Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:23 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm sure I saw yesterday tweets to the effect that the Tories are saying they don't need a vote ... it's already approved and will go ahead asap. This is why voter registration numbers for this election were so critical ... and why they weren't too bothered about getting people to register.

And of course - if they've effectively got rid of most of the Lib Dems there are far fewer, if any, of their own MPs who are up for the chop ... they've got an inbuilt advantage of + 44 on those figures above ... should shut up their dissenters.
It was voted down according to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21235169

Plans to redraw constituency boundaries before 2015, backed by the Tories, have been defeated in the House of Commons.
MPs voted by 334 to 292 to accept changes made by peers, meaning the planned constituency shake-up will be postponed until 2018 at the earliest.
edit - and a lot of things could have happened before then...
Shapps has said they don't need a vote only yesterday ?

Wouldn't trust anything that he says - that BBC article seems to indicate that it's dead for the next 3 years and as I said a lot can happen in the meantime.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:23 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm sure I saw yesterday tweets to the effect that the Tories are saying they don't need a vote ... it's already approved and will go ahead asap. This is why voter registration numbers for this election were so critical ... and why they weren't too bothered about getting people to register.

And of course - if they've effectively got rid of most of the Lib Dems there are far fewer, if any, of their own MPs who are up for the chop ... they've got an inbuilt advantage of + 44 on those figures above ... should shut up their dissenters.
It was voted down according to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21235169

Plans to redraw constituency boundaries before 2015, backed by the Tories, have been defeated in the House of Commons.
MPs voted by 334 to 292 to accept changes made by peers, meaning the planned constituency shake-up will be postponed until 2018 at the earliest.
edit - and a lot of things could have happened before then...

Having watched the video, read the article and these posts the real situation seems as clear as mud. I too saw the tweets that suggested they would just go ahead and make the changes. I'm starting to think that the result of votes is only to be honoured if it meets Tory spec or is that being too cynical.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:26 pm

yahyah wrote:Lasagne nearly cooked, just back for a peek.

Brighton now back to Labour. Big loss of Green seats.
Odd that people trusted Lucas but not their councillors.

Apologies to Tizme if my post was curt. I probably upset more people at breakfast time when coming round and just before supper than at any other time of the day.

& Rob. I really understand how you feel.
But people need to be able to discuss their feelings at the moment surely ?
Feelings of betrayal go deep, can't just be glossed over.
Your explanation of how the anti-austerity parties played the tune the Tories wanted, to hurt Labour, is excellent, thank you.
That's what I mean though, that's why feelings run strong.
The so called progressives attacked Labour on it, and manipulated the truth to suit their agenda.
Or lie as some may call it.

I'm fortunate.
Could probably out match Rusty on champagne purchasing, have no mortgage, no debt, generous savings, solid regular income and a small but homely house.

I won't suffer, apart from emotionally under the Tories.
But I care about those who will suffer. Suffer they will and it will be challenging to anyone with compassion.

Any closing of distance with the anti-austerity parties would have to include an apology for damaging Ed & Labour with those lies. They bang on about Iraq & Labour being baby murderers, when they acknowledge they may have helped harm people here...then I'll feel a little more accepting.

That is how I feel as well, and I can't help how I feel.
The hurt is too raw and too deep.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:29 pm

I come back to my point - although they won

Cameron is not liked much
The Tories are not liked at all but are seen to be 'competent economically' - who believes that shit is beyond me but there you go
The British people are very fickle

The Tories are not as smart as they think - they can play games with the politics but the next Parliament is going to impact on so many people they may take it too far. If there is another crash or a real funding crisis in the public services then this fickle pubic could turn overnight

None of this may come to pass but this mob think they are untouchable - and they most definitely are not.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:31 pm

Having seen about five 'edicts' since the results became clear, none of which do anything other than prop up a Tory vision of the world, I wonder if this is how it's going to be again. The run up to the election provided some respite from the breakneck pace of change, and it's not something I want to live rough again, but being realistic, to get us to where they would want us to be is going to take a lot more punishing stuff. It worries the heck out of me, I'm not likely to make it to 2020, and like others I'd like to see my children and grandchildren safe and with some level of security in life.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:31 pm

News from the #ProgressiveAlliance and Anti-Austerity Bloc of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party and allies in the UK Parliament. Events, meetings, protests
More on the London Occupy
https://twitter.com/AntiAusterityUK?lang=en-gb

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:32 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm sure I saw yesterday tweets to the effect that the Tories are saying they don't need a vote ... it's already approved and will go ahead asap. This is why voter registration numbers for this election were so critical ... and why they weren't too bothered about getting people to register.

