My main thought is that the more I see of the various opposition party leaders, the more impressed I am with all of them when compared to the public school boy immaturity of Cameron and Osborne and the miserably ineffective Clegg. I'm just hoping come 8th May our country will be run by grownups again. I'm fed up of the constant 'traps' for Labour set by Osborne when he should be concentrating on looking after the economy, and the personal attacks on Ed that Cameron seems to have mistaken for political debate. I don't think Ed will find it hard to act with a little more dignity and with Cameron out of the way it should be possible for PMQs to serve a useful purpose again.citizenJA wrote:Agreed.Willow904 wrote:There's a good article on deflation in the Indie by David Blanchflower. Deflation has already arrived in many parts of Europe and since the financial crash we've pretty much followed in the rest of Europe's footsteps, just several months behind. Pretending, as the Tory party is, that the UK is somehow unique is exasperating. Japan has been grappling with deflation for some time so we know it's a big problem and once in, it's hard to get out. This isn't a party political issue, it's bigger, more global than that. It would be nice to have a govt that will take this issue seriously instead of telling people deflation is a "good thing" because they're worried about being re-elected. It's not a "good thing" and it's something any govt of any ideological persuasion will struggle with. I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to have a govt willing to treat us like grown-ups, instead of talking down to us like we're ignorant kids. Seeing newscasters on the tv trotting out the Coalition line that a little bit of deflation is fine, just to protect the Coalition saved the economy from the incompetent Labour party narrative is really exasperating. I just thank our lucky stars that Cameron and Osborne weren't in charge when the global financial crash hit.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 78832.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm grateful the current Labour party leader is the person he is - intelligent, discerning, competent & an effective leader with a strong team. It's awful to know I'd get personally abused with words from others on different forums writing that information. I've no problems with anyone here in disagreement with what I've written about Ed Miliband & the Labour party. I'd like to know your thoughts.
Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
-
SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
"since the financial crash we've pretty much followed in the rest of Europe's footsteps, just several months behind."
We haven't. Since the Spring of 2013, the UK and the EZ have followed divergent paths.
We haven't. Since the Spring of 2013, the UK and the EZ have followed divergent paths.
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SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
The 'debates' look daft now.
A 2-7-5-3 format, with only the second and third debates in a real sense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32001383" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Miliband won't be appearing in any format where Cameron is not also there (as I said).
[NO. I am wrong. I apologise and hold my hands up for being an idiot. The third debate, will be a 'challengers' debate and will feature only the opposition parties: ie Miliband, Bennett, Sturgeon, Farage and the Welsh one].
The 7 way debate should be funny, indeed farcical.
A 2-7-5-3 format, with only the second and third debates in a real sense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32001383" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Miliband won't be appearing in any format where Cameron is not also there (as I said).
[NO. I am wrong. I apologise and hold my hands up for being an idiot. The third debate, will be a 'challengers' debate and will feature only the opposition parties: ie Miliband, Bennett, Sturgeon, Farage and the Welsh one].
The 7 way debate should be funny, indeed farcical.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sat 21 Mar, 2015 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 5852
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Site's playing up again can't reply or use full editor 
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Re. Self-employed people, NI, and the future.....
As things are now, anyone can be self-employed and claim some means-tested benefits based on income; they include working and child tax credits, Housing Benefit/LHA, Carers Allowance, and in certain circumstances, Income Support.
The changes Osborne is planning to bring in straight away change the quality of NI conts self-employed people pay - Class 2 conts currently will qualify you for parts of the pension (not all), conts-based ESA, but not conts-based JSA - the new idea seems to be bring them into line with Class 3 conts which are voluntary but do not qualify you for the same things.
Class 4 conts are paid by self-employed people who make profits over a certain amount (I think it's about £7,000) but they don't qualify you for any benefits other than the pension. It's all very confusing!
Of course, most of this won't matter if Universal Credit comes in. UC has an earnings floor for self-employed people, set at the equivalent of 35 hours at NMW. Claimants will be required to prove their business is sustainable and likely to earn more in order to qualify for UC at all.
Obviously, people who are now claiming the maximum in WTC/HB etc. but earn very little will not be able to continue.
DWP and HMRC will have the right to insist a business is closed down if it doesn't fulfil the criteria or the person won;t be able to get UC.
Osborne, in the Budget, had some stuff on this which he wants to bring in as soon as possible - not just the NI changes, but also the right of HMRC to close down a business it doesn't think is viable.
The Tories have always hated tax credits, and having already changed the hours required to claim them, they are now planning to insist on a certain level of income too.
As UC is not rolling out quickly enough (and it'll be a long time before the system can cope with self-employment) what Osborne is doing is making not worthwhile for anyone to go self-employed unless they can be certain they'll earn a decent wedge.
Despite the fact that 700,000 new self-employed people have helped the Tories to pretend that unemployment is falling, more than 400,000 of them are claiming in-work benefits. In 2010 there were 600,000 working people claiming HB - there are more than a million now, and a chunk of those are people who have been bullied into faux self-employment by DWP and work programme providers.
