Wednesday 30th September 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:21 pm

I suppose I am going to have to ponder whether the Labour party is the party for me if Corbyn's realistic approach on nuclear weaponru is treated with such horror.

Time to make a pitch Tizme ?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:21 pm

yahyah wrote:I'll get booed and hissed I know for saying this.
But is suggesting taking a position of being brave enough to discard one's nuclear weapons really that wrong ?

Sometimes it takes people brave enough to say 'end slavery', 'give votes to women', 'lets have universal suffrage'.

Maybe we need to be brave enough to say we're willing to lay down appalling, human and planet destroying weapons.

Can see the right wing thinking of using MAD as a vote winner at this rate.
Labour people don't need to be helping them.

No, it's not wrong at all.
It's an essential conversation to have.
I also understand many people will have a problem with Corbyn's position and I'll listen to them in order to understand better.
That's what Corbyn's about.
We may disagree on points of substance but we stay around the table together.
We stay together.
Please.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:45 pm

yahyah wrote:There's some stuff here about the expulsions and proscribed organisations in the book I've just read.
Amazing how much I'd already forgotten.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tgc ... ur&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep!

From the first, the Labour party MPs and members have historically disagreed.
Strongly disagreed.
Let's take lessons from history and remember the Labour party is still here and strong.
Let's take a step back, don't hold too tight, let things develop because flouncing out should only be done if you're going on a hike or fetching chocolate and you'll come back as soon as you can.

Let's not allow ourselves to get side-tracked from the Tories.

I know this may be controversial but I think it's just - those in the current Tory party are making a big mistake, every one of those Tory MPs are not in a just government. I know there may be some individuals who're okay but they belong to the Tory party. Look at what their Tory government does, with their votes and support. Tory government hums along losing land, running health care providers out of the country, can't get teachers in classrooms, care workers openly exploited, industry we can really use, you know, like to make wind turbines and railway equipment, owned by others, allowed to fail and shut down by unprofessional, irresponsible Tory brats I'd literally not let watch the shop floor for fifteen minutes on their own, making us all indentured servants by writ.

I ask every Tory party MP, member and supporter to examine your conscience and cross the floor.
The human beings in the Tory party are people like me but they've joined a bad group.
The Tory party is a far-right government causing damage to people and country.

It doesn't have to be this way.
I'm proud of the Labour party and the people in it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:48 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:I suppose I am going to have to ponder whether the Labour party is the party for me if Corbyn's realistic approach on nuclear weaponru is treated with such horror.

Time to make a pitch Tizme ?
FWIW I'm right with you.

I'm with you both too.
We sit around a circular table.
All of us.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:57 pm

Good afternoon all,
As a native of Teesside, who spent a few years working at the steel works, I'm heartbroken at what's happening there at the moment.
Then I read this:

http://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/newswire/ro ... -taxpayer/

Roman Abramovich is getting a 45 million pounds loan from the government to invest in upgrading a steelmaking facility in Canada.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:02 pm

Cameron's going to allow the Cabinet a free vote on EU membership. Corbyn allows a free vote on Trident. What's the problem?

Only way Trident can be scrapped is if the Tories scrap it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:10 pm

And on that, I agree with Tubby

Those "horrified" by Jez's line on nukes seem to fall into two camps:

1) those worried about jobs, not just directly but the possible wider impact of scrapping Trident (totally understandable, especially given my domicile in W Cumbria)

2) those desperate, for whatever reason, to refight the battles of the 1980s (rather less so)

People shouldn't imagine the second group are of any great importance - their bark exceeds their bite.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:33 pm

yahyah wrote:I'll get booed and hissed I know for saying this.
But is suggesting taking a position of being brave enough to discard one's nuclear weapons really that wrong ?

Sometimes it takes people brave enough to say 'end slavery', 'give votes to women', 'lets have universal suffrage'.

Maybe we need to be brave enough to say we're willing to lay down appalling, human and planet destroying weapons.

Can see the right wing thinking of using MAD as a vote winner at this rate.
Labour people don't need to be helping them.

