Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:06 pm

Liz Kendall has confirmed she is standing for the Leadership

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:06 pm

Ed Miliband appealed to our better nature. Our sense of right and wrong. Good and bad.

A lot of us have it.

Thursday proved even more haven't.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:09 pm

I am saddened that people here whose contributions I value and learn from are taking a break.
Please don't stay away too long - I need you all for my sanity and to put me right when I'm wrong.

I am torn now. I am very worried about Labour and the direction they might take.
I can't, in all conscience, support a Blairite-type who may not put the needs of our poorest first.
Business is important, but without decent public services the people are screwed.

I can't and won't support a leader, or a party, that kowtows to a "public opinion" which has been formed by lies from the media.
The current bunch of Tories will probably go too far, such is their arrogance; "public opinion" will veer left, and soon, I think.
When people finally have it thumped into them that their old, their young, their sick, their disabled, and themselves if they are working and barely coping, who will not have a real NHS, a decent education, a safety net with out forced workfare, and proper justice, they'll be sorry.

I don't want another fucking shiny suit spouting neoliberal policies with a bleat that he/she will be a bit nicer - I want Ed, but if I can have him then Jarvis will be OK and Hunt at a push; I do not believe that it was Ed's perceived "left-ness" that lost the election, I think it was the Tory lies about Scotland, their lies about the EU, and their much-vaunted but utterly discredited boasts of economic competence that won it.

I've been saying for 5 years that we have been lied to on a massive scale.
People who don't think much about politics accpt what they read in their papers and believe what the BBC tells them; they don't get that their papers are corrupted by their owners or that the BBC has turned into a right-wing apologist afraid of losing its' licence.
People of working class origin, people who have done OK but want to keep what they've worked for, have bought in to UKIP's vile agitprop and want out of the EU because they believe that it is responsible for what few woes they have, so they voted Tory or UKIP.
I have always supported the right of all four UK countries to self-determination - but what the SNP has done is utterly selfish and has assisted the Tories; how Sturgeon will deal with the aftermath depends on what crumbs Cameron chooses to give her.

Politics in this country has changed. British people have seen coalition and seemingly don't like it. I think it's up to us and others like us to show how it can work - and if we have to do that out of government then so be it.
Hugo said somewhere here the other day that Labour can't move left in opposition, but only in government - that may have been true until now, but I think the landscape has changed. Labour, Greens, and independents like the NHA and TUSC parties could and should sort out their differences as soon as possible and get a consensus on the big issues.
If they can stop with their navel-gazing and petty arguments, however much they want to point fingers at each other for splitting the vote etc., they can build an alternative that will be a real threat - the Tories will be gerrymandering for all they're worth over this Parliament, and any left-leaning coalition needs to be big and strong to mount an effective campaign in future.

That's why I won't give up. I cannot stand the idea that we will end up with a Tory boot stamped on our faces forever. It cannot happen.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:10 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Ed Miliband appealed to our better nature. Our sense of right and wrong. Good and bad.

A lot of us have it.

Thursday proved even more haven't.

One of the best posts on the thread. I'm sorry. I love you dearly.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:11 pm

On Twitter. Apparently Labour Party membership is suddenly on a surge.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:11 pm

McBride has a piece in the ST today "farewell to Ed Balls, master economist, cake baker and a good mate" glad I can't read it, I'd probably cry.

Ed FFS, three days on I still can't believe it and take it in.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:12 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Ed Miliband appealed to our better nature. Our sense of right and wrong. Good and bad.

A lot of us have it.

Thursday proved even more haven't.
One of the best posts on the thread. I'm sorry. I love you dearly.

You're thanked and hugged.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:15 pm

Ephemerid

That's why I won't give up. I cannot stand the idea that we will end up with a Tory boot stamped on our faces forever. It cannot happen.

I will not give up. I love you too much to give up. My love is strong & important. I was taught this young.
I may not win, I may not succeed, but I will never give up, I will never stop loving & I may need to cry & have chocolate sometimes.
Has anyone any welshcakes, please?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:15 pm

ohsocynical wrote:On Twitter. Apparently Labour Party membership is suddenly on a surge.

Any more info on that?
I have a feeling that there is a tide turning and we need to be ready to use it to the country's best advantage.
(Have I mentioned my blind optimism at any point. Like Adrian Monk's OCD it's a gift and a curse and gift and a ....)

