Saturday 27th and Sunday 28th June 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 6:26 pm

citizenJA wrote:The Greek people are going to vote on whether they accept the creditors' demands or not.
Greece calls snap referendum over eurozone bailout
Alexis Tsipras says government will campaign for no vote as Athens tells finance ministers in Brussels that Greek people need to decide country’s future

The Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, announced in the early hours that the poll would be held on 5 July and the government has said it will campaign for a no vote. The Greek finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, said the government wanted to let voters decide.

“We received 36% of the vote. For a momentous decision of this nature we felt the need to secure 50%+1,” he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... s-brussels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Believe that referendum when I see it. There was going to be one before, with PASOK in charge.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 6:27 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote: I liked the Labour party 2015 manifesto.
Jobs guarantee (real wages for work!), dump Health & Social Care Act 2012, dump Bedroom Tax, regulate Buy-to-Let, private sector housing, rent controls, build more public sector housing, affordable housing, investment in renewable energy infrastructure, Labour PM wouldn't be jerking off in Brussels like the current Tory PM, wasting time, money & making the UK a laughing stock, give the young people plenty of quality things to do, either training, University or apprenticeships, blaze up the Sure Start centres again, NHS staffed & funded properly, ending the institutional harassment of ill & disabled people through IDS' DWP...
The manifesto wasn't responsible for a surge of nationalism in Scotland which, as a unionist party Labour was always going to lose out from. Neither was the manifesto responsible for the collapse of the Libdems. Blair benefited from Labour votes in Scotland and Libdem votes locking the Tories out of many constituencies in the south. Ed didn't enjoy these benefits so he lost. This is why I'm not convinced SH's swing vote strategy will work in 2020. If they are to persuade me otherwise, they have to at least concede that the above advantages Blair enjoyed throughout the New Labour years are no longer in play and explain how they would counter them, if they aren't in favour of trying to win SNP and Ukip voters back.
That we managed to pick up so few of those Lib Dem votes was appalling. Those who did not vote Lib Dem who had before were primarily not those who were happy with a Tory coalition.

As I have said before, there is nothing to be done in Scotland, and even I don't blame Miliband primarily for that (although his weak leadership was a contributing factor).

As I said above, I don't know enough about Labour/Tory marginals further north to understand what went wrong there but here in the south west the Coalition lead to Labour tactical voters along with some Libdems abandoning the Libdems let the Tories back into constituencies they haven't held since the 80s.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:32 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: That we managed to pick up so few of those Lib Dem votes was appalling. Those who did not vote Lib Dem who had before were primarily not those who were happy with a Tory coalition.

As I have said before, there is nothing to be done in Scotland, and even I don't blame Miliband primarily for that (although his weak leadership was a contributing factor).

The Lib Dem vote going so much to the Tories is a valid point. But not sure there is a single reason - such as them wanting more right wing policies - that that can be attributed to. (Some of them may even have wanted more left wing policies than Miliband / Labour was offering ... if they were those that were so disappointed by Clegg going into coalition with the Tories.)

Here we managed to buck that trend. This area voted heavily Lib Dem last time. This time their vote disappeared - and I'm told (can't verify until we get the marked up registers back) that at the count it was about 50 / 50 Labour and Tory - which is amazing if true.

We're going to be out talking to people with a post election 2015 - pre Assembly and council elections survey soon. We'll be asking people why they didn't vote Labour - if they didn't - amongst other questions. Will let you know if we get any interesting information from that.

