Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Forum rules
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I remember TobyLatimer upbraiding me for one of my posts (can't remember what it was about) and saying that I'd think differently if I was in a state of terror over the next brown envelope which came through the letterbox. When I pointed out that, actually, I was he then suggested that I had "the wrong sort of condition" (without knowing anything about me in that way) to fit his criteria. (I obviously paraphrase.)
Some people are single-issue campaigners. He did make me laugh, though.
Goodnight, everyone.
Some people are single-issue campaigners. He did make me laugh, though.
Goodnight, everyone.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Night PFPorFavor wrote:I remember TobyLatimer upbraiding me for one of my posts (can't remember what it was about) and saying that I'd think differently if I was in a state of terror over the next brown envelope which came through the letterbox. When I pointed out that, actually, I was he then suggested that I had "the wrong sort of condition" (without knowing anything about me in that way) to fit his criteria. (I obviously paraphrase.)
Some people are single-issue campaigners. He did make me laugh, though.
Goodnight, everyone.
I miss his humour too.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I suppose politics need to be personal to some extent otherwise who would bother to vote.RobertSnozers wrote:I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?
Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?
So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.
I don't like the idea though of just voting for your own needs.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I think Toby is very disappointed in some of the rhetoric coming from Byrne, and more recently, Reeves. I don't blame him either - I feel the same way; but there was no real excuse for how he treated PF at the time. I thought he'd apologised but perhaps I'm mistaken.
I think the others - who talk a lot of sense the rest of the time - are losing their heads a bit over the referendum. I can understand why - I had a lot of hope that a Yes vote would be what the Scots went for, and I'm disappointed as are some of my friends. But that's done.
I get very passionate about things at times - I have done so here, and recently. I often get close to throwing my toys out of the pram - but I try to wind the film on a bit..... and I invariably find that if I make peace on one issue, even just agree to differ, for me there are usually more similarities with people than differences.
With Labour, I get so exasperated when they do something daft. I have a lot of time for Ed, and I think he has the makings of a statesman. But some of his cabinet let him down - Reeves is a case in point. "Tougher than the Tories" indeed.
I think the people who have lost it a bit assumed that Labour would support self-determination, and were annoyed when they not only didn't but saved Cameron's lardy arse for him - with the predictable result that Cameron would take the credit, then shit on them from on high by not doing what he promised. I'm not sure how the logic leads them to blame Labour for that, though....
Some of these issues make people very stroppy. This place and some of the people here are not immune. Me included, obviously.
I also think - and I have felt this on a few occasions - that people here can be tribal. Not often, but when it happens it's not nice.
This is not a place where criticism of Labour goes down very well - I think that's what upset Toby and Herons Flight more than anything else (correction - I know that for a fact). I have to say here that I often feel like saying something about some issue I have with Labour's stance on something-or-other, but don't - because I can't be doing with what can ensue at times.
I was quite close to leaving the other day. I still think that some of the things said about Yes campaigners were not fair and in some comments just wrong (and no, I'm going there again, so don't worry) and it was uncomfortable for me because I felt that I was quite isolated.
I think Robert Snozers put it well - I don't like Labour-bashing although I understand it; when it comes from a sincerely-held belief especially.
But I also think it's eminently justified to express a view on where Labour is failing without feeling as though I have to dodge brickbats.
It's not an unreasonable thing to ask in light of my experience. Which is, of course, entirely subjective - but there have been few times over the past few days when I have felt that s few people here have been projecting; less so than on CIF where some people I hold in the highest respect under normal circumstances have done the same thing. For every Ron and Lac, there's an opposite number - especially on the cartoon threads.
This is just stream-of-consciousness stuff. You can take it or leave it.
It's something we do in AA all the time - think up it, down it, through it, round it; then share our thoughts with the people who matter.
For me, this place matters and the people in it matter. That's all.
I think the others - who talk a lot of sense the rest of the time - are losing their heads a bit over the referendum. I can understand why - I had a lot of hope that a Yes vote would be what the Scots went for, and I'm disappointed as are some of my friends. But that's done.
I get very passionate about things at times - I have done so here, and recently. I often get close to throwing my toys out of the pram - but I try to wind the film on a bit..... and I invariably find that if I make peace on one issue, even just agree to differ, for me there are usually more similarities with people than differences.