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:16 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.
The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......
Did Ed Miliband suggest this to the Greens and other parties? No he didn't. Are Labour leaders suggesting it now? Not so far as I'm aware. Why, why, why, must it be the Greens and others that bow to Labour? Why the fuck can't Labour understand they don't have a god given right to Green votes? If they want our votes, there has to be an compromise on both sides.

Tizme, where in my post have I suggested that the Greens bow to Labour? I haven't. I'm talking about co-operation between parties which will involve compromise and support all ways as far as I am concerned. Please don't leap to put your interpretation on my reporting of something Lucas herself is suggesting. My ideas for around here certainly don't involve a one way bowing to Labour - anything but. Disappointed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:20 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:McBride has a piece in the ST today "farewell to Ed Balls, master economist, cake baker and a good mate" glad I can't read it, I'd probably cry.

Ed FFS, three days on I still can't believe it and take it in.

Me neither.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:22 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: Possibly and I did think quite hard about it. But I do feel it needed to be said even if I don't usually like indulging in insults. Otherwise I'd basically be saying it's OK to insult me.
I am learning (rather late in the day) that there is a difference between one wanting to say something, and it actually needing to be said. Or at least there might be different and better ways to say it.

Anyroad. Sod it. Let's build the Grand Coalition of the Left and get these buggers dealt with. Starting with making sure the "Labour leadership" don't cock it up more than they have to.
Lets go for the 'third way' and agree that maybe I needed to say it?

Totally agree with regards building the Grand Coalition. Have to say though it was tried to some extent with the Coalition of Resistance after the 2010 election. The basic premise of that being anyone but a Tory could be included. Indeed a number of Labour and Greens were involved including Caroline Lucas and some Labour MPs such as John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. And yours truly.

I have not insulted you, I have expressed my opinion about the Green Party, you want to take that personally do so. I can't stop you, but I have aimed nothing at you personally or it would contain your name.
I don't ask you to change your opinions - don't ask me to change mine.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:22 pm

Sophy Ridge @SophyRidgeSky · 21h 21 hours ago
Harriet Harman to unveil Shadow Cabinet on Monday. Hearing rumours Chris Leslie to Shadow Chancellor

and

Faisal Islam @faisalislam · 3h 3 hours ago
... Just imagine the new dynamic every week at PMQs for Labour..Confident majority PM, confident oppositional SNP leader getting 2 questions

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:24 pm

Ephe, that's your second cracking post on this thread. No thanks button yet but worth a post to say thanks. I think as you do that some business-friendly Neoliberal in a smart suit is the last thing that's needed. Who is confirmed to be standing so far?
Umunna, no.
Kendall, not ready.
Hunt - too bland
anyone I've missed?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:26 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Barry Sheerman ‏@BarrySheerman 14m14 minutes ago
Our Party should be very careful those who organised for Ed are determined to thwart the will of Party members & MPs again!
Oh that's what he's on about.

He doesn't know that the way of electing our leader was changed last year? By Ed???

Jesus Christ

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:26 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: The irony of Lucas saying what we had been saying all along .......
Did Ed Miliband suggest this to the Greens and other parties? No he didn't. Are Labour leaders suggesting it now? Not so far as I'm aware. Why, why, why, must it be the Greens and others that bow to Labour? Why the fuck can't Labour understand they don't have a god given right to Green votes? If they want our votes, there has to be an compromise on both sides.
Tizme, where in my post have I suggested that the Greens bow to Labour? I haven't. I'm talking about co-operation between parties which will involve compromise and support all ways as far as I am concerned. Please don't leap to put your interpretation on my reporting of something Lucas herself is suggesting. My ideas for around here certainly don't involve a one way bowing to Labour - anything but. Disappointed.

I was responding to Grim.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:28 pm

pk1 wrote:Sophy Ridge @SophyRidgeSky · 21h 21 hours ago
Harriet Harman to unveil Shadow Cabinet on Monday. Hearing rumours Chris Leslie to Shadow Chancellor

and

Faisal Islam @faisalislam · 3h 3 hours ago
... Just imagine the new dynamic every week at PMQs for Labour..Confident majority PM, confident oppositional SNP leader getting 2 questions

Chris Leslie did well in the campaign and was one of the few to actually get out there in front of the camera. Wonder if he will stand?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:29 pm

frightful_oik wrote:Ephe, that's your second cracking post on this thread. No thanks button yet but worth a post to say thanks. I think as you do that some business-friendly Neoliberal in a smart suit is the last thing that's needed. Who is confirmed to be standing so far?
Umunna, no.
Kendall, not ready.
Hunt - too bland
anyone I've missed?

