response. I get that, and I too am puzzled at how some normally reasonable and balanced posters seem to have adopted zealotry as their credo. Picking up on AngryAsWell's post today, and one of mine earlier in the week, the danger is that we can inadvertently cause people to self-censor either by posting without heed to the consequences or by actively attacking; I'd hate to think anything I was saying would cause that in another (having experienced it myself this week) but, equally, having enough freedom to express reservations is healthy.

As Roger McGough once said, discretion is the better part of Valerie; perhaps emulating Valerie for a few days could be an idea?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:28 pm

JackPranker wrote: I've no idea which way it's going to go, or even which way I want it to go.

I'm not sure I do either.

On the one hand a yes may well hasten Cameron's demise rather quickly especially if his backbenchers turn on him for breaking up the Union but on the other I can't get round the fact that not having solved the currency issue means that yes might be a severe mistake.

It needs to be a decisive vote one way or t'other otherwise there's bitterness and recriminations for years to come.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:33 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh, and now look what I get...

Your comments are currently being pre–moderated (why?)

They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.
As I said yesterday Rog they let Rusty get away with murder (including running multi IDs) yet never put him into pre-mod, so something is definitely not kosher. I stand by my assessment of him being a CCHQ stooge, all the signs are there, but that doesn't preclude a Guardian link; I'm waiting for Rusbridger to declare for the Tories, I think it has only been the recent series of faux pas that has given him some pause for thought.

@Yahyah

Thanks for the response. I get that, and I too am puzzled at how some normally reasonable and balanced posters seem to have adopted zealotry as their credo. Picking up on AngryAsWell's post today, and one of mine earlier in the week, the danger is that we can inadvertently cause people to self-censor either by posting without heed to the consequences or by actively attacking; I'd hate to think anything I was saying would cause that in another (having experienced it myself this week) but, equally, having enough freedom to express reservations is healthy.

As Roger McGough once said, discretion is the better part of Valerie; perhaps emulating Valerie for a few days could be an idea?

I don't see how Rusbridger can stay with the Libdems,but has been markedly anti Labour.Maybe Tories with another leader?Or stick with the coaltion?No doubt time will tell.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:39 pm

Funny to think that the politicians will have two speeches ready. One for YES, and one for NO.

Dave's scriptwriters have compiled a long list of who to blame: Gordon will be turning down job offers; Osborne's got his socks off and is doing sums on the back of a fag packet, and Grayling's ringing Boris to see if the water cannon have turned up yet, and if they have can be borrow them. Boris meanwhile is polishing knives...

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:42 pm

Ooooh! I've just discovered that if you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page, on the Beta version of the guardian, you find the words "current version". Clicking on that gets you the Classic View. Odd choice of words to say "current version" as you'd think that that was what they were serving you but, hey, maybe the Beta version is the "future version" and we'd been slipping through a wormhole for the past couple of days but could reach the past which is now the present and... now my brain is tangling up...

Important thing: Don't like the Beta version of the graun? Scroll to bottom of page. Click "current version". Voilà! "Classic View" will be yours.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:43 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:This is an interesting article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 39756.html

It seems this will not end quickly.

Seems to me to be a very fair assessment. Independence is (technically) not guaranteed by a yes vote - it requires an act to be passed by the Westminster parliament. I doubt whether any party (apart from UKIP) would stick their necks out to block it though.
As for negotiating within 18 months with a GE in the way - I really don't think it's feasible - then there's EU negotiations. For the least disruptive changeover, I would think it prudent to delay actual independence until EU negotiations were complete.

Foggy here when I went to vote earlier in the day - seemed strangely appropriate.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:44 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Boris meanwhile is polishing knives...

Whenever I see Cameron on screen now I hear the Jaws theme in my head ...... they're all circling Dave, and the feeding frenzy won't be pretty! Must make sure I have plenty of popcorn to hand.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:45 pm

And when I joked about the water cannon, I hadn't read this:

'Vote Yes – or else': Polling station graffiti sparks accusations of voter intimidation in Scotland

http://www.independent.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, sorry if I offended anyone

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:48 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Boris meanwhile is polishing knives...
Whenever I see Cameron on screen now I hear the Jaws theme in my head ...... they're all circling Dave, and the feeding frenzy won't be pretty! Must make sure I have plenty of popcorn to hand.

When he stood on the door of no 10 and said he thought he'd be rather good at it, or words to that effect, little did he know.

And as my lovely dad would be chortling right now. Serve the bastard right!

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 3:02 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And when I joked about the water cannon, I hadn't read this:

'Vote Yes – or else': Polling station graffiti sparks accusations of voter intimidation in Scotland

http://www.independent.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, sorry if I offended anyone

Just in case anyone should doubt it, there's a picture on the Graun referendum blog.

https://twitter.com/jackiebmsp/status/5 ... 36/photo/1

Of course there are tweets accusing the 'no' campaign of doing it!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 3:10 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:And when I joked about the water cannon, I hadn't read this:

'Vote Yes – or else': Polling station graffiti sparks accusations of voter intimidation in Scotland

http://www.independent.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, sorry if I offended anyone
Just in case anyone should doubt it, there's a picture on the Graun referendum blog.

https://twitter.com/jackiebmsp/status/5 ... 36/photo/1

Of course there are tweets accusing the 'no' campaign of doing it!