Well. I'm right behind him on that one. I wouldn't want to press the button either and more power to his elbow for being truthful about it. Nuclear weapons are - to my mind - self defeating.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:43 pm

I dunno, but get the impression a lot of those who say keep Trident aren't really thinking about what would happen if nuclear weapons were used. It'd be Armageddon...So why have them? If there is a country crazy enough to lob one our way, we'd not be in a very good position to retaliate would we.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:48 pm

Pat_ JFT96 ‏@Pat_167 2 mins2 minutes ago

Tom Watson: 2,200 joined Labour after Jeremy Corbyn's 'new politics' address
[Full speech] http://ibt.uk/A006Nu3
via @IBTimesUK #LabCon

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:28 pm

Far more worrying is Dave having the authority to press the button. We ought to run a mile from Trident with him in power.
He'd listen to the 'experts' about as much as he does on other matters, which is sweet sod all...And he'd do it without turning a hair if he thought it was going to make him look good.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:30 pm

For me the whole point of Corbyn is that he has created space to have conversations about issues like Trident.

I actually don't care that he probably won't ever be PM. The country needs to talk about subjects that have been closed to us, like being anti-austerity, about Trident etc

Let's debate the pros and cons of Trident in 2015 - this conversation hasn't been held in public for 30 years. If the majority are for a nuclear deterrent so be it. But at least we'll know why we have it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:39 pm

What a palaver applying for a disabled parking badge from the council. Mr Ohso is struggling to walk any distance these days and when we can't a parking space on the right level at the hospital it involves a walk further than a football pitch. I'm struggling to get the groceries to the car when he's parked too far away, and we've given up going to some places, so we decided it was time we got one.

As many and almost identical questions as when applying for citizenship. As many proof of who you are documents, plus proof and details of medical history and names of specialists and doctors....With a photograph, and ten quid.

And all because some people lie about being ill in order to get free parking. What has happened to the world!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:41 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Hmmm, is TE above *really* saying above that JC is unelectable as PM because he refuses to press a button that would incinerate millions?

I thought anyway that the whole point of nuclear deterrence was exactly that - the weapons exist precisely so that they should *not* be used.
Yes, that's correct.
The deterrent part relies upon a leader being willing to push the button, or at least bluffing well enough to make it unwise to test the strength of conviction.
Jeremy Corbyn has told the world he won't use nuclear weapons.
The deterrent is gone.

It's safer and more responsible not to use nuclear weapons, of course.
It's also a better use of resources, safer and more responsible to disarm the weapons that won't ever be used.

Some disagree with this plan.
The deterrent element is based on uncertainty. Corbyn may not be willing, as a pacifist, to give the order, but he could step down at any moment. As such, as long as we have the weapon, there remains a possibility it may be used, so the deterrent remains. If Corbyn is weakening UK security by saying he won't use it, Cameron is equally weakening UK security by failing to get on and renew it. There have been maintenance issues with this aging arsenal:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... -submarine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've only just now read your post, Willow904.
Good information.

I'm a pacifist.
I used to know for sure any leader of a nation can also be a pacifist, committed to non-violent negotiation and conflict resolution.
I no longer know that for sure.
My re-evaluation has nothing to do with Corbyn; I've been thinking on this for over five years.

Cameron is utterly unprofessional, without credentials and a disaster area.
I weary of the vicious, incessant, mostly irrelevant fault-finding the Labour party (MPs and members) are subjected to while current Tory government receives no media censure for their stream of failures.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:56 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Hmmm, is TE above *really* saying above that JC is unelectable as PM because he refuses to press a button that would incinerate millions?

I thought anyway that the whole point of nuclear deterrence was exactly that - the weapons exist precisely so that they should *not* be used.
No I am saying he is unelectable as PM for a whole host of reasons however here are two related to Trident.

Supporting CND has in the past made Labour unelectable and there is no real evidence majority public opinion has changed (Kinnock lost in 87 and dumped the policy because he saw it as a disaster).

The whole point of a deterrent is to deter, which is why serious politicians are bright enough never to answer the question would you use it. You have to believe they might. The fact he answered the question just defies belief.

What Corbyn should have said is -" I do not believe in nuclear weapons, however to the extent they have a function it is to act as a deterrent, and that function is best served by not answering your question."

The fact he lost the vote on it, but has still made it headline news and engineered a massive row with his shadow defence secretary, plus a huge split with his key front bench MPs, takes a special kind of total incompetence found in relatively few individuals.

(my bold)

Are you seriously suggesting Corbyn intentionally engineered a conflict with the Labour defence minister and other members of the team? No, Corbyn's leadership of the Labour party isn't incompetent nor is he seeking conflict for it's own sake. I try understanding your concerns but it's not fair, what you've written. It's nasty.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:01 pm

yahyah wrote:Memo to self.
Remember that CND was once a proscribed organisation according to Labour party rules.