Dan Jarvis

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:33 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: I am learning (rather late in the day) that there is a difference between one wanting to say something, and it actually needing to be said. Or at least there might be different and better ways to say it.

Anyroad. Sod it. Let's build the Grand Coalition of the Left and get these buggers dealt with. Starting with making sure the "Labour leadership" don't cock it up more than they have to.
Lets go for the 'third way' and agree that maybe I needed to say it?

Totally agree with regards building the Grand Coalition. Have to say though it was tried to some extent with the Coalition of Resistance after the 2010 election. The basic premise of that being anyone but a Tory could be included. Indeed a number of Labour and Greens were involved including Caroline Lucas and some Labour MPs such as John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. And yours truly.
I have not insulted you, I have expressed my opinion about the Green Party, you want to take that personally do so. I can't stop you, but I have aimed nothing at you personally or it would contain your name.
I don't ask you to change your opinions - don't ask me to change mine.

I am a Green. Your comment insulted Greens. You and some others have on occasion asked that as a Green, I change my view and vote Labour in order to keep out the Tories. You have expressed your view about the Green party. I have expressed my response. I don't think we really need to pursue it any further. We won't reach agreement on this. At least not at the moment.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:34 pm

Ephemerid said: "I can't and won't support a leader, or a party, that kowtows to a "public opinion" which has been formed by lies from the media."

I wholeheartedly agree. And to a great extent, Tony Blair is culpable for not using his position to address this problem - both in terms of reigning in the over-powerful press and improving the education system in terms of "civics" or whatever is your nomenclature of choice. As I've mentioned previously, I wrote to Labour saying that this (the education bit) was something that should be addressed, and I received a fairly dismissive and snippy response for my pains.

I think that demonstrated an enormous lack of vision and foresight. And that's being charitable.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:34 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.
To late, we have lost not just the election but the best, most honest, lovely PM we could have had in decades. We have no one to take his place, they have split us asunder, the party now will be driven back to the right no matter what we try to do. We have lost, they have broken my heart.
This is the point I made late night, Ed Balls lost his seat to just over 400 votes, the Green candidate took 2000 votes.
They knew, they knew that they stood not a snow balls hope in hell of taking these seats yet stood in them anyway knowing they were taking vital marginal votes and therefore letting in the torys, and that people would suffer because of their actions.
I can never understand or forgive them for this act of selfish, self important, sheer bloody don't-give-a-dam vandalism.
Others can do what they want, I want nothing to do with them.

I slightly disagree with this, and have never been convinced by electoral pacts.

Where the Greens, Nats and far left went wrong was concentrating all their fire on Labour - not the bloody Tories.

There was no need for Lucas (who I have long liked and respected) to parrot the "Labour signed up to Tory austerity" fib. There was no need for Sturgeon - a formidable and intelligent politician, whatever else you say - to urge people in ENGLAND to vote Green. And there was no need for Wood to......well, anything really

As for TUSC, their sole meaningful act this past week was to hand Gower its first non-Labour MP since 1906.

There are signs that some people in all these parties are having a rethink now, given what has happened. Good.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:38 pm

Just on Tristram Hunt - he wasn't born into a title - Julian Hunt created a life peer in 2000.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:39 pm

Dan Jarvis 4 Leader

https://twitter.com/dan4leader?lang=en-gb

Have started following this account to see if any more information about comes through.
One big problem (for me) is his lack of political experience (which I've criticised Liz Kendall for) but he does have a world of outside experience, would like to know more about his values.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:40 pm

Anatoly, am interested in your reservations on (what you call) electoral pacts (and I what I, possibly naively, see as coordination and best use of resources). I come from a campaigning rather than strictly political background, where coalitions of small NGOs are important in applying political pressure particularly at the international level. As such I will not be aware of the pitfalls you see - can you expand?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:41 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Lord Ashcroft ‏@LordAshcroft · 19 hrs19 hours ago
A democratic system that gives 1 party with 4.7% 56 seats while 2 other parties with 16.4% get 2 seats must be reviewed #royalcommission

He's not wrong, you know.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:42 pm

ephemerid wrote:I am saddened that people here whose contributions I value and learn from are taking a break.
Please don't stay away too long - I need you all for my sanity and to put me right when I'm wrong.

I am torn now. I am very worried about Labour and the direction they might take.
I can't, in all conscience, support a Blairite-type who may not put the needs of our poorest first.
Business is important, but without decent public services the people are screwed.

