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yahyah wrote:Excuse me for sounding cynical but I'm just not sure society is spiritually/morally evolved enough to appreciate Ed's core values, the personal ones I mean.
Society has "un-evolved" (if that's a word). We went forwards at one point, but now appear to have gone into reverse. Do we accept that as final or do we keep trying to change things? I'm prepared to accept that the leader for this change might need to be more ruthless - ie someone I might not like to have round for tea and a chat - but I can't accept what, to me, feels like acceptance of the status quo. The Sleeping Beauty Good Fairy syndrome (although I know they all lived happily after in the end). But that was just a fairy tale.
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
No thank button so..
Hear! Hear!
Yes...Exactly my thoughts.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
SpinningHugo wrote:The single most significant criterion for leader we should use is
"Who do the Tories not want us to elect?"
and if that points at a 'Blairite', suck it up.
Out of interest Hugo who do you think that would be?
Well, this much I think will get uniform agreement. I would prefer someone untainted by the recent past. I would also prefer a woman, not least because Cameron is poor at dealing with women (a common trait of public schoolboys).
In the best of all possible worlds, I would like.
AJ to stand, explicitly saying he was doing so on an interim basis and would stand down after two years.
That isn't going to happen. So, I would like Stella Creasy. The choice not to promote her looks like a deliberate snub, someone protecting their own position.
But, her personal circumstances may make that impossible.
So, failing that, I would go for Umunna. I suspect I am the only one on this board who would choose him, but he is the one the Tories don't want.
Failing him, Liz Kendall.
Last time we elected the leader the Tories wanted. We must not do that again.
Alan Johnson ? No he back stabbed (to use that old worn out phrase) Ed and there is no way I could or would support him
Any way I'd like a leader who has settled well into the roll before 2020
Stella? Much too immature - have you ever read her twitter feed? And she can't quite control her temper and "goes off on one" too easily - and not quite honestly either. I remember a radio interview she gave with some bod from a pay day lender - she was awful and I actually came away feeling sorry for him! She had said things to him in a private meeting that she then completely disowned on the radio. He was genuinely flabbergasted and you could tell he was. Maybe that part of the reason she was over looked.
Umunna ? Just no. Too much "plebs and nightclubs" baggage that will still be remembered in 2020 - well the tory's will make sure its remembered!
Liz Kendell I do like and think she has a good future, but not yet, she still needs to round up as a politician. Needs a big department for a few years to prove herself.
That's where I come back to needing someone who knows their way round Westminster and has been round the block a few times.
Sadly I can't think of one.
I just want Ed back.
AngryAsWell wrote:
Out of interest Hugo who do you think that would be?
Well, this much I think will get uniform agreement. I would prefer someone untainted by the recent past. I would also prefer a woman, not least because Cameron is poor at dealing with women (a common trait of public schoolboys).
In the best of all possible worlds, I would like.
AJ to stand, explicitly saying he was doing so on an interim basis and would stand down after two years.
That isn't going to happen. So, I would like Stella Creasy. The choice not to promote her looks like a deliberate snub, someone protecting their own position.
But, her personal circumstances may make that impossible.
So, failing that, I would go for Umunna. I suspect I am the only one on this board who would choose him, but he is the one the Tories don't want.
Failing him, Liz Kendall.
Last time we elected the leader the Tories wanted. We must not do that again.
Alan Johnson ? No he back stabbed (to use that old worn out phrase) Ed and there is no way I could or would support him
Any way I'd like a leader who has settled well into the roll before 2020
Stella? Much too immature - have you ever read her twitter feed? And she can't quite control her temper and "goes off on one" too easily - and not quite honestly either. I remember a radio interview she gave with some bod from a pay day lender - she was awful and I actually came away feeling sorry for him! She had said things to him in a private meeting that she then completely disowned on the radio. He was genuinely flabbergasted and you could tell he was. Maybe that part of the reason she was over looked.
Umunna ? Just no. Too much "plebs and nightclubs" baggage that will still be remembered in 2020 - well the tory's will make sure its remembered!