Labour CND
Campaigning for peace and nuclear disarmament within the Labour Party
http://www.labourcnd.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:10 pm

UK helped Saudi Arabia get UN human rights role through 'secret deal' to exchange votes, leaked documents suggest
'The ministry might find it an opportunity to exchange support with the United Kingdom', leaked cable reportedly reads

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uk ... 73491.html

This is utterly disgraceful...Where's the outrage about this? The media and some Labour members are busy forcing arguments over Trident, whilst Eammon Holmes has made a right pratt of himself nit picking over Corbyn's tie.

Edited to add. It's not only utterly disgraceful, it's a fucking crime and it's about time the nitpicking members of the Labour party got their bloody act together and started fighting the real enemy in our midst.

And I'm not going to apologise for my language. I've been quite restrained compared to what I'd like to say.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:13 pm

Afternoon all.
Regarding Corbyn and trident etc,my personal view is that I would prefer not to have a PM who would 'press the button',thus murdering thousands of innocent people.What good would it do?Who could have that much blood on their hands?
And that's all I will say on the matter,except ,if you will forgive me,fuck the media.
Anyway,thankyou mrs OhSo for the dog at the vets photo!!!
Now,I know there are a few insomniacs here,so want to talk about a cd I just bought for my daughter who often is awake and agitated for hours.Haven't tried it for her yet,but I am now on the last track and have needed a strong coffee.It is 'From Sleep',by Max Richter.I bought the hour long cd,but there is an 8 hour i tune version available.
Seriously peaceful and soporific,will update on daughters response(tho this may be to bin it if she's in that sort of mood).
Back to Labour,my ex husband was here earlier.He voted Labour for the first time in May(a staunch libdem forever before that),and before the coffee was made he was telling me how great Corbyn is.Do you think he counts as a Corbynista or whatever they are called?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:23 pm

Aylesburyowl ‏@aylesburyowl 4 hrs4 hours ago

when did willingness to commit mass genocide make you prime ministerial ? #scraptrident

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:27 pm

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Memo to self.
Remember that CND was once a proscribed organisation according to Labour party rules.

Labour CND
Campaigning for peace and nuclear disarmament within the Labour Party
http://www.labourcnd.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is no longer a proscribed organisation, but the back story of when it was verboten still hovers around these issues.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:29 pm

I learnt this song, I Want To Have A Little Bomb Like You, when I was six - along with the guitar accompaniment, when my guitar was probably still bigger than me. My (now late) father had the record this is taken from (The Edinburgh Folk Festival, 1964 - reissued in 1969) and bought me a book of protest songs which had the song and chords in it, along with many other songs, and the loss of which, somewhere along the lines of my life, I much regret. In this recording, the words sung in the third verse differ from Stanley Carter's original lyric and go as follows:

Mao Tse Tung to Kruschev said,
I want to have a little bomb like you,
My bomb will be twice as red,
I want to have a little bomb like you.
If we all go up in flames,
That will be a bloody shame!
I want to have a little bomb like you do,
I want to have a little bomb like you.

Other verses have only tiny differences. Couldn't find it on youtube so you'll need to listen to it on this link. Sorry.
https://www.vanwa.ch/u/sebastian/m/i-wa ... -like-you/

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:31 pm

Rebecca wrote:Afternoon all.
Regarding Corbyn and trident etc,my personal view is that I would prefer not to have a PM who would 'press the button',thus murdering thousands of innocent people.What good would it do?Who could have that much blood on their hands?
And that's all I will say on the matter,except ,if you will forgive me,fuck the media.
Anyway,thankyou mrs OhSo for the dog at the vets photo!!!
Now,I know there are a few insomniacs here,so want to talk about a cd I just bought for my daughter who often is awake and agitated for hours.Haven't tried it for her yet,but I am now on the last track and have needed a strong coffee.It is 'From Sleep',by Max Richter.I bought the hour long cd,but there is an 8 hour i tune version available.
Seriously peaceful and soporific,will update on daughters response(tho this may be to bin it if she's in that sort of mood).
Back to Labour,my ex husband was here earlier.He voted Labour for the first time in May(a staunch libdem forever before that),and before the coffee was made he was telling me how great Corbyn is.Do you think he counts as a Corbynista or whatever they are called?