I can't and won't support a leader, or a party, that kowtows to a "public opinion" which has been formed by lies from the media.
The current bunch of Tories will probably go too far, such is their arrogance; "public opinion" will veer left, and soon, I think.
When people finally have it thumped into them that their old, their young, their sick, their disabled, and themselves if they are working and barely coping, who will not have a real NHS, a decent education, a safety net with out forced workfare, and proper justice, they'll be sorry.

I don't want another fucking shiny suit spouting neoliberal policies with a bleat that he/she will be a bit nicer - I want Ed, but if I can have him then Jarvis will be OK and Hunt at a push; I do not believe that it was Ed's perceived "left-ness" that lost the election, I think it was the Tory lies about Scotland, their lies about the EU, and their much-vaunted but utterly discredited boasts of economic competence that won it.

I've been saying for 5 years that we have been lied to on a massive scale.
People who don't think much about politics accpt what they read in their papers and believe what the BBC tells them; they don't get that their papers are corrupted by their owners or that the BBC has turned into a right-wing apologist afraid of losing its' licence.
People of working class origin, people who have done OK but want to keep what they've worked for, have bought in to UKIP's vile agitprop and want out of the EU because they believe that it is responsible for what few woes they have, so they voted Tory or UKIP.
I have always supported the right of all four UK countries to self-determination - but what the SNP has done is utterly selfish and has assisted the Tories; how Sturgeon will deal with the aftermath depends on what crumbs Cameron chooses to give her.

Politics in this country has changed. British people have seen coalition and seemingly don't like it. I think it's up to us and others like us to show how it can work - and if we have to do that out of government then so be it.
Hugo said somewhere here the other day that Labour can't move left in opposition, but only in government - that may have been true until now, but I think the landscape has changed. Labour, Greens, and independents like the NHA and TUSC parties could and should sort out their differences as soon as possible and get a consensus on the big issues.
If they can stop with their navel-gazing and petty arguments, however much they want to point fingers at each other for splitting the vote etc., they can build an alternative that will be a real threat - the Tories will be gerrymandering for all they're worth over this Parliament, and any left-leaning coalition needs to be big and strong to mount an effective campaign in future.

That's why I won't give up. I cannot stand the idea that we will end up with a Tory boot stamped on our faces forever. It cannot happen.

A lovely post Ephie. I can feel your despair....

For organisations like the BBC and/or newspapers that are so cynically right wing, boycott them. Falling numbers whether it's viewing/listening or buying can have a very salutory affect. It's little enough, but added to our vote, gives us more voice.

I don't have any faith in opposition parties getting together and talking. My mother used to call it 'lip service.' she used to say actions not words are the only thing that counts.
What we saw, especially at the debates, was smaller parties giving lip service to better things, but at the same time making a grab for whatever power they could get. And it'll always be that way.

I am horribly cynical have been for a lot of years and how I saw it [and still do] this election was all about getting the Tories out. End of.
Sod what might happen 50-60-70 or more years down the road. We needed action now.

Ed quietened my distrust of politicians, he showed me how it could be. But he's also inadvertantly, given me glaring proof that my distrust was justified.

I believe it was a once in a lifetime chance. A tiny window of opportunity to return to a more humane decent existence.

I am gutted and will take that to the grave with me.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:42 pm

I forced myself to stay listening to Radio 4 for the one oclock news and views slot while I was gardening. They chose to go to Crawley and Kingston for their post mortems on Lab and Lib candidates failing to get elected. The voters they spoke to in Kingston had voted Lib Dem before and said they voted Tory because they were scared of Ed Miliband getting in and doing a deal with the SNP ... The voters in Crawley were more of a mixed bunch but the SNP scare featured again, lack of clear message, didn't believe what Labour were saying ...

I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:43 pm

Tiz, who the fuck was saying anybody had to bow & scrape to the Labour Party, because it sure as hell wasn't me.

But forget it, none of it fucking matters now anyway.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:44 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Just on Tristram Hunt - he wasn't born into a title - Julian Hunt created a life peer in 2000.

Thank you, RogerOThornhill! My ignorance astonishes me. Many news articles & conversations I've taken part in taught me he was going to inherit a title. I'm glad to be wrong.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:48 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Forget it, none of it fucking matters now anyway.