Liz Kendell I do like and think she has a good future, but not yet, she still needs to round up as a politician. Needs a big department for a few years to prove herself.
That's where I come back to needing someone who knows their way round Westminster and has been round the block a few times.
Sadly I can't think of one.
I just want Ed back.
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
No thank button so..
Hear! Hear!
Those bloody women played loose with people's lives. More will die because of them. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. We must all take responsibility for our actions.
And for what? How many more seats?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
SpinningHugo wrote:
Well, this much I think will get uniform agreement. I would prefer someone untainted by the recent past. I would also prefer a woman, not least because Cameron is poor at dealing with women (a common trait of public schoolboys).
In the best of all possible worlds, I would like.
AJ to stand, explicitly saying he was doing so on an interim basis and would stand down after two years.
That isn't going to happen. So, I would like Stella Creasy. The choice not to promote her looks like a deliberate snub, someone protecting their own position.
But, her personal circumstances may make that impossible.
So, failing that, I would go for Umunna. I suspect I am the only one on this board who would choose him, but he is the one the Tories don't want.
Failing him, Liz Kendall.
Last time we elected the leader the Tories wanted. We must not do that again.
Alan Johnson ? No he back stabbed (to use that old worn out phrase) Ed and there is no way I could or would support him
Any way I'd like a leader who has settled well into the roll before 2020
Stella? Much too immature - have you ever read her twitter feed? And she can't quite control her temper and "goes off on one" too easily - and not quite honestly either. I remember a radio interview she gave with some bod from a pay day lender - she was awful and I actually came away feeling sorry for him! She had said things to him in a private meeting that she then completely disowned on the radio. He was genuinely flabbergasted and you could tell he was. Maybe that part of the reason she was over looked.
Umunna ? Just no. Too much "plebs and nightclubs" baggage that will still be remembered in 2020 - well the tory's will make sure its remembered!
Liz Kendell I do like and think she has a good future, but not yet, she still needs to round up as a politician. Needs a big department for a few years to prove herself.
That's where I come back to needing someone who knows their way round Westminster and has been round the block a few times.
Sadly I can't think of one.
I just want Ed back.
I'm billing you for my Kleenex.
I'm still trying to get things straight in my mind, but suspect I'd opt for Ed all over again given the choice.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
No thank button so..
Hear! Hear!
Those bloody women played loose with people's lives. More will die because of them. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. We must all take responsibility for our actions.
And for what? How many more seats?
Has any reporter actually asked Sturgeon the obvious question?
Why, if you hate the Tories so much, and think their rule will be so damaging, did you tell people not to vote Labour in England and Wales ?
Why are Sturgeon and her cronies being allowed to get away with such a big lie ?
The Tory government benefits them.
People who voted for them thinking they would help them against the Tories are fools.
If Eric pops in, I'd be interested if he has any sense of how the SNP managed to pull the wool over people's eyes about that, and how long he thinks it is going to take people to realise the bleedin' obvious.
So would I. He'd probably, given the benefit of that wonderful thing called hindsight, opt to be more outwardly ruthless and I sincerely believe that if he played "the game" he'd romp home. I truly believe that.
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
No thank button so..
Hear! Hear!
Those bloody women played loose with people's lives. More will die because of them. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. We must all take responsibility for our actions.
And for what? How many more seats?
Should have said
And for what Plaid and Greens? How many more seats?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Just anecdotal - a lot of people I know, who have the option, are seriously thinking of leaving the country now. And yes, they did vote so they can't be held responsible for the "mess we've (now) inherited". And these are well-qualified folk whom we no doubt need here. I wonder if that's true in the broader world (UK-wise).
RobertSnozers wrote:
Thankyou for articulating this. It was something I had been feeling this morning. I want to embrace those on the left, the Greens, the social democrats in Scotland, the remaining left-liberals etc as fellow-travellers. I don't want another period of scrapping over relatively minor differences. I know the Greens are here to stay and that's a good thing for our planet.
