Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

[rebeccariots2]

Barry Sheerman ‏@BarrySheerman 14m14 minutes ago
Our Party should be very careful those who organised for Ed are determined to thwart the will of Party members & MPs again!

Oh that's what he's on about.

[Lonewolfie]

Hi FTN....b fab*

OK....haven't a lot of time so haven't read many posts, so, as ever, apologies if what I say's been said/covered.

1 Total voting public against TCC** = 66%
2 %age of total votes available in support of TCC = 25%
3 A non-vote (34%) is a vote against TCC (If they wanted him, they'd have voted for him)

So - on 25% of the possible vote, TCC can wreak his inhuman onmishambolic frackwittery, completely untroubled by needing to 'do any detail' or take any responsibility.

We are governed by consent.

I no longer give my consent.

Vote reform now - and by now, I mean now - today....not tomorrow, next week or the year 2020 - too many people will have died by then and it is too important.

I am aware that a system of PR would throw up 83 UKIP MPs - whatever I may think of them and their (MiliLabour-lite) policies, as with the BNP et al - if they receive votes their participation is valid and counts (and, they have a certain amount of actual media clout (Daily Excess/Desmond) ditto the Greens - large numbers (I suspect) of newly politically-active students (recently registered and now 'doing the math' as Tory Blur would've said)...but...as has been mentioned - the 'Left' (or 'us', as I prefer to refer to anti-TCC, anti-Murchydochian anti-neoliberals) needs a single issue to focus on - and I believe(TM) that this is it ...the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

This bastard administration will try to make the boundary changes in double-quick time. The opportunity for campaigning for a fair voting system starts right there - if you (the 'Government') are changing the terms of elections, we demand to be consulted (and that consultation WILL include voting reform) - again, a clued-up and active youth on social media, backed by @rustyrockets and the like, will add strength.

On possible Labour leaders...

Burnham - I'm surprised some here don't want him - on Mid-Staffs, CunTNHS (sorry - couldn't resist ) etc, all anyone has had to do is stand up and say 'read the reports....they're here look....now tell the truth...because we are'....then Burnham goes for the jugular on his specialist subject, the NHS'...agreed, lack of detail my hold him back, but I see his support for the NHS as positive, not negative.

Dan Jarvis - hmmm - not sure if I'm the only 'old soldier' on here, but I hope you can accept that I served (with pride) in the military but also hope that I've demonstrated a 'left of centre' outlook...it is possible to be both (When I joined in the late 70s, the great hope was that we would turn into a peace-keeping force, in support of the UN...and Britain was, at that time, a Socialist Paradise)
He would, without doubt, be the best candidate for undermining the pomposity and superiority complex of Clouncy and his Murkydochian Monsters....the best outcome I can think of would be Dan Jarvis continuing the Milibandian march to the left. (On another note, losing Balls has a silver lining - the new Shadow Chancellor will not have been anywhere near (tin-foil hat on) the Bilderberg Group (as has every Chancellor and PM since it's inception in 1956) (tin-foil hat off) so should understand actual economics, not the pretend version that's been shoved down our throats for 40 years....and start quoting Krugman, Stiglitz (and possibly Marx, just to make them realise that far from being 'outdated', Marx describes the current situation accurately (and indeed, Marx was just extending evidence-based theories from throughout history)) et al.

I really don't know enough about the other potential candidates (Lammy/Umunna too Blairite? Eagle v. good as is Creasey from what I've seen, which, as I say, ain't much!)

There was going to be more, but you'll be pleased to hear I've got to go....suffice to say, 48 hours of extreme self-medication has (as it did in '92) restored a little glimmer of hope (and that's all you need to start with). I'm very close to joining a political party, but am torn. Greens really say what I want to hear and have, against all the odds, managed come out of this election absolutely in tact (helped, within the MSM by the 'anti-Labour party' tag assigned to them by TCC and his useful idiots) and with reputation enhanced....yet with Labour I can influence the selection of the next PM (who may take office way before 2020) and join the anti-banskter agitation from within....it'll take a bit more thinking though, I think (seriously - apologies for lots of stuff but mostly for that tautology).

I live in hope for a rainbow coalition (that includes the Purples - it is not unreasonable to want their MSM support) actively campaigning for change the voting/electoral system immediately. The poor, disabled, sick, retired, the Police, the Firefighters, the NHS and its' staff, the badgers and other wildlife, the legal profession, students - in fact anyone who did not vote Tory (75% of the population) need it to happen...and never, ever give up...hope!!