It matters more now that ever
We need to move forward through the sadness

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:52 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Dan Jarvis 4 Leader

https://twitter.com/dan4leader?lang=en-gb

Have started following this account to see if any more information about comes through.
One big problem (for me) is his lack of political experience (which I've criticised Liz Kendall for) but he does have a world of outside experience, would like to know more about his values.

Dan Jarvis acceptance speech on his election

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:53 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
But forget it, none of it fucking matters now anyway.

Rare for me to disagree with you but I can't agree with this Grim ! It matter so much more now that the bastard tories are in charge !!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:54 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Anatoly, am interested in your reservations on (what you call) electoral pacts (and I what I, possibly naively, see as coordination and best use of resources). I come from a campaigning rather than strictly political background, where coalitions of small NGOs are important in applying political pressure particularly at the international level. As such I will not be aware of the pitfalls you see - can you expand?

Electoral pacts generally don't work as well as people presume they should - its not as simple as just moving blocks of voters about.

(after the last GE, some on the centre-right suggested LibDem/Tory "coalition" pacts - not a great idea for the same reason)

I genuinely have no problem with the Greens standing in every seat - that wasn't where they went wrong, it was (the idea of the utterly ghastly Bennett by all accounts, good riddance) concentrating their fire on Labour rather than doing their utmost to shift the parameters of debate to the left more generally.

Also notable that the Greens didn't stand in some key seats - Bolton W and Lincoln for instance - but it didn't help Labour; shock Tory gain in the first and pro-Tory swing in the other

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:55 pm

Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 12h12 hours ago
Next 5 years ought to be a Golden Age of Theatre & Satire: #Gove as Justice Sec; #EstherMcVey as #LadyMcVey...and #GrantShapps -at HEALTH!

Please tell me McVey isn't destined to go to the Lords?

Seeing this tweet the full ridiculousness and smack in the chops of putting Shapps at health has hit me. The NHS so desperately needs someone good, with gravitas and ability to grasp both the bigger picture and the detail, .... and they've got Shapps the spiv.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:56 pm

Paul Flynn backs Umunna for leader
That's him right out then (not that I would vote for him anyway)
http://labourlist.org/2015/05/paul-flyn ... or-leader/

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:59 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.

I think that's partly what my post about not electing Londoners was about.

Labour is seen to be governed by a team of Londoners who have no 'life' experience beyond Westminster. They speak with the same accent as southern England, not a solitary voice in the senior party from the regions.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 2:59 pm

In all the disappointment and anger, I'd forgotten one thing. I was not Labour. I had moved away from them. I was LibDem before they sold their souls.
I was disgusted at the LibDems perfidy. Have no regrets they were smashed to pieces and will never trust them again. Or vote for them.

I supported Ed. Not the Labour Party per se. and I'm finding all the jostling for power and who might be the next leader is leaving me cold, especially if they turn far right as I suspect they'll have to if they ever want to get in power again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:01 pm

ohsocynical wrote:In all the disappointment and anger, I'd forgotten one thing. I was not Labour. I had moved away from them. I was LibDem before they sold their souls.
I was disgusted at the LibDems perfidy. Have no regrets they were smashed to pieces and will never trust them again. Or vote for them.

I supported Ed. Not the Labour Party per se. and I'm finding all the jostling for power and who might be the next leader is leaving me cold, especially if they turn far right as I suspect they'll have to if they ever want to get in power again.

Have faith - the shift to the right isn't going to happen simply because most Labour members (like you, or me) won't have it.

It is far harder to "fix" the election system the party has now than some seemingly think

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:In all the disappointment and anger, I'd forgotten one thing. I was not Labour. I had moved away from them. I was LibDem before they sold their souls.
I was disgusted at the LibDems perfidy. Have no regrets they were smashed to pieces and will never trust them again. Or vote for them.

I supported Ed. Not the Labour Party per se. and I'm finding all the jostling for power and who might be the next leader is leaving me cold, especially if they turn far right as I suspect they'll have to if they ever want to get in power again.

The hast does seem unseemly, but the campaign will run for weeks so candidates do need to get their declarations in fairly fast and get the (very long) process in motion, unfortunately. They need 33 sponsors so need to act fast before a rival gets the backing of someone they were looking to back them.
(Not very good grammar there but I hope you understand it)

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:In all the disappointment and anger, I'd forgotten one thing. I was not Labour. I had moved away from them. I was LibDem before they sold their souls.
I was disgusted at the LibDems perfidy. Have no regrets they were smashed to pieces and will never trust them again. Or vote for them.