One of the things it wa so hard to adjust to during the last parliament was that Labour was being attacked from all sides. From the Tories for economic incompetence, with the LibDems joining in, and from the left for a lack of ideological purity. The media allowed the coalition partners to tag-team Labour for a couple of years, and then towards the end the other leftwing parties joined in from the other side. Labour didn't do enough to bring them round, though it would be nice if they could meet us halfway.
Those of us who aren't Tories (or Ukip) need to find our common ground and meet there.
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
Agreed. Thank you.
*sigh*
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
Anyone sad for Ed, there are some great new pics of him, Justine and the children.
They look relaxed, happy. As they deserve to be.
And to me, somewhat relieved?
Don't forget the Tories will have their own shitstorm to deal with soon. The economy isn't safe, interest rates and inflation can only go in one direction. House prices are already starting rise again and when interest rates rise there will be a problem.
The Tories have set in place trouble that they though was someone else's to deal with. Not to mention the EU ref and a possible Scottish breakaway.
Last edited by Swarthlander on Sat 09 May, 2015 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"A lack of compassion is as vulgar as an excess of tears"
A few thoughts that arose as I read through today's posts.
Two contributors today describe very different parental events. It's tough being a parent, even of adult children, sometimes. Especially if you can't change anything. But love goes a very long way.
My first human interaction today was receiving a call from a friend in hospital. She had phoned because she knew I'd be gutted by the results, but her first words were more or less, 'I feel so traumatised by this result, and don't understand why. It seems so fascist.'
I wonder about how Nicola Sturgeon feels right now. I can't make up my mind about whether she'll be confused or whether she expected this. Then realise this is where I'd place the boundaries of good and I'll, and think this truly is a very different landscape from a few days ago.
There's a certain relief in not expecting anything to get better. Buddhism teaches about suffering arising from hopes and fears. Right then, for a few years we'll dispense with the former, but what to do about the fears? Except perhaps transform them into action.
I'm more gutted about this for my children than for myself. In the Tory sorting house they are both, for very different reasons, of no account and the people who tax payers shouldn't be helping. They are both very bright, not lazy, and utterly at a loss on how to make any difference in their own lives.
Lots of posts have mentioned Blair, Blairite, or Blairism. That era has been painted with a great deal of negativity. I never liked the political stance, I'm a bit too much of a lefties for that, but you can't just look at the ideology, you have to also look at other things like social impact. I'm reluctantly admitting that they did get some things right, by taking and oblique route to getting things done. The things I particularly knew of and remember are these, though there are, I'm sure, more.
A clever use of EU resources in targeted areas of social deprivation, I personally saw some incredible community cohesion, public health awareness projects, and support for people at the bottom end, young mothers and fathers, homeless people, isolated urban communities, disabled people and more. I've even got evidence of them!
Social housing. Labour was unable to build council houses, something often held against them, but did support a huge amount of housing associations that charged very low rents and were good places to live.
Again using EU money and clever links with banks they set up genuine support and mentoring schemes for people going into sole trading, freelance work or small business partnerships. Participants were funded for the first six months, and monitored for the rest of the first year as it was recognised to be the period in which businesses were most likely to fail.
It's my belief that Hesse kind of interventions were beneficial in the long run, and that whil Britains affairs abroad were very questionable at home they were a lot healthier than now and moving the right direction. The oblique ness of approach, if you can't get things done one way look for how they can be achieved another was, to me, one of the best bits of those times, and rarely mentioned though many benefitted. I don't believe the position Cameron and his media goons have pushed Labour into, of needing to be publicly apologetic, is healthy at all, it allows him to take control of the narrative. Whoever becomes leader of Labour should be able to create a different story.
The link to the story of LibDem annihilation is very interesting. If this had not happened we'd be feeling very different today. I regard it as a very fascist outcome, no matter how deserved, because it was not a direct result of people's voting intentions, but a targeted campaign by a partner. No wonder Nick Clegg was crying.