...and again, THANK YOU FTN, for being here and helping to ease the pain.

(Unbeleivably, I pressed preview, saw something from RR2 re electoral reform and Caroline Lucas, so will press submit and then read it )

*back for a bit
** that c**t Cameron

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Hello everyone,

I haven't been here for a few days because frankly I've been too angry to write anything constructive that wouldn't upset a few people and that's just not who I am so best that I keep my opinions to myself for a time.

I'm also too depressed to even want to think about politics right now. Much of the last five years have been one long period of stress; watching the service I worked for and loved, and all the good we had done, systematically cut to death; my friends being mentally broken by the pressure put on them; my own health (mental and otherwise) going backwards, money worries and redundancies (or the horrible limbo you live in as you are officially put on threat of redundancy each year and left unable to live normally for the next 9 months before they tell you who is for the chop).

The prospect of another 5 years of that (and worse) is just too much for me right now and so I'm taking a leaf out of the book of the sheeple who daydream their way through life without seeing the shit they live in or how easily manipulated they are (I did say I was angry) and taking a step back from even thinking about politics for a time. Right now thinking about this stuff, important though it is, just makes me feel depressed and having lived through depression some years ago there is no way I'm going to feed that feeling if I can help it.

I love this place and everyone here and I will be back at some point. I'm writing this because I didn't want anyone to worry about my 'disappearance'.

Take care, I'll see you later.

Hang on in there mate. You will be missed, but appreciate space & time are what you need now. (Space & time, why can't you find a Tardis when you need one?)

[TechnicalEphemera]

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 1m1 minute ago
Labour leadership latest. Chuka Umunna on Marr. Liz Kendall on Sunday Politics. Tristram Hunt on Pienaar's Politics

I'm absolutely f****ing fed up with them and this already. And I'm barely reading anything online or print papers, and am not watching TV or listening to the radio.

None of the above for me.
Morning all.
I'm sticking to R3 and R4E at present.

Don't know Kendall but Hunt was utterly useless against Gove and the idea Umunna is anything other than a bland policy wonk in a suit is a fantasy.

Here is what the Daily Mail will run with.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Obama.html

[rebeccariots2]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

Well quite. But better now than never and we have to hope such sentiments can be sustained and practically built on.

[ephemerid]

Cameron says, all the time, that his last government made £20 Billion's worth of cuts to social security.
I can find zero actual evidence of this.
However, what we DO know is that the savings were in the region of £2 Billion.
Patrick Butler has a good article on this.

As the spend on working-age social security, especially Housing Benefit, has increased by tens of billions despite the £20BN in cuts, what was the point of them? I think we can see that in what will happen next.
I suspect that the next set of people to be hit by bedroom tax will be pensioners. There is no other way the Mirror's claims can be true otherwise, as the pensioners are the single largest group of "over-occupiers".

The failure to actually save much money, despite cutting vital support to millions of people, is something the Tories cannot compute; so they lie about it instead. They have spent more than ever, whilst simultaneously reducing millions to penury and worse.

They are doing the same thing with health, education, justice - health especially. They have spent more, but not on the services people need.
All that money has gone to re-organisation, private providers, and the pay of new tiers of administration, contract and legal fees, management, etc.etc. while the waiting lists increase and people are nursed in tents outside overcrowded A&E departments.

I hope that the slender majority in the House and a few rebels will act as a brake - but the Tories have form from last time in enacting retrospective legislation, enforcing passage of Bills by invoking things like Commons Financial Privilege, and generally pushing things through that were never part of their manifesto and were totally unjust - and our elected representatives could do nothing to stop them.
I suspect this will happen more often - if Cameron does not get his way (or the way of his ministers, as Dave doesn't do detail and has little idea of what they're up to) he will find any means, fair or foul, to implement what he sees fit whether he understands it or not.

Now that the worst of the depression has lifted a bit, and I am getting ready to fight all over again, weary of it though I am, the fear is back in spades. I really am very worried.
While the Labour grandees weigh in yet again with their "advice", and the left (as is sadly so often the case) engages in internecine squabbling about the leadership of Labour, the role of unions/greens/whatever, the Tories are planning to remove our rights to protest and a hundred other things that have taken decades to build.