I supported Ed. Not the Labour Party per se. and I'm finding all the jostling for power and who might be the next leader is leaving me cold, especially if they turn far right as I suspect they'll have to if they ever want to get in power again.
Have faith - the shift to the right isn't going to happen simply because most Labour members (like you, or me) won't have it.

It is far harder to "fix" the election system the party has now than some seemingly think

Thank you for that slightly reassuring post. I still worry about the voices that are constantly given the most prominence though - and they have been and still bloody are from the past era. Sends me round the bend.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:07 pm

pk1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.
I think that's partly what my post about not electing Londoners was about.

Labour is seen to be governed by a team of Londoners who have no 'life' experience beyond Westminster. They speak with the same accent as southern England, not a solitary voice in the senior party from the regions.

Which is why Dan is an idea, or Gloria or one of the many other talented MPs in the party. I'd love Chris Bryant to think about it, but I suspect he would be open to too many bigoted attacks to make it feasible, which is as sad a reflection on what the last five years have reduced this nation to as any I can think of.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:09 pm

pk1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.
I think that's partly what my post about not electing Londoners was about.

Labour is seen to be governed by a team of Londoners who have no 'life' experience beyond Westminster. They speak with the same accent as southern England, not a solitary voice in the senior party from the regions.

Is it possible there might be even a small change in that profile in the interim as Harman puts people in place initially?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:09 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Message for Tory Ukip Voters.jpg

My feelings exactly. And the person who starts complaining about couldn't get a hospital appointment or treated like we were in the third world.

We are thanks to them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:11 pm

@TheGrimSqueaker

Ha! I think Dignitas beckons, after all.

Edited to actually write the bloody post!

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:15 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
pk1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.
I think that's partly what my post about not electing Londoners was about.

Labour is seen to be governed by a team of Londoners who have no 'life' experience beyond Westminster. They speak with the same accent as southern England, not a solitary voice in the senior party from the regions.
Is it possible there might be even a small change in that profile in the interim as Harman puts people in place initially?

She has to nominate a Shadow Cabinet so fingers crossed,she puts the right person into the right job.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:16 pm

PorFavor wrote:@TheGrimSqueaker

Ha! I think Dignitas beckons, after all.

Edited to actually write the bloody post!

No, but some people might be finding out what hospital food tastes like .... not you, I hasten to add.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:17 pm

pk1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
I hope we're not going to get a new direction, message and leader mostly based on what is fed back from southern English constituencies and the voices given most prominence by the media though ... that's part of my fear now. There are probably very different responses from across the country ... the things I heard most frequently as negatives about Labour generally were Blair, Iraq, not in touch with us, immigration.
I think that's partly what my post about not electing Londoners was about.

Labour is seen to be governed by a team of Londoners who have no 'life' experience beyond Westminster. They speak with the same accent as southern England, not a solitary voice in the senior party from the regions.

Andy Burnham?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:17 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.
You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.
Absolutely there is anger.

But MPs tweeting stuff like this are idiots.

On election night Kinnock was blaming the electorate as 'deluded'.

Well, you aren't going to win by blaming the electorate. You make the problem worse.

But the electorate have the power. They're the ones that put the cross on the bit of paper. They're the ones who should have the fucking sense to know when they're being lied to, sold a pup, having the wool pulled over their eyes.
They're the ones who are too fucking greedy or prejudice to know they're cutting off their noses to spite their face.

Of course it's the bloody stupid electorate.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:19 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: You have to allow for the anger. I've never seen or heard our normally nondescript neighbour express himself as he did - out of the blue - to us yesterday. We had no idea of his politics before - he never gave a hint of it. He is now so disgusted with 'this country' he just wants to get out of it and away from the people who voted this government in.
Absolutely there is anger.

But MPs tweeting stuff like this are idiots.

On election night Kinnock was blaming the electorate as 'deluded'.

Well, you aren't going to win by blaming the electorate. You make the problem worse.

But the electorate have the power. They're the ones that put the cross on the bit of paper. They're the ones who should have the fucking sense to know when they're being lied to, sold a pup, having the wool pulled over their eyes.
They're the ones who are too fucking greedy or prejudice to know they're cutting off their noses to spite their face.

Of course it's the bloody stupid electorate.

The problem with the electorate is that the loudest voices belong to the most ignorant.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 3:20 pm

If Chuka Umunna thinks appearing side by side with Peter Mandelson on Andrew Neil was a good move I don't trust his ability at all