Best wishes to all still feeling raw and bruised by events. I think we have to see that Tory strategists are much more ruthless than ours, and that their politicians are amoral in a way ours do not wish to be. I don't know how you fight that except with honesty and getting people's heads on straight. Some here are advocating a slug it out approach is needed. I'd disagree with that on the basis of Sturgeons somewhat compromised (she can't deliver ) stance. There was a vile comment in one paper, something about Ed and a Moses moment, forgive if there no link, and it's not quite an accurate recollection. In a strange way though, if you turn that on its head, make it a positive and not a negative, I think that is exactly what people want, and exactly what didn't happen. People really do want to be led out of the wilderness. (Nicola is promising that, and I'm horribly reminded of Joan of Arc.) But there are other kinds of endings too.
I won't express a preference on leader, because really I want Ed back, relishing the fight. We saw him notch up during the last weeks of his campaign, and there's more there, I'm sure, if people would let him do it his way. In a way that's the thing I'm most gutted about, and the thing I'd have changed. What a bloody awful sickening waste. I know it's indulgence to think this way, so again my apologies. In the real world it's unlikely.
Those bloody women played loose with people's lives. More will die because of them. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. We must all take responsibility for our actions.
And for what? How many more seats?
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.
Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.
I suspect that you're correct. And you did everyone the courtesy to argue your point and not merely suggest that people "suck it up". That is the way forward, I would think
Edited
Too many "suggests" I'm all over the shop today (more so than usual, I would suggest. Oh, bugger . . . . .)
Those bloody women played loose with people's lives. More will die because of them. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. We must all take responsibility for our actions.
And for what? How many more seats?
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.
Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.
It makes me feel very good And I have no doubt that even with hindsight, they would do exactly the same. Which is their perogative, but don't expect me to like it.
It was treacherous and a lot of people are going to suffer because of it.
The women in my family don't live much beyond 74/5 There is a good chance I won't be here in 2020. I'd hoped to see signs of a better future for my grandchildren...Thanks in part to them that's not going to happen. So I'll say it again. I hope they get well and truly lost.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Anyone sad for Ed, there are some great new pics of him, Justine and the children.
They look relaxed, happy. As they deserve to be.
And to me, somewhat relieved?.
Don't forget the Tories will have their own shitstorm to deal with soon. The economy isn't safe, interest rates and inflation can only go in one direction. House prices are already starting rise again and when interest rates rise there will be a problem.
The Tories have set in place trouble that they though was someone else's to deal with. Not to mention the EU ref and a possible Scottish breakaway.
No tax rises enshrined in law so massive, and I mean massive, cuts in order to maintain their plan on track.
No-one will be left unscathed and I imagine, in secret, they are ruing getting a majority. They will have believed the polls as much as anyone else! A minority Government would have allowed them to backtrack
Now they will have their mad rightwingers on the backbenches insisting on what they promised and that will not be easy
Politically I cannot see it being anything other than a disaster for them - as I keep saying they are not a popular Government and Cameron is not a popular leader - trouble is that it will be even worse for those poor people who are affected by it, some of whom will die
The media will also be looking for stories...there will be no LD to go for and Labour will be quiet for a while...some stirring up of the right wing loonballs may be in the offing.
I expect all the opposition parties LD, Green, Labour, SNP, Greens, PC etc to be focused on ensuring the disgrace that is this Government is shown up for what it is and not sniping over policy disagreements when there will not be a GE for another 5 years
I will not be impressed with any party portraying themselves as left of progressive who forget that the real enemy doing terrible harm is sitting on the Government benches...divide and rule is what the Tories want and we should not give it them. The big risk will come from the SNP in the run up to the SE in 2016 but I think they have to be very careful as any footsie with the Tories will be poison for them
yahyah wrote:One of the new Ed pics - tissues at the ready.
Guardian say he was 'apparently in high spirits'.
I'd say it was relief to get away from the relentless media hounding of him - the Red Ed, "your dad hated Britain", "can't eat a bacon sarnie", "you're weak, weak, weak" - although he'd loved to have been PM there's a certain air of "Thank God that's all over".
Who'd go into politics when every single part of your life is pored over waiting for the tiniest chink with which they can attack you day after day?
We really have got the most depressingly awful press...and it won't change. Leveson is history.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
Agreed. Thank you.
*sigh*
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
Sturgeon knew she would have an influence as the left's flavour of the month.