I was hoping that Labour would pause a bit; I was hoping they'd have a long hard think about themselves and Ed's campaign. They have lost the best leader since I can remember, and now they're pratting about in the time-honoured fashion scrabbling for answers that will not be found in the handbag of Cooper or the machinations of Blair.
Ed understood that it's all about the PEOPLE. You, me, everyone. Without him, I suspect Labour will go back to Blairism, and some old acolyte of his will become leader or some suave Tory-lite Umunna type with all the presentation skills but no real red fire in his belly. Some of the unions have already seen the writing on the wall and are off.
I'll vote for the candidate who I think might just understand that we need to do this differently - more of the same and I'm off too.

[Lonewolfie]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

So, having read it, I see Ms Lucas is happy to wait - the opressed and starving citizens of Britain cannot wait - this needs to be immediate....more later (in the week).

[TechnicalEphemera]

Barry Sheerman ‏@BarrySheerman 14m14 minutes ago
Our Party should be very careful those who organised for Ed are determined to thwart the will of Party members & MPs again!

Oh that's what he's on about.

Tosser then, system has changed and nobody stopped me voting for who I wanted.

If the left have a good enough candidate bring them forward. They need gravitas and a solution to the SNP UKIP issue South of the border.

I take issue by the way with the idea Blairism would work today. Business doesn't need Labour it has Cameron. Labour can never offer the same benefits he can (mainly personal tax avoidance and slashing of public services). Labour's policy on business was arguably better than Cameron's in many ways, but all the CEOs care about is personal wealth.

Businesses only switched to Blair after the ERM debacle and then only when it was bloody obvious Major was going to lose. Smith tried with his prawn cocktail offensive and was ignored.

What serious business would vote for an EU referendum? Answer none.

[rebeccariots2]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

So, having read it, I see Ms Lucas is happy to wait - the opressed and starving citizens of Britain cannot wait - this needs to be immediate....more later (in the week).

I think she's recognising that just as the situation so clearly lets people down big time ... the odds of getting PR are actually much reduced. This Tory government is - as many said they would if they got in - going to nail down every possible avenue for anyone other than themselves to get elected in future. They are not going to give an inch on PR - they'll effectively get rid of the Scots / Union and that gives them a much freer hand to do as they want with England and Wales.

I think she's saying - and I agree - that we are going to have to work together to have any chance of improving the situation in 2020 or whenever the next election is - and then we might just be able to try to sort out PR. Many in Labour would support PR, I believe.

[Swarthlander]

Cameron is apparently good at U-turns according to David Davis on the Andrew Marr Show, giving a few early examples. Yes David, but surely he should have learned to get things correct first time.Seemingly not. Worse still is that when he does push on he is generally wrong.

Reading betwen the lines then, Cameron will do what he is told by the 1922 committee. If he goes in the wrong direction they will turn him back. He is not a strong leader.

According to the Torygraph, Salmond is pushing for independence once more and nothing will stop him.
According to HuffPost if Scotland goes independent there would be an imigration problem caused by the North English moving further north.
According to the Heil, Labour supporters want David Miliband as leader.
According to the MSM in general, Chuka Umunna will be the new leader (if that happens then I quit).



Good morning.

[AngryAsWell]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

To late, we have lost not just the election but the best, most honest, lovely PM we could have had in decades. We have no one to take his place, they have split us asunder, the party now will be driven back to the right no matter what we try to do. We have lost, they have broken my heart.
This is the point I made late night, Ed Balls lost his seat to just over 400 votes, the Green candidate took 2000 votes.
They knew, they knew that they stood not a snow balls hope in hell of taking these seats yet stood in them anyway knowing they were taking vital marginal votes and therefore letting in the torys, and that people would suffer because of their actions.
I can never understand or forgive them for this act of selfish, self important, sheer bloody don't-give-a-dam vandalism.
Others can do what they want, I want nothing to do with them.

[tinyclanger2]

If Chuka Umanna becomes leader then there is effectively no Labour party.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

So, having read it, I see Ms Lucas is happy to wait - the opressed and starving citizens of Britain cannot wait - this needs to be immediate....more later (in the week).