I've heard about that CD. Rave reviews. Hope it works. I might try it.
I've slept badly for years despite following all the advice. I think I've kicked it and then slip back again. Weirdly I now find myself waking up through the night to check on Mr Ohso, just like I did when the kids were young.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:35 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Memo to self.
Remember that CND was once a proscribed organisation according to Labour party rules.

Labour CND
Campaigning for peace and nuclear disarmament within the Labour Party
http://www.labourcnd.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is no longer a proscribed organisation, but the back story of when it was verboten still hovers around these issues.

I hear you.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:46 pm

Anyone remember 1965 and the vote to suspend hanging for five years ?
I was only nine so am having to go by things I've read about it.

According to Antony King in his 'Who Governs Britain' public opinion was very against ending capital punishment. Yet MPs went against that public opinion on a point of principle.

Even in 1969 when a Commons vote abolished capital punishment Tory Duncan Sandys was arguing
"We have a duty to give the fullest consideration to the clearly expressed wishes of those we represent.

"We have no right to assume that the firmly held views of the overwhelming majority of the British people are unworthy and misguided."

Yet MPs risked the wrath of voters, went against prevailing public opinion.

If such a matter was on the table today, would some of those in the Labour party be saying 'we can't vote to scrap hanging, the voters would never forgive us they'd all flock to UKIP ?'

Edited to add: I only read the Antony King book as a friend lent it to me. Would say, don't bother to read it as not much new in it. I do like the fact that Nick Clegg only gets a one line mention and it isn't that flattering.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:50 pm

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
It is no longer a proscribed organisation, but the back story of when it was verboten still hovers around these issues.
I hear you.

Was I shouting ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 5:58 pm

Peter Jukes Retweeted
Krishnan Guru-Murthy ‏@krishgm 1h1 hour ago
Why is it some are treating the bloke who says he wouldn't nuke anyone like HE's the crazy person?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:02 pm

Isabel HardmanVerified account ‏@IsabelHardman 4h4 hours ago
Terrific leader's speech from Tom Watson

Will go and find it to listen.
No doubt some in Labour will have torn it to shreds by now.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:02 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Hmmm, is TE above *really* saying above that JC is unelectable as PM because he refuses to press a button that would incinerate millions?

I thought anyway that the whole point of nuclear deterrence was exactly that - the weapons exist precisely so that they should *not* be used.
No I am saying he is unelectable as PM for a whole host of reasons however here are two related to Trident.

Supporting CND has in the past made Labour unelectable and there is no real evidence majority public opinion has changed (Kinnock lost in 87 and dumped the policy because he saw it as a disaster).

The whole point of a deterrent is to deter, which is why serious politicians are bright enough never to answer the question would you use it. You have to believe they might. The fact he answered the question just defies belief.

What Corbyn should have said is -" I do not believe in nuclear weapons, however to the extent they have a function it is to act as a deterrent, and that function is best served by not answering your question."

The fact he lost the vote on it, but has still made it headline news and engineered a massive row with his shadow defence secretary, plus a huge split with his key front bench MPs, takes a special kind of total incompetence found in relatively few individuals.

He didn't "lose the vote on it." There was no vote. The CLPs and the Affiliates each put forward a range of questions they wanted fully debating at Conference. Defence (which includes Trident, etc.,) did not gain sufficient support amongst either nominating grouping to go forward to Compositing and debate/vote - the available time at Conference for which is reserved to the top four topics (by percentage) from each grouping.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:05 pm

May be of interest,

Leon Rosselson, "I heard it on the radio"

Questions why we need nuclear deterrent when e.g. Switzerland doesn't

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3F2YpuQUo5I

Also topical,
"Whoever invented the fishfinger"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru7d2uhvzu ... ogle&gl=GB

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:06 pm

Going into the realms of fantasy now, but I can't help but wonder -

Suppose 67% of the registered electorate were to join the Labour Party - would the press still try to spin it that the Party was only "speaking to its members"?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:07 pm

That's so good tinybgoat !