So why did she tell people in England and Wales to vote Green or Plaid, not Labour ?
If she cared one little hoot for people's lives and our public services she would have said
'Vote SNP in Scotland because we want to destroy Scottish Labour and get independence, but vote
Labour where they can win in England or Plaid/Green where they can win'.
But she didn't, she used her influence to keep Labour out in both Scotland & England.
All to suit Rupert Murdoch avoid media controls, and to help get Cameron back in Downing St.
Very progressive. Self serving and aiding to a right wing media mogul and the Tories, all dressed up in nationalist faux left wing fervour.
RobertSnozers wrote:
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.
Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.
Yes - I understand people are smarting from the lines of attack used by other progressive / left parties and the outcome - but you are right, we are going to have to get to a different place to build ourselves up and reach out to people who didn't vote for Labour this time.
I saw a nice tweet about Wes Streeting newly elected Labour MP for Ilford North (I think). He apparently said in his election night speech that now we have to make the time to go back and talk to the undecided and former Labour voters who didn't vote for us to find out why.
RobertSnozers wrote: You don't think the Tories wouldn't have attacked David Miliband relentlessly over his links to Iraq and rendition?
Of course they would.
But mine was statement of fact. We elected the leader they wanted us to, and not the one they feared.
It's not a fact, it's a straw man argument. It's meaningless. We didn't look at a list and say 'that's who the Tories want, we'll pick him'. In the same way using that as the sole criteria to choose a leader is ludicrous.
I didn't say it was the sole criteria, but the main one.
Winning is the main thing, not purity, not who we would like to win, not who we feel most affinity with. Winning.
AngryAsWell wrote:
To be truthful the "other left" did too much hateful damage to a very good, honerable man for me to ever forgive them. They helped lose us one of the best PM we could ever have had. They lied and lied and lied. "They signed up to 30 million of cuts" said time and again, even after they knew without doubt that was not true, Bennett even used it in the debates. Those 1000 here an there votes lost us some good people and they knew that when standing in marginals that they knew they had no chance of winning, they also knew they would take enough votes from us to lose us the seat. And they did.
One at least did realise (too late - day before election) what he was about to do, but left it so late his name was still on the ballot paper.
No time for them. None at all they are just Tory enablers who have helped put this country down. There will be no way back after 10 years of tory's.
Agreed. Thank you.
*sigh*
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
I don't demand anything from you or anyone, but I can and will express disgust at people who are - allegedly - more "left" than me deliberately sabotaging the chance for this country to have had a fair government by standing in seats they had not a hope in hell of taking.
I wont suffer, but the sick, disabled, unemployed and disadvantaged will.
If the "other left" had not lied then Labour might well have convinced enough people to vote for them. One of my best friends was convinced by the green lie that Labour would cut 30 million and would not be convinced otherwise because "Bennett had said so". Its the combination of standing in marginals and the lies that has made me so angry. Of course its your right to stand where you want and do what you want. Just as its my right to be upset when your actions affect people.
That's my opinion - I'm not asking you to change yours - don't ask me to change mine.
Some politicians are career politicians. Some politicians have convictions which lead them to make their career in politics. There's a world of difference.
citizenJA wrote:I've not had the heart to look at who lost what but my husband tells me UKIP only have one seat & Farage didn't get it.
Just how well (or not) did UKIP do, please, that Labour needs to concentrate on winning that vote?
Millions of votes, 2nd in 120 constituencies, 3rd in 324. And, in the local elections have added 123 councillors and gained Thanet District Council from no overall control.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news
This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
Some politicians are career politicians. Some politicians have convictions which lead them to make their career in politics. There's a world of difference.
The first 'end' is keeping the Tories out.
Even if we had a government that did nothing at all for the next five years, just let things tick over as they are now, that would be far better to the Tories being in power.
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
Sturgeon knew she would have an influence as the left's flavour of the month.
So why did she tell people in England and Wales to vote Green or Plaid, not Labour ?
If she cared one little hoot for people's lives and our public services she would have said
'Vote SNP in Scotland because we want to destroy Scottish Labour and get independence, but vote
Labour where they can win in England or Plaid/Green where they can win'.