Of course she is prepared to wait. Again it is something that has been said time & again, most of those talking about building a new party, a real alternative on the Left etc tend to be very comfortable thankyousomuch; when you have kids and have to choose between heating and eating (and probably not you eating at that) you can afford the luxury of waiting. I've been in that situation, which is why I knew we had to do something this time not at some point down the road; it is why I have nothing but utter contempt for people like Jack Monroe who, now they are comfortable, have effectively worked to take away from people the (admittedly meagre) help they had themselves give me Jo Rowling over Monroe any day.

[yahyah]

I've signed up to Labour as a paid member. I can't look at my kids in five years time and say that I didn't do every thing I could to stop a third term. So, the autopsy.

The rebuttal unit. What was needed was a calm forensic explanation of what actually happened in the crisis; where the money was spent and mea culpas where mistakes had been made (millennium dome etc. .) Ed should also too loyal to the past and should have made it clear that policies change, but basic principles remain.
Scotland. Nothing was ever so bad. Ed was so forced to defend Scottish candidates that he and Murphy appeared slippery and deceiving. Labour should have stood on a shared ticket with the SNP and made it clear that the main difference would be about whether voters were happy with the union or not. People could see through the false outrage.
Blairism is gone; the Tories have stolen it. What Labour had was a fight in crowded territory with a leader who was a nice guy, but couldn't energise or motivate. He was a technocrat when people wanted anger.
When the exit poll came in I realised that we have to consider the fact that we're the majority. Did everyone who voted Tory do it enthusiastically with a glad heart? Of course not. Those 4million conversations needed to happen before policy decisions and not explaining something to the people. It was all just a bit incoherent and messy. The 2020 campaign has already started, but it needs to respond to what people actually want. Too much was hung on the34% strategy. At the end of the day Labour made an offering and it was rejected. What we don't want to do is offer Tory but with a free ring binder just to get elected; we need to take on those arguments with passion and reason. And if Burnham does stand, I want a million leaflets printed explaining why he isn't to blame for "mid Staffs" in simple language.

Thanks for joining.

[Swarthlander]

...I've been in that situation, which is why I knew we had to do something this time not at some point down the road; it is why I have nothing but utter contempt for people like Jack Monroe who, now they are comfortable, have effectively worked to take away from people the (admittedly meagre) help they had themselves give me Jo Rowling over Monroe any day.

Totally agree.

We will have to get that thank button back.

[mbc1955]

It's been a rough few days, and that's an understatement, since that exit poll kicked the legs out from under any hope I had left of seeing my country start to make the journey back towards what it could be and used to be. I'm not really saying anything original: I'm another of those who feels this as a bereavement, who would pack up and go in an instant if there were not a hope in /hell of being able to do so. Yesterday was an appalling one, my first back at work. I was ok when I was actually doing my job but in between I just wasn't in any fit state for human contact, an alien on a different planet wondering how he was going to fit in with a world he not only loathed, but despised.

For the moment, I just can't take it. I need to get my head together and work out how I'm going to cope with all this, so I'm also taking a step back and sideways, for as long as it takes.

Thank you for your company, your good humour, and the shared grief and despair. I admire the resilience you've shown, far more than I have in me at present, but I need a period of silence in order to be able to function.

I'll see you when I see you.

[yahyah]

''Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.''


A bit bloody late Caroline.

An admission of guilt, the small parties own greed for growth was directly responsible for hurting Labour.

All seems rather hollow. I used to have respect for Lucas, but not any more.
& hopefully the Greens will ditch Bennett, the Tories useful idiot.

[rebeccariots2]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

To late, we have lost not just the election but the best, most honest, lovely PM we could have had in decades. We have no one to take his place, they have split us asunder, the party now will be driven back to the right no matter what we try to do. We have lost, they have broken my heart.
This is the point I made late night, Ed Balls lost his seat to just over 400 votes, the Green candidate took 2000 votes.
They knew, they knew that they stood not a snow balls hope in hell of taking these seats yet stood in them anyway knowing they were taking vital marginal votes and therefore letting in the torys, and that people would suffer because of their actions.
I can never understand or forgive them for this act of selfish, self important, sheer bloody don't-give-a-dam vandalism.
Others can do what they want, I want nothing to do with them.

Just to say I understand and share your anger and loss AAW. I'm trying to find some positives for the future because that's one of my coping strategies ... but I'm feeling the pain too and wouldn't want, for the world, to fall out in any way with you over any of this.