Whatever - the obvious direction of travel is to prevent self-employed people from being able to claim benefits at all, however poor they may be; replacing in-work benefits and tax credits with UC will ensure that people who are currently doing OK on them will have to pack in whatever they're doing and take any job DWP orders them to with a UC top-up and the constant threat of sanctions.
If UC ever happens UK-wide, conts-based JSA and basic rate conts-based ESA will cease to exist anyway - so that will mean all the basic benefits will be means-tested and subject to the whim of the jobcentre; and a workforce which has sporadic part-time work or self-employment neither of which will allow them to accumulate the NI conts they need for a full pension will leave a lot of people with not much pension either.
You need 30 qualifying years - ie. 30 years of Class1 or equivalent - of NI conts to qualify for the basic pension. In the longer term, unless this country gets people working in decent jobs with reasonable pay, there will be trouble further down the line.
As things are now, anyone can be self-employed and claim some means-tested benefits based on income; they include working and child tax credits, Housing Benefit/LHA, Carers Allowance, and in certain circumstances, Income Support.
The changes Osborne is planning to bring in straight away change the quality of NI conts self-employed people pay - Class 2 conts currently will qualify you for parts of the pension (not all), conts-based ESA, but not conts-based JSA - the new idea seems to be bring them into line with Class 3 conts which are voluntary but do not qualify you for the same things.
Class 4 conts are paid by self-employed people who make profits over a certain amount (I think it's about £7,000) but they don't qualify you for any benefits other than the pension. It's all very confusing!
Of course, most of this won't matter if Universal Credit comes in. UC has an earnings floor for self-employed people, set at the equivalent of 35 hours at NMW. Claimants will be required to prove their business is sustainable and likely to earn more in order to qualify for UC at all.
Obviously, people who are now claiming the maximum in WTC/HB etc. but earn very little will not be able to continue.
DWP and HMRC will have the right to insist a business is closed down if it doesn't fulfil the criteria or the person won;t be able to get UC.
Osborne, in the Budget, had some stuff on this which he wants to bring in as soon as possible - not just the NI changes, but also the right of HMRC to close down a business it doesn't think is viable.
The Tories have always hated tax credits, and having already changed the hours required to claim them, they are now planning to insist on a certain level of income too.
As UC is not rolling out quickly enough (and it'll be a long time before the system can cope with self-employment) what Osborne is doing is making not worthwhile for anyone to go self-employed unless they can be certain they'll earn a decent wedge.
Despite the fact that 700,000 new self-employed people have helped the Tories to pretend that unemployment is falling, more than 400,000 of them are claiming in-work benefits. In 2010 there were 600,000 working people claiming HB - there are more than a million now, and a chunk of those are people who have been bullied into faux self-employment by DWP and work programme providers.
Whatever - the obvious direction of travel is to prevent self-employed people from being able to claim benefits at all, however poor they may be; replacing in-work benefits and tax credits with UC will ensure that people who are currently doing OK on them will have to pack in whatever they're doing and take any job DWP orders them to with a UC top-up and the constant threat of sanctions.
If UC ever happens UK-wide, conts-based JSA and basic rate conts-based ESA will cease to exist anyway - so that will mean all the basic benefits will be means-tested and subject to the whim of the jobcentre; and a workforce which has sporadic part-time work or self-employment neither of which will allow them to accumulate the NI conts they need for a full pension will leave a lot of people with not much pension either.
You need 30 qualifying years - ie. 30 years of Class1 or equivalent - of NI conts to qualify for the basic pension. In the longer term, unless this country gets people working in decent jobs with reasonable pay, there will be trouble further down the line.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Re. Self-employed people, NI, and the future.....
As things are now, anyone can be self-employed and claim some means-tested benefits based on income; they include working and child tax credits, Housing Benefit/LHA, Carers Allowance, and in certain circumstances, Income Support.
The changes Osborne is planning to bring in straight away change the quality of NI conts self-employed people pay - Class 2 conts currently will qualify you for parts of the pension (not all), conts-based ESA, but not conts-based JSA - the new idea seems to be bring them into line with Class 3 conts which are voluntary but do not qualify you for the same things.
Class 4 conts are paid by self-employed people who make profits over a certain amount (I think it's about £7,000) but they don't qualify you for any benefits other than the pension. It's all very confusing!
Of course, most of this won't matter if Universal Credit comes in. UC has an earnings floor for self-employed people, set at the equivalent of 35 hours at NMW. Claimants will be required to prove their business is sustainable and likely to earn more in order to qualify for UC at all.
Obviously, people who are now claiming the maximum in WTC/HB etc. but earn very little will not be able to continue.
DWP and HMRC will have the right to insist a business is closed down if it doesn't fulfil the criteria or the person won;t be able to get UC.