Reading those Tweets is like listening to a roomful of fractious five years olds....Or am I being unkind to 5 year olds? Probably.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 3:20 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:And when I joked about the water cannon, I hadn't read this:

'Vote Yes – or else': Polling station graffiti sparks accusations of voter intimidation in Scotland

http://www.independent.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, sorry if I offended anyone
Just in case anyone should doubt it, there's a picture on the Graun referendum blog.

https://twitter.com/jackiebmsp/status/5 ... 36/photo/1

Of course there are tweets accusing the 'no' campaign of doing it!
Reading those Tweets is like listening to a roomful of fractious five years olds....Or am I being unkind to 5 year olds? Probably.

For a little light relief, try this one:
https://twitter.com/SeonagM/status/5125 ... 76/photo/1

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 3:40 pm

@JackPranker

Well, all the best for tomorrow with the teeth.

I've been having a nap - but I'm glad that, on awakening, I've found peace and harmony in the ascendency.

I'm in two minds as to what I would like to happen tomorrow. A "Yes" would certainly be a smack in the chops (sorry!) for David Cameron but I'm not convinced that it wouldn't also be bad for Scotland which, incidentally, I'd be sorry to see leave the UK. I'd be happier about a possible "Yes" if Alex Salmond wasn't so slippery. He, in my opinion, thinks it's all about him.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:00 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote: Just in case anyone should doubt it, there's a picture on the Graun referendum blog.

https://twitter.com/jackiebmsp/status/5 ... 36/photo/1

Of course there are tweets accusing the 'no' campaign of doing it!
Reading those Tweets is like listening to a roomful of fractious five years olds....Or am I being unkind to 5 year olds? Probably.
For a little light relief, try this one:
https://twitter.com/SeonagM/status/5125 ... 76/photo/1

Thanks.

I like twofers.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:04 pm

PorFavor wrote:@JackPranker

Well, all the best for tomorrow with the teeth.

I've been having a nap - but I'm glad that, on awakening, I've found peace and harmony in the ascendency.

I'm in two minds as to what I would like to happen tomorrow. A "Yes" would certainly be a smack in the chops (sorry!) for David Cameron but I'm not convinced that it wouldn't also be bad for Scotland which, incidentally, I'd be sorry to see leave the UK. I'd be happier about a possible "Yes" if Alex Salmond wasn't so slippery. He, in my opinion, thinks it's all about him.

[My bold] Yes I've thought the same quite a few times over the last couple of months...Led an Independent Scotland with all the kudos that produces or [if he resigns] failed politician.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:06 pm

They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.

You wait till they block your IP so you can't even report the trolling. The trolls are a permanent fixture and the system is a sham - typical liberal arse covering and pandering to the far-right under the rubric of 'free speech'.

I wonder how many decent people have been binned for trying to combat the trolls and racists?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:14 pm

Mark Ferguson has tweeted that he was standing outside a better together shop(office)and was spat at.Classy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:14 pm

Work Programme "payment by results"

350,030 bonus payments to WP providers without proper validation ,up to June.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... me-figures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 4:15 pm

mikems wrote:
They allow arseholes like rustinpeace to troll their bitterness all over the place and stupid morons like Happy Chickie and yet for complaining that they haven't opened a blog I get this.
You wait till they block your IP so you can't even report the trolling. The trolls are a permanent fixture and the system is a sham - typical liberal arse covering and pandering to the far-right under the rubric of 'free speech'.

I wonder how many decent people have been binned for trying to combat the trolls and racists?

May I suggest anybody suffering this fate invests in a web proxy service. Get one IP address binned, pick another

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:03 pm

Frustrated by not having a vote on an election day,I made a box and pretended to.I don't know which way I voted because it was a secret ballot.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:06 pm

Sickness benefit claims reach a two year high. Apologies if this has been posted before. It's an interesting read.

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2014/09 ... -year-high" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edited to make the link work, hopefully. Thanks Adrian, mobile devices do daft things.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:08 pm

HindleA wrote:Frustrated by not having a vote on an election day,I made a box and pretended to.I don't know which way I voted because it was a secret ballot.

You'll know after 10:00 when the polls close and you can count it and declare the result.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:13 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
HindleA wrote:Frustrated by not having a vote on an election day,I made a box and pretended to.I don't know which way I voted because it was a secret ballot.
You'll know after 10:00 when the polls close and you can count it and declare the result.

Yes - please let us know the outcome. Even if it's a spoilt ballot.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:15 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
HindleA wrote:Frustrated by not having a vote on an election day,I made a box and pretended to.I don't know which way I voted because it was a secret ballot.
You'll know after 10:00 when the polls close and you can count it and declare the result.

Hope there isn't a recount.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 5:16 pm

HindleA wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
HindleA wrote:Frustrated by not having a vote on an election day,I made a box and pretended to.I don't know which way I voted because it was a secret ballot.
You'll know after 10:00 when the polls close and you can count it and declare the result.

Hope there isn't a recount.

Ha!