''Whoever invented the fishfinger'', the song I've been waiting for all my life.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:08 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Rebecca wrote:Afternoon all.
Regarding Corbyn and trident etc,my personal view is that I would prefer not to have a PM who would 'press the button',thus murdering thousands of innocent people.What good would it do?Who could have that much blood on their hands?
And that's all I will say on the matter,except ,if you will forgive me,fuck the media.
Anyway,thankyou mrs OhSo for the dog at the vets photo!!!
Now,I know there are a few insomniacs here,so want to talk about a cd I just bought for my daughter who often is awake and agitated for hours.Haven't tried it for her yet,but I am now on the last track and have needed a strong coffee.It is 'From Sleep',by Max Richter.I bought the hour long cd,but there is an 8 hour i tune version available.
Seriously peaceful and soporific,will update on daughters response(tho this may be to bin it if she's in that sort of mood).
Back to Labour,my ex husband was here earlier.He voted Labour for the first time in May(a staunch libdem forever before that),and before the coffee was made he was telling me how great Corbyn is.Do you think he counts as a Corbynista or whatever they are called?
I've heard about that CD. Rave reviews. Hope it works. I might try it.
I've slept badly for years despite following all the advice. I think I've kicked it and then slip back again. Weirdly I now find myself waking up through the night to check on Mr Ohso, just like I did when the kids were young.

Mr Ohso is very lucky to have such a good wife.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:08 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:13 pm

yahyah wrote:Peter Jukes Retweeted
Krishnan Guru-Murthy ‏@krishgm 1h1 hour ago
Why is it some are treating the bloke who says he wouldn't nuke anyone like HE's the crazy person?

And who would you prefer to have with the finger on the button, a)Jeremy Corbyn who would not use it b)a dead pig fucker or c)a coke head?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:16 pm

@rob

Am shocked about Hague hadn't realised he was a hang 'em & flog 'em type.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:20 pm

tinybgoat@

Just sent the link to my hubby in the other room, and now I can hear him chuckling & singing ''We'll have to be microscopic particles of patriotic dust''.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:32 pm

North West Tonight ‏@BBCNWT 2h2 hours ago
Labour councillors threaten Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk with legal action.They say his office libelled them over a child abuse cover up.(more)

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:36 pm

Evening folks,
Surprised we haven't heard this, from Tom Lehrer today.
[youtube]frAEmhqdLFs[/youtube]

Hope the link works.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:41 pm

You just have to put the short code after the = 55DN

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:42 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote: It is no longer a proscribed organisation, but the back story of when it was verboten still hovers around these issues.
I hear you.
Was I shouting ?

No, no, I was writing how I talk
'I hear you' = I understand and acknowledge the importance of what you're communicating to me.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:43 pm

And since we've been on Chemistry today, a chance for a double Tom Lehrer

[youtube]DYW50F42ss8[/youtube]

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:47 pm

Could someone please help me out here.
I'm very angry about the VW emissions thing.
I don't want to upset anyone.
I need your help.
There's a lot of data published prior to this time about how damaging this pollution is and current government won't bust a move to help nobody.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:54 pm

Rebecca wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Rebecca wrote:Afternoon all.
Regarding Corbyn and trident etc,my personal view is that I would prefer not to have a PM who would 'press the button',thus murdering thousands of innocent people.What good would it do?Who could have that much blood on their hands?
And that's all I will say on the matter,except ,if you will forgive me,fuck the media.
Anyway,thankyou mrs OhSo for the dog at the vets photo!!!
Now,I know there are a few insomniacs here,so want to talk about a cd I just bought for my daughter who often is awake and agitated for hours.Haven't tried it for her yet,but I am now on the last track and have needed a strong coffee.It is 'From Sleep',by Max Richter.I bought the hour long cd,but there is an 8 hour i tune version available.
Seriously peaceful and soporific,will update on daughters response(tho this may be to bin it if she's in that sort of mood).
Back to Labour,my ex husband was here earlier.He voted Labour for the first time in May(a staunch libdem forever before that),and before the coffee was made he was telling me how great Corbyn is.Do you think he counts as a Corbynista or whatever they are called?
I've heard about that CD. Rave reviews. Hope it works. I might try it.
I've slept badly for years despite following all the advice. I think I've kicked it and then slip back again. Weirdly I now find myself waking up through the night to check on Mr Ohso, just like I did when the kids were young.
Mr Ohso is very lucky to have such a good wife.

I try. Not always as patient as I should be though....

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 6:59 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 8m8 minutes ago
Winners of the Labour conference: McDonnell, Watson, Benn, Akehurst and Greenwood. http://bit.ly/1LkkWvZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 7:15 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 8m8 minutes ago
Winners of the Labour conference: McDonnell, Watson, Benn, Akehurst and Greenwood. http://bit.ly/1LkkWvZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

McDonnell and Watson did very well. Benn is presumably now on the way out, shafted over the NEC and a known critic of Corbyn on defence.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 7:25 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:The whole point of a deterrent is to deter, which is why serious politicians are bright enough never to answer the question would you use it. You have to believe they might. The fact he answered the question just defies belief.