Osborne, in the Budget, had some stuff on this which he wants to bring in as soon as possible - not just the NI changes, but also the right of HMRC to close down a business it doesn't think is viable.
The Tories have always hated tax credits, and having already changed the hours required to claim them, they are now planning to insist on a certain level of income too.
As UC is not rolling out quickly enough (and it'll be a long time before the system can cope with self-employment) what Osborne is doing is making not worthwhile for anyone to go self-employed unless they can be certain they'll earn a decent wedge.
Despite the fact that 700,000 new self-employed people have helped the Tories to pretend that unemployment is falling, more than 400,000 of them are claiming in-work benefits. In 2010 there were 600,000 working people claiming HB - there are more than a million now, and a chunk of those are people who have been bullied into faux self-employment by DWP and work programme providers.
Whatever - the obvious direction of travel is to prevent self-employed people from being able to claim benefits at all, however poor they may be; replacing in-work benefits and tax credits with UC will ensure that people who are currently doing OK on them will have to pack in whatever they're doing and take any job DWP orders them to with a UC top-up and the constant threat of sanctions.
If UC ever happens UK-wide, conts-based JSA and basic rate conts-based ESA will cease to exist anyway - so that will mean all the basic benefits will be means-tested and subject to the whim of the jobcentre; and a workforce which has sporadic part-time work or self-employment neither of which will allow them to accumulate the NI conts they need for a full pension will leave a lot of people with not much pension either.
You need 30 qualifying years - ie. 30 years of Class1 or equivalent - of NI conts to qualify for the basic pension. In the longer term, unless this country gets people working in decent jobs with reasonable pay, there will be trouble further down the line.
As things are now, anyone can be self-employed and claim some means-tested benefits based on income; they include working and child tax credits, Housing Benefit/LHA, Carers Allowance, and in certain circumstances, Income Support.
The changes Osborne is planning to bring in straight away change the quality of NI conts self-employed people pay - Class 2 conts currently will qualify you for parts of the pension (not all), conts-based ESA, but not conts-based JSA - the new idea seems to be bring them into line with Class 3 conts which are voluntary but do not qualify you for the same things.
Class 4 conts are paid by self-employed people who make profits over a certain amount (I think it's about £7,000) but they don't qualify you for any benefits other than the pension. It's all very confusing!
Of course, most of this won't matter if Universal Credit comes in. UC has an earnings floor for self-employed people, set at the equivalent of 35 hours at NMW. Claimants will be required to prove their business is sustainable and likely to earn more in order to qualify for UC at all.
Obviously, people who are now claiming the maximum in WTC/HB etc. but earn very little will not be able to continue.
DWP and HMRC will have the right to insist a business is closed down if it doesn't fulfil the criteria or the person won;t be able to get UC.
Osborne, in the Budget, had some stuff on this which he wants to bring in as soon as possible - not just the NI changes, but also the right of HMRC to close down a business it doesn't think is viable.
The Tories have always hated tax credits, and having already changed the hours required to claim them, they are now planning to insist on a certain level of income too.
As UC is not rolling out quickly enough (and it'll be a long time before the system can cope with self-employment) what Osborne is doing is making not worthwhile for anyone to go self-employed unless they can be certain they'll earn a decent wedge.
Despite the fact that 700,000 new self-employed people have helped the Tories to pretend that unemployment is falling, more than 400,000 of them are claiming in-work benefits. In 2010 there were 600,000 working people claiming HB - there are more than a million now, and a chunk of those are people who have been bullied into faux self-employment by DWP and work programme providers.
Whatever - the obvious direction of travel is to prevent self-employed people from being able to claim benefits at all, however poor they may be; replacing in-work benefits and tax credits with UC will ensure that people who are currently doing OK on them will have to pack in whatever they're doing and take any job DWP orders them to with a UC top-up and the constant threat of sanctions.
If UC ever happens UK-wide, conts-based JSA and basic rate conts-based ESA will cease to exist anyway - so that will mean all the basic benefits will be means-tested and subject to the whim of the jobcentre; and a workforce which has sporadic part-time work or self-employment neither of which will allow them to accumulate the NI conts they need for a full pension will leave a lot of people with not much pension either.
You need 30 qualifying years - ie. 30 years of Class1 or equivalent - of NI conts to qualify for the basic pension. In the longer term, unless this country gets people working in decent jobs with reasonable pay, there will be trouble further down the line.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Sorry for the double post - site playing up at my end....
I am 14 years clean and sober today!
Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.
Laters!
I am 14 years clean and sober today!
Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.
Laters!
