Tuesday 8th September 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:16 pm

MPs who call another MP a liar will be asked by the Speaker to apologise and can be suspended.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:20 pm

ephemerid wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Outcomes and satisfaction ratings are the easiest criteria to judge by.

Labour has made it too easy for the Tories. Going on and on about how the Tories were about to destroy the NHS has given them the space to actually destroy large other areas of the public sector.

No doubt the NHS has cost increases greater than the increases in funding, but compared to what has happened to local government and social security, it has hardly been touched.

Outcomes - since 2010, these are appalling in many areas.
Waiting lists for outpatient appointments are longer; in psychiatric care and substance misuse, budgets have been slashed by up to 70% in parts of England; people are waiting as long as 2 years for a psychiatric consultant appointment; bed closures have left some children only able to get a bed many miles from home;drug/alcohol treatment is nearly all outsourced in NHS England and the NTA has been abolished, swallowed up by Public Health England which is too stretched to fund services.
Waiting lists for minor elective procedures are much longer, with people in England expected to be much more disabled by their condition before they get help; minor procedures which prevent major problems are not being done, so patients are much more complex to treat when they eventually get seen; various scandals have beset outsourced providers of eye, joint, and gynae surgery with NHS trusts taking work back in-house with knock-on effects on the waiting lists.

Satisfaction - this has fallen significantly since 2010.
Partly due to all the above. Partly due to problems associated with GPs, eg. inability to book appointments when needed with many practices having 2-week waits; too few GPs, practice and community nurses, community physio's, leaving elderly and disabled people without the primary care they need to stay out of hospital. Closures of well man/woman clinics, chronic disease management clinics, and poor funding for specialist nurses (eg.Diabetes care)
Early discharge from hospital after surgery (elective or otherwise) masks SSI rates - hospitals report a 5% to 10% SSI rate in England (already an increase since 2010), but as the infections don't show until some days after release, it's no surprise that GPs report a rate of 20% to 28% which is horrifying.
Long waits for advice from the ridiculous 111 service, not staffed by qualified nurses, and poor advice (if any) given, has led to more people using A&E inappropriately than ever. All A&E patients are waiting much longer for both triage and treatment.

Cuts to local authorities' budgets haven't helped - but most LAs do their best to fulfil what are statutory obligations, cutting elsewhere.
The NHS may have had some increase in funding, but that has not kept pace with inflation nor has it allowed for the billions saved through various means which has been clawed back by Osborne and not used for clinical purposes.

NB. There have been NO cuts to the social security budget.
Individual claimants have had their benefits cut, obviously; they have also been subject to new charges, fines, and sanctions.
But there has been no cut to the budget - in fact, it has been allowed to increase exponentially.
On paper, there has been "£20-billion's-worth" of "cuts", which have yielded a paper "saving" of £2BN - taken from claimants.
But the spend on HB is up by £5BN, tax credits by £18BN, and billions more have been squandered on vanity projects.

The NHS is a wonderful thing, but it is fighting for its' life. Outcomes and satisfaction are both way poorer than in 2010.

I dunno Hugo... Have you had to use a hospital or needed slightly more than a regular doctors appointment recently?

When Mr Ohso went in for his second op two weeks ago, he was still in the recovery room at 9:pm. When the surgeon finally go to talk to him, he said he'd done 29 ops that day. He then had to get on the phone and demand a room for Mr Ohso, because there were no beds left. There was one room left in the private section, so Mr Ohso got that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:21 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Outcomes and satisfaction ratings are the easiest criteria to judge by.

Labour has made it too easy for the Tories. Going on and on about how the Tories were about to destroy the NHS has given them the space to actually destroy large other areas of the public sector.

No doubt the NHS has cost increases greater than the increases in funding, but compared to what has happened to local government and social security, it has hardly been touched.
Talk to some fucking staff and say that.
talk to some people dependent on benefits to live

talk to some people dependent on local authority care

No use dividing.
It's all bad, what the Tories have done.
The Tory government have undermined the NHS, staff, people, local authorities and sadistically cut social security entitlements for no other reason than perverse ideology.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Outcomes and satisfaction ratings are the easiest criteria to judge by.

Labour has made it too easy for the Tories. Going on and on about how the Tories were about to destroy the NHS has given them the space to actually destroy large other areas of the public sector.

No doubt the NHS has cost increases greater than the increases in funding, but compared to what has happened to local government and social security, it has hardly been touched.
Talk to some fucking staff and say that.
There's some pretty rum stuff going on in the NHS at the moment. It's not about funding, it's about accountability, who is ultimately responsible for ensuring our universal healthcare system is adequately provided? When my brother in law was knocked unconscious, the ambulanceman that attended was apparently more concerned with filling in forms than taking him to A&E. We still don't really understand what happened as he was then dropped off at a minor injuries unit where his cuts were bandaged but seemingly no treatment or care in relation to his being unconscious for some minutes, coming round and then collapsing. He came to in the ambulance, so surely he should have been treated as a potential major head injury? He is now extremely unwell and awaiting a CT scan for a possible blood clot (7.30pm in the evening, so will have to go by taxi if no one can give him a lift, why such a weird time?). None of us can fathom the ambulance's actions. When I was knocked unconscious when hit by a car in 1984, I was x-rayed and kept in over night. He came off his bike at speed and knocked himself out. I know of someone who died following a similar accident, so we're all very disappointed by how poorly he was looked after. He was sent home alone with an unravelling bandage.