With Labour, I get so exasperated when they do something daft. I have a lot of time for Ed, and I think he has the makings of a statesman. But some of his cabinet let him down - Reeves is a case in point. "Tougher than the Tories" indeed.
I think the people who have lost it a bit assumed that Labour would support self-determination, and were annoyed when they not only didn't but saved Cameron's lardy arse for him - with the predictable result that Cameron would take the credit, then shit on them from on high by not doing what he promised. I'm not sure how the logic leads them to blame Labour for that, though....
Some of these issues make people very stroppy. This place and some of the people here are not immune. Me included, obviously.
I also think - and I have felt this on a few occasions - that people here can be tribal. Not often, but when it happens it's not nice.
This is not a place where criticism of Labour goes down very well - I think that's what upset Toby and Herons Flight more than anything else (correction - I know that for a fact). I have to say here that I often feel like saying something about some issue I have with Labour's stance on something-or-other, but don't - because I can't be doing with what can ensue at times.
I was quite close to leaving the other day. I still think that some of the things said about Yes campaigners were not fair and in some comments just wrong (and no, I'm going there again, so don't worry) and it was uncomfortable for me because I felt that I was quite isolated.
I think Robert Snozers put it well - I don't like Labour-bashing although I understand it; when it comes from a sincerely-held belief especially.
But I also think it's eminently justified to express a view on where Labour is failing without feeling as though I have to dodge brickbats.
It's not an unreasonable thing to ask in light of my experience. Which is, of course, entirely subjective - but there have been few times over the past few days when I have felt that s few people here have been projecting; less so than on CIF where some people I hold in the highest respect under normal circumstances have done the same thing. For every Ron and Lac, there's an opposite number - especially on the cartoon threads.
This is just stream-of-consciousness stuff. You can take it or leave it.
It's something we do in AA all the time - think up it, down it, through it, round it; then share our thoughts with the people who matter.
For me, this place matters and the people in it matter. That's all.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
If my grandfather had just been concerned with his own needs, and the needs of his family, he would have shut up & meekly hoped to be picked for work at the wharf gates; but he fought for all, even though that ended up with him being blacklisted and unable to work there any longer. But his efforts were appreciated by others, and he was given the chance to train in a new field, and became a baker.ohsocynical wrote:I suppose politics need to be personal to some extent otherwise who would bother to vote.RobertSnozers wrote:I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.TheGrimSqueaker wrote: I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.
So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.
I don't like the idea though of just voting for your own needs.
If he had just been concerned with his own needs, and the needs of his family, during the War he could simply have done his own job (as a reserved occupation he was not called up) and then gone home. But he joined the Auxiliary Fire Service as a volunteer, fought the fires at the warehouses from which he had been blacklisted, came close enough to a flying V-1 later in the conflict that he could have touched it.
He wasn't concerned with his own needs, but fought for the rights of friends, family and strangers alike, to build a better life for all. In later life, an invalid dying slowly from emphysema, he remained every bit as passionate, every bit as engaged. I 'inherited' my politics (and my insatiable thirst for knowledge) from him; I also inherited the contempt with which he held those who undermined the fight. As today has gone on I have grown angrier (perhaps a healthier attitude than my earlier pessimism at people telling me to wake up, that I am blind, that I am being conned and should join with them.
Not all the Yes campaigners are the same, Ephe has shown that, but this very vocal minority are in danger of making a bad name for many sensible and well meaning people. Well in the spirit they have been showing this afternoon, with their tweets for #EverybodyCanFuckRightOffDay, they can fuck right off! I have no time for any group who concentrates on advancing their own interests at the expense of so many others, and then tries to claim they they are more socialist than me! It isn't a contest, it is about helping each other and, at the moment, they are helping nobody but themselves.
Apologies for the language but, as you can tell, they've got under my skin just a touch.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Well. What was that supposed to be about? It's what my mother would call a space filler.
I wonder if the 'journalist', was one of those that Huffington doesn't pay so any old crap will do.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 27400
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
- Location: Three quarters way to hell
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Excuse musings.