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
-
yahyah
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 7535
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 8:29 am
- Location: Being rained on in west Wales
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Ephie - people will need 35 qualifying years for the coalition's new flat rate pension starting next year.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I'm getting the SQuirreL - as happened a few days ago.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Um...isn't there supposed to be a 5-way opposition leaders debate? That will include Miliband without Cameron. If you mean there isn't going to be a head-to-head then, yeah, obviously the only reason Cameron entered back into the fray of negotiations was to avoid Miliband going ahead with it without him. It's still clear he's running scared of debating Miliband one on one. I'm glad Labour has been offered both debates. Just because Cameron doesn't want to do them, shouldn't mean Ed is denied opportunities to state Labour's case. It's far from ideal but it will do.SpinningHugo wrote:There is going to be no debate where Miliband appears without Cameron I see.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Congratulations, my friend! Enjoy!ephemerid wrote:Sorry for the double post - site playing up at my end....
I am 14 years clean and sober today!
Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.
Laters!
-
yahyah
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 7535
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 8:29 am
- Location: Being rained on in west Wales
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Have a good timeephemerid wrote:Sorry for the double post - site playing up at my end....
I am 14 years clean and sober today!
Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.
Laters!
-
SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
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AnatolyKasparov
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15756
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Fair amount of truth in that, SH.
Labour are clearly gambling that people seeing more of Ed relatively "straight up" and unfiltered by a hostile MSM, will improve voters opinion of him.
Based on how he often does quite well out of party conference season (I am aware it didn't go quite as planned last year) it may not be a totally baseless belief.
I agree with Farage that the broadcasters have backed down rather a lot here, btw. But still, Cameron has been forced to agree to a debate and that sets a welcome precedent.
Labour are clearly gambling that people seeing more of Ed relatively "straight up" and unfiltered by a hostile MSM, will improve voters opinion of him.
Based on how he often does quite well out of party conference season (I am aware it didn't go quite as planned last year) it may not be a totally baseless belief.
I agree with Farage that the broadcasters have backed down rather a lot here, btw. But still, Cameron has been forced to agree to a debate and that sets a welcome precedent.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I'm not surprised. He couldn't allow the small parties a platform without the right to reply. They are all taking votes from Labour and none of them have been above lying about Labour to do so. He needs to be able to correct any misrepresentations from the others directly. I'm not sure the equal footing with the pygmies, as you put it, is an issue. Presenting himself as above other leaders would be more damaging imo.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Apologies if this doesn't work.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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utopiandreams
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2306
- Joined: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 4:20 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Regarding improvement of Miliband's public perception with more coverage, I'm inclined to agree. Albeit I inserted a joke from the Tory Whip's Handbook of Backbenchers' Questions I was being serious when I said that I thought he was growing into the role. I particular noticed during PMQs recently when he avoided joining Cameron in ad hominem attacks, not that I blame him when he does. Maybe his speech has improved too and his voice appears to have gained gravitas.
I would close my eyes if I couldn't dream.
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SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
FWIIW I think Miliband appearing alongside the likes of Wood and Bennett, without Cameron in there as well, is a serious mistake.
But, I have been proven hopelessly wrong in my assessment of what Labour would agree to, and so hopefully I'll be wrong about that as well.
Self belief doesn't seem to be a Miliband problem by the looks of things. He really must believe that more exposure is a good thing.
But, I have been proven hopelessly wrong in my assessment of what Labour would agree to, and so hopefully I'll be wrong about that as well.
Self belief doesn't seem to be a Miliband problem by the looks of things. He really must believe that more exposure is a good thing.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I'm never amazed by your posts. The leadership debates broadcasters & Labour agreed to do are specifically about each participant being on equal footing. It's the law. How are Clegg & Dave going to play an anti-establishment card? The thought of it just laughed 'danger for Miliband' off the site. Your assessments are your own. Don't pretend to know what I think of them, please. Thank you.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
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SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I think this is all wishful thinking. Optimism bias that we all suffer from as human beings. You see it all the time as we focus on the positive polls, and seek to downplay the negative ones. I don't think there is any evidence of his growing into the job or speaking better. He is what he is.utopiandreams wrote:Regarding improvement of Miliband's public perception with more coverage, I'm inclined to agree. Albeit I inserted a joke from the Tory Whip's Handbook of Backbenchers' Questions I was being serious when I said that I thought he was growing into the role. I particular noticed during PMQs recently when he avoided joining Cameron in ad hominem attacks, not that I blame him when he does. Maybe his speech has improved too and his voice appears to have gained gravitas.
There is something for everyone in this.
1. Miliband gets to appear in all 5, the only person who does.
2. Cameron avoids the debates he didn't want, and gets the silly one he had agreed to (the 7 way).
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
4. The minor parties get to stand as equals with Miliband in the third debate, and get to portray him as part of the establishment who are responsible for all our woes. The nationalists in particular are getting far more airtime than their national vote shares deserve. (PC only get a total vote around the same as the population of Reading and are in two debates!).
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SpinningHugo
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 4211
- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I am not sure you have understood me.citizenJA wrote:I'm never amazed by your posts. The leadership debates broadcasters & Labour agreed to do are specifically about each participant being on equal footing. It's the law. How are Clegg & Dave going to play an anti-establishment card? The thought of it just laughed 'danger for Miliband' off the site. Your assessments are your own. Don't pretend to know what I think of them, please. Thank you.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
I am referring to the third debate ( the five way one). Cameron and Clegg won't be there.
