Tuesday 29th September 2015

Post by **refitman** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 7:11 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:01 am

Sorry, I know this won't be of interest to those who only care about England, or Nuneaton or wherever, but Cardiff uni's Roger Scully's done a new blog on how the political party leaders are seen in Wales, and crunched numbers on seat projections for next year's Assembly elections.

It is still seven months or so until May, but this week's poll figures, if number crunched, show
the Tories still as the main opposition in Wales, Plaid third, and thankfully so far UKIP in fourth place with 7 Assembly seats.

The Party Leaders – New Evidence from Wales
http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinw ... rom-wales/

No, Wales is not England, and a boost in Labour support here may not help win seats in England.

But it means a lot to us Labour supporters who live in Wales that Labour keep control of the Assembly next year, and regain parliamentary seats.

Would have thought it was important to all Labour supporters that Labour are seen to be doing well in Wales.
Polls may be discredited at the moment, but they are the only indication of how things are going, even if they may be viewed as unreliable.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:02 am

Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:13 am

Must say I was a little disappointed to hear a preview of his speech picked over by Sarah Montague.
Radio 4 are emphasising the Corbyn to say he 'loves his country' stuff.

That feels a little like Ed's attempts at catch up when he and his dad were smeared by the right wing press and the dog whistling about (don't mention he's Jewish wink wink) bacon sandwiches.

But, on the other hand, as the Tories are pushing 'Corbyn's a national security risk' angle in such a Goebbels-esque way it may be necessary to make it overt.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:23 am

@Willow

I don't think 'new politics' (how I hate that phrase) is just about not posing for pics, or not using any media spin if you can. It's much more, as Lucy Powell tried to get Sarah Montague to comprehend.

My view is a Corbyn led party should be like the Italian slow food movement.
Nothing to be done cheaply, instantly, at the snarling behest of a snack food hungry media.
Let things develop, be discussed and served up when ready.

Whether the British electorate, or indeed some Labour members, are sophisticated enough in their political palates to appreciate that remains to be seen.
But you have to live with some form of hope surely ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:31 am

Steve Richards makes a good point.

'Jeremy Corbyn is ushering in a welcome new era of non-macho politics
The outdated assertive style began with Margaret Thatcher, whose self-confident assertiveness was partly an act'
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 70686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I moaned about others using crystal balls to predict gloom and doom.
But have dusted mine off to predict that Corbyn's leadership will have a positive effect on British politics, and the Labour party, as long as he actively models what he stands for.
As budding novelists are told, 'show, not tell',

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:51 am

Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?

Radio5 is doing it's best to make out that Labour is bad for Labour.

Unfortunately everyone they talk to at conference is just too damn enthusiastic.

LadyCentauria wrote: Ladies, Gentlemen, Comrades; I give you the Ernst's Kitchen Yorkshire Tart - aka the EkyTart:
A Custard of Puréed Tripe, Rhubarb, Lumb's Quality Ice-Cream, and Hendersons' Relish, lovingly encased in a Blind-baked Parkin casing, then Slow-cooked to ensure a Crisp Top concealing the soft smooth Custard within.

Can I have horseradish sauce with that please LadyC?

Good morning.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:53 am

See you all later.

Only got six hours to work up a frenzy of ecstasy for Corbyn's speech

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 9:05 am

yahyah wrote:Steve Richards makes a good point.

'Jeremy Corbyn is ushering in a welcome new era of non-macho politics
The outdated assertive style began with Margaret Thatcher, whose self-confident assertiveness was partly an act'
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 70686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I moaned about others using crystal balls to predict gloom and doom.
But have dusted mine off to predict that Corbyn's leadership will have a positive effect on British politics, and the Labour party, as long as he actively models what he stands for.
As budding novelists are told, 'show, not tell',

Good article, thanks.
The mystery thriller comparison, was a bit ominous,

Hope your crystal ball shows doesn't end up as a
'who dunnit'.