SpinningHugo may not have used the NHS recently. My confidence in it has been seriously undermined since Cameron became PM. I fear one day, when I need it, it will let me down and I've never felt that before, not even under Thatcher.
Which is why the NHS is a priority for me and why I voted for Andy Burnham.

If we didn't meet here to discuss this on a regular basis, we'd be suffering the same but might lack the context, our stories would be individual instead of collective, and that's what all this is about - collective damage a Tory government have systematically inflicted while playing divide and conquer games with their media.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:27 pm

yahyah wrote:MPs who call another MP a liar will be asked by the Speaker to apologise and can be suspended.

They have to apologise?
Or get removed from their place where they represent the country?
Even when they're right?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:30 pm

gilsey wrote:I was just flicking through AS blog on Osborne at the HoL economic affairs committee, which AS described as a snoozathon, but this caught my eye.

Osborne says it is unfair to give people in council homes the right to buy, but not people in housing association homes. That is a “public sector anomaly”, he says. He is correcting it.
HAs aren't in the public sector currently, as we know, although they might soon be if he keeps interfering with them.

And then this terribly useful statement:

Q: Are you worried about the impact that interest rate rises will have on people?

Osborne says the governor of the Bank of England has said that, when rates rise, their peak will be lower than in previous interest rate cycles.
How does he get away with this crap?

If a member of the opposition outs Chancellor Jeff as a mendacious liar and provides the documentation why, that crusading MP speaking the truth gets turned out of Parliament until they apologise to the liar.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:33 pm

As a fan of 'what if' novels, I wonder how many on FTN would have voted Labour in 1945 with posters like this ?

Full on, unambiguous.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:36 pm

I and my wider family have had many experiences, good and bad, of the NHS over decades. You shouldn't conclude anything from this, anymore than you should conclude anything from the performance of an entire hospital over a year.

1. Health outcome statistics are many. Some are here

http://www.hscic.gov.uk/internationalstats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They haven't got worse.

2. The only NHS satisfaction survey I know of is by the King's Fund

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/bsa-survey-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it hasn't got worse either.

I have no doubt at all that the NHS is under serious pressure. My only claim is that other areas of the public sector have suffered even worse (as a glance at public sector employment, or the NHS's share of public expenditure would indicate).

3. My criticism of Labour is that by focusing on one thing (the NHS) it has made it easier for the Tories to degrade teh rest of the public sector. I know why they do it (the NHS is very popular, and almost all of us benefit from it).

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:36 pm

Duplicated post

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:36 pm

@Tubby Isaacs

Thanks, Tubby, seems I needed reminding, Firefox crashed earlier. I seem to recall earlier incarnations offered to restore tabs in such events, not this time however.

Regarding HS2 I wouldn't have any qualms if we lived in continental sized lands but it seems ridiculously costly for benefits gained given the relatively short distances between stopping points. Then we need to ask who is it that gains precisely? A few businessmen perhaps in a hurry to make a few more pounds. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but if that were so then make more use of electronic communication. Moving a few bodies around the place should perhaps be designed for everybody at a price that can be afforded and perhaps a more comfortable pace... So says the guy who drives at 100mph, traffic and conditions permitting. Just a little online bravado or exaggeration you understand should anybody come a-calling. Catch me if you can.

The last time I was done for speeding was for 34mph in a 30 limit. Peeved I may have been but then just accepted my just desserts as I had just got back from either Nottingham or Leicester. Btw I'm not an aggressive driver with few sudden changes of pace. I think I mentioned driving on my gears, in other words, anticipation and forgetting ice and snow, am always in a gear that enables quick response if needed; in some situations acceleration can be more effective than braking. Automatics are different but I'm guessing with the advent of energy recovery braking systems I shall have to change the habits of a lifetime. Still unlike some I reckon old dogs can learn new tricks... apart from shutting up that is.

Did I ever mention... rest your head on the headrest. What's in a couple of inches anyway? The car goes in exactly the same place and you'd be surprised at your increased tolerance levels. I'm full of 'em I am, or is that something else I have in mind? Now let's see what Boris has been up to.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:37 pm

@Willow: I do hope your brother-in-law will be ok and am pretty shocked to hear he wasn't taken straight to A&E, given both a head injury and a period of unconsciousness. As to why a 7.30pm CT scan, who knows but it might be the department trying to be more 'convenient' for people who might be working during the day, or just that they run until late for emergencies, anyway, so might as well be open for appointments - maximising assets?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:39 pm

On tonight's Channel 4 News.
Are there any honest Tories ?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:42 pm

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:MPs who call another MP a liar will be asked by the Speaker to apologise and can be suspended.
They have to apologise?
Or get removed from their place where they represent the country?
Even when they're right?