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utopiandreams
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2306
- Joined: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 4:20 pm
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I think that's where you and I agree, SpinningHugo. He seems to have grown in confidence.SpinningHugo wrote:...
Self belief doesn't seem to be a Miliband problem by the looks of things. He really must believe that more exposure is a good thing.
Edit:... and then you go and prove me wrong...
I would close my eyes if I couldn't dream.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Haven't we been through all this before?
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Grant Shapps faces legal action from constituent he threatened to sue
Constituent of Tory party chairman says he is now consulting lawyers over dispute about Michael Green pseudonym Facebook post
JHunt has the solemnity of spoiled brat teenager.
Constituent of Tory party chairman says he is now consulting lawyers over dispute about Michael Green pseudonym Facebook post
'Jeremy Hunt attacked Labour, the Guardian and the BBC, who reported the story, for an “attack” on Shapps. He tweeted: “His sin not 2 use pseudonym but 2 write books about how 2 create wealth – shock horror.”'In his Facebook posting, Archer had noted that [Tory Party Chairman Grant Shapps MP] had called fellow MP Mark Reckless “a liar” for defecting to Ukip. Archer went on to question how honest Shapps had been when he had previously appeared as online marketeer “Mr Green”.
In response, letters from the... [Tory Party Chairman & MP's] lawyers, sent last October and November, demanded that Archer retract what was described as a “defamatory allegation” and offer “proposals for compensating our client in lieu of damages and [an] undertaking to indemnify our client in full for his legal costs”.
However, after the story broke about the existence of the audio evidence, Shapps admitted that he had “screwed up” on the dates and therefore incorrectly denied working as Green while he was in Westminster.
The prime minister has defended Shapps while the health secretary Jeremy Hunt attacked Labour, the Guardian and the BBC, who reported the story, for an “attack” on Shapps. He tweeted: “His sin not 2 use pseudonym but 2 write books about how 2 create wealth – shock horror.”
Archer... “It is incredible that Mr Shapps has ignored my calls for an in-person apology, and it is shocking that David Cameron has taken no action against this wrongdoing on his watch.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hael-green" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JHunt has the solemnity of spoiled brat teenager.
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frightful_oik
- Whip
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:45 am
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Works fine. I like it when the waiterJustMom wrote:Apologies if this doesn't work.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
.Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
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ohsocynical
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Couldn't agree more. We've seen them all misquote Labour.Willow904 wrote:I'm not surprised. He couldn't allow the small parties a platform without the right to reply. They are all taking votes from Labour and none of them have been above lying about Labour to do so. He needs to be able to correct any misrepresentations from the others directly. I'm not sure the equal footing with the pygmies, as you put it, is an issue. Presenting himself as above other leaders would be more damaging imo.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Thanks it was the waiter that cracked me up.frightful_oik wrote:Works fine. I like it when the waiterJustMom wrote:Apologies if this doesn't work.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
The opposition only debate is undoubtedly a risk for EM - even I can see that.
But he probably sees it as a decent opportunity to rebut SNP/Plaid "Red Tory" jibes, Green "Labour signed up to exactly the same austerity as the Tories" fibs and (let's not forget) Farage's anti-EU posturing - and that is an area where most of the others will be on Ed's side.
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
But he probably sees it as a decent opportunity to rebut SNP/Plaid "Red Tory" jibes, Green "Labour signed up to exactly the same austerity as the Tories" fibs and (let's not forget) Farage's anti-EU posturing - and that is an area where most of the others will be on Ed's side.
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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utopiandreams
- Speaker of the House
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Doesn't he just, citizenJA. It's that smirk you just wish to slap off his face. Something both Grant and IDS have too. He certainly has chutzpah though, judging by his performance at Leveson, although Gove gave us a more than ample display too. Perhaps in Jeremy's case I should just call it plain lying. Why else would Cameron have promoted an homeopathic geek to Health Secretary?citizenJA wrote:...
JHunt has the solemnity of spoiled brat teenager.
I'll be doing some reminiscing over the last five years during the build up to the election. We must not forget!
I would close my eyes if I couldn't dream.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
"I am referring to the third debate" No, you weren't. I understand you fine.SpinningHugo wrote:I am not sure you have understood me.citizenJA wrote:I'm never amazed by your posts. The leadership debates broadcasters & Labour agreed to do are specifically about each participant being on equal footing. It's the law. How are Clegg & Dave going to play an anti-establishment card? The thought of it just laughed 'danger for Miliband' off the site. Your assessments are your own. Don't pretend to know what I think of them, please. Thank you.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
I am referring to the third debate ( the five way one). Cameron and Clegg won't be there.