Corbyn and McDonnell portray their approach as “new politics”. There is no such thing. They seek to navigate a way through the crowded political stage. We are witnessing an extraordinary power struggle in which Corbyn’s internal opponents also search for space.
Being in Brighton this week is like being immersed in a mystery or thriller where no one is sure what form the end will take.

edited too make (some) sense.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 9:26 am

Steve Bell's latest

John McDonnell valiant, Tory Chancellor Jeffrey backed against a pink wall

Out of the nose of the swine's head, it has a mouth for it must scream:
'get me out of this job, you guys told me I'd lose, I can't do this gig! tell them anything! I want out!'

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ch-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 9:29 am

Good-morning, everyone.

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 9:54 am

Good morning.

From the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/34385718

Tour de France 2017: London turns down chance to host start

Given the upfront costs and the prospect of major cuts to transport spending across the UK later this year, it is understood bosses at TfL and the Greater London Authority, its parent body, decided the city could not afford a third visit from the world's biggest bike race.

I wonder what TfL knows that we don't.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 10:39 am

After yesterday, does John McTernan now have the squatters rights in the BBC studios that used to be afforded to the Taxpayers Alliance?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 10:44 am

Morning

Latest amendments re Work and Welfare Bill,for those interested.

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... ments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 11:18 am

Reading the written evidence in the link above

From Carers UK.

"Recent DWP research shows that households containing Carer’s Allowance claimants subjected to the cap are more likely to move into work then those not capped . This research reinforces Carers UK concerns that the cap may ultimately act to disincentivise family care , forcing carers back into work as their finances collapse and they can no longer afford to care . This ultimately pu ts e xtra strain on already stretched social care services who are forced to step in and provide care at a substantially higher cost to the public purse ."

Of course,not an insubstantial amount of people "combine" at a few hours a week,"encouragement" of making a claim for WTC an obvious ploy in this situation.For "may ultimately"cited above you can put"already is and inevitably will further"Still no confirmation,as yet CA or Carer Premium will not subjected to freezing(of course in reality if on means tested benefits it already is a cut).They will not be ,if on the same basis as previously,but does highlight the (lack of) importance not to even mention.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 11:20 am

Aftmoreveninoon...

EXCLUSIVE — FAKE SHEIK CHARGED
The decision follows a Scotland Yard investigation — Operation Silverhawk — and comes after the aborted trial of singer Tulisa Contostavlos in July 2014.
The singer’s prosecution followed a Sun on Sunday sting in June 2013.
After an elaborate operation, Mahmood and his team persuaded Tulisa to contact a friend who then supplied them with drugs.
Judge Alastair McCreath stopped the trial after Mahmood gave contradictory evidence about changes to a statement made by his driver Alan Smith.

https://pressganguk.wordpress.com/2015/ ... k-charged/

CPS statement here...http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/ ... f_justice/

"After carefully considering all of the evidence the CPS has decided that there is sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction and it is in the public interest to charge both men. This decision comes after it was alleged that Mr Smith agreed with Mr Mahmood to change his statement to police as part of a trial in July 2014, and that Mr Mahmood then misled the court.

He's got the same defence team as was supplied for Rebukakakakakah....how much will this cost Murkydochia?...and what could possibly go wrong?

...and...

So afraid of the Saudis: How the Brits daren't cancel a contract to bolster barbaric justice

Michael Gove, the new justice secretary, last week announced he was closing down Just Solutions International, the commercial wing of the Ministry of Justice that was flogging expertise to unsavoury regimes including Oman and the Saudis.

...I'm sorry, the 'what' now?....'commercial' 'wing'....sorry, again, what?

This is a secretive organisation that the ministry refused to reveal any details about - despite admitting there are 2000 emails about its operations. A splendid thorough investigation of the background of the company's bid for Saudi Arabia has been written up by David Allen Green on his Jack of Kent blog(Here - http://jackofkent.com/)

...oh, I see...most transparent government evaahhh...blah blah blah (or should that be 'blurt blurt blurt'?)

https://www.byline.com/column/22/article/437

...and Oborne strikes again, this time on Shaker Aamer...