What Corbyn should have said is -" I do not believe in nuclear weapons, however to the extent they have a function it is to act as a deterrent, and that function is best served by not answering your question."

The fact he lost the vote on it, but has still made it headline news and engineered a massive row with his shadow defence secretary, plus a huge split with his key front bench MPs, takes a special kind of total incompetence found in relatively few individuals.
So you expect a poltician who has campaigned against nuclear weapons his whole career to say 'you know what? I've fought this for decades, but now I'm leader of the party, I just might have completely changed my mind'? Everyone knows his position, and that includes foreign nuclear powers. I think it's pretty much a given that were he to become PM and have to write the letter to submarine commanders telling them what to do in the event of a nuclear strike, the instruction would be to not retaliate.

Part of Corbyn's appeal is that he doesn't dodge questions in the way most politicians do. He's actually getting credit for giving a straight answer here.

He lost a vote to debate it at conference, not to never discuss it again. The issue is still there and it's still an elephant in the room. It absolutely has to be resolved.

Talk of a 'massive row' and 'huge split' is just way over the top in my opinion. Your insulting last line is beneath you.

I stand by my view that Corbyn answering that question was utterly incompetent. How you can not interpret statements from both Eagles and Burnham, plus a slap down from a union leader as anything other than a massive row is beyond me.

Corbyn is leader of the party, he claims to want to be PM and I suspect he won't be able to change this policy easily (the unions won't have it - they remember the 80s humiliation and they want a Labour government). If he isn't prepared to follow policy he needs to quit, or declare he is passing authority to the Defence secretary.

And please stop making moral judgements about me, you know nothing about me or my values. It is quite legitimate to point out just how incompetent I think Corbyn's actions here have been. Others are free to disagree of course and they will. If Cameron had done the equivalent the language here would have been more colourful and less respectful.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 8:01 pm

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 8:06 pm

More deaths due to air pollution
Air pollution could claim 6.6 million lives by 2050
September 16, 2015

Every year 3.3 million people die prematurely from the effects of air pollution worldwide - a figure that could double by 2050 if emissions continue to rise at the current rate. This is the conclusion of a study carried out by a team of researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Chemistry in Mainz. Surprisingly, the largest sources of air pollution are not industry and transport but small domestic fires and agriculture.

Vehicle emissions cause twice as many deaths as traffic accidents in Germany

Lelieveld believes that the high number of smog-related deaths in Germany compared to other European countries is due chiefly to the country’s central location in Europe. “Germans also have to breathe the polluted air from other countries,” he says. On the other hand, Germany – a densely populated country with much industry, intensive agriculture and high traffic densities – causes a considerable amount of air pollution itself.

Traffic, to which the researchers attribute only five percent of deaths worldwide, accounts for 20 percent of deaths in Germany, or about 7,000 lives a year.
Thus, twice as many people die from the effects of vehicle emissions than from road accidents.

http://www.mpg.de/9405012/mortality-air-pollution

(my bold)
Look, even Tory government produced a document.

Valuing impacts on air quality: Updates in valuing changes in emissions of
Oxides of Nitrogen (NOX) and concentrations of Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2)
September
2015

Recent developments in the evidence now allow the quantification and valuation of the direct effect of exposure to nitrogen dioxide (NO2) on mortality. Given the significance of this impact and interim recommendations from the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollution this paper updates Defra guidance.

This change is only relevant to policies, programmes and projects that impact on NO2 concentrations. It therefore applies both to actions that directly change NO2 concentrations and, as far as practicable, to emissions of its precursors.

As emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOX) are a key cause of NO2 concentrations the valuations of NOX emissions have been updated.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... idance.pdf

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 8:08 pm

ohsocynical wrote:

I loved the ''I'm never going to let go of the pigs head''.
So Cameron has gone from condom head to pigs head/condom head.
I like Corbyn as a fox.Seems like Steve Bell is a bit of a fan.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 8:19 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:I just don't see what is so wrong with honesty. Corbyn would have been shredded if he'd have lied or evaded. I just don't see how you get incompetent from that.

Unless his strategy is to over-emphasize his honesty, there are better ways of telling the truth in answer to that question.