Edited to sort out the typo in marked up.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:34 pm

Goodnight, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:35 pm

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

Goodnight, PorFavor

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:46 pm

At a branch meeting last night. Lot of dissatisfaction with the way the Labour leadership hustings have - or rather haven't - been arranged in Wales. First there was going to be hustings in Swansea which suddenly disappeared and was changed to Cardiff - with no explanation offered. Now we find the Cardiff venue is far too small for the numbers they should have anticipated and there are hundreds of people who haven't been able to get a ticket and have been put on a reserves list (me included). But mostly anger that in a supposedly Labour stronghold - Wales - they can't be arsed to organise more than a single hustings in Cardiff - as though the rest of Wales doesn't exist. As people were pointing out that's like organising a single hustings in London for England. Bloody insult. They should at the very least have put on a hustings in north Wales - or somewhere accessible to the north and west like Aberystwyth. The general feeling was that the 'extra hour' from Cardiff to Swansea on the train is clearly felt to be too much ... no change there then.

Anyway - the dissatisfaction from west Wales has been fed back via channels and it seems Andy Burnham has got wind of it and offered to come down to Whitland to do a meeting / hustings on the evening before - 4th July. He's not slow off the mark. So now we've got a weird situation where we'd like to take him up on that offer ... but we'd also like the others to come along too. We're going to see what we can do to make that happen.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 8:06 pm

Michael H. retweeted
Jennie Formby ‏@JennieUnite · 3 mins3 minutes ago  London, England
Watch TU #Labourleadership hustings, streamed live 11am 30 June here: http://www.unionstogether.org.uk/hustings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; #TUdebate #labourdebate

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 8:53 pm

They are actually worse than I thought....

"Oh Lord! Deliver Us From The Danczuks!"
"Karen and Simon Danczuk are Labour’s most colourful couple. She is a selfie-obsessed former councillor, he is an outspoken MP and scourge of establishment paedophiles. Camilla Long puts them in the frame:"

http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.co.uk ... czuks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:08 pm

Supermarkets' closing down fail: 50 stores to shut and plans shelved for dozens of others

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/su ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:25 pm

Break the chains of Greece’s debt!

The petition:
We, the citizens of countries across Europe, call for:

◦A European conference to agree debt cancellation for Greece and other countries that need it, informed by debt audits and funded by recovering money from the banks and financial speculators who were the real beneficiaries of bailouts.
◦An end to the enforcing of austerity policies that are causing injustice and poverty in Europe and across the world.
◦The creation of UN rules to deal with government debt crises promptly, fairly and with respect for human rights, and to signal to the banks and financiers that we won’t keep bailing them out for reckless lending.

http://cancelgreekdebt.org/en/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:40 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Break the chains of Greece’s debt!

The petition:
We, the citizens of countries across Europe, call for:

◦A European conference to agree debt cancellation for Greece and other countries that need it, informed by debt audits and funded by recovering money from the banks and financial speculators who were the real beneficiaries of bailouts.
An end to the enforcing of austerity policies that are causing injustice and poverty in Europe and across the world.
◦The creation of UN rules to deal with government debt crises promptly, fairly and with respect for human rights, and to signal to the banks and financiers that we won’t keep bailing them out for reckless lending.

http://cancelgreekdebt.org/en/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The conference would probably decide to do exactly what's being done now...

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:50 pm

Argentina judge orders asset seizure of Falklands oil firms

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-33301540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:55 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Break the chains of Greece’s debt!

The petition:
We, the citizens of countries across Europe, call for:

◦A European conference to agree debt cancellation for Greece and other countries that need it, informed by debt audits and funded by recovering money from the banks and financial speculators who were the real beneficiaries of bailouts.
An end to the enforcing of austerity policies that are causing injustice and poverty in Europe and across the world.
◦The creation of UN rules to deal with government debt crises promptly, fairly and with respect for human rights, and to signal to the banks and financiers that we won’t keep bailing them out for reckless lending.

http://cancelgreekdebt.org/en/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The conference would probably decide to do exactly what's being done now...

Or maybe take a long hard look at the accountants who examined the Greek books & economy, and decided they were OK to join EU and Euro and - perhaps - collect some retribution from them for, at the very least, bad advice.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:16 pm

Accountants were doing what the politicians wanted. Just like the "bureaucrats" are now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:27 pm

Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.