And of course - if they've effectively got rid of most of the Lib Dems there are far fewer, if any, of their own MPs who are up for the chop ... they've got an inbuilt advantage of + 44 on those figures above ... should shut up their dissenters.
It was voted down according to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21235169

Plans to redraw constituency boundaries before 2015, backed by the Tories, have been defeated in the House of Commons.
MPs voted by 334 to 292 to accept changes made by peers, meaning the planned constituency shake-up will be postponed until 2018 at the earliest.
edit - and a lot of things could have happened before then...
Having watched the video, read the article and these posts the real situation seems as clear as mud. I too saw the tweets that suggested they would just go ahead and make the changes. I'm starting to think that the result of votes is only to be honoured if it meets Tory spec or is that being too cynical.

I think a hefty dose of cynicism about the Tories and the way they operate is essential. Their skulduggery and brass neck is absolutely proven. Consider that last minute crap re the European arrest warrant and whether it was in or out and could or could not be debated that was pulled by Hague .... even their own committee chair called it as utterly dishonorable.

If they do try to just go ahead - I hope there is a way to challenge them legally - because I'm not sure there are enough honorable Tories like that bloke to do it from within.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:34 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Sara Firth @Sara__Firth
· 1h 1 hour ago
It's getting a bit chaotic here in #London at the protest

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth

Rob Gant ‏@Bobby_Gant · 16 mins16 minutes ago
Violence at the #ToriesOutNow protest in London is being met by a British media blackout. How very unsurprising.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:36 pm

ARTIST TAXI DRIVER ‏@chunkymark · 2 mins2 minutes ago
Activists March on Downing Street..
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 38666.html …

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:38 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:I come back to my point - although they won

Cameron is not liked much
The Tories are not liked at all but are seen to be 'competent economically' - who believes that shit is beyond me but there you go
The British people are very fickle

The Tories are not as smart as they think - they can play games with the politics but the next Parliament is going to impact on so many people they may take it too far. If there is another crash or a real funding crisis in the public services then this fickle pubic could turn overnight

None of this may come to pass but this mob think they are untouchable - and they most definitely are not.

True bloody right, morefoolme. Sorry, did I not get that right?. Happy returns btw, since I am now addressing you. Believe me, of course you do, when I say that it would have been felt whether or not expressed. Anyway economically competent? To continue misquoting you. I just do not understand it. When shall people realise that privatising public services as has been the wont of Tories since Maggie if not before has resulted in poor and costly provision for all. Luckily there are some greedy fuckers that can afford more than others. Who on earth could they be?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:42 pm

Brighton full result-

Labour 23
Conservative 20
Green 11

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:43 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:News from the #ProgressiveAlliance and Anti-Austerity Bloc of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party and allies in the UK Parliament. Events, meetings, protests
More on the London Occupy
https://twitter.com/AntiAusterityUK?lang=en-gb

I'll never stop being annoyed at that.

I don't know why expected those parties to be honourable, but they all talked the same crap about the OBR charter.

To be lectured on "how we do politics" up here by the SNP was seriously nauseating.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:44 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:News from the #ProgressiveAlliance and Anti-Austerity Bloc of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party and allies in the UK Parliament. Events, meetings, protests
More on the London Occupy
https://twitter.com/AntiAusterityUK?lang=en-gb

I find that a bit ironic or is it me being over sensitive?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:45 pm

On the way back from walking the dogs on the beach we met a neighbour who we often chat to but don't really know know, if you know what I mean. He was on his way to the post box to send off an angry response to an electricity bill from SSE for over £500 for a house which he moved out of over 3 months ago. He then launched into how it came on top of him already feeling close to boiling point or suicide over the election results - how the hell could this country have voted a Tory government in - and he wished he could move to France. He can't - he's looking after his elderly mother who is pretty frail.