[yahyah]

I'm sorry. I just feel so so angry.

Had achieved a sort of almost optimism and drive on Friday afternoon.
Probably delusion caused by too much coffee and lack of sleep, reality kicking in.

I know anger only really hurts the person who feels it, so it is not healthy.

[ephemerid]

Spacedone - I hope you can come back sooner rather than later.
I understand how you feel - living on a constant knife-edge is not healthy and it affects everything we do. Your knife-edge is the spectre of redundancy; mine is the DWP brown envelope; for many of us, that fear dominates our lives and poisons our thinking.
Have a break if you need it; rest assured that some people still care.

I am now wondering how many people, in a similar position, will just give up on political engagement altogether. Lots. I suspect.
It's understandable, but I really hope it will be temporary for all our sakes.

What I'm about to say is NOT intended as criticism of those who need to rest for a while and cope with their demons - good people are rightly upset at what has happened and what may be the sequelae to the past few days.

But - if we retreat into ourselves and our own concerns for too long, they will have won.
Our personal concerns are not petty, they are important; but they are not the whole shebang.
If we don't fight, the Tories, their shills in the media, will have won.
As far as I am concerned, they have somehow contrived to trounce the left in a battle.
But they haven't won the war yet - and they won't if we keep fighting.

I don't know if my future allegiance will be to Labour. That depends on them.
But the more I see of Toryism in its current malevolent incarnation, the more radical I become.
I was a woolly liberal leftie for a long time. The last government radicalised me.
They have taught me how to hate - but unfortunately for them, the hate is directed squarely at them as people and as policy-makers.
If Labour do not step up to the mark, I will join the TUSC or the Greens.

We were living in difficult and stressful times - look at what Spacedone has posted and weep.
We are now living in perilous times. I do not consider this hyperbole.
People like the moron Rustinpeace are gloating now - God help them if anything bad happens to them.
They will find that what they voted for will destroy them as casually as it has destroyed the lives of many others.

[yahyah]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......

I told you so brings no satisfaction though does it.

I'm sorry, will probably duck out like Spacedone.
Will not learn to love the loony left and will not try and pretend I do.

Lucas is no better than Clegg, she sold people who will suffer down the river.
Too bloody late.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I told you so brings no satisfaction though does it.

No satisfaction, but I do have a righteous anger which is helping to clarify how I feel on some things.

I'm sorry, will probably duck out like Spacedone.
Will not learn to love the loony left and will not try and pretend I do.

Please don't. As with Spacedone, I understand people need time & space, but your voices are valued around here; and as for the rest, we don't have to love them just work with them, not simply on their terms but on term that work for the consensus. If they talk bollocks I will say so and expect them to do likewise.

[rebeccariots2]

I told you so brings no satisfaction though does it.

No satisfaction, but I do have a righteous anger which is helping to clarify how I feel on some things.

I'm sorry, will probably duck out like Spacedone.
Will not learn to love the loony left and will not try and pretend I do.

Please don't. As with Spacedone, I understand people need time & space, but your voices are valued around here; and as for the rest, we don't have to love them just work with them, not simply on their terms but on term that work for the consensus. If they talk bollocks I will say so and expect them to do likewise.

Same from me yahyah. Thank you TGS for saying it much better than I could or have been.

[SpinningHugo]

First he has to create a British Bill of rights.....

Good luck agreeing that.

Then he has to get it through the commons, good luck with that. There are still a few sensible Tories who will vote that down.

Are you sure about that?

For something this barking, probably.

The Tories have a working majority of 16.

https://colinrtalbot.wordpress.com/2015 ... -it-looks/

The DUP also support 'reform'.

The Human Rights Act is gone.

[frightful_oik]

Some cracking posts today. Thanks to all.

Tories will do what they did last time I reckon. Which is to blitzkrieg all the difficult stuff while the left are still feeling sorry for themselves. Labour in particular must be ready for this and lead an effective opposition. Labour must not allow the Tories to establish the narrative like they did last time despite the leadership contest.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Paul Flynn, hardly a died in the wool Blairite has come out, already for Chuka Umuna.

And, now it starts. Please don't let there be a huge period of navel gazing, angst ridden articles, one after another. 6 weeks at the most.

[AngryAsWell]

Some cracking posts today. Thanks to all.