Shaker Aamer may well be one of the very few people capable of shedding light on the darkest and most cynical of all the lies used to justify the Blair/Bush invasion of Iraq.
I am talking about the completely false claim, repeatedly made by the United States in order to justify the planned invasion of Iraq, that Saddam Hussein provided Al Qaeda with training in chemical and biological weapons.
This fabricated, completely implausible assertion was based on information seemingly extracted under torture from a Libyan citizen called Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who, like Aamer, was captured in Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... crets.html

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 11:27 am

"General" consensus ,appears to be that the conversion to loan for homeowners is very much dependent on as yet unspecified terms;against the increased waiting time;the need for independent advice;whether just "new" or existing claims too.Patel has made a plethora of amendments in particular. "as the S of St.sees fit"which tells you nothing but everything at the same time.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 11:34 am

minch wrote:Good morning.

From the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/34385718
Tour de France 2017: London turns down chance to host start

Given the upfront costs and the prospect of major cuts to transport spending across the UK later this year, it is understood bosses at TfL and the Greater London Authority, its parent body, decided the city could not afford a third visit from the world's biggest bike race.
I wonder what TfL knows that we don't.

London has turned down the chance to host the start of the 2017 Tour de France, angering the race owners.
London beat bids from Edinburgh, Manchester and several German regions to stage the Grand Depart.
But last week, a day before contracts were meant to be signed, Transport for London (TfL) said it was pulling out.

I don't understand how they can win the bid and then refuse to sign the contract.

Regarding funding cuts to the Department of Transport across the UK, aside from acknowledging some motorway paving (and the quoted reference indicated it wasn't enough), the contributions were much the same as the author of this below.

Construction industry leaders react to the announcements in the Chancellor’s Budget today
Emergency Budget 2015: Reaction round-up
8 July 2015

Jon Hart, infrastructure partner at law firm Pinsent Masons, said:
“As in previous years, we are going to have to wait until the Autumn Statement to see how precisely the further cuts are going to be applied to the big spending departments like the Department for Transport, but today’s budget has continued the uncertainty around opportunities for the nation’s roads, airports or railways for investors and the wider business community.

“No express reference was made to rail investment, despite the recent project cancellations - although reference to providing a statutory footing and £30m for the Transport for the North is to be welcomed - but only as a means to an end in improving transport connectivity. No talk of Network Rail, mired in review by the regulator and silence on HS2 and Crossrail 2 either indicate that perhaps rail investment is going to be subject to further examination before the Autumn spending announcements.”

http://www.building.co.uk/emergency-bud ... 91.article

Osborne's wandering thoughts called 'Emergency Summer Budget - We won and don't know how we're going to do this job...' are little use.
The Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) document below is better.

Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses
July 2015
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _PRINT.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edited to add - cuts - lots of spending cuts for public transportation in the UK.
It's near and dear to me.
My spouse and I depend upon public transportation.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:09 pm

Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?

We're all fine.
Really.
Media is such an overwrought piece of work.

My MP is Tristram Hunt.
I'm happy he's supporting Corbyn now.
He knows what's at stake.
Apologies to you all for my lengthy quotes.
I think it's important to interrupt the media threads spun daily and contact those in the Labour party close to you to touch base with them.

"First of all, we need to accept that the old ways are dying.

The command-and-control, disciplinarian message of 1990s political management is incompatible with the coming age of individualism and authenticity. More than that, part of the attractiveness of the Corbyn campaign was the perception that an open conversation was central to his politics. This tapped into the same raw hostility towards the closed political habits of a technocratic elite that has emboldened so much European populism on both left and right. For Podemos in Spain or the Five Star Movement in Italy, the pluralism of the movement has been a vital recruiting tool.

All of which means that the messy, open, often contradictory process of Labour party democracy can no longer be regarded as an unwelcome impediment to pure policy delivery. Discussion of politics and development of policy need to become one and the same.

For the Labour party to remain relevant and electable requires a new politics of patriotism, alongside a political economy up to the job of tackling inequality. This cannot be a miserabilist rant about the state of contemporary Britain. It needs to have, as Eric Hobsbawm used to say, ‘the future in its bones’: a socialism that embraces technology and modernity and sees the function of the state as supporting and empowering citizens in an age of insecurity.