I developed my views at an early age,only on one issue have I changed my mind to any degree(assisted suicide)as far as I can recall.The only change I've made is perhaps being more tolerant of other views,a tolerance that only serves to amplify my own views.My disdain for the Tory party remains as ever gainsaying the "You'll be voting Tory by the time your thirty"refrain used throughout my youth.I wonder how many of the accusers of betrayal will retain their views.
I developed my views at an early age,only on one issue have I changed my mind to any degree(assisted suicide)as far as I can recall.The only change I've made is perhaps being more tolerant of other views,a tolerance that only serves to amplify my own views.My disdain for the Tory party remains as ever gainsaying the "You'll be voting Tory by the time your thirty"refrain used throughout my youth.I wonder how many of the accusers of betrayal will retain their views.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
It does look as though - in addition to some sensible folk going AWOL - there is an orchestrated BTL campaign to just trash Labour in a tone akin to the moronic end of the yesser spectrum. It will need to be fought.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- TechnicalEphemera
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2967
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:21 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
If you really want your blood pressure to rise he read what that tosser Jenkin (nepotism, non-entity loaded stooge) has written in the G.
If Miliband is smart he can secure devolved government and paint the Tories as corrupt despots.
If Miliband is smart he can secure devolved government and paint the Tories as corrupt despots.
Release the Guardvarks.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
.As I say, genuine question. If there are good reasons why tackling the orchestrated anti-Miliband campaign BTL will help, I'll happily reconsider my views
It needs to be fought by Labour reframing the political dialogue, by it expanding the ways that it communicates, by understanding that different forms of communication resonate with different sectors of the electorate, by accepting just how despicable their opponents are, by deploying bruisers when necessary, by getting the right people to deliver the right message in the right place for the right situation.
I don't say that we expend energy responding to the mass of tripe in the G - almost as much a source of shame as the BBC TV - but yes, in terms of an overall communication strategy, which Labour to date seem to lack (or at least I don't find it) it does indeed need to be fought.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
sorry that (above) sounds a bit pompous - such a tone not intended!
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.
So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.
I can too in a way, but what puzzles me is that this government has attacked and [excuse my language] shat on just about every section of society, barring the rich of course. Despite all that, Mr Ohso and I have been lucky so far. We haven't suffered at the hands of the DWP, have no children being educated and so far haven't been inconvenienced too badly by the NHS cuts and don't have a decent private pension that's been decimated, and so on.
We are though, suffering badly from stagnant interest rates and rising prices which necessitates selling hour house to give us enough to see out what life we have left.
Suppose Cameron promised to up the State pension substantially, but was going to carry on with all the other cuts whilst Ed Miliband said sod the pensioners we must sort out all the other problems first.
I would still vote for and encourage the Labour Party, because it's for the greater good.
Although some of it was a long time ago, I remember what it's like to struggle to pay the bills, go without a meal in order to make sure the kids have enough, and what it's like to be a full time carer to both parents and run a business at the same time.
It''s not much of a leap to end up as selfish as the men that rule us...And what sort of world is that to leave to the young?
So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.
I can too in a way, but what puzzles me is that this government has attacked and [excuse my language] shat on just about every section of society, barring the rich of course. Despite all that, Mr Ohso and I have been lucky so far. We haven't suffered at the hands of the DWP, have no children being educated and so far haven't been inconvenienced too badly by the NHS cuts and don't have a decent private pension that's been decimated, and so on.
We are though, suffering badly from stagnant interest rates and rising prices which necessitates selling hour house to give us enough to see out what life we have left.
Suppose Cameron promised to up the State pension substantially, but was going to carry on with all the other cuts whilst Ed Miliband said sod the pensioners we must sort out all the other problems first.
I would still vote for and encourage the Labour Party, because it's for the greater good.
Although some of it was a long time ago, I remember what it's like to struggle to pay the bills, go without a meal in order to make sure the kids have enough, and what it's like to be a full time carer to both parents and run a business at the same time.
It''s not much of a leap to end up as selfish as the men that rule us...And what sort of world is that to leave to the young?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Should hope not. Pompous is my thing!tinyclanger2 wrote:sorry that (above) sounds a bit pompous - such a tone not intended!