Suspension is not usually for more than for just the remainder of that day (they're asked to 'leave the chamber'.) I don't think they necessarily have to apologise before they're allowed back.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:44 pm

ephemerid wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Outcomes and satisfaction ratings are the easiest criteria to judge by.

Labour has made it too easy for the Tories. Going on and on about how the Tories were about to destroy the NHS has given them the space to actually destroy large other areas of the public sector.

No doubt the NHS has cost increases greater than the increases in funding, but compared to what has happened to local government and social security, it has hardly been touched.

Outcomes - since 2010, these are appalling in many areas.
Waiting lists for outpatient appointments are longer; in psychiatric care and substance misuse, budgets have been slashed by up to 70% in parts of England; people are waiting as long as 2 years for a psychiatric consultant appointment; bed closures have left some children only able to get a bed many miles from home;drug/alcohol treatment is nearly all outsourced in NHS England and the NTA has been abolished, swallowed up by Public Health England which is too stretched to fund services.
Waiting lists for minor elective procedures are much longer, with people in England expected to be much more disabled by their condition before they get help; minor procedures which prevent major problems are not being done, so patients are much more complex to treat when they eventually get seen; various scandals have beset outsourced providers of eye, joint, and gynae surgery with NHS trusts taking work back in-house with knock-on effects on the waiting lists.

Satisfaction - this has fallen significantly since 2010.
Partly due to all the above. Partly due to problems associated with GPs, eg. inability to book appointments when needed with many practices having 2-week waits; too few GPs, practice and community nurses, community physio's, leaving elderly and disabled people without the primary care they need to stay out of hospital. Closures of well man/woman clinics, chronic disease management clinics, and poor funding for specialist nurses (eg.Diabetes care)
Early discharge from hospital after surgery (elective or otherwise) masks SSI rates - hospitals report a 5% to 10% SSI rate in England (already an increase since 2010), but as the infections don't show until some days after release, it's no surprise that GPs report a rate of 20% to 28% which is horrifying.
Long waits for advice from the ridiculous 111 service, not staffed by qualified nurses, and poor advice (if any) given, has led to more people using A&E inappropriately than ever. All A&E patients are waiting much longer for both triage and treatment.

Cuts to local authorities' budgets haven't helped - but most LAs do their best to fulfil what are statutory obligations, cutting elsewhere.
The NHS may have had some increase in funding, but that has not kept pace with inflation nor has it allowed for the billions saved through various means which has been clawed back by Osborne and not used for clinical purposes.

NB. There have been NO cuts to the social security budget.
Individual claimants have had their benefits cut, obviously; they have also been subject to new charges, fines, and sanctions.
But there has been no cut to the budget - in fact, it has been allowed to increase exponentially.
On paper, there has been "£20-billion's-worth" of "cuts", which have yielded a paper "saving" of £2BN - taken from claimants.
But the spend on HB is up by £5BN, tax credits by £18BN, and billions more have been squandered on vanity projects.

The NHS is a wonderful thing, but it is fighting for its' life. Outcomes and satisfaction are both way poorer than in 2010.

Yes.
Thank you, Ephemerid.
Tories can say without lying they continue to spend all kinds of money.
On Tory projects, on Tory issues, on Tory party best interests, not on what is in the best interests of the whole UK and all people.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:48 pm

My husband has brought me the sweetest apple I've ever tasted - it's wonderful.
First of the season.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 6:59 pm

citizenJA wrote:... Someone suggested a member of the opposition calling out a liar sitting on the government front bench in the House of Commons by identifying that liar and what the liar is lying about. Have documentation and call out the liar. What would happen? What are the risks? Is there a better suggestion?

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, Chris Bryant basically called out either Jeremy Hunt (it's lost its venom now I don't use the forename as rhyming slang) or IDS for lying at the dispatch box and was duly reprimanded for unparliamentary language, Bercow told him to retract if I remember correctly. Perhaps he treats ladies differently since Glenda was allowed her diatribe at IDS unhindered.

But yes I have to agree with your proposition, JA, as long as terms like liar are avoided. I cannot see anything wrong with using parliamentary privilege supported by documentary evidence to highlight the case. As I suggested yesterday putting questions to ministers is a complete waste of time, they merely respond with more lies or partisan obfuscation, propaganda in any other language with no further discussion of the pertinent points. Government by a bunch liars is not what I deem democracy.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:03 pm

@gilsey

Astonishing isn't it. Take this bit for example paying particular attention to his final retort. As I've only just said in response to cJA, this is supposed to be government. Truly staggering!

Lord Forsyth goes again.

Q: You say you will compensate councils from the overseas aid fund for the cost of housing Syrian refugees. Why will that aid be limited to 12 months?

Osborne says that is all that is allowed under the rules about what counts as aid spending.

Q: Aren’t these rules flawed?

Osborne says Britain signed up to spending 0.7% of national income on aid. Over recent weeks the case for that has become stronger.

Q: But are the rules sensible?

Osborne says, if there were no rules, all countries would claim to be spending 0.7% of their income on aid.