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LadyCentauria
- Speaker of the House
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Evenin' all 
This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I think I'd like to turn this on its head and ask why the leaders of the Tory Party and the Lib Dems feel that they do not have to be answerable in a wider democratic forum. I understand that the power dynamic that they appear to be claiming but at that time in the election cycle they are leaders of political parties seeking election and should be portrayed/ seen as such.SpinningHugo wrote:I think this is all wishful thinking. Optimism bias that we all suffer from as human beings. You see it all the time as we focus on the positive polls, and seek to downplay the negative ones. I don't think there is any evidence of his growing into the job or speaking better. He is what he is.utopiandreams wrote:Regarding improvement of Miliband's public perception with more coverage, I'm inclined to agree. Albeit I inserted a joke from the Tory Whip's Handbook of Backbenchers' Questions I was being serious when I said that I thought he was growing into the role. I particular noticed during PMQs recently when he avoided joining Cameron in ad hominem attacks, not that I blame him when he does. Maybe his speech has improved too and his voice appears to have gained gravitas.
There is something for everyone in this.
1. Miliband gets to appear in all 5, the only person who does.
2. Cameron avoids the debates he didn't want, and gets the silly one he had agreed to (the 7 way).
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
4. The minor parties get to stand as equals with Miliband in the third debate, and get to portray him as part of the establishment who are responsible for all our woes. The nationalists in particular are getting far more airtime than their national vote shares deserve. (PC only get a total vote around the same as the population of Reading and are in two debates!).
Evening all
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
OK, well I clearly don't understand you then.citizenJA wrote:"I am referring to the third debate" No, you weren't. I understand you fine.SpinningHugo wrote:I am not sure you have understood me.citizenJA wrote:I'm never amazed by your posts. The leadership debates broadcasters & Labour agreed to do are specifically about each participant being on equal footing. It's the law. How are Clegg & Dave going to play an anti-establishment card? The thought of it just laughed 'danger for Miliband' off the site. Your assessments are your own. Don't pretend to know what I think of them, please. Thank you.
I am referring to the third debate ( the five way one). Cameron and Clegg won't be there.
How do you think Cameron and Clegg will be playing any cards in a debate they won't be at? Won't the debate be between the five participants?
Do you not think that Bennett, Farage, Sturgeon and the Welsh One will try to portray Miliband as part of the establishment against which they are (in their different ways) the insurgents against?
It was as the insurgent candidate that Clegg managed to 'win' the debates in 2010. It is this anti-Westminster position that all these fringe parties have in common, and they'll use that against Miliband.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sat 21 Mar, 2015 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Of course.mikems wrote:Haven't we been through all this before?
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Being in that position in the first place is a tactical failure.AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
I don't think he should have agreed in any event. The story of these debates (and the campaign) is going to be all about Insurgents v Westminster. The minor parties get coverage in the campaign they don't get outside it. The last 5 years has been all about the SNP, Ukips, Greens, and Russell Brand. The long term decline of the big two "establishment" parties has accelerated alarmingly. (Labour polling 33-34 at this point would be disastrous, if the Tories were not also polling 33-34). It is a very dangerous thing to agree to. Not so much because of the SNP (there is nothing to be lost in going for broke against the Nats now) but because of Ukip (especially) and the Greens.
Miliband does have self confidence though, and that is a good trait to have. Bennett is useless (luckily), but Farage and Sturgeon are dangerous.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I an very wary of that 5-way debate but agree that EM needs to be there to defend his party.AnatolyKasparov wrote:The opposition only debate is undoubtedly a risk for EM - even I can see that.
But he probably sees it as a decent opportunity to rebut SNP/Plaid "Red Tory" jibes, Green "Labour signed up to exactly the same austerity as the Tories" fibs and (let's not forget) Farage's anti-EU posturing - and that is an area where most of the others will be on Ed's side.
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
FWIW I was at Steve Richards Rock-n-Roll Politics show last night & he spoke of how EM has total confidence in his beliefs. He said the reason why his 2014 conference speech was unusual was because the week prior to it, Ed had spoken with Axlerod. His previous drafts of the speech had been really good but then he spoke with Axlerod who told him to relay the anecdotes about meeting 'real' people so the previous drafts went out the window & that strange speech was delivered.
SR also spoke of the practice sessions EM was having with Ali Campbell in preparation for these debates. AC as we know is an entirely different kind of beast from Axlerod so hopefully, EM will take AC's sessions on board & ignore any 'helpful' advice from Axlerod.....
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Your questions in this latest post are your own to answer - I can't do it for you. I'm not the commentator theorising with amazement the dangers Ed Miliband has agreed to by debating pygmys, you are.SpinningHugo wrote:OK, well I clearly don't understand you then.citizenJA wrote:"I am referring to the third debate" No, you weren't. I understand you fine.SpinningHugo wrote: I am not sure you have understood me.
I am referring to the third debate ( the five way one). Cameron and Clegg won't be there.