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
pompous dancing - I like it.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
Working on the wild side.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Given their joint constitutional venture before referendum day, did Cameron ring him on Friday morning and share his relief at the result? "No," says Miliband. Should he have done? He doesn't answer directly. "I don't care really. Nothing he does on this kind of thing surprises me. That is how he is."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.rebeccariots2 wrote:It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Yes - probably best to stay away. Rustinpeace is already there. Must be on full time pay with overtime / bonuses for the amount of time he puts in.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.rebeccariots2 wrote:It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.TheGrimSqueaker wrote: Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
Working on the wild side.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
TROLLS!
http://www.theguardian.com/science/head ... ife-trolls
Scores on the Dark Tetrad personality test revealed that trolls are, by far, more likely to have narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic personality traits.
So the next time you find yourself reeling over a particularly hateful comment on your favourite website, take some comfort in knowing that you’re just another anonymous pawn in the internet troll’s game. They’ve got some serious personal issues going on that they might not even realise
Before I retire for the night, the above is a good way of shutting up persistent and nasty trolls. I've done it a couple of times...
http://www.theguardian.com/science/head ... ife-trolls
Scores on the Dark Tetrad personality test revealed that trolls are, by far, more likely to have narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic personality traits.
So the next time you find yourself reeling over a particularly hateful comment on your favourite website, take some comfort in knowing that you’re just another anonymous pawn in the internet troll’s game. They’ve got some serious personal issues going on that they might not even realise
Before I retire for the night, the above is a good way of shutting up persistent and nasty trolls. I've done it a couple of times...
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Oh Rusty doesn't worry me, he doesn't understand the big words anyway; and, yes, he'll be working hard this week trying to spin things for his bosses.rebeccariots2 wrote:Yes - probably best to stay away. Rustinpeace is already there. Must be on full time pay with overtime / bonuses for the amount of time he puts in.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.rebeccariots2 wrote: It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.
We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
No, it is some of the others, people I used to respect, making a show of themselves. I'm trying to rise above it and hope they come to regret things when their heads are clearer.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.
Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- TechnicalEphemera
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2967
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:21 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I am guessing the Mail Poll isn't scientific.tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.
Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.
Release the Guardvarks.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
True. But it's very popular.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15829
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Its the sort of thing most people will say they support in a poll - "common sense" innit. Same with an English parliament.
Mind you, the same survey says twice as many people think Brown rather than Cameron did most to achieve a "no" vote.
Also a big margin thinks the three "main" party leaders *should* live up to their "vow" to Scotland.
Now, try making sense of all that
Mind you, the same survey says twice as many people think Brown rather than Cameron did most to achieve a "no" vote.
Also a big margin thinks the three "main" party leaders *should* live up to their "vow" to Scotland.
Now, try making sense of all that
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
- TechnicalEphemera
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2967
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:21 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Actually I think you are both right.tinyclanger2 wrote:.As I say, genuine question. If there are good reasons why tackling the orchestrated anti-Miliband campaign BTL will help, I'll happily reconsider my views
It needs to be fought by Labour reframing the political dialogue, by it expanding the ways that it communicates, by understanding that different forms of communication resonate with different sectors of the electorate, by accepting just how despicable their opponents are, by deploying bruisers when necessary, by getting the right people to deliver the right message in the right place for the right situation.
I don't say that we expend energy responding to the mass of tripe in the G - almost as much a source of shame as the BBC TV - but yes, in terms of an overall communication strategy, which Labour to date seem to lack (or at least I don't find it) it does indeed need to be fought.
It needs to be fought in the media and on social media. However nobody reads the comments in the Guardian.
I rarely post there, other than the odd quick drive-by. It can safely be ignored.
Today however Temulkar is on fire.
Release the Guardvarks.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Well, Cameron is crap - and a lot of people seem very willing to go along with his particular brand of crap ... don't ask me why, I really, really don't know.tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.
Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.
This fits a well established pattern of announcing a policy that is supposedly to fix one problem and then hijacking that policy to attach something entirely different - usually wholly vindictive and destructive - and then shouting abuse at Labour and the other parties when they can't support something that has been so twisted out of shape.
The gagging bill exemplifies this approach. Cameron vowed to deal with the scourge of lobbying ... what did we get - a bill that stifles charities and other people directed movements from expressing genuine concerns and campaigning.