There was a lot more from him about the Tories and how the media had behaved and how so many people don't seem to realise what is going on ... all unprompted by us. We were standing there letting him vent - and it was somehow cathartic for us too.

I asked him if he voted and he did - and he voted Labour.

His work has all but dried up - no recovery for him. He now relies on tax credits and carers allowance. He is struggling like never before. And those bits of support are probably about to be kicked away from him. He can't move to where there might be more chance of work - his mum relies totally on him. He's stuffed. And he's furious.

Mr Riots said to me yesterday that when people have worked out how to get heard through the system - those with the power make sure the system is changed so they can't anymore - and when that keeps happening - people come to the conclusion that the only means left to them is direct action - and for some it may be violent direct action.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:46 pm

ITV have pick up the protest at last
Scuffles between police and protesters and anti-Tory demonstration at Downing Street

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-05-09/scuf ... ng-street/

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:52 pm

The protest about a rigged election is about the stolen van full of voting slips...
A lady on YouTube is adamant the election was rigged where she comes from. She said there's no way Amber Rudd? should have won as her town isn't a rich one, and that the stolen votes were used.

I checked the story on the Independent and they said assurances had been made that the stolen notes wouldn't be valid but strangely enough they didn't explain how that would be achieved.

Blimey. Talk about soul searching. I'm not only cynical, angry, and a far left leftie, but a conspiracy theorist now.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:52 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh yes and they will have to make the decision on airport expansion in the South East as well now!

And find the money for HS2

And deal with the abuse of minors by the establishment

The list goes on of the things that people will find in the long grass when they start mowing it.....

Indeed they will. I've been running through the list of all those things in my mind, all the things they'd shunted into this Parliament and, perhaps, had at-least-half-expected to drop in Labour's lap. Only I kept adding new things and losing track of what I'd already though of. In this constituency, selecting Heathrow would greatly damage not my our sleep and many people's breathing (which is bad enough, already, with one of the most air-polluted town-centres in the EU!) but also the 'standing' of our current MP, Justine Greening, who first became known here as an anti-Heathrow-expansion campaigner.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:52 pm

Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 25m25 minutes ago
BREAKING Liberal Democrats agree to accelerate leadership process. New leader to be in place by the end of July rather than the Autumn.

Does their leader have to be an MP? Not much choice if so.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:53 pm

I popped into a shop earlier to pick up some munchies. On passing the bag of shopping toward me the checkout lady apologised for sliding and not picking it up. I asked if she had a trapped nerve, something I often suffer with myself (months at a time usually, not yet both arms at the same time thankfully) to which she replied no a cracked rib. I instantly replied that I had some good jokes or could tell her a story. She looked at my son shaking his head and remarked, "That would be okay then since they're Dad jokes."

Sorry. I'll shut up now.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:56 pm

Tiz,
I read and understood exactly what you're saying, I'm one of those who has been advocating for a long time a closer link between Greens and Labour. Which would of course mean a lot of soul searching and rethinking of all sorts of things that both sides hold dear. That's something for the broad membership to start doing, if they think it of value, in both parties.

I do think though that there's a huge difference between what the two parties are and what their members believe in, and the public jockeying into position at the top, which quite frankly horrified me. It's this polarised and oppositional stuff that has caused so much damage. I know your thoughts on this are probably very different to mine, but to me the showboating nature of the SNP 'offer' and Greens apparent support for it during the debates was very hard to stomach. The two nationalist parties have very different overall aims to Greens, and I had a lot of difficulty with the leaders of three parties claiming the moral high ground on social issues and human rights etc, while demolishing a proponent of exactly those values.