I still can't work out why the European Central Bank haven't bought Greek debt using the QE programme that was supposed be happening like the BoE did here.

Is it maybe because other countries might say "hey, what about ours?"

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:37 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.

I don't pretend to understand all of this, but someone - other than the Greek people - need holding to account over it.
The Accumulation of Greek Debt

http://sevenpillarsinstitute.org/case-studies/1492-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:43 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.
I still can't work out why the European Central Bank haven't bought Greek debt using the QE programme that was supposed be happening like the BoE did here.

Is it maybe because other countries might say "hey, what about ours?"

Teutonic moralism? Not just Germany, but the new Eastern members, I presume, are pretty grim.

The rest of the PIGS probably wouldn't expect QE on their debt too, but they'd certainly get some stick from their electorates.

The Irish Government seem to be popping up talking very hardline stuff v Greece. Same thing their. Why didn't you get some write offs?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:46 pm

I got that wrong. Seems like they can buy bonds, but not Greek or Cypriot ones...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/09e6f250-dd36 ... z3eIkbXnwV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:14 pm

Ministerial statement on 27 June 2015

Ministers from eighteen euro area Member States and the institutions held an informal meeting to discuss the forthcoming expiration of the current [EFSF] European Financial Stability Facility financial arrangement with Greece, after the break-up of the negotiations with the Greek authorities.

The strengthening of [EMU] European Stability Mechanism has been instrumental in helping the euro area to overcome the legacy of the financial crisis. We have notably advanced fiscal consolidation, implemented ambitious structural reforms, improved our fiscal and economic governance, deepened financial integration and established efficient firewalls.

We are in a much stronger position than during the crisis. Euro area Member States intend to make full use of all the instruments available to preserve the integrity and stability of the euro area. This will complement any actions the European Central Bank may take in full independence and in line with its mandate. [EFSF] European Financial Stability Facility and [ESM] European Stability Mechanism remain the strong instruments with our full backing that they have always been.

We commit to take all necessary measures to further improve the resilience of our economies. We stand ready to take decisive steps to strengthen the Economic and Monetary Union.

We stress that the expiry of the [EFSF] European Financial Stability Facility financial arrangement with Greece, without immediate prospects of a follow-up arrangement, will require measures by the Greek authorities, with the technical assistance of the institutions, to safeguard the stability of the Greek financial system. The Euro group will monitor very closely the economic and financial situation in Greece and the Euro group stands ready to reconvene to take appropriate decisions where needed, in the interest of Greece as euro area member.

We stand ready to assist and support Greece and the Greek people as required, following the expiration of the [EFSF] European Financial Stability Facility financial arrangement.

[The statement is adopted by ministers from the euro area Member States, except Greece]

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/press-re ... 989_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really hate acronyms undefined in major press announcements - I added the full name in bold.
Especially really scary announcements like the above.
The more confusion the better, I suppose, that's the reason I had to research what these instruments even mean.
Since Greece is the country apparently requiring the fancy fiscal instruments for an assist, I wonder why it's not just being taken care of?
Greece hasn't made off with food stores other people need to eat, they've not invaded anyone or stolen anything.
Comments below the line have consistently been atrocious monstering of Greece & the Greek people.
Well, it's necessary, isn't it? To justify these bullshit machinations.

'It became necessary to destroy the town in order to save it.'

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:17 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I got that wrong. Seems like they can buy bonds, but not Greek or Cypriot ones...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/09e6f250-dd36 ... z3eIkbXnwV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Funny about that - I hear tell Greece & Cyprus use the euro.
I guess it's the wrong kind of euro.

The European Stability Mechanism is the permanent crisis resolution mechanism for the countries of the euro area. The ESM issues debt instruments in order to finance loans and other forms of financial assistance to euro area Member States.