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m
LAB lead moves to 5% in the S Times/YouGov poll
LAB 36% (+1)
CON 31% (-2)
UKIP 16% (+2)
LD 7% (-1)
GRN 5% (=)
Working on the wild side.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
We might be a bit crap, but we still don't deserve Cameron.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Cameron's attempt to hold on to power reminds me of someone trying to tickle a trout. The more you try to grab it the quicker it gets away. This Lynton strategy will backfire very badly for the tories if the opposition play the hand cleverly.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
We certainly don't deserve this.Unemployed man sets fire to job centre to get meal in police cells
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ob-6096469
... Gina Clayton, defending, said: “His benefits had been stopped for some reason and he hadn’t eaten for three days. He was simply desperate for some food. He went to the job centre to get his payments and lost his temper.
“He was aware that if he was arrested he would have been given food at the police station.”...
We can't survive another 5 years of this.
Working on the wild side.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I think Gordon knows exactly what he is doing. Dave has already forgotten the Scots. That is a big mistake. This ploy could very well end up with thousands of scots on the streets protesting.RobertSnozers wrote:I hope so. The Tories seem to have realised that they can get away with far more than they might have thought possible as long as they get the narrative right. The whole 'English votes' thing seems to be going down well and it's easy to paint opponents as not wanting to give the English their due. It's like 'manfeels' but for the South East.Temulkar wrote:Cameron's attempt to hold on to power reminds me of someone trying to tickle a trout. The more you try to grab it the quicker it gets away. This Lynton strategy will backfire very badly for the tories if the opposition play the hand cleverly.
And on the second part, though it pains me to say, HM opposition often don't seem to be able to play the hands their dealt all that cleverly
Dave has ignored the simple lesson of this referendum. Ultimate power resides in the people not in the Government.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I've been keeping out of the whole Scottish independence thing, because its felt like an argument that isn't really anything to do with me, as a Welsh person living in England, and I've felt like I don't really know enough about the ins and outs of Scottish politics to stick my oar in (I've only been there twice, and that was both for T in the Park).
But now its over I'm amazed at the Tories attempting to use it as a way of grabbing power for themselves in their so called English Parliament, do they have no idea how utterly two faced it makes them look to have been offering the Scots the moon on a stick just a few days ago, and then just one day later, once the danger has been abated, they're all "oh, the real issue is poor old disenfranchised England and how these awful Scots control us all." How can any voter, English, Welsh or Scottish ever trust anything they ever say again, when they have shown themselves to be such utter liars who will say literally anything to get your vote and then piss in you face the next day. I thought "no top down reorganisation of the NHS" was the ultimate bare faced electoral lie, but even that palls in the face of such utter contempt for the electorate as has been shown in the past few days. Labour, Greens, even bloody UKIP need to constantly remind the voters of all this over the next 8 months, how you can never ever trust a word these people say, as they will say anything to get your vote.
Also, I can't really see how they hope to get any of this through parliament in the dying eight months of this administration. I know the LibDems have just bent over for pretty much everything the Tories have wanted, but if there is one thing the Libs do give a shit about its electoral reform, and having been thwarted by the Tories on their two big dreams of proportional representation and an elected House of Lords, things they were willing to sacrifice their whole reputation for, I can't see them just nodding through some half baked Tory idea of an English parliament, the entire point of which seems to be to thwart a future Labour government which the Liberals still have some hope of being a part of. Even the Liberals aren't that stupid.
But now its over I'm amazed at the Tories attempting to use it as a way of grabbing power for themselves in their so called English Parliament, do they have no idea how utterly two faced it makes them look to have been offering the Scots the moon on a stick just a few days ago, and then just one day later, once the danger has been abated, they're all "oh, the real issue is poor old disenfranchised England and how these awful Scots control us all." How can any voter, English, Welsh or Scottish ever trust anything they ever say again, when they have shown themselves to be such utter liars who will say literally anything to get your vote and then piss in you face the next day. I thought "no top down reorganisation of the NHS" was the ultimate bare faced electoral lie, but even that palls in the face of such utter contempt for the electorate as has been shown in the past few days. Labour, Greens, even bloody UKIP need to constantly remind the voters of all this over the next 8 months, how you can never ever trust a word these people say, as they will say anything to get your vote.