This is of course not the fault of the many thousands of green supporters and activists, but nevertheless it happened very publicly and the overall effect has been to discredit all progressive ideas from all four parties. I can see exactly how this has been engineered in terms of the media and believe all need to really think about the whole nature of public office, power, and the reasons for being in politics. And if it is to improve things for the majority, who we know inhabit the large base of the pyramid, and whose circumstances, or inertia, or disengagement, or inability to participate affects the future of our nation and our planet, then come together to do something about it, in the way the Labour movement affected social change globally. I'm not in favour of single issue politics as a solution, only as a means of awareness, and feel if the differences aren't set aside we miss a great opportunity. And we have to start somewhere. But that place is not and never could be a shouty demand on live TV. The issues deserve a lot better than that.

Your descriptions of the events and your own engagement in activism are so far away from the public stuff as to be of a different nature altogether. But the politicking affects us all, and not always in beneficial ways. It's a very boggy area, and there are plenty to coopt such events for their own purposes. I think we all have to be reflective about these issues that are so close to our hearts. We are up against some quite ruthless forces, whose strength is to appear weak and often stupid. But that is a hallmark of who they are. We need to be playing their game with our rules.

Keep posting, I love to hear your view, and please don't take this as criticism, it applies equally to mistakes in all the parties aligned against the right.

Thanks seeingclearly. I'm not taking your comments as criticism. In the heat of a general election campaign, there is little room for nuance. The faults are on all sides when it comes to that. It happens in local elections too to some degree. Last year I was standing in a ward where our Green councillor had had to resign suddenly [no scandal - he'd been offered his dream job but too far away from Watford for him to continue as a councillor]. My Labour opponent- lets call him John, was very aggressive. Very sneering, rude, and annoying. He won and it was our remaining Green councillor [in the same ward] that helped him more than anyone probably. Over the months when I bumped into John, I'd be friendly towards him. If I arranged local meetings, I invited him as a local councillor. When our said councillor resigned this year due to pressure from his full time job, John asked me to thank him for all the help he'd given. Indeed he asked me to promise to pass the message on.

Because it was a by election last year, John was up for re election this year. Plus there was a second by election in the same ward due to our remaining councillor having to resign as I said. For part of the time at the verification, John and I were sat next to each other. He asked me how I thought it was going. I told him it was going how I expected. I didn't tell him that what I expected was for him and his Labour colleague to win. I asked him how he thought it was going and he said he'd been working hard and he'd got 'his' vote out. At that point, a ballot paper with votes for me and my Green colleague was turned up. So I quipped "seems you didn't get that one out". Shortly after, a ballot paper was turned over with a vote for me, and the second vote was for the Conservative. I pointed it out to John and said "Christ what a combination". He then pointed out one with a vote for me and a vote for UKIP. "That ones even weirder" he commented. To which I replied "I'm not sure I want that vote"! Just banter but a year ago, it couldn't have happened. What was needed was respect and trust to be built. John is very young and new so it was really up to us to extend the olive branch. Sometimes it will need to be the other way with Labour reaching out to us.

In some ways I actually feel a bit sorry for the poor sod. He had to fight an election last year, then re fight it this year due to it having been a by election. And next year he'll have to fight it all over again because we've got an 'all out' next year! Still it means the residents will have a councillor working really hard to keep their votes.

All this is what goes on behind the scenes of course. Locally the Labour councillors and the lib dem councillors are pretty much at each others throats a lot of the time because the Lib dems were in control and Labour the main opposition. They rip shreds out of each other in their leaflets. I am friendly with a number of the Labour councillors. I am also friendly with a number of the Lib dem councillors. Maybe us Watford Greens should campaign on the basis that we work with our opponents for the good of the public! We do at least refuse to indulge in mud slinging. And I have been known more than once to publicly comment favourably on a councillor from another party.

The Green philosophy and approach to the economy and to many things, is totally different to that of Labour. However, we do realise there is a long way to go before we could bring such an approach into effect even if we had a Green majority in government. In the meantime, there are many areas where Greens and Labour could work together. Over time, no doubt, policies would evolve in both parties that we could share but eventually it would have to come to a crunch where we put our alternative views to the electorate. But that would be a long way off imo and there is much that is good that we could achieve together.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:58 pm

To add to the list of things that they mean to pass the buck to someone else...