Edit: inserted sadly lacking 'attention'

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:03 pm

So the legend in his own mind Simon Danczuk has raised his ugly head again.

Andrew Sparrow tells us of his appearance today on The Daily Politics during which he claimed Miliband was "one of the worst labour leaders ever" and he "had so much to apologise for"

Frankly the easy answer to that is (excepting his work on child abuse) Pot,Kettle,Black.

It seems to me this guy is a complete waste of space whose capacity for self aggrandisement is only exceeded by his lack of self awareness.

In my view it is almost worth Jeremy Corbyn winning if that is what it takes to remove the sort of shallow, only interested in self promotion, MPs from the Labour Party.

And before any of the anti Corbyn populous jumps down my throat I am only half joking!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:22 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I and my wider family have had many experiences, good and bad, of the NHS over decades. You shouldn't conclude anything from this, anymore than you should conclude anything from the performance of an entire hospital over a year.

1. Health outcome statistics are many. Some are here

http://www.hscic.gov.uk/internationalstats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They haven't got worse.

2. The only NHS satisfaction survey I know of is by the King's Fund

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/bsa-survey-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it hasn't got worse either.

I have no doubt at all that the NHS is under serious pressure. My only claim is that other areas of the public sector have suffered even worse (as a glance at public sector employment, or the NHS's share of public expenditure would indicate).

3. My criticism of Labour is that by focusing on one thing (the NHS) it has made it easier for the Tories to degrade teh rest of the public sector. I know why they do it (the NHS is very popular, and almost all of us benefit from it).

I'll write one thing more then leave it alone for the evening.
It's inappropriate to argue other areas of public service are suffering worse than another or that the NHS is functioning, it's not as bad...this is distraction, it's not useful to us at this time, in my opinion.

FlyTheNest is a place where friends interested in politics come to communicate. A lot of people in the UK don't follow political news. We probably know more than people about Tory policies enacted over the last five years. Those policies include some of the biggest changes to the NHS since its date of birth, 1948. You know this, SpinningHugo. You know other Tory legislation that has taken hammers to the UK's public services - we all do. I follow political news because I wasn't born with a trust fund, I don't have a title and I don't have a pension. I'm not unique in this sense. Involvement in politics is essential because my life depends upon a strong, fair social democracy.

Ed Miliband said he needed the help of those of us without the resources Tories possess. He said, "Tories will be fine if I'm elected Labour PM; the people without a lot of resources need a responsible government providing public services." This is accurate. Ed Miliband is a wise man and the Labour party has other wise men and women understanding private enterprise doesn't work altruistically. The Tory party don't work to benefit all the people and country. I wish the Tory party currently in government acted in the best interests of us all. I wouldn't be afraid and other people would still be alive. I require the community of cooperative social democrats, just like most people (everyone benefits from a stable social democracy but that's an aside) require collective resource sharing.

There's no one part more important than another, they all work together - social security provision, local government, economic, health, communications, energy, security, housing and environmental infrastructure in the UK all work together. Those systems, our public services are being further dismantled, all of them, some faster than others.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:37 pm

ScarletGas wrote:So the legend in his own mind Simon Danczuk has raised his ugly head again.

Andrew Sparrow tells us of his appearance today on The Daily Politics during which he claimed Miliband was "one of the worst labour leaders ever" and he "had so much to apologise for"

Frankly the easy answer to that is (excepting his work on child abuse) Pot,Kettle,Black.

It seems to me this guy is a complete waste of space whose capacity for self aggrandisement is only exceeded by his lack of self awareness.

In my view it is almost worth Jeremy Corbyn winning if that is what it takes to remove the sort of shallow, only interested in self promotion, MPs from the Labour Party.

And before any of the anti Corbyn populous jumps down my throat I am only half joking!

His sort threaten to leave, but just watch how many will actually give up a cushy well paid job. He's a drama Queen - or is that still politically correct? Has to have his name in the papers...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:41 pm

Oops...should have updated the page.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:44 pm

utopiandreams wrote:@Tubby Isaacs

Thanks, Tubby, seems I needed reminding, Firefox crashed earlier. I seem to recall earlier incarnations offered to restore tabs in such events, not this time however.

Regarding HS2 I wouldn't have any qualms if we lived in continental sized lands but it seems ridiculously costly for benefits gained given the relatively short distances between stopping points. Then we need to ask who is it that gains precisely? A few businessmen perhaps in a hurry to make a few more pounds. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but if that were so then make more use of electronic communication.

Electronic communication's been around for a while. Passenger numbers are still rising rapidly- the population is too.

Best way to think about HS2 is in terms of capacity, not speed. The capacity is (probably) needed, very hard to provide by updating lines. If you need a new one, you might as well build a high speed one.

It won't be just businessmen on it. Like any train, there'll be cheaper off peak tickets, rail cards passengers.

I think the controversy comes not just from the price, but from it being London benefiting again. Make London raise finance itself (instead of having a cockhead mayor who thinks it's paying too much over to the rest of the country) and it would be less controversial.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:45 pm

On HS2, I have to give credit to Corbyn for supporting it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:50 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:On HS2, I have to give credit to Corbyn for supporting it.