Tristram Hunt
27 September 2015

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... byn-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:17 pm

yahyah wrote:Sorry, I know this won't be of interest to those who only care about England, or Nuneaton or wherever, but Cardiff uni's Roger Scully's done a new blog on how the political party leaders are seen in Wales, and crunched numbers on seat projections for next year's Assembly elections.

It is still seven months or so until May, but this week's poll figures, if number crunched, show
the Tories still as the main opposition in Wales, Plaid third, and thankfully so far UKIP in fourth place with 7 Assembly seats.

The Party Leaders – New Evidence from Wales
http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinw ... rom-wales/

No, Wales is not England, and a boost in Labour support here may not help win seats in England.

But it means a lot to us Labour supporters who live in Wales that Labour keep control of the Assembly next year, and regain parliamentary seats.

Would have thought it was important to all Labour supporters that Labour are seen to be doing well in Wales.
Polls may be discredited at the moment, but they are the only indication of how things are going, even if they may be viewed as unreliable.

This news is huge, yahyah. I apologise if I've not written or posted here greater support for Labour in Wales. It wasn't an intentional slight.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:37 pm

Yes yahyah, many of us noticed the Welsh survey and how it didn't fit the "Corbyn will inevitably be a total failure" narrative.

But personally I am disinclned to place too much emphasis on polls whatever they say right now. Its still *very* early days.........

All I will say for the moment is that conference seems to be going better than some "experts" predicted. One awaits with interest what Jez has to say

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:37 pm

Parliament home page - Parliamentary business - Committees - All committees A-Z - Commons Select - Public Accounts Committee - News - No record of homes built on sold-off public land

No record of homes built on sold-off public land
Meg Hillier MP, Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts said:

"The Government should be embarrassed by the failings uncovered by the PAC's inquiry into land disposal. Its entire approach has been wishful thinking dressed up as public policy. It also demonstrates an alarming complacency over the future of an irreplaceable public asset. Many thousands of people desperately need homes and an effective land disposal programme should provide two significant benefits: much-needed housing and much-needed cash for the public purse.

Yet the Government has no record of how many homes have been built or are under construction. It has no record of sale proceeds, nor their value in relation to prevailing market prices. There is no means of knowing whether taxpayers are getting a good deal from the sale of their land. We are told enough public space has now been sold off to accommodate more than 100,000 homes at nearly 950 sites. Land disposed of by the Ministry of Defence alone could hold an estimated 39,000 properties.

The Government cannot tell us how many of these homes now exist - or will ever exist. Instead it appears simply to have hoped huge numbers of houses would spring up across the country. Government departments have been instructed to draw up plans for further spending cuts and many people are rightly worried about the effects these will have on struggling public services.

It is an insult to taxpayers that the potential economic benefits arising from the sale of public land should be put at risk by such short-sighted Government mismanagement.
With the next housing target already announced the Government needs to learn from its mistakes."

No proof of success
The Department for Communities and Local Government cannot demonstrate the success of the land disposal programme in addressing the housing shortage or achieving value for money because it does not collect information on the actual number of houses built or under construction, the proceeds from land sold, or whether the parcels of land were sold at market value. Instead, it chose to focus only on a notional number for 'potential' capacity for building houses on the land sold by individual departments in order to determine 'success'.

The Department also counted towards the programme's target the capacity of land sold before the programme had even started. It did not collect basic information necessary to oversee the programme effectively and, where it did collect programme-level data, there were omissions and inconsistencies.

With much greater ambitions for land disposals in the new Parliament, the Department must address the weaknesses in the current programme, and the Department has accepted that it needs to improve its general monitoring.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... mes-15-16/

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:41 pm

From the Parliamentary website
My head hits the table top before I make it to news outlets!
Oh, look, Dave, Chancellor Jeff, Pickles, IDS, look!
You've lost UK property!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:44 pm

Good morfternoon.

Janan Ganesh in the Financial Times (subscription) says the rise of Corbyn is not generated by social failure, but contentment. If things were really bad, Corbyn’s supporters would worry more about gaining power, he argues.

Mr Corbyn’s rise to eminence is not a verdict against Britain’s social failures. His movement is not, as it claims, a howl at inequality and questing militarism that has been gathering wind under complacent elites for years. Corbynism is not an expression of how bad things have become but how comfortable they are. Whatever our era ends up being called — late capitalism, high modernity — it has thrown up a class of people who can afford to treat politics as a source of gaiety and affirmation.