Also, I can't really see how they hope to get any of this through parliament in the dying eight months of this administration. I know the LibDems have just bent over for pretty much everything the Tories have wanted, but if there is one thing the Libs do give a shit about its electoral reform, and having been thwarted by the Tories on their two big dreams of proportional representation and an elected House of Lords, things they were willing to sacrifice their whole reputation for, I can't see them just nodding through some half baked Tory idea of an English parliament, the entire point of which seems to be to thwart a future Labour government which the Liberals still have some hope of being a part of. Even the Liberals aren't that stupid.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Hello Tish - been missing you.Tish wrote:I've been keeping out of the whole Scottish independence thing, because its felt like an argument that isn't really anything to do with me, as a Welsh person living in England, and I've felt like I don't really know enough about the ins and outs of Scottish politics to stick my oar in (I've only been there twice, and that was both for T in the Park).
But now its over I'm amazed at the Tories attempting to use it as a way of grabbing power for themselves in their so called English Parliament, do they have no idea how utterly two faced it makes them look to have been offering the Scots the moon on a stick just a few days ago, and then just one day later, once the danger has been abated, they're all "oh, the real issue is poor old disenfranchised England and how these awful Scots control us all." How can any voter, English, Welsh or Scottish ever trust anything they ever say again, when they have shown themselves to be such utter liars who will say literally anything to get your vote and then piss in you face the next day. I thought "no top down reorganisation of the NHS" was the ultimate bare faced electoral lie, but even that palls in the face of such utter contempt for the electorate as has been shown in the past few days. Labour, Greens, even bloody UKIP need to constantly remind the voters of all this over the next 8 months, how you can never ever trust a word these people say, as they will say anything to get your vote.
Also, I can't really see how they hope to get any of this through parliament in the dying eight months of this administration. I know the LibDems have just bent over for pretty much everything the Tories have wanted, but if there is one thing the Libs do give a shit about its electoral reform, and having been thwarted by the Tories on their two big dreams of proportional representation and an elected House of Lords, things they were willing to sacrifice their whole reputation for, I can't see them just nodding through some half baked Tory idea of an English parliament, the entire point of which seems to be to thwart a future Labour government which the Liberals still have some hope of being a part of. Even the Liberals aren't that stupid.
I agree with pretty much all you say here. But whilst there may be some remaining Lib Dem members who still hold true to some of their former priorities and principles ... the yellow jellies they've got as ministers and mps seem to be perfectly able to forget about them and support the very worst excesses of Cameron and co.
You're right - if they have any jot of ethics, self respect or instinct for self preservation ... they would do the right thing and not support this blatant Tory power grab ... it's certainly not something that was in the coalition agreement (not that that's ever worried them before). But they don't inspire trust ... in fact that's the last thing they inspire.
Working on the wild side.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
If the government do ram through something as dumb as their backbenchers seem to be salivating for, it will be the end of a united England within a decade or two, never mind a United Kingdom. I'm very much in favour of investigating, consulting and planning for UK of nations and regions, but a gerrymandered first-past-the-post English parliament will lead to everywhere outside the south-east wanting to go their own way.
I still believe in a town called Hope
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
I do love this bloke.Martin Rowson @MartinRowson · 13h
Exhibition of Original Artwork from said Coalition Book up in @ConwayHall til end of October http://conwayhall.org.uk/martin-rowson-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 5% of last night's sales
@ConwayHall ...going to Proctology Dept in University College Hospital, to help them recognise a real bunch of arseholes when they see them
Working on the wild side.
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11208
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Hmm....anyone think that they might have thinking about this for a while?
Justice Secretary Grayling tells Scots MPs: Get off my lawn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -lawn.html
Wonder what he'll do if Labour say "So, what are you going to do if we vote against?"
Justice Secretary Grayling tells Scots MPs: Get off my lawn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -lawn.html
I love the fact that the Justice Secretary hasn't the first clue about the law.A senior Cabinet minister tells Scottish Labour MPs to get off his territory, in a dramatic escalation of the battle for the future of British democracy.
Chris Grayling, the Justice Secretary, accuses Labour of seeking to erase England from the map of the United Kingdom as he declares that Scottish MPs should be banned from voting on his legal reforms.
Wonder what he'll do if Labour say "So, what are you going to do if we vote against?"