Driverless cars.

It may well be obsolescent by the time it is completed. I'd hold off (and I love rail and want more infrastructure investment).

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:51 pm

ScarletGas wrote:
In my view it is almost worth Jeremy Corbyn winning if that is what it takes to remove the sort of shallow, only interested in self promotion, MPs from the Labour Party.

And before any of the anti Corbyn populous jumps down my throat I am only half joking!

It's a fair point. There's a practical problem with it though.

Corbyn would be leading the PLP as it is now. Tony Benn understood in 1980 that there would be no point in leading the PLP as it was then, so let Foot take it on. Benn's time was to come later, when the "reformation" had worked its way through- ie rightwing MPs would have been put under pressure of deselection and more leftwing candidates came though. Benn could have led that party very effectively.

Corbyn is going to be in Foot's position, with a much smaller left and much less respect from the right than Foot had.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:55 pm

Public finances watchdog warns of "inherent risk" in academies sector

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... ies-sector

There is an “inherent risk” of financial irregularities across the academies sector because of the number and variety of providers, the National Audit Office (NAO) has warned.

In a letter to academy auditors, the NAO – which is responsible for scrutinising all public spending by the Department for Education and the Education Funding Agency (EFA) – warned that the conditions around the burgeoning number of academies are ripe for financial mismanagement.

“On conversion, or opening, an academy is unlikely to have a fully developed control framework to address all of its new responsibilities. New academy accounting officers are potentially unfamiliar with central government oversight and their responsibilities as accounting officers.”

It adds that this could lead to “irregularities”, including:

Approval from the secretary of state not being sought for certain transactions where it is required.
Employment of relations not on an “arm’s-length” basis.
Fraud or misappropriation of funds.
An increasing risk that academies with long-standing deficits may become insolvent.
The NAO says auditors should be aware of investigations into irregularities that are being carried out by the EFA.

Something occurred to me when I was thinking about this...academies are responsible for 100% of their funding.

OK, so are LA schools...but there's a difference in how the money is actually handled.

Our school payroll - like all others - is operated by the LA. Very efficient.

But what this does is take 80% of the payments that schools make out of the responsibility of the school. The school is responsible for appointment of staff but once they're hired, they get paid by the LA. What this means is not that there is less opportunity for fraud but the potential scale is far less than for academies who, presumably do all this themselves or get a bureau to run it for them i.e. not their overseer.

Also, accounts get submitted every month to LA - a sudden hike in one spending area (and it is very detailed) would get spotted very quickly. I'm not sure how often accounts get submitted to the EFA by academies...but there's nearly 5,000 of them now...how many get a thorough check?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:59 pm

rr2 from yesterday wrote:The inverted commas are mine.

Tell that to PorFavor.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:59 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:On HS2, I have to give credit to Corbyn for supporting it.

Driverless cars.

It may well be obsolescent by the time it is completed. I'd hold off (and I love rail and want more infrastructure investment).

No way they'll replace the need for the southern part of HS2, which is being built first.

Driverless cars might be why the Northern sections are being delayed, now you mention it. Would be a nice easy political win for the government if they built these at the same time.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:07 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Corbyn is an electoral liability.
Corbyn is the only candidate that will question austerity.
Corbyn will set the Labour Party back X years.
Corbyn is the best chance of resetting the 'what does the party stand for?' discussion.
Corbyn is...
Corbyn is...
Corbyn will...
Corbyn will...

Can all this stop whoever is announced leader and deputy on the 12th please? Hyperbole and soothsaying,let's aim to draw a line under it and focus on the real enemies.

Agree wholeheartedly.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:12 pm

The company established by the Treasury to hold the taxpayers’ stakes in RBS and Lloyds has been warned to remain “ultra-vigilant” after it was revealed some of the City’s biggest investment banks – including Goldman Sachs and UBS – are charging the government a £1 fee for work that would normally cost tens of millions of pounds.

Representatives of UK Financial Investments told the Treasury select committee it had paid just £15 for help and advice related to the sale of shares in Lloyds Banking Group and RBS which would normally have cost around £38m.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ation-fees" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A financial sector and banking industry responsible for the global financial crisis and no systematic reform in seven years working harmoniously with current Tory government sustaining a billion pound loss selling off public sector property to who knows who

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:27 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Public finances watchdog warns of "inherent risk" in academies sector

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... ies-sector

There is an “inherent risk” of financial irregularities across the academies sector because of the number and variety of providers, the National Audit Office (NAO) has warned.

In a letter to academy auditors, the NAO – which is responsible for scrutinising all public spending by the Department for Education and the Education Funding Agency (EFA) – warned that the conditions around the burgeoning number of academies are ripe for financial mismanagement.

“On conversion, or opening, an academy is unlikely to have a fully developed control framework to address all of its new responsibilities. New academy accounting officers are potentially unfamiliar with central government oversight and their responsibilities as accounting officers.”