The electors who were decisive in giving him the run of the Labour party tend not to be working class or doctrinally socialist or even very political, though all three types exist in his ranks. They are public-sector professionals or students on their way to becoming the same.(Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Yes - junior doctors are just full of gaiety.

What a load of old McCobblers.

Edited to add

And what evidence is there for this sweeping claim about the leadership electorate?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 12:49 pm

yahyah wrote:Must say I was a little disappointed to hear a preview of his speech picked over by Sarah Montague.
Radio 4 are emphasising the Corbyn to say he 'loves his country' stuff.

That feels a little like Ed's attempts at catch up when he and his dad were smeared by the right wing press and the dog whistling about (don't mention he's Jewish wink wink) bacon sandwiches.

But, on the other hand, as the Tories are pushing 'Corbyn's a national security risk' angle in such a Goebbels-esque way it may be necessary to make it overt.

To that, I, [and I'm sure the rest of us on here] can say 'I love my country', but it doesn't mean I like it at times. I certainly don't like the way it's being run and the disgusting behaviour that some of my fellow countrymen/women are displaying.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:13 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?
We're all fine.
Really.
Media is such an overwrought piece of work.

My MP is Tristram Hunt.
I'm happy he's supporting Corbyn now.
He knows what's at stake.
Apologies to you all for my lengthy quotes.
I think it's important to interrupt the media threads spun daily and contact those in the Labour party close to you to touch base with them.
"First of all, we need to accept that the old ways are dying.

The command-and-control, disciplinarian message of 1990s political management is incompatible with the coming age of individualism and authenticity. More than that, part of the attractiveness of the Corbyn campaign was the perception that an open conversation was central to his politics. This tapped into the same raw hostility towards the closed political habits of a technocratic elite that has emboldened so much European populism on both left and right. For Podemos in Spain or the Five Star Movement in Italy, the pluralism of the movement has been a vital recruiting tool.

All of which means that the messy, open, often contradictory process of Labour party democracy can no longer be regarded as an unwelcome impediment to pure policy delivery. Discussion of politics and development of policy need to become one and the same.

For the Labour party to remain relevant and electable requires a new politics of patriotism, alongside a political economy up to the job of tackling inequality. This cannot be a miserabilist rant about the state of contemporary Britain. It needs to have, as Eric Hobsbawm used to say, ‘the future in its bones’: a socialism that embraces technology and modernity and sees the function of the state as supporting and empowering citizens in an age of insecurity.

Tristram Hunt
27 September 2015

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... byn-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't realise Tristram Hunt was your MP. I know some people don't rate him, but I've always rather liked him and think it's a shame he's no longer in the shadow cabinet.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:20 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Janan Ganesh in the Financial Times (subscription) says the rise of Corbyn is not generated by social failure, but contentment. If things were really bad, Corbyn’s supporters would worry more about gaining power, he argues.

Mr Corbyn’s rise to eminence is not a verdict against Britain’s social failures. His movement is not, as it claims, a howl at inequality and questing militarism that has been gathering wind under complacent elites for years. Corbynism is not an expression of how bad things have become but how comfortable they are. Whatever our era ends up being called — late capitalism, high modernity — it has thrown up a class of people who can afford to treat politics as a source of gaiety and affirmation.

The electors who were decisive in giving him the run of the Labour party tend not to be working class or doctrinally socialist or even very political, though all three types exist in his ranks. They are public-sector professionals or students on their way to becoming the same.(Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
Yes - junior doctors are just full of gaiety.

What a load of old McCobblers.

Edited to add

And what evidence is there for this sweeping claim about the leadership electorate?

He's Osborne's biographer and buddy. Did you expect anything less?

Post by **refitman** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:22 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?
We're all fine.
Really.
Media is such an overwrought piece of work.

My MP is Tristram Hunt.
I'm happy he's supporting Corbyn now.
He knows what's at stake.
Apologies to you all for my lengthy quotes.
I think it's important to interrupt the media threads spun daily and contact those in the Labour party close to you to touch base with them.
"First of all, we need to accept that the old ways are dying.