The decision leading to the creation of the ESM was taken by the European Council in December 2010. The euro area Member States signed an intergovernmental treaty establishing the ESM on 2 February 2012. The ESM was inaugurated on 8 October 2012.
http://www.esm.europa.eu/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note the dates.
That's what a sovereign currency central bank does.
Like the BoE or the Fed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:18 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.
I still can't work out why the European Central Bank haven't bought Greek debt using the QE programme that was supposed be happening like the BoE did here.

Is it maybe because other countries might say "hey, what about ours?"
Teutonic moralism? Not just Germany, but the new Eastern members, I presume, are pretty grim.

The rest of the PIGS probably wouldn't expect QE on their debt too, but they'd certainly get some stick from their electorates.

The Irish Government seem to be popping up talking very hardline stuff v Greece. Same thing their. Why didn't you get some write offs?

The very questions I've been asking.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:23 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.
I don't pretend to understand all of this, but someone - other than the Greek people - need holding to account over it.
The Accumulation of Greek Debt

http://sevenpillarsinstitute.org/case-studies/1492-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"We thus find that while the Greek government may have acted unethically in allowing a great debt to amass, Goldman Sachs acted entirely ethically in designing cross-currency swaps tailored to their client’s requirements. While it may be popular to condemn the bank for allowing Greece to keep $1 billion of debt off their books, the swaps were completely legal at the time, and followed European Union procedures.

To argue that Goldman acted unethically would be equivalent to arguing that a private tax accountant acts unethically when he or she seeks legal means to decrease his or her client’s tax burden. It may be contended that the Greek government acted recklessly or without great foresight; but intelligence cannot be a stipulation of morality.

As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

Right.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:25 pm

Moral Issues in Finance
SPI is the only forum that synthesizes world-class expertise in global finance and moral philosophy. It is moral philosophy that underpins the work of the Institute. The goal of SPI is to find the moral issues in finance, whether they are glaringly obvious, insidiously hidden, or implicitly assumed. Further, the goal is to analyze these issues within their financial contexts and consequently, take positions on the issues. The analysis is guided and informed by the rigorous methods and canons of moral philosophy.

http://sevenpillarsinstitute.org/mission/goals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's late & I'm not too familiar with this outfit - Seven Pillars Institute.
I'll leave it for now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:28 pm

Germany are the main creditor and their government and Parliament don't want to give Greece concessions. France apparently were prepared too- they're the second biggest creditor.

Some of the Eastern EU members probably think Greece are richer than them and aren't too fussed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:29 pm

"As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

See cause, private entities serving clients means you're not reckless.
Reckless is what say, radical leftist governments may be.
Unnerstan'?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:30 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: I still can't work out why the European Central Bank haven't bought Greek debt using the QE programme that was supposed be happening like the BoE did here.

Is it maybe because other countries might say "hey, what about ours?"
Teutonic moralism? Not just Germany, but the new Eastern members, I presume, are pretty grim.

The rest of the PIGS probably wouldn't expect QE on their debt too, but they'd certainly get some stick from their electorates.

The Irish Government seem to be popping up talking very hardline stuff v Greece. Same thing their. Why didn't you get some write offs?
The very questions I've been asking.

There are other variations like the level of interest being paid on their loans. Greece seems to be paying less than Ireland and Portugal did.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Germany are the main creditor and their government and Parliament don't want to give Greece concessions. France apparently were prepared too- they're the second biggest creditor.

Some of the Eastern EU members probably think Greece are richer than them and aren't too fussed.

It was private bankers debt until a lot of it was leveraged onto EU governments, made into public debt, paid for by taxpayers.
Happened in the US the same way.
It's the only way to keep us taxpayers bitching at each other instead of knowing we're getting hosed by financiers & calling them out on it.
Goldman Sachs.
Blame lazy non-job retired workers without doctors or transportation.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:35 pm

citizenJA wrote:"As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

See cause, private entities serving clients means you're not reckless.
Reckless is what say, radical leftist governments may be.
Unnerstan'?