It adds that this could lead to “irregularities”, including:

Approval from the secretary of state not being sought for certain transactions where it is required.
Employment of relations not on an “arm’s-length” basis.
Fraud or misappropriation of funds.
An increasing risk that academies with long-standing deficits may become insolvent.
The NAO says auditors should be aware of investigations into irregularities that are being carried out by the EFA.
Something occurred to me when I was thinking about this...academies are responsible for 100% of their funding.

OK, so are LA schools...but there's a difference in how the money is actually handled.

Our school payroll - like all others - is operated by the LA. Very efficient.

But what this does is take 80% of the payments that schools make out of the responsibility of the school. The school is responsible for appointment of staff but once they're hired, they get paid by the LA. What this means is not that there is less opportunity for fraud but the potential scale is far less than for academies who, presumably do all this themselves or get a bureau to run it for them i.e. not their overseer.

Also, accounts get submitted every month to LA - a sudden hike in one spending area (and it is very detailed) would get spotted very quickly. I'm not sure how often accounts get submitted to the EFA by academies...but there's nearly 5,000 of them now...how many get a thorough check?

Even without irregularities, there's surely a danger of purchasing poor value for money services and advice.

My sister used to advise schools on VAT for her LA. It's not straightforward, and an apparent brainwave can trigger a huge VAT liability. School leaders in general can be a bit "I don't need to know this, I'm so busy, I've got kids to inspire!" but in the LA they got her advice.

The thought of some chancer phoning up an academy and tendering flawed advice is not pleasant.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:28 pm

YahYah (who else) wrote:Oops, may have to rethink that last sentence, not sure why I phrased it 'Corbyn's (hopefully) large member'

Apologies in advance to Tiny Clanger.

Apology accepted (now that I have recovered).

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:55 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:@Willow: I do hope your brother-in-law will be ok and am pretty shocked to hear he wasn't taken straight to A&E, given both a head injury and a period of unconsciousness. As to why a 7.30pm CT scan, who knows but it might be the department trying to be more 'convenient' for people who might be working during the day, or just that they run until late for emergencies, anyway, so might as well be open for appointments - maximising assets?

Thanks LadyCentauria. He was with a friend, so we got some of the story of what happened but it's still a bit of a muddle. It's perfectly possible that his accident was dealt with correctly and we've just been given a garbled, misleading version of events, but it's a good example of the doubt the Tory changes to the NHS has thrown over everything. Is it possible private ambulances are attending accidents now? Is it possible such fundamental changes could happen without the public being informed? The form filling seemed strange for a service free at the point of use. Is that normal when an ambulance attends an accident? We're just all a bit puzzled. Hopefully now he's had a referral from his GP and he's in the system his treatment will be better. Our local hospital is pretty good (when you eventually manage to get there!)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:02 pm

Liz Kendall Admits She And Other 'Moderates' Misread Mood Of Post-Miliband Labour Party

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09 ... 00940.html

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:17 pm

Willow904 wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:@Willow: I do hope your brother-in-law will be ok and am pretty shocked to hear he wasn't taken straight to A&E, given both a head injury and a period of unconsciousness. As to why a 7.30pm CT scan, who knows but it might be the department trying to be more 'convenient' for people who might be working during the day, or just that they run until late for emergencies, anyway, so might as well be open for appointments - maximising assets?
Thanks LadyCentauria. He was with a friend, so we got some of the story of what happened but it's still a bit of a muddle. It's perfectly possible that his accident was dealt with correctly and we've just been given a garbled, misleading version of events, but it's a good example of the doubt the Tory changes to the NHS has thrown over everything. Is it possible private ambulances are attending accidents now? Is it possible such fundamental changes could happen without the public being informed? The form filling seemed strange for a service free at the point of use. Is that normal when an ambulance attends an accident? We're just all a bit puzzled. Hopefully now he's had a referral from his GP and he's in the system his treatment will be better. Our local hospital is pretty good (when you eventually manage to get there!)

Yes, and have been for some time
North West Private Ambulance Service
(complete with NHS logo on said ambulance in photo)
http://nwpals.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jigsaw Medical Services Ltd can provide emergency A&E, HDU or intensive care Ambulances, (again looking just like "our" ambulances, only in private disguise)
http://www.jigsawmedical.com/emergency- ... rvice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Google "ambulance service private" - loads come up

Fingers crossed your brother-in-law is OK.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:25 pm

Tomorrow is free FT access day! (Bet that's made you all happy)

"In a complex world, the FT helps cut through the noise to bring you clarity on the things that matter to you the most, every day of the week.

Tomorrow (9th September), staying ahead of the game is even easier, with free FT.com content all day. So linger over the latest insightful articles, immerse yourself in thought-provoking comment and enjoy.