Tories will do what they did last time I reckon. Which is to blitzkrieg all the difficult stuff while the left are still feeling sorry for themselves. Labour in particular must be ready for this and lead an effective opposition. Labour must not allow the Tories to establish the narrative like they did last time despite the leadership contest.

We don't even have a leader, never mind a good one, and won't till September, so I'm afraid its all dark with not even a glimmer of hope.

[AngryAsWell]

Spacedon, mbc1955, Yahyah (hope I've not missed anyone) I understand completely - take care and come back soon - please

[tinyclanger2]

We all have different ways of dealing with stuff, but our goals remain roughly aligned. The progressive parties have ****ed up totally, starting with the LibDems forming an alliance with the Tories rather than Labour, then with Labour spending ages ****ing about getting a new leader and finishing (to date) with the Greens standing candidates against Labour in marginal seats. It was all stupid and futile, but it will all the more stupid and futile if we only suffer the consequences without learning and acting on them.

There is an existing infrastructure to build on. Parties, initiatives, movements. It takes skilled, dedicated connected people - like RR2 - to start working on this straight away. I've complained for 10 years about the left splitting because they don't agree on everything - and have realised (through the collective and eclectic wisdom of FTN) my only option is to start trying to apply that insight to myself.

[Swarthlander]

The Liberals have been destroyed (quite rightly) and Mr Ashdown is taking a lot of flack because of his (and others) 'centrist' stategy. The grass root activist membership (what's left of them) are now looking for a more left of centre stance.
If Labour move to a centrist position (a la Blair with Umunna in charge) then the Liberal could become more left-wing than Labour.

[tinyclanger2]

Spacedon, mbc1955, Yahyah (hope I've not missed anyone) I understand completely - take care and come back soon - please

agreed

[AngryAsWell]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

To late, we have lost not just the election but the best, most honest, lovely PM we could have had in decades. We have no one to take his place, they have split us asunder, the party now will be driven back to the right no matter what we try to do. We have lost, they have broken my heart.
This is the point I made late night, Ed Balls lost his seat to just over 400 votes, the Green candidate took 2000 votes.
They knew, they knew that they stood not a snow balls hope in hell of taking these seats yet stood in them anyway knowing they were taking vital marginal votes and therefore letting in the torys, and that people would suffer because of their actions.
I can never understand or forgive them for this act of selfish, self important, sheer bloody don't-give-a-dam vandalism.
Others can do what they want, I want nothing to do with them.

Just to say I understand and share your anger and loss AAW. I'm trying to find some positives for the future because that's one of my coping strategies ... but I'm feeling the pain too and wouldn't want, for the world, to fall out in any way with you over any of this.

Appreciate that RR, and I would not fall out over the Greens - they have done enough damage without loss of friendship over them.

[tinyclanger2]

Some cracking posts today. Thanks to all.

Tories will do what they did last time I reckon. Which is to blitzkrieg all the difficult stuff while the left are still feeling sorry for themselves. Labour in particular must be ready for this and lead an effective opposition. Labour must not allow the Tories to establish the narrative like they did last time despite the leadership contest.

EXACTLY - it's not about "them" (the Labour in club) it's about "us" the real people the party is supposed to represent. Well start ****ing asking us how we want you to do that.

[Swarthlander]

Re this morning's TV/Radio interviews:

Mandelson and 'New Labour' are not the answer I am looking for.

[tinyclanger2]

Labour insiders - how can we best work to effectively influence what Labour does next?

[rebeccariots2]

I'm getting a sense that the former big cheeses of the party - whether on the sidelines or still active - have decided already they know who the next leader should be ... and the usual media hacks will follow the line.

I'm getting myself prepared for the endless 'we elected the wrong leader' jibes should we not follow their choice.

[AngryAsWell]

Labour insiders - how can we best work to effectively influence what Labour does next?

I really don't know, it will be September before we get a leader so the party will be rudderless till then. In that time Blair et al will have snatched the party back and inserted whoever they think they can pull the string of. This is part of why I'm so bloody angry.

[rebeccariots2]

Message for Tory Ukip Voters.jpg (65.96 KiB) Viewed 7379 times

[rebeccariots2]

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 2m2 minutes ago
If Tristram Hunt is indeed going for the leadership, as it sounded like it on #Murnaghan, that’s a big prob for Chuka

FFS. These people need to get out of London a bit.