The command-and-control, disciplinarian message of 1990s political management is incompatible with the coming age of individualism and authenticity. More than that, part of the attractiveness of the Corbyn campaign was the perception that an open conversation was central to his politics. This tapped into the same raw hostility towards the closed political habits of a technocratic elite that has emboldened so much European populism on both left and right. For Podemos in Spain or the Five Star Movement in Italy, the pluralism of the movement has been a vital recruiting tool.

All of which means that the messy, open, often contradictory process of Labour party democracy can no longer be regarded as an unwelcome impediment to pure policy delivery. Discussion of politics and development of policy need to become one and the same.

For the Labour party to remain relevant and electable requires a new politics of patriotism, alongside a political economy up to the job of tackling inequality. This cannot be a miserabilist rant about the state of contemporary Britain. It needs to have, as Eric Hobsbawm used to say, ‘the future in its bones’: a socialism that embraces technology and modernity and sees the function of the state as supporting and empowering citizens in an age of insecurity.

Tristram Hunt
27 September 2015

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... byn-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I didn't realise Tristram Hunt was your MP. I know some people don't rate him, but I've always rather liked him and think it's a shame he's no longer in the shadow cabinet.

Personally, I think he's a good MP but was fairly rubbish in his shadow brief.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:25 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

According to R4 this morning, Corbyn supporters will be in 'ecstasy' when he speaks tday. Everyone else will be fretting. We Labour lot are clearly an over-emotional, neurotic bunch.

In the meantime we had some Blair related person, didn't catch who it was, saying those who elected a left-wing rebel may be disappointed when leadership forces compromise and Corbyn comes to resemble everyone else who has taken the job. We've already had the posed photo and a script of the speech in advance to the press. How much of a 'new' politics is really possible? And how important is it to those who are desperate for Labour to change in some way?
We're all fine.
Really.
Media is such an overwrought piece of work.

My MP is Tristram Hunt.
I'm happy he's supporting Corbyn now.
He knows what's at stake.
Apologies to you all for my lengthy quotes.
I think it's important to interrupt the media threads spun daily and contact those in the Labour party close to you to touch base with them.
"First of all, we need to accept that the old ways are dying.

The command-and-control, disciplinarian message of 1990s political management is incompatible with the coming age of individualism and authenticity. More than that, part of the attractiveness of the Corbyn campaign was the perception that an open conversation was central to his politics. This tapped into the same raw hostility towards the closed political habits of a technocratic elite that has emboldened so much European populism on both left and right. For Podemos in Spain or the Five Star Movement in Italy, the pluralism of the movement has been a vital recruiting tool.

All of which means that the messy, open, often contradictory process of Labour party democracy can no longer be regarded as an unwelcome impediment to pure policy delivery. Discussion of politics and development of policy need to become one and the same.

For the Labour party to remain relevant and electable requires a new politics of patriotism, alongside a political economy up to the job of tackling inequality. This cannot be a miserabilist rant about the state of contemporary Britain. It needs to have, as Eric Hobsbawm used to say, ‘the future in its bones’: a socialism that embraces technology and modernity and sees the function of the state as supporting and empowering citizens in an age of insecurity.

Tristram Hunt
27 September 2015

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... byn-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I didn't realise Tristram Hunt was your MP. I know some people don't rate him, but I've always rather liked him and think it's a shame he's no longer in the shadow cabinet.

I like him too. It isn't his fault he was born into a middle class family and called Tristram - something some people seem to find a no-no for a Labour politician,

But, and obviously the press may have hyped it to get at Corbyn, if he was involved with plotting anti-Corbyn 'resistance' then it is very disappointing.
But his recent utterances seem placatory, hope he lives up to them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:33 pm

BBC PoliticsVerified account ‏@BBCPolitics 50m50 minutes ago
Nationalising the railways is now official Labour Party policy as activists vote to adopt it at their conference. http://bbc.in/1LiQ3rU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting the BBC say activists rather than Labour members.
Surprised they didn't slot in a Militant or hard left in there somewhere.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:35 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Janan Ganesh in the Financial Times (subscription) says the rise of Corbyn is not generated by social failure, but contentment. If things were really bad, Corbyn’s supporters would worry more about gaining power, he argues.