It was in 2000, I think, so there was the best part of a decade of recklessness from the Greek establishment parties afterwards. Syriza haven't been reckless at all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:"As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

See cause, private entities serving clients means you're not reckless.
Reckless is what say, radical leftist governments may be.
Unnerstan'?
It was in 2000, I think, so there was the best part of a decade of recklessness from the Greek establishment parties afterwards. Syriza haven't been reckless at all.

Are you some kind of communist?
You vegetarian too, huh?

I'm being sarcastic, please know I'm a vegetarian communist & love it.
I was making fun of the 7 Pillars moralising tone.
Their goal is to provide cover for rentiers who do nothing but suck the life force out of the planet.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:40 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Teutonic moralism? Not just Germany, but the new Eastern members, I presume, are pretty grim.

The rest of the PIGS probably wouldn't expect QE on their debt too, but they'd certainly get some stick from their electorates.

The Irish Government seem to be popping up talking very hardline stuff v Greece. Same thing their. Why didn't you get some write offs?
The very questions I've been asking.
There are other variations like the level of interest being paid on their loans. Greece seems to be paying less than Ireland and Portugal did.

Interest on what?
What'd they buy?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:44 pm

citizenJA wrote: Interest on what?
What'd they buy?

The bailout loans, and the maturity is different in each case.

Greece was in so much trouble, it's average loan maturity is double Germany's debt.

Poor old Italy, I think, are paying more interest than anyone because of the debts they had before the crisis.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:45 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's remotely accurate, the debt repayments to the IMF this year look stupidly high.

http://2ihmoy1d3v7630ar9h2rsglp.wpengin ... yments.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting on for 10bn Euros to be repaid in 2015.
I still can't work out why the European Central Bank haven't bought Greek debt using the QE programme that was supposed be happening like the BoE did here.

Is it maybe because other countries might say "hey, what about ours?"

I think that's happened.
That purchased debt is now the responsibility of regular people to pay.
Deleveraging - banks love that.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:46 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:"As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

See cause, private entities serving clients means you're not reckless.
Reckless is what say, radical leftist governments may be.
Unnerstan'?
It was in 2000, I think, so there was the best part of a decade of recklessness from the Greek establishment parties afterwards. Syriza haven't been reckless at all.

Greek debt being > 100% of GDP goes back to before 1995 according to a table I picked up from the OECD a few years back.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote: Interest on what?
What'd they buy?
The bailout loans, and the maturity is different in each case.

Greece was in so much trouble, it's average loan maturity is double Germany's debt.

Poor old Italy, I think, are paying more interest than anyone because of the debts they had before the crisis.

Bought bail out loans?
Damn, that's no fun at all.
Unwholesome profligacy of the most horrendous kind.
Let capitalistic feudal economic systems go to the wall.

I'm tired & joking a bit.
Thank you for reading what I post.
I love you people.
goodnight
cJA

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:56 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:"As for Goldman Sachs, it did not act recklessly, but as a private entity serving a client."

See cause, private entities serving clients means you're not reckless.
Reckless is what say, radical leftist governments may be.
Unnerstan'?
It was in 2000, I think, so there was the best part of a decade of recklessness from the Greek establishment parties afterwards. Syriza haven't been reckless at all.
Greek debt being > 100% of GDP goes back to before 1995 according to a table I picked up from the OECD a few years back.

This is my go-to site. Looks like you're right.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/ ... ebt-to-gdp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not much done to bring it down before the crisis in the Euro period.

Spain was bringing it down massively in that period.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:56 pm

Night, Citizen!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:59 pm

cf Belgium, historically very indebted, doing something about it before it joined the Euro and until the crash.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:59 pm

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium ... ebt-to-gdp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:18 am

On the Greece thing a few points.

1. The EZ Group, in particular the Dutch tosser and his Finnish counterpart will go down in history as political pygmies who could have averted disaster but simply didn't want to.

2. The Greek debt was run up buying German goods (funding their boom) and supported by banks lending at very high interest rates. These primarily French and German banks made healthy profits on loans they knew would never be repaid.