But she didn't, she used her influence to keep Labour out in both Scotland & England.
All to suit Rupert Murdoch avoid media controls, and to help get Cameron back in Downing St.
Very progressive. Self serving and aiding to a right wing media mogul and the Tories, all dressed up in nationalist faux left wing fervour.
I am not a member of the SNP yahyah. I can't answer for them. Or for Nicola Sturgeon. I'm not even prepared to get into how left or right wing she is. Because it is irrelevant. If Labour hadn't neglected Scotland for so many years, the SNP would not have been able to get the hold it has. So, it's not Sturgeon's fault - she did what she felt was right for her party. It's Labour own fault.
I've said before that sometimes we all see things through a prism based on what we are hoping or fearing. One such occasion on this forum was when a number of you referred to Nicola Sturgeon, Leanne Wood, and Natalie Bennett as witches. This was seemingly because they were meeting up before the leaders debate. Firstly, the meeting was actually between Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon. Natalie wasn't part of it. Secondly, how could you know what they were meeting up for or what they would discuss? Could have been plans to put Ed down. Could have been plans to be supportive. Could have been to discuss what outfits they each planned to wear for all we know! Why assume anyone who isn't 100% for you, must therefore be 100% against you?
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
RobertSnozers wrote:@Tizme - I agree, I wish more did. Give us time, there's a lot of anger out there and things said on both sides that I wish hadn't been. I don't blame the Greens, I blame those who promoted the politics of fear and hate. I would like to see the leftwing parties working together.
Thanks Robert. Forgot to say in my little story of hugs, as I stepped back from hugging the candidates wife, I realised I was in the middle of the Labour group, still wearing my Green rosette. I'm sure that raised some eyebrows!
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
But mine was statement of fact. We elected the leader they wanted us to, and not the one they feared.
It's not a fact, it's a straw man argument. It's meaningless. We didn't look at a list and say 'that's who the Tories want, we'll pick him'. In the same way using that as the sole criteria to choose a leader is ludicrous.
I didn't say it was the sole criteria, but the main one.
Winning is the main thing, not purity, not who we would like to win, not who we feel most affinity with. Winning.
You are dead right. It's man eat man. Kill or be killed. It is the only way.
But I don't like it. I don't like the treachery we saw at the debates, and read on Twitter, and I don't like the thick public who wouldn't recognise someone selflessly trying to make their lives better if it kicked them in the face.
Reasons I've heard for voting for another party so far.
Ed couldn't eat a bacon sandwich.
Blair going to war in Iraq.
The cost of the war in Iraq.
Quite honestly, I don't have the time or patience to deal with it.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
Sturgeon knew she would have an influence as the left's flavour of the month.
So why did she tell people in England and Wales to vote Green or Plaid, not Labour ?
If she cared one little hoot for people's lives and our public services she would have said
'Vote SNP in Scotland because we want to destroy Scottish Labour and get independence, but vote
Labour where they can win in England or Plaid/Green where they can win'.
But she didn't, she used her influence to keep Labour out in both Scotland & England.
All to suit Rupert Murdoch avoid media controls, and to help get Cameron back in Downing St.
Very progressive. Self serving and aiding to a right wing media mogul and the Tories, all dressed up in nationalist faux left wing fervour.
I am not a member of the SNP yahyah. I can't answer for them. Or for Nicola Sturgeon. I'm not even prepared to get into how left or right wing she is. Because it is irrelevant. If Labour hadn't neglected Scotland for so many years, the SNP would not have been able to get the hold it has. So, it's not Sturgeon's fault - she did what she felt was right for her party. It's Labour own fault.
I've said before that sometimes we all see things through a prism based on what we are hoping or fearing. One such occasion on this forum was when a number of you referred to Nicola Sturgeon, Leanne Wood, and Natalie Bennett as witches. This was seemingly because they were meeting up before the leaders debate. Firstly, the meeting was actually between Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon. Natalie wasn't part of it. Secondly, how could you know what they were meeting up for or what they would discuss? Could have been plans to put Ed down. Could have been plans to be supportive. Could have been to discuss what outfits they each planned to wear for all we know! Why assume anyone who isn't 100% for you, must therefore be 100% against you?