How do you think Cameron and Clegg will be playing any cards in a debate they won't be at? Won't the debate be between the five participants?
Do you not think that Bennett, Farage, Sturgeon and the Welsh One will try to portray Miliband as part of the establishment against which they are (in their different ways) the insurgents against?
It was as the insurgent candidate that Clegg managed to 'win' the debates in 2015. It is this anti-Westminster position that all these fringe parties have in common, and they'll use that against Miliband.
Please re-read the original SpinningHugo post inspiring my response.
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utopiandreams
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Okay, SpinningHugo, I'll try again. I think this is one thing on which we both agree.SpinningHugo wrote:...
Miliband does have self confidence though, and that is a good trait to have...
I would close my eyes if I couldn't dream.
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AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
The leadership debates have been a major part of the Miliband / Labour strategy, they know Ed shines in debate & Q&A sessions. Ed has wanted to keep as low a profile as possible and (perhaps) saw the LD as the place to take centre stage right on time. Going back to The Seven Year Hitch by Damian McBride gives a little insight to this, Ed wants at least 2 terms so did not want to waste 5 years in the shadows, but with a well worn profile by the time of the election. (not to mention the little fact of building a manifesto!)SpinningHugo wrote:Being in that position in the first place is a tactical failure.AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
I don't think he should have agreed in any event. The story of these debates (and the campaign) is going to be all about Insurgents v Westminster. The minor parties get coverage in the campaign they don't get outside it. The last 5 years has been all about the SNP, Ukips, Greens, and Russell Brand. The long term decline of the big two "establishment" parties has accelerated alarmingly. (Labour polling 33-34 at this point would be disastrous, if the Tories were not also polling 33-34). It is a very dangerous thing to agree to. Not so much because of the SNP (there is nothing to be lost in going for broke against the Nats now) but because of Ukip (especially) and the Greens.
Miliband does have self confidence though, and that is a good trait to have. Bennett is useless (luckily), but Farage and Sturgeon are dangerous.
The Seven Year Hitch (2012)
(Final paragraph for those who don't want to read it all)
"That’s if Gordon’s theory is right. We’ll wait and see. But in the meantime, anyone who complains that Ed Miliband isn’t ubiquitous enough should remember that he was in Washington with GB that weekend, he heard the same mantra, and he knows that by the time of the next election, he will already have been 4½years in the job. So excuse him if he plays the long game when building his public profile. He’s smart is Ed Miliband."
Not taking part in the debates would have been a catastrophe, he needs the exposure & he need it now (partly his own fault if McBride is right in his theory) Don't worry about Farage and Sturgeon. Small fry.
I can't remember if you have seen him live Hugo? If not you need to - very, very impressive - and handsome
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yahyah
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
We're not afraid to 'empty chair' Tories in Ceredigion.
Absent Tory candidate should be in the chair on the right of the pic at the Aberystwyth hustings this week
Our Labour candidate Huw Thomas is in the middle.
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ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
It's becoming clear that when people see Ed in a setting other than photos of eating a bacon sandwich, they are pleasantly surprised.SpinningHugo wrote:willow904
See my correction.
I am amazed Miliband has agreed to this. Putting himself on an equal footing with the pygmies who can play the anti-establishment card against him is very dangerous.
But, he is the only one appearing in all five sessions.
Labour must calculate that more tv exposure of Miliband will be a vote winner. I am sure most on here will agree with that assessment.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Oh Pooh! forgot the link
The Seven Year Hitch
http://www.socialeurope.eu/2012/10/the- ... ear-hitch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Seven Year Hitch
http://www.socialeurope.eu/2012/10/the- ... ear-hitch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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yahyah
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
There have been some right old ding dongs between Plaid & the Greens in Wales recently so Wood & Bennett may not come across as sisterly as their fans may like.
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ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Mike Smithson retweeted
Opinium Research @OpiniumResearch 2 mins2 minutes ago
Opinium/Observer: Post #budget bounce for Tories 36% (+3), Lab 33% (-2), LD 7% (n/c), UKIP 14% (n/c), Greens 6% (-1) http://bit.ly/1FQ7bAj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Opinium Research @OpiniumResearch 2 mins2 minutes ago
Opinium/Observer: Post #budget bounce for Tories 36% (+3), Lab 33% (-2), LD 7% (n/c), UKIP 14% (n/c), Greens 6% (-1) http://bit.ly/1FQ7bAj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
Evening!fedup59 wrote:I think I'd like to turn this on its head and ask why the leaders of the Tory Party and the Lib Dems feel that they do not have to be answerable in a wider democratic forum. I understand that the power dynamic that they appear to be claiming but at that time in the election cycle they are leaders of political parties seeking election and should be portrayed/ seen as such.SpinningHugo wrote:I think this is all wishful thinking. Optimism bias that we all suffer from as human beings. You see it all the time as we focus on the positive polls, and seek to downplay the negative ones. I don't think there is any evidence of his growing into the job or speaking better. He is what he is.utopiandreams wrote:Regarding improvement of Miliband's public perception with more coverage, I'm inclined to agree. Albeit I inserted a joke from the Tory Whip's Handbook of Backbenchers' Questions I was being serious when I said that I thought he was growing into the role. I particular noticed during PMQs recently when he avoided joining Cameron in ad hominem attacks, not that I blame him when he does. Maybe his speech has improved too and his voice appears to have gained gravitas.