3. When the crisis struck Merkel could have taken decisive action to stabilise things at a fraction of the current cost. Greek debt would have been sustainable and the Greek economy could have been stabilised.

4. However to do 3. She would have had to underwrite a haircut of the same French and German banks that had been profiteering. She chose not to do so in order to allow German and French banks to offload the debt onto the public purse.

5. When the bailout came this mishandling by Merkel meant that the debt was unsustainable. The massive austerity and trashing of the Greek economy has all been for show.

6. Portugal, Italy and Spain have equally impossible levels of debt.

7. While EZ can bail out Greece, they cannot possibly bail out Italy or Spain.

8. The EZ knows if they offer Greece a sensible deal Italy and Spain will demand one. Therefore the Geek negotiations have really been about making them suffer to prevent the people in Italy and Spain from demanding debt and austerity relief. They know Greece is doomed, but they don't care, they cannot afford to embolden Italy or Spain.

9. They stupidly think they can contain the fallout from Grexit. They are shortly to be shown to be wrong.

10. This will be studied in future history lessons as a failure of politics as epic as that which led to the fall of Weimar, the Great Recession and possibly WW 1.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:26 am

Wow - Just looked at the Scotsman before turning in. Labour poking a hornet's nest here:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3814855

Try googling 'labour cybernat dossier' if you have a strong stomach.

Post by **refitman** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 1:11 am

Eric_WLothian wrote:Wow - Just looked at the Scotsman before turning in. Labour poking a hornet's nest here:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3814855

Try googling 'labour cybernat dossier' if you have a strong stomach.

Reading 'Wings...', it seems some people don't quite understand what the people named are accused of doing.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 8:07 am

Bore Da,

As if we want more proof that Frank Field is in the wrong party.....he is now alleged (by the Daily Fascist. I wont link) to have made £250 betting on a tory majority at the general election.

He is the Labour equivalent to Danny Alexander.The man should cross the floor.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 9:01 am

Eric_WLothian wrote:Wow - Just looked at the Scotsman before turning in. Labour poking a hornet's nest here:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3814855

Try googling 'labour cybernat dossier' if you have a strong stomach.

I've just watched that Andrew Neil interview with Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh the SNP MP that someone BTL linked to. She gave him no answers at all as to why so many SNP MPs at both Westminster and Holyrood - including Sturgeon herself - were following some of the cybernat abusers ... horrible to see her twisting around rather than answer. He pointed out to her that her saying Labour's Ian Smart had done something wrong (he called the SNP fascist scum in a tweet) doesn't make SNP followers' abuse of others right.

It doesn't get us anywhere really in trying to calm down the vile insults that have, unfortunately, come to somewhat characterise the debate over Scottish nationalism and independence ... but it has reinforced my new found realisation that Andrew Neil is actually a decent interviewer - showing pretty equal robustness in his questioning of different party reps. I wish there were more who were as thorough in their pre interview research as he is. That seems to be one of the things that makes him a better inquisitor (not relying on the Daily Mail a la Humphrys).

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 9:08 am

Read and weep. Hop the housing associations / charitable orgs will take the government to a judicial review over the extension of the right to buy policy. I'm assuming councils won't be able to as their housing stock was built with public money.

Tory right-to-buy plan threatens mass selloff of council homes
Speculators circle as London councils could be forced to sell every new house they build, warns housing expert
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... s-sell-off" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Local authorities in inner London now believe they will have to sell every new council home they build, as soon as they are ready, to finance the general election give-away. It could, they say, be the death knell of the council home.

Funding for discounts for housing association tenants wanting to buy their homes is due to come through forcing local authorities to sell their most expensive properties.

The expected bounty from the sale of such high value homes is also supposed to finance the building of replacement properties to meet a desperate need for affordable accommodation.