Mr Corbyn’s rise to eminence is not a verdict against Britain’s social failures. His movement is not, as it claims, a howl at inequality and questing militarism that has been gathering wind under complacent elites for years. Corbynism is not an expression of how bad things have become but how comfortable they are. Whatever our era ends up being called — late capitalism, high modernity — it has thrown up a class of people who can afford to treat politics as a source of gaiety and affirmation.

The electors who were decisive in giving him the run of the Labour party tend not to be working class or doctrinally socialist or even very political, though all three types exist in his ranks. They are public-sector professionals or students on their way to becoming the same.(Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
Yes - junior doctors are just full of gaiety.

What a load of old McCobblers.

Edited to add

And what evidence is there for this sweeping claim about the leadership electorate?

There is no evidence, indeed the claim is contradicted by the YouGov surveys and other findings.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:37 pm

Reading house prices fastest rising in UK for August

2.4% rise in August takes average price to £255k

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/readin ... g-10153406

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:40 pm

I've just been watching a repeat of Owen Smith's conference speech on BBC parliament. Easily the best speaker I've seen so far, by a large margin. Good he's got the shadow DWP brief.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:45 pm

Willow904 wrote:I've just been watching a repeat of Owen Smith's conference speech on BBC parliament. Easily the best speaker I've seen so far, by a large margin. Good he's got the shadow DWP brief.

& he's from Wales

We've got a lot of talent here, and I say that as an English born person and not a Nat.

I agree it is sad we've lost some experienced faces from the shadow cabinet, but it is good to see newer faces getting a chance.

I suspect that a lot of voters felt lack of confidence in the same old crew, seeing them implicated in Labour's failures.
Whether the failures were a reality doesn't matter, it is how things are perceived.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:46 pm

He seems to have found his niche after a rather less impressive spell as shadow Welsh secretary (his performance in the Wales GE debate was widely criticised)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:He seems to have found his niche after a rather less impressive spell as shadow Welsh secretary (his performance in the Wales GE debate was widely criticised)

<coughs> I was trying to ignore that having witnessed one of the occasions he was up against
Wood etc. His writings and articles have always been spot on though.

Not sure why Carwyn didn't participate in the debates.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 1:51 pm

Am out planting bulbs now to avoid the live anguish of Corbyn's speech, am beginning to see what it's like for football supporters waiting for their team to play. A mix of sick stomach and hopeful anticipation.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:03 pm

Quite.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:10 pm

Angela Eagle tells Andrew he won't get any bullshit from her.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:16 pm

Who's got the security contract for this year's conference?

Edited to add -

Actually, scrub that. That sort of arrangement was probably finalised well before the new leadership came into being.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:18 pm

Ridiculously nervous.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:20 pm

I quite often click onto news.google.com

Do the Torygraph pay to have their story as the main headline on each topic?

This week the google news coverage of Labour is unremittingly headlined as 'Corbyn is a holocaust denier' or similar from the Telegraph, followed by more reasonable headlines in smaller print from the Groan, Indy, BBC etc.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:32 pm

Going to have to moan about Corbyn, sorry.

We weren't "at the edge of the abyss".

Debt in 2008- 38%

Brown really doesn't need to listen to this stuff from his own party.

Corbyn's called in economic advisers, which is good. One of them, Simon Wren-Lewis, has said that Brown was the most heedful of economists' advice of any chancellor ever. If Corbyn thinks they're going to tell him what he wants to hear, he's sadly mistaken.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:39 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:

Quite.

Quite cutting for Chris Cook, who normally sticks to facts and figures.

He used to work for the FT, where Ganesh works. Wonder if he doesn't like him from that time.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:40 pm

"Where's the security?"

Good line from Corbyn.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:54 pm

I'm sharing this with you because I'm glad Tristram Hunt and over a few hundred thousand people belong and continue our political activism as members of the Labour party. I have only the vaguest idea of what the hell he's writing about in the first paragraph when he mentions Gaitskell. I know Bevan and Gaitskell didn't get on. I love Bevan, of course, so yahyah can help educate me about the history of the Labour party.