[AngryAsWell]

Dave Jones ‏@WelshGasDoc · 3 mins3 minutes ago
Dan Jarvis' voting record: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25067/ ... tral/votes … Also works very hard in the House too http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25067/ ... ey_central …

[tinyclanger2]

Labour insiders - how can we best work to effectively influence what Labour does next?

I really don't know, it will be September before we get a leader so the party will be rudderless till then. In that time Blair et al will have snatched the party back and inserted whoever they think they can pull the string of. This is part of why I'm so bloody angry.

I mean how do we exert influence now so they do the leadership thing differently. They need to understand that they need to, as RR2 has just put it, look outside of London at their actual membership and CONSULT US urgently on next steps.

They have the online infrastructure to do it pretty easily so let's get the consultation started now and the leadership wrapped up in 6 weeks.

Obviously I can contact them directly, but I am wondering if there is a fast, doable way, to contact them more effectively - or at least organise it so they are contacted separately en masse (if you see what I mean).

[AngryAsWell]

Labour insiders - how can we best work to effectively influence what Labour does next?

I really don't know, it will be September before we get a leader so the party will be rudderless till then. In that time Blair et al will have snatched the party back and inserted whoever they think they can pull the string of. This is part of why I'm so bloody angry.

I mean how do we exert influence now so they do the leadership thing differently. They need to understand that they need to, as RR2 has just put it, look outside of London at their actual membership and CONSULT US urgently on next steps.

They have the online infrastructure to do it pretty easily so let's get the consultation started now and the leadership wrapped up in 6 weeks.

Obviously I can contact them directly, but I am wondering if there is a fast, doable way, to contact them more effectively - or at least organise it so they are contacted separately en masse (if you see what I mean).

The Labour machinery is slow and laborious. First the candidate find 33 people to support the candidateship then they declare they are standing. Then there will be meetings & "town hall" discussion where they put their ideas and visions to members, followed by a first round vote. Those that survive continue with more meeting & town hall talks, and another vote where the losers drop out.
How long this goes on depends on how many candidates there are.
That's sort of right, I'm sure AK or someone can fill in more details. Hope it helps a bit.

[rebeccariots2]

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
One of ironies of Tory opposition to Lords reform: there’s a huge Lib-Lab blocking majority (315 peers to Con 224). One to watch folks

A small silver ... or should that be ermine ... lining?

[SpinningHugo]

Message for Tory Ukip Voters.jpg

Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.

[rebeccariots2]

Message for Tory Ukip Voters.jpg

Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.

You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.

[SpinningHugo]

Message for Tory Ukip Voters.jpg

Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.

You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.

Absolutely there is anger.

But MPs tweeting stuff like this are idiots.

On election night Kinnock was blaming the electorate as 'deluded'.

Well, you aren't going to win by blaming the electorate. You make the problem worse.

[rebeccariots2]

Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.

You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.

Absolutely there is anger.

But MPs tweeting stuff like this are idiots.

On election night Kinnock was blaming the electorate as 'deluded'.

Well, you aren't going to win by blaming the electorate. You make the problem worse.

Agree MPs can't blame the electorate. I also think there is merit in getting back out there and doing almost the reverse / rewind of the election canvassing - going to the non voters, againsts and undecideds - and having a discussion about what does and doesn't matter to them.

[tinyclanger2]

Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.

You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.

Absolutely there is anger.

But MPs tweeting stuff like this are idiots.

On election night Kinnock was blaming the electorate as 'deluded'.

Well, you aren't going to win by blaming the electorate. You make the problem worse.

I agree. Schadenfreude feels great and wins nothing. It's what I mean about trying to learn from (my own) anger rather than let it rule what I do. This is new for me so bear with me. Am trying to focus on the mission, which is to make things less bad in the short term and better later on.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 2m2 minutes ago
If Tristram Hunt is indeed going for the leadership, as it sounded like it on #Murnaghan, that’s a big prob for Chuka

FFS. These people need to get out of London a bit.

To be fair to Hunt he does have a good feel for the regions; it was his area of speciality as a historian and I'd lay money he had a massive amount of influence on the regionalisation policies. He is ferociously intelligent, very well meaning and passionate, but he seems unable to project that; he'd be a better choice than Chuka, but not much better.

As for Mandelson, he is the answer to a question nobody is asking any longer and he (and the Guardian) need to get that.