Evening up funding for schools. There are a lot of very irate shires who get not as good a deal from the DfE than do the urban areas - mainly because traditionally urban schools weren't as good. Certainly in London that hasn't been the case for a while.

All they've done is put a path on it and push the problem down the line...now they'll have to sort it out or have a lot of aggrieved Tory MPs on their backs.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The protest about a rigged election is about the stolen van full of voting slips...
A lady on YouTube is adamant the election was rigged where she comes from. She said there's no way Amber Rudd? should have won as her town isn't a rich one, and that the stolen votes were used.

I checked the story on the Independent and they said assurances had been made that the stolen notes wouldn't be valid but strangely enough they didn't explain how that would be achieved.

Blimey. Talk about soul searching. I'm not only cynical, angry, and a far left leftie, but a conspiracy theorist now.

I can see her point on not understanding how Rudd won
"What not to say in an interview – a quick guide for MPs"
http://labourlist.org/2013/04/what-not- ... e-for-mps/

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 7:59 pm

I was reading that, according to LibDem party rules, the selection process would necessitate the involvement of 0.8 of an MP (ie 10% of their MPs) given the number of MPs they have left. What will they do in the light of this (serious question)?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:02 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 25m25 minutes ago
BREAKING Liberal Democrats agree to accelerate leadership process. New leader to be in place by the end of July rather than the Autumn.
Does their leader have to be an MP? Not much choice if so.

Farron or Lamb - hopefully the former

Brake can fuck off to the Tories....he is no Liberal - he is a lobbying bill defending twat

Apologies but he makes me quiver with anger

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:02 pm

PorFavor wrote:I was reading that, according to LibDem party rules, the selection process would necessitate the involvement of 0.8 of an MP (ie 10% of their MPs) given the number of MPs they have left. What will they do in the light of this (serious question)?

Spot of cannibalism perhaps? That should do it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:04 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:To add to the list of things that they mean to pass the buck to someone else...

Evening up funding for schools. There are a lot of very irate shires who get not as good a deal from the DfE than do the urban areas - mainly because traditionally urban schools weren't as good. Certainly in London that hasn't been the case for a while.

All they've done is put a path on it and push the problem down the line...now they'll have to sort it out or have a lot of aggrieved Tory MPs on their backs.

It's amazing they didn't get that done before. As you say, it does disadvantage not very affluent parts of Tory constituencies.

I guess the smashing LAs took precedence over everything.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:04 pm

utopiandreams wrote:I popped into a shop earlier to pick up some munchies. On passing the bag of shopping toward me the checkout lady apologised for sliding and not picking it up. I asked if she had a trapped nerve, something I often suffer with myself (months at a time usually, not yet both arms at the same time thankfully) to which she replied no a cracked rib. I instantly replied that I had some good jokes or could tell her a story. She looked at my son shaking his head and remarked, "That would be okay then since they're Dad jokes."

Sorry. I'll shut up now.

Please don't, you bring a smile in these sad days

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Big OccupyDemocracy demo in London. Violent by the look of it. Naturally not on the BBC.

Here's me being cynical again...I wonder how many of them voted?

I know at least one of the organisers voted. And voted Labour - in Bermondsey. So, she was one of those who helped rid us of the wretched Simon Hughes. Something I've been waiting for for 32 years but due to the way things went on Thursday, I couldn't fully enjoy it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:06 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 25m25 minutes ago
BREAKING Liberal Democrats agree to accelerate leadership process. New leader to be in place by the end of July rather than the Autumn.
Does their leader have to be an MP? Not much choice if so.

Farron or Lamb - hopefully the former

Brake can fuck off to the Tories....he is no Liberal - he is a lobbying bill defending twat

Apologies but he makes me quiver with anger

What about the other 7 and their record on the lobbying and other bills? Were they better or just as bad? I am actually sorry that Andrew George didn't get re elected. The lot that did get re elected don't seem particularly inspiring to me - Farron a possible exception.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:07 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Brighton full result-

Labour 23
Conservative 20
Green 11

yahyah earlier said

Odd that people trusted Lucas but not their councillors.

but I have to say it's no real surprise. Lucas doesn't spend much time in her constituency so everything that is wrong with it has been blamed on the Council. Remember how she stood against the council's row with the binmen ?