He wrote us the reason he stood down as a shadow cabinet minister.

14 September 2015

Dear Members,

As you may have read, following Jeremy Corbyn’s election as the new leader of the Labour Party I have resigned from my position as the party’s Shadow Education Secretary. I think it is important to be honest about this: my politics are different to Jeremy’s. From Hugh Gaitskell, to Antony Crosland and early New Labour, there is a revisionist strand within the Labour Movement which seeks to translate our eternal values - social justice, equality and fairness - into practical policies for the modern era.

For better or worse, that is the Labour tradition to which I belong and there is no point denying it now the political tide within the party flows in a different direction. Amongst some more ‘colourful' comments my social media platforms has received over the last few days have been many people suggesting that my resignation is a divisive act.

It is not.

However, the blunt truth is that Jeremy is about to enter a maelstrom of media hostility and there is a very real danger that principled disagreement will be exploited to portray the party as divided. No matter how much we open up the party, the need for absolute collective responsibility within the Shadow Cabinet in the face of this onslaught remains undiminished. Therefore, I feel, given the public nature of our disagreement on key matters of substance, that Jeremy’s leadership is best served by my resignation. Nevertheless, there are of course a myriad of ways one can serve the party.

It should not need saying but my loyalty to the party and our new leadership team is absolute.

Even a mandate of this magnitude should not be used to silence debate - the lifeblood of any democratic organisation - but I believe Jeremy now needs to be given time and space to implement his agenda. However, for this to happen successfully, any lingering hostilities and grievances should now be shelved. Personal abuse, score-settling, talking up division - the only thing such acts are going to achieve is to divert attention from Jeremy’s attempts to set out his positive vision.

Besides which, internal disagreements should not be overstated: they are nothing compared to our collective revulsion at what this new Tory government is doing to our city, communities and country. Cutting tax credits, closing Sure Start centres, attacking trade unions, besmirching charities, threatening the BBC, ignoring inequality, undermining European solidarity, cutting FE Colleges - I could go on and on. As Tom Watson, our excellent new Deputy Leader pointed out in his acceptance speech, now is the time to turn our attention squarely towards this miserable Tory government. We must march on with respect, humility but most of all, together - starting with our opposition to the deplorable trade union bill later this week.

Yet my resignation does free up more time to serve both our CLP and the city. My politics continue to be guided first and foremost by Stoke-on-Trent and it will not be lost on you that voter turnout in this constituency was depressingly poor at the last general election. Throughout this leadership campaign I have stated very clearly my concerns with the ability of traditional social democracy to develop a community focused political project and this is absolutely shaped by the experience of campaigning in this constituency during the last election. As such, the need to root our party in local communities once again is something I certainly do agree with Jeremy upon and I look forward to spending more time turning our constituency party into a stronger force for community renewal, urban regeneration and helping those vulnerable people most affected by the Tory agenda.

In these challenging times for our city, we should not just protest and bemoan the fact we are out of power but use our collective abilities to help people as much as we can, understand their suffering, and show we are on their side. There is a proud history in the Labour Party, from its origins and before, of self-help and community resilience - and I think we must use that to develop a transformative agenda for the Six Towns, working alongside colleagues from the Trade Union movement.

But, as ever, I will be guided by your ongoing support, enterprise and ideas as we march forward - with respect, humility, but most of all together.

Yours fraternally,

Tristram

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 2:58 pm

Grown up politics....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 3:00 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Grown up politics....

~~Did I miss something?~~
Nope.
Good.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 3:00 pm

"He says the commentariat do not understand the new politics. They report disagreements as splits, and agreement and compromise as concessions and capitulation.

This is just grown-up politics, he says."

Hallelujah!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 3:02 pm

StephenDolan wrote:"He says the commentariat do not understand the new politics. They report disagreements as splits, and agreement and compromise as concessions and capitulation.

This is just grown-up politics, he says."

Hallelujah!

Yes!
Good, I was working on grown up politics just before you posted.
I am assuming you're quoting from Corbyn.
Apologies if I'm mistaken.
Sounds wonderful whoever said it.