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
You're not the first to be thinking that way. Take a look at this ...RogerOThornhill wrote:Hmm....anyone think that they might have thinking about this for a while?
Justice Secretary Grayling tells Scots MPs: Get off my lawn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -lawn.html
I love the fact that the Justice Secretary hasn't the first clue about the law.A senior Cabinet minister tells Scottish Labour MPs to get off his territory, in a dramatic escalation of the battle for the future of British democracy.
Chris Grayling, the Justice Secretary, accuses Labour of seeking to erase England from the map of the United Kingdom as he declares that Scottish MPs should be banned from voting on his legal reforms.
Wonder what he'll do if Labour say "So, what are you going to do if we vote against?"
Was this the real reason Cameron allowed the Scotland referendum?
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2014/09/2 ... eferendum/
Working on the wild side.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Aw, thanks, I have been reading every day, just felt I didn't really have anything to offer to the debate.rebeccariots2 wrote:
Hello Tish - been missing you.
I agree with pretty much all you say here. But whilst there may be some remaining Lib Dem members who still hold true to some of their former priorities and principles ... the yellow jellies they've got as ministers and mps seem to be perfectly able to forget about them and support the very worst excesses of Cameron and co.
You're right - if they have any jot of ethics, self respect or instinct for self preservation ... they would do the right thing and not support this blatant Tory power grab ... it's certainly not something that was in the coalition agreement (not that that's ever worried them before). But they don't inspire trust ... in fact that's the last thing they inspire.
I think self preservation will be the key issue for the LibDems, even if Clegg is blind to the reality of their situation, the rest of them must realise that their salad days are coming to an end. The only tiny hope that they have for the future is that they might scrape into power as part of a Lib/Lab coallition, so I cant see them blowing that prospect by backing a Tory proposal that would make any such victory worthless.
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Good piece by Will Hutton in the Observer - After the Scottish referendum – David Cameron's cynical attempt to manipulate the constitution
I still believe in a town called Hope
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Has more than just a touch of Royston Vasey to it doesn't it."English votes for English laws"
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
It seems that Andrew Mitchell wasn't quite the poor victim of malicious police officers that some of his friends have been desperate to portray him as. According to lawyers for The Sun he had a history of abusing the police officers who were meant to be protecting him.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 46501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 46501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Bizarre situation this morning seeing Labour being kicked on Twitter by some prominent left-wingers (Artist Taxi Driver for example) for pledging to increase the minimum wage to something close to the Living Wage (accounting for inflation) by 2020. Reaction is "£8? Is that all? We want £10! NOW!!!"
As one person on ATD tweet says, Labour are pledging to increase the NMW three times as fast as it has increased 2010-2015.
As one person on ATD tweet says, Labour are pledging to increase the NMW three times as fast as it has increased 2010-2015.
- TechnicalEphemera
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2967
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:21 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
A bigger issue is finding a way to get better quality jobs that pay more than minimum wage. The problem is in a world of large corporates and process - how?Spacedone wrote:Bizarre situation this morning seeing Labour being kicked on Twitter by some prominent left-wingers (Artist Taxi Driver for example) for pledging to increase the minimum wage to something close to the Living Wage (accounting for inflation) by 2020. Reaction is "£8? Is that all? We want £10! NOW!!!"
As one person on ATD tweet says, Labour are pledging to increase the NMW three times as fast as it has increased 2010-2015.
Release the Guardvarks.
- frightful_oik
- Whip
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:45 am
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 7535
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 8:29 am
- Location: Being rained on in west Wales
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Spacedone wrote:After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
The woman is Isobel Hardman, of the Spectator & Telegraph, so hardly surprising she's anti-Labour.
Not sure who the man is.
- frightful_oik
- Whip
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:45 am
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Marr was worse than Hardman. Man's an arse.yahyah wrote:Spacedone wrote:After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
The woman is Isobel Hardman, of the Spectator & Telegraph, so hardly surprising she's anti-Labour.
Not sure who the man is.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014
Indeed it does. I can just imagine going into that shop and asking that man behind the counter for a West Lothian humbug - and the response I might get.tinyclanger2 wrote:Has more than just a touch of Royston Vasey to it doesn't it."English votes for English laws"
Working on the wild side.