It used to be a lovely place to visit/live - it's not just another inner city shithole & if I want shopping that our immediate locality can't provide, I swerve Brighton & go instead to Worthing or Crawley.

Sadly, the cuts to councils will mean the NOC council won't be able to restore the services they once had.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:09 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: Does their leader have to be an MP? Not much choice if so.

Farron or Lamb - hopefully the former

Brake can fuck off to the Tories....he is no Liberal - he is a lobbying bill defending twat

Apologies but he makes me quiver with anger
What about the other 7 and their record on the lobbying and other bills? Were they better or just as bad? I am actually sorry that Andrew George didn't get re elected. The lot that did get re elected don't seem particularly inspiring to me - Farron a possible exception.

Brake was the proposer in the debate

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:09 pm

I sit here spouting my nonsense and subscribe to action that I do not myself contribute, lazy sod that I am. Nevertheless I am not ready to promote myself to any position of responsibility, am still rebuilding. Please don't mistake this for any of the stupidity to which I earlier referred, besides I have neither the charisma and am merely a dilettante. Have I said that I know a lot about a little but nothing about much. Maybe vice versa for the first bit, equally applicable. Oh yeah, responsibility... no sorry I am not ready to volunteer helping with the site and I seriously do have other things to do. Nevertheless (shall get there in the end) I miss the Thanks button. So thank you all lest I miss anybody out.

Edit: inserted a missing 'am' but directly in front of another the first time I did. I should spend more time looking at the monitor and less at the keyboard. That's the trouble when you can't get your fingers to behave. At least I haven't digital Tourettes. There would be too many targets today.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:13 pm

The Greens didn't have a majority on the council, to be fair to them, and they got hit with the equal pay claim. It wasn't a great situation they walked into.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:14 pm

An open letter to everyone who voted Conservative yesterday and why you should hesitate before you pat yourself on the back.

https://wilsherswordpress.wordpress.com ... -the-back/

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:18 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:Thanks for the article yahyah - but link seems to be broken

In amongst the excitement yesterday I managed to miss Rusty's little intervention. What a pleasant fellow he is. I found myself wondering whether I would have allowed myself to gloat over right wingers in that sort of way in the event of a Labour victory. It probably would have been easy - I don't know any right wingers that I actually like. I know a couple through my writing but they turned out to have a deeply unpleasant streak. However, I don't think I would have gone to the trouble of registering on a right wing discussion site for the express purposes of rubbing their noses in it.

He raises a few things we might want to look at. Are we an echo chamber? Are we just convincing ourselves because we're excluding any other voices? I don't believe we are but perhaps we need to examine the right wing arguments (the proper ones, not the frothing of economically illiterate trolls justifying their hate and fear).

Still, as with dogs it's best to reward good behaviour and ignore bad. I suggest we forget about him. His delusions can't help him, and talking about them won't help us. Whether he has multiple identities or whether there are just a bunch of people who parrot similar sounding lines, it doesn't matter. Let's leave him to his foolishness and not give him the satisfaction of mentioning him.

His gloating post though raised in my mind an important point. The last government was a bad government, it failed by all standards including its own and yet the public has chosen to given the Tory part of it another go. Not as much as it might look - Tory share of the vote was the same as last time. The same share of the electorate voted Tory as in 2010 and slightly more voted Labour than in 2010. They won over 6% more of those who voted. It just isn't the wholsesale rejection of leftwing politics that Tories would like to claim. But too many people bought the narrative of Tory success and Labour failure.

So what do we do? And what can FTN do about it?

- Find and collate the evidence of Tory failure. It's out there and abundant
- Argue against it. Relentlessly. Eloquently. Convincingly. And not just here, we need to spread those arguments
- Do more. For all the talk of how Labour won the ground war, the Tories were (as always) better at getting their vote out. I bottled out of volunteering. I won't again. Tem's point about how Labour needs to be a movement again was correct. Many people here actually get out there and work - I know I need to follow their example more, perhaps others could look at what more they could do. There are those local campaigns, organisations, movements. We need to get FTN out of here and into the real world or the next five years is going to be long indeed. There's a high chance this goverment will collapse - let's get out there and give it a push.