See what FT.com could do for you – and why over half a million of your peers subscribe. "

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:33 pm

Tory MP defends claim he couldn't get a haircut because refugee barber was on holiday http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:38 pm

Hungarian nationalist TV camera operator filmed kicking refugee children
20-second video of N1TV’s Petra László tripping over man carrying child in his arms – and kicking young girl and boy – goes viral and horrifies country

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/s ... _b-gdnnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:41 pm

Ian Brownhill ‏@CounselTweets · 10m10 minutes ago
Last time I checked you can raise human rights issue in British Courts. Did so court 2, Royal Courts of Justice today http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 91173.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

The Tory plan to scrap the Human Rights Act confirmed in Parliament

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 91173.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:53 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:@Willow: I do hope your brother-in-law will be ok and am pretty shocked to hear he wasn't taken straight to A&E, given both a head injury and a period of unconsciousness. As to why a 7.30pm CT scan, who knows but it might be the department trying to be more 'convenient' for people who might be working during the day, or just that they run until late for emergencies, anyway, so might as well be open for appointments - maximising assets?
Thanks LadyCentauria. He was with a friend, so we got some of the story of what happened but it's still a bit of a muddle. It's perfectly possible that his accident was dealt with correctly and we've just been given a garbled, misleading version of events, but it's a good example of the doubt the Tory changes to the NHS has thrown over everything. Is it possible private ambulances are attending accidents now? Is it possible such fundamental changes could happen without the public being informed? The form filling seemed strange for a service free at the point of use. Is that normal when an ambulance attends an accident? We're just all a bit puzzled. Hopefully now he's had a referral from his GP and he's in the system his treatment will be better. Our local hospital is pretty good (when you eventually manage to get there!)
Yes, and have been for some time
North West Private Ambulance Service
(complete with NHS logo on said ambulance in photo)
http://nwpals.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jigsaw Medical Services Ltd can provide emergency A&E, HDU or intensive care Ambulances, (again looking just like "our" ambulances, only in private disguise)
http://www.jigsawmedical.com/emergency- ... rvice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Google "ambulance service private" - loads come up

Fingers crossed your brother-in-law is OK.

Thanks very much for the info, AngryAsWell. I'll pass it on to my husband. He was thinking of making a complaint. He'll be even more inclined to if it turns out the NHS is being billed by private ambulances that aren't even following proper procedures. I really do think he should have been taken to A&E and been kept under observation, if only for a few hours. The minor injuries unit he was dropped off at (like a taxi service with no handover, by all accounts) is just for cuts and sprains, really. They don't do ambulance cases. I'm staggered I'd missed the fact private ambulances can attend accidents now. I thought it was just ferrying old people to hospital (and they couldn't even get that right locally). It's all rather worrying.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Thanks LadyCentauria. He was with a friend, so we got some of the story of what happened but it's still a bit of a muddle. It's perfectly possible that his accident was dealt with correctly and we've just been given a garbled, misleading version of events, but it's a good example of the doubt the Tory changes to the NHS has thrown over everything. Is it possible private ambulances are attending accidents now? Is it possible such fundamental changes could happen without the public being informed? The form filling seemed strange for a service free at the point of use. Is that normal when an ambulance attends an accident? We're just all a bit puzzled. Hopefully now he's had a referral from his GP and he's in the system his treatment will be better. Our local hospital is pretty good (when you eventually manage to get there!)
Yes, and have been for some time
North West Private Ambulance Service
(complete with NHS logo on said ambulance in photo)
http://nwpals.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jigsaw Medical Services Ltd can provide emergency A&E, HDU or intensive care Ambulances, (again looking just like "our" ambulances, only in private disguise)
http://www.jigsawmedical.com/emergency- ... rvice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Google "ambulance service private" - loads come up

Fingers crossed your brother-in-law is OK.
Thanks very much for the info, AngryAsWell. I'll pass it on to my husband. He was thinking of making a complaint. He'll be even more inclined to if it turns out the NHS is being billed by private ambulances that aren't even following proper procedures. I really do think he should have been taken to A&E and been kept under observation, if only for a few hours. The minor injuries unit he was dropped off at (like a taxi service with no handover, by all accounts) is just for cuts and sprains, really. They don't do ambulance cases. I'm staggered I'd missed the fact private ambulances can attend accidents now. I thought it was just ferrying old people to hospital (and they couldn't even get that right locally). It's all rather worrying.

To be sure they are operating in his area google Private Ambulance Service/his area and see what comes up. It might be different where he lives. I was only aware of it where I live as one or two cases of bad service/timing have made our local press.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:25 pm

Hospital work experience on sale for £500

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34188028" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MsChin · Post by **MsChin** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:29 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Thanks LadyCentauria. He was with a friend, so we got some of the story of what happened but it's still a bit of a muddle. It's perfectly possible that his accident was dealt with correctly and we've just been given a garbled, misleading version of events, but it's a good example of the doubt the Tory changes to the NHS has thrown over everything. Is it possible private ambulances are attending accidents now? Is it possible such fundamental changes could happen without the public being informed? The form filling seemed strange for a service free at the point of use. Is that normal when an ambulance attends an accident? We're just all a bit puzzled. Hopefully now he's had a referral from his GP and he's in the system his treatment will be better. Our local hospital is pretty good (when you eventually manage to get there!)
Yes, and have been for some time
North West Private Ambulance Service
(complete with NHS logo on said ambulance in photo)
http://nwpals.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jigsaw Medical Services Ltd can provide emergency A&E, HDU or intensive care Ambulances, (again looking just like "our" ambulances, only in private disguise)
http://www.jigsawmedical.com/emergency- ... rvice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Google "ambulance service private" - loads come up