“But the problem is that they haven’t thought it through,” says Murray. “We had a carefully crafted plan. These flats are designed for those aged over 55, and the idea is that those who want to downsize from family council properties can do so. It is on the edge of the estate, so people don’t need to move away from where they have lived. The bedroom tax doesn’t apply after you retire, but people moving in at 55 would also have got a few years of avoiding that if they moved in here out of their larger homes.

“But it looks like we will have to sell the flats when they are completed in September. Each of them would sell on the open market at £485,000. And because they are new they are within the third most expensive properties that we have. In fact, all new council homes in inner London will have to be sold off. And what incentive will we have to build again?”...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 9:19 am

Jane Merrick ‏@janemerrick23 1h1 hour ago
More blue-on-blue over David Cameron's flagship childcare pledge http://ind.pn/1LO2CY4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The report is the second time the Childcare Bill has come under “blue-on-blue” friendly fire in the space of a fortnight, after The Independent on Sunday last week revealed warnings by Conservative peers that the legislation contained draconian measures to jail parents and nursery staff for failing to provide full details of whether both mother and father were working – one of the qualifying conditions for the 30-hour entitlement. It is rare for government legislation to be picked apart and criticised from all sides before it has even got to committee stage, when legislation is discussed line by line.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 10:35 am

Alan Johnson apparently said this morning that Labour "shouldn't be afraid" of sharing joint platforms with the Tories and even Hamface in the coming EU referendum.

I like AJ, but has he been in a coma for the last 18 months??

As was said by Mrs T herself - no, *no*, NO!!

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 11:14 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:Wow - Just looked at the Scotsman before turning in. Labour poking a hornet's nest here:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3814855

Try googling 'labour cybernat dossier' if you have a strong stomach.
I've just watched that Andrew Neil interview with Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh the SNP MP that someone BTL linked to. She gave him no answers at all as to why so many SNP MPs at both Westminster and Holyrood - including Sturgeon herself - were following some of the cybernat abusers ... horrible to see her twisting around rather than answer. He pointed out to her that her saying Labour's Ian Smart had done something wrong (he called the SNP fascist scum in a tweet) doesn't make SNP followers' abuse of others right.

It doesn't get us anywhere really in trying to calm down the vile insults that have, unfortunately, come to somewhat characterise the debate over Scottish nationalism and independence ... but it has reinforced my new found realisation that Andrew Neil is actually a decent interviewer - showing pretty equal robustness in his questioning of different party reps. I wish there were more who were as thorough in their pre interview research as he is. That seems to be one of the things that makes him a better inquisitor (not relying on the Daily Mail a la Humphrys).

Is Tasmina still in the SNP? She's still got the LibDems, Greens and UKIP to try

I agree that Andrew Neil is one of the better interviewers - not as easy to fob off as most of them.
What I find interesting, looking btl in the Scotsman, is that those who come nearest to emulating the cybernat abuse seem to be right-wing Tory or UKIP supporters who accuse the SNP of being extreme left-wingers. There aren't many left-wing participants btl.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 11:44 am

Good morfternoon.

From William Keegan, in the Guardian -

Labour must not suffer its own great depression

As George Osborne makes his welfare cuts, the response from the party does not necessitate a great lurch to the right

Great article as is usually the case with this author.

Now - whoever could he mean here?

We now find Labour suffering its own great depression, amid endless soul-searching and, on the part of at least one candidate for the leadership, a series of statements which make one wonder why they don’t just own up and join the Conservatives.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... borne-cuts

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Alan Johnson apparently said this morning that Labour "shouldn't be afraid" of sharing joint platforms with the Tories and even Hamface in the coming EU referendum.

I like AJ, but has he been in a coma for the last 18 months??

As was said by Mrs T herself - no, *no*, NO!!

Sharing a platform with them would be disastrous. It's not a case of being "afraid". It's a case of common sense. Labour should present its case, and its message, in its own way and with its own nuances.

Edited to add

The only people who are likely to gain from a joint platform are the Conservatives - or even the "Outers".

Can't he see that?