From each according to his ability - to each according to his need. It's an unjust world and we live in an unjust country. The forces of injustice squeaked a win yesterday. I don't propose to let them enjoy their victory

Yes. Am with you. From end of June I will be able to engage better, but it is key that we change how "politics" works for people on a day in day out basis. And we have to become relevant to the rural populations that are terrified of the left but more to the point felt no difference under a Labour govnt.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:20 pm

Just read a comment about axeing classroom assistants, said to have been announced since the election. I'm sort of watching such changes, even if they were in the pipeline it would seem that there are no blips in tolling stuff out. Conspiracy stuff rattles the heck out of me, but we've had a weekend following a pretty demanding week, and this lot are behaving as if it didn't happen. Well, given some of what I've read here today, perhaps it didn't. It would explain the huge difference between the Marr interview and his glossiness' appearance in the non-debate. Give or take a little chemical assistance, perhaps. That story from London rattled me.

If anyone has a link to anything on classroom assistants I'd be grateful.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:21 pm

Britain Elects
‏@britainelects Labour leader preference (Survation / 08-09 May)
Burnham 14%
Ummuna 12%
Cooper 11%
Jarvis 6%
Hunt 6%
Kendall 5%
Reeves 4%
(DK) 41%

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:24 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Just read a comment about axeing classroom assistants, said to have been announced since the election. I'm sort of watching such changes, even if they were in the pipeline it would seem that there are no blips in tolling stuff out. Conspiracy stuff rattles the heck out of me, but we've had a weekend following a pretty demanding week, and this lot are behaving as if it didn't happen. Well, given some of what I've read here today, perhaps it didn't. It would explain the huge difference between the Marr interview and his glossiness' appearance in the non-debate. Give or take a little chemical assistance, perhaps. That story from London rattled me.

If anyone has a link to anything on classroom assistants I'd be grateful.

Not heard anything recently but it is their long term plan
This from 2013

230,000 classroom assistants face axe
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/new ... 268217.ece

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:27 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:An open letter to everyone who voted Conservative yesterday and why you should hesitate before you pat yourself on the back.

https://wilsherswordpress.wordpress.com ... -the-back/

Had to stop reading BTL on that ... couldn't carry on past the one that said we should stop whingeing about benefit cuts that meant we could only afford one bottle of vodka a day instead of two.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:28 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects
‏@britainelects Labour leader preference (Survation / 08-09 May)
Burnham 14%
Ummuna 12%
Cooper 11%
Jarvis 6%
Hunt 6%
Kendall 5%
Reeves 4%
(DK) 41%

Interesting, but important to remember that at this stage scores say far more about recognition than anything else

And not forgetting also that polling is barely credible at the moment !

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:35 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:@Tizme - I agree, I wish more did. Give us time, there's a lot of anger out there and things said on both sides that I wish hadn't been. I don't blame the Greens, I blame those who promoted the politics of fear and hate. I would like to see the leftwing parties working together.
Thanks Robert. Forgot to say in my little story of hugs, as I stepped back from hugging the candidates wife, I realised I was in the middle of the Labour group, still wearing my Green rosette. I'm sure that raised some eyebrows!

We absolutely have to build bridges, not blow them up. Especially between the left-leaning parties on the Opposition Benches.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:38 pm

Wonder why an SNP person would be tweeting pictures of the London protest to Wings

Simone Chalkley retweeted

Rab McEwan ‏@McEwanRab · 1h1 hour ago  Llandudno, Wales
@Wings Scotland @Alexx_McArthur @DerekBateman2

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:39 pm

yahyah wrote:Lasagne nearly cooked, just back for a peek.

Brighton now back to Labour. Big loss of Green seats.
Odd that people trusted Lucas but not their councillors.

Apologies to Tizme if my post was curt. I probably upset more people at breakfast time when coming round and just before supper than at any other time of the day.