Fingers crossed your brother-in-law is OK.
Thanks very much for the info, AngryAsWell. I'll pass it on to my husband. He was thinking of making a complaint. He'll be even more inclined to if it turns out the NHS is being billed by private ambulances that aren't even following proper procedures. I really do think he should have been taken to A&E and been kept under observation, if only for a few hours. The minor injuries unit he was dropped off at (like a taxi service with no handover, by all accounts) is just for cuts and sprains, really. They don't do ambulance cases. I'm staggered I'd missed the fact private ambulances can attend accidents now. I thought it was just ferrying old people to hospital (and they couldn't even get that right locally). It's all rather worrying.

Another drive by post from me - sorry! - but I have mentioned elsewhere that I'm horrified that we also have volunteer paramedics in South Yorkshire. One lives local to me & has a day job in a teccie shop. You see private ambulances with NHS logo operating all the time, I've even seen them on the M1.

I do hope your brother in law is ok.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:29 pm

Only 10 weeks to save democracy from shameful Tory bid to rig the voting system

The Government has ignored the Electoral Commission's advice and is rushing through changes which could disenfranchise up to 10million people

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/on ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:44 pm

This zero-waste grocery store has no packaging, plastic or big-name brands
http://valhallamovement.com/link/this-z ... __step__=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One for Tiz

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:11 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:On HS2, I have to give credit to Corbyn for supporting it.

Driverless cars.

It may well be obsolescent by the time it is completed. I'd hold off (and I love rail and want more infrastructure investment).

Driverless cars don't really solve transport problems and they certainly aren't an alternative to HS2.

They are also rather further away than the media and industry would have us believe.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:19 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Only 10 weeks to save democracy from shameful Tory bid to rig the voting system

The Government has ignored the Electoral Commission's advice and is rushing through changes which could disenfranchise up to 10million people

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/on ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's another one of those "fixing something that didn't need fixing" things that they do so well...what exactly was wrong with the old system of household registration?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:21 pm

Prompted by the discussion of private ambulances and their use in emergencies and how it relates to the blue light incident when my late wife suffered a brain haemorrhage. I had initially called a doctor because her collapsing and suffering a fit was nothing new since her stroke some 13 years earlier. However the severity on this occasion was worse than had been the case for some time. Indeed the GP (not my favourite but possibly based on little more than halitosis) who visited, did relatively little and seemed more concerned with his next call than my questions.

I was particularly stressed at the time because I was already overdue and marking OU assignments, it being lass than a fortnight since prolapsing discs having literally not slept for the first ten days doing little more than apologising for being mardy. Indeed another of the doctors (a favoured one) had given me sleeping tablets when I begged for them. I then had one and a half hours sleep and awoke in even more pain than before, subsequently fearing sleep for its aftermath but needing it anyway because I was no longer functioning.

I digress but it does portray the relative lack of my own judgement at the time. Feeling more concerned a little later, this time out of hours another doctor called and immediately called an ambulance but could not get one. After several minutes and calls, I cannot be sure, he secured one from Derby some 17 miles away (town centre anyway). Why I suspect that this was possibly a private one was that albeit a blue light emergency they did not know the way to Burton Hospital so advised that they would have to follow me, something I have previously mentioned. The abuse directed my way by drivers giving way was the least of my problems. I have been asked before now why didn't I use my hazard lights. Simple answer: the ambulance behind needed my indicating where to go. Sorry about that, but I still hold myself largely responsible for the severity of her subsequent state.

Finally, and I had thought this may pertain to such times given my search criteria but interesting nonetheless from my exceedingly brief appraisal, I have found this 32 page document from the NHS Support Federation: EMERGENCY AMBULANCE SERVICES IN ENGLAND Under pressure and threatened by privatisation (http://www.nhsforsale.info/uploads/imag ... july27.pdf)

Postscript: I seem to have divulged much more than before these last couple days, namely my own failing in duty of care and being absent when my wife finally passed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:24 pm

Living wage fears sending 'shockwaves' through UK labour market

James Hick, a spokesman for Manpower, said: “The national living wage is sending shockwaves through the UK labour market. An unintended consequence of its introduction is that firms might try to bypass the legislation altogether. We anticipate that some employers may look to mitigate the extra costs by taking on more young or self-employed workers, who are not entitled to the national living wage.

Support services firm Interserve recently announced that the extra annual wage bill for its 15,000 cleaners could amount to £15m, or 12% of its annual profits.

Mears Group estimated the cost of meeting the wage rises for its 4,000 care workers would be £5m, or 10% of its annual profits. “Faced with a wage bill of this size, some employers are thinking twice about taking on new workers,” Hick said.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... our-market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone on the thread asked where the money to pay workers a living wage is coming from.
Oh, please

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:33 pm

goodnight, everyone
love
cJA