Before I go, quickly because lasagne sauces must be made, I refer to Bennett and her pals as the witches as in Macbeth...you know, cooking up schemes together, which they did, the main one being lying about Labour. Sorry if that so offends you, we all have various levels of sensitivity.
I've already had your green pal complaining about Bortolotti being called potty on this site, when you yourself call someone Dotty Mare.
But, frankly that's the type of hypocritical sniping I expect from some quarters.
Some politicians are career politicians. Some politicians have convictions which lead them to make their career in politics. There's a world of difference.
The first 'end' is keeping the Tories out.
Even if we had a government that did nothing at all for the next five years, just let things tick over as they are now, that would be far better to the Tories being in power.
How often do we have to relearn the same lessons?
I understand what you are saying Hugo, but Ed was not a raving lefty and still got slaughtered. So I see no need to try to appease a right wing press.
But even if there was such a need - we have no one on either side left or right, that is competent to stand. And therein lies the rub.
Here we go again. It was not the fault of the Greens that Labour lost. I haven't finished looking at the stats yet but many of our votes came from the Lib dems. If anything, we helped Labour locally. Even if we hadn't, that doesn't mean it's our fault Labour lost. Why can't you understand that as Greens, we believe in a fundamentally different approach? I don't demand that you support my views - why do you demand that I should support yours? Is that what democracy means to you - the right for people who don't want to vote Tory to vote Labour?
Some of you have spoken of a kind of broad church of those on the left to work together to defeat the Tories. This is possible and imo desirable. But it won't happen if what you mean by that is we do what you tell us. At the count for the local results, there was already some hints of such a joining together where possible.
One of the new Labour councillors is a chap I know. Indeed I'm friendly with both him and his wife. They are good people. As I'm sure you all know, the election agents are told the result before each announcement is made. Shortly before the announcement for his ward was made, I saw his son leave the room in tears. I was a bit concerned and couldn't see where our election agent was so I looked over at the Labour group. They seemed to be smiling and looking pleased while next to them the Lib dems looked glum. I went over to him and asked "did you manage it"? He replied "yes". At which point I hugged him. Then I turned to his wife and we had a huge hug. "I'm so so proud of him" she said. And I replied "I'm so, so, proud of both of you". We were both in tears. I know what a long, hard struggle it has been.
So you see, it is possible for Greens and Labour to disagree on some things but to work together where it is 'for the common good' which after all is what us Greens believe in. But it isn't possible if you blame us when Labour fall short. Because for all the trying to work out what went wrong, the reason Labour lost is because they didn't persuade enough people they were the best option. And that is not the fault of the Greens, or SNP, or UKIP or any bloody one. Except Labour.
I don't demand anything from you or anyone, but I can and will express disgust at people who are - allegedly - more "left" than me deliberately sabotaging the chance for this country to have had a fair government by standing in seats they had not a hope in hell of taking.
I wont suffer, but the sick, disabled, unemployed and disadvantaged will.
If the "other left" had not lied then Labour might well have convinced enough people to vote for them. One of my best friends was convinced by the green lie that Labour would cut 30 million and would not be convinced otherwise because "Bennett had said so". Its the combination of standing in marginals and the lies that has made me so angry. Of course its your right to stand where you want and do what you want. Just as its my right to be upset when your actions affect people.
That's my opinion - I'm not asking you to change yours - don't ask me to change mine.
Actually Labour did sign up to cuts. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean they would have cut in the same way. And I fully accept they wouldn't have had to enforce cuts, or cuts at that level given no government can force such a thing on a future government. But Labour were stupid to put themselves in that position. They tried to play the middle ground and it worked against them. Again, their fault. Not anyone else's.
Labour are not whiter than white when it comes to telling the truth.
As a matter of fact, I will suffer. I probably would have suffered under a Labour government too but possibly not as much.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
And I have no doubt that even with hindsight, they would do exactly the same. Which is their perogative, but don't expect me to like it. 