There is something for everyone in this.
1. Miliband gets to appear in all 5, the only person who does.
2. Cameron avoids the debates he didn't want, and gets the silly one he had agreed to (the 7 way).
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
4. The minor parties get to stand as equals with Miliband in the third debate, and get to portray him as part of the establishment who are responsible for all our woes. The nationalists in particular are getting far more airtime than their national vote shares deserve. (PC only get a total vote around the same as the population of Reading and are in two debates!).
Evening all
Current government are terrified the electorate will hold them responsible for five years of selling off assets not belonging to a political party but a nation, lying about VAT, lying about the NHS - using the Health & Social Care Act of 2012 to dismantle it.
Current government has used their five years in government to harass the disabled, those living, working, on the smallest incomes for the smallest wages & most insecure employment tenure. In short, the poorest have paid for tax breaks for corporations, fossil fuel companies, Tory donors, the financial sector & property portfolio investors benefiting from further housing inflation costs & no affordable home building.
Dave & Clegg have used their government to toss people out of their social housing by inventing a Spare Room Subsidy documented nowhere prior to the Tory-led coalition government but invented by them, known as the Bedroom Tax, in order to get more people into the private housing sector.
Honesty, integrity, decency, intelligence, compassion & sincerity combined with positive, strong, leadership demonstrated by Ed Miliband during the last five years will bring in a Labour government in May 2015.
Current government have no shame, no remorse & no credibility.
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).AngryAsWell wrote: Not taking part in the debates would have been a catastrophe, he needs the exposure & he need it now (partly his own fault if McBride is right in his theory) Don't worry about Farage and Sturgeon. Small fry.
I can't remember if you have seen him live Hugo? If not you need to - very, very impressive - and handsome
So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
I think that may be part of the reasoning. There is also the need to try anything to stop the usual drift back to the party in government that happens at this stage.RobertSnozers wrote: Given where the polls are, there's nothing to be gained by playing safe at this stage.
I don't expect any big changes from here on.
Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
SpinningHugo wrote:I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).AngryAsWell wrote: Not taking part in the debates would have been a catastrophe, he needs the exposure & he need it now (partly his own fault if McBride is right in his theory) Don't worry about Farage and Sturgeon. Small fry.
I can't remember if you have seen him live Hugo? If not you need to - very, very impressive - and handsome
So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.
Oh hang on, isn't that dangerous? Miliband attempting to stave off anti-establishment renegade Tory-LibDems?SpinningHugo -
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
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LadyCentauria
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
No-one seems to take Osborne to task for failing to miss the inflation target of 2% – not 'some indeterminate figure below 2%' but 2% for a reason. Yet I seem to remember headlines of 'inflation target missed again' whenever inflation was above 2%.Willow904 wrote:There's a good article on deflation in the Indie by David Blanchflower. Deflation has already arrived in many parts of Europe and since the financial crash we've pretty much followed in the rest of Europe's footsteps, just several months behind. Pretending, as the Tory party is, that the UK is somehow unique is exasperating. Japan has been grappling with deflation for some time so we know it's a big problem and once in, it's hard to get out. This isn't a party political issue, it's bigger, more global than that. It would be nice to have a govt that will take this issue seriously instead of telling people deflation is a "good thing" because they're worried about being re-elected. It's not a "good thing" and it's something any govt of any ideological persuasion will struggle with. I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to have a govt willing to treat us like grown-ups, instead of talking down to us like we're ignorant kids. Seeing newscasters on the tv trotting out the Coalition line that a little bit of deflation is fine, just to protect the Coalition saved the economy from the incompetent Labour party narrative is really exasperating. I just thank our lucky stars that Cameron and Osborne weren't in charge when the global financial crash hit.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 78832.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -
citizenJA wrote:SpinningHugo wrote:I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).AngryAsWell wrote: Not taking part in the debates would have been a catastrophe, he needs the exposure & he need it now (partly his own fault if McBride is right in his theory) Don't worry about Farage and Sturgeon. Small fry.
I can't remember if you have seen him live Hugo? If not you need to - very, very impressive - and handsome
So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.Oh hang on, isn't that dangerous? Miliband attempting to stave off anti-establishment renegade Tory-LibDems?SpinningHugo -
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
No, indeed the best format for Miliband would be one where he is with Clegg and Cameron (I know the last one is not a 'debate' really).
In that three way format Miliband gets to portray himself as the insurgent against the two establishment parties (in the way Clegg did in 2010, and the others will in the third 'challengers' debate).