& Rob. I really understand how you feel.
But people need to be able to discuss their feelings at the moment surely ?
Feelings of betrayal go deep, can't just be glossed over.
Your explanation of how the anti-austerity parties played the tune the Tories wanted, to hurt Labour, is excellent, thank you.
That's what I mean though, that's why feelings run strong.
The so called progressives attacked Labour on it, and manipulated the truth to suit their agenda.
Or lie as some may call it.

I'm fortunate.
Could probably out match Rusty on champagne purchasing, have no mortgage, no debt, generous savings, solid regular income and a small but homely house.

I won't suffer, apart from emotionally under the Tories.
But I care about those who will suffer. Suffer they will and it will be challenging to anyone with compassion.

Any closing of distance with the anti-austerity parties would have to include an apology for damaging Ed & Labour with those lies. They bang on about Iraq & Labour being baby murderers, when they acknowledge they may have helped harm people here...then I'll feel a little more accepting.

I didn't find your post curt yahyah. I'm afraid though I can't agree that Greens need to apologise for being anti austerity. And which ever way you slice it Labour were proposing austerity - just not as much as the Tories. Again, I can not accept blame for the harm that is going to be done to people, including myself actually. Labour did not persuade the electorate. This wasn't due to anything said by Natalie. Imo it was partly due to not dealing with Liam Byrne's stupid 'joke' note 5 years ago. And not dealing with the 'Labour crashed the economy' crap 5 years ago. I went to virtually all the local hustings and often, Matt was being attacked as though Labour was still in government and the main attacks were over the economy. He didn't have any answer for it - just like Labour haven't for the last five years. At at least five of the hustings, Harrington and Nick Lincoln [UKIP] used the Labour only put the tax up in the last month rubbish. Not once did Matt deal with it. On one occasion I put my hand up to tackle it myself because I was so fed up with hearing it but I wasn't called to speak.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:42 pm

: Montgomerie Advises Quick Action on Tricky Legislation.jpg (75.39 KiB) Viewed 6315 times

Tim Montgomerie ن @montie · 10h 10 hours ago
Me in @TheTimes: 10 ways Cameron might avoid the crippling divisions of the 1992 parliament http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/c ... 435226.ece …

Wants to get those boundary changes done and dusted well before 2018 then.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:45 pm

refitman wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Karl Turner ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Turner_(politician)
How odd that link not working, but if you google search the wiki page comes up and its there and the address is exactly the same (I copied and pasted it) ?
AAW, the closing bracket was messing up the link (I blame PF ). Have fixed it in your original post and the one I am replying to.

If there's a rogue bracket issue (RBI) PF will be at the heart of it.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:46 pm

I was genuinely surprised that we did not have any more civil unrest after the 2011 riots. I suspect that once this mob really get into their stride that may not be the case this time around; when people have nothing left to lose then prison is no deterrent.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:49 pm

pk1 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects
‏@britainelects Labour leader preference (Survation / 08-09 May)
Burnham 14%
Ummuna 12%
Cooper 11%
Jarvis 6%
Hunt 6%
Kendall 5%
Reeves 4%
(DK) 41%

Interesting, but important to remember that at this stage scores say far more about recognition than anything else
And not forgetting also that polling is barely credible at the moment !

Exactly.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:
pk1 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: Interesting, but important to remember that at this stage scores say far more about recognition than anything else
And not forgetting also that polling is barely credible at the moment !

Exactly.

Oh agree entirely - only posted to show polling already started. Doesn't even say if this is Labour members or general population.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:53 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Montgomerie Advises Quick Action on Tricky Legislation.jpg

Tim Montgomerie ن @montie · 10h 10 hours ago
Me in @TheTimes: 10 ways Cameron might avoid the crippling divisions of the 1992 parliament http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/c ... 435226.ece …
Wants to get those boundary changes done and dusted well before 2018 then.

It is imperative that Labour get on and select a leader.

In the meantime Harman is useless so she had better sort out an aggressive front bench team. Who is Shadow Chancellor?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 8:53 pm

Goodnight (everyone).

See - I can do it.