Wednesday 7th October 2015

minch · Post by **minch** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:39 pm

yahyah wrote:Did they spend so much on the new Independent site they can't afford journalists to update the web pages ?

I find it only updates on Firefox if you hit ^R ^R to force a refresh.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:44 pm

I know everyone's feeling twitchy.
TE's constant jeremiads about Jeremy don't help. I just hope he's as good at predicting lottery tickets as elections.
His is also a luxurious position to be in, when there's no way of knowing what would have happened if the someone other than Corbyn had won.

This is one day. There will be four and a half more years for Labour to fight back.
A week is a long time in politics, four and a half even longer.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:45 pm

minch wrote:
yahyah wrote:Did they spend so much on the new Independent site they can't afford journalists to update the web pages ?
I find it only updates on Firefox if you hit ^R ^R to force a refresh.

Thanks. I use Chrome as my attempts to use Firefox got me a malware problem, but it may be something similar.

minch · Post by **minch** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:49 pm

yahyah wrote:I know everyone's feeling twitchy.
TE's constant jeremiads about Jeremy don't help. I just hope he's as good at predicting lottery tickets as elections.
His is also a luxurious position to be in, when there's no way of knowing what would have happened if the someone other than Corbyn had won.

This is one day. There will be four and a half more years for Labour to fight back.
A week is a long time in politics, four and a half even longer.

Who can remember last year's conferences, for that matter who can remember this year's Lib conference?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:50 pm

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:51 pm

Night all.

Met Office are saying you may be able to see the Northern Lights in some areas tonight.
We're just on the cusp here, but the northwest, north Wales, Merseyside may be good.

Met Office Twitter has details.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:What a lot of doubters.

Despite the press not jumping on Cameron:

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him speak.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?

This.
I have read todays posts with increasing dismay.
Corbyn was right there,speaking to thousands.Perhaps somebody could tell me if that many people would have gathered to listen to Kendall,Cooper or Burnham?Have you seen the pictures?
And you are all unhappy and derisive because the soundbite wasn't good enough?
Rachel Reeves was bitching the other day,other than that have the shadow cabinet gone on holiday?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:58 pm

The Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) has serious concerns about the impact of this programme on its investigation into allegations of child sexual abuse and homicide, on the witnesses involved, and on the willingness of victims of abuse to come forward to police.

We have warned previously about the risks of media investigations compromising a criminal investigation. When we initially launched our Operation Midland appeal, we specifically highlighted how a media organisation - the BBC in fact - had shown pictures of individuals to 'Nick' which could compromise the evidential chain should a case ever proceed to court.

http://news.met.police.uk/news/statemen ... e=sendgrid

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:15 pm

Oh yeah, the disgrace of a young black girl changing her name to get a job. Funny that I never got a reply asking Dave whether I need change my name to get a flat.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:19 pm

yahyah wrote:Night all.

Met Office are saying you may be able to see the Northern Lights in some areas tonight.
We're just on the cusp here, but the northwest, north Wales, Merseyside may be good.

Met Office Twitter has details.

Goodnight, yahyah!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:31 pm

minch wrote:
yahyah wrote:I know everyone's feeling twitchy.
TE's constant jeremiads about Jeremy don't help. I just hope he's as good at predicting lottery tickets as elections.
His is also a luxurious position to be in, when there's no way of knowing what would have happened if the someone other than Corbyn had won.

This is one day. There will be four and a half more years for Labour to fight back.
A week is a long time in politics, four and a half even longer.
Who can remember last year's conferences, for that matter who can remember this year's Lib conference?

Actually I remember Cameron once again dragging his son into his speech...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:41 pm

Rebecca wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:What a lot of doubters.

Despite the press not jumping on Cameron:

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him speak.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?
This.
I have read todays posts with increasing dismay.
Corbyn was right there,speaking to thousands.Perhaps somebody could tell me if that many people would have gathered to listen to Kendall,Cooper or Burnham?Have you seen the pictures?
And you are all unhappy and derisive because the soundbite wasn't good enough?
Rachel Reeves was bitching the other day,other than that have the shadow cabinet gone on holiday?

To be fair I've just read that McDonnell was on a picket line today, but other than that - and I follow quite a few MPs - there has been very little about the weekend.
Seems to me if they're not careful, they'll be left behind because people are fed up with the old status quo. And if that happens they'll have no-one to blame but themselves.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:52 pm

Rebecca wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:What a lot of doubters.

Despite the press not jumping on Cameron:

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him speak.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?
This.
I have read todays posts with increasing dismay.
Corbyn was right there,speaking to thousands.Perhaps somebody could tell me if that many people would have gathered to listen to Kendall,Cooper or Burnham?Have you seen the pictures?
And you are all unhappy and derisive because the soundbite wasn't good enough?
Rachel Reeves was bitching the other day,other than that have the shadow cabinet gone on holiday?

We always knew Corbyn could address crowds- many of whom probably won't even vote Labour when it comes to it.

I've got no sense yet that he can oppose Cameron effectively. If you'd attacked Salmond for hating Scotland a few years ago when he needed support, he'd have hit you hard back. He'd not have delegated the response to an uninspired spokesman who makes some of the Miliband-era stuff sound like Churchill.

In this case, turn it back on Cameron, it's easy. He hates Britain and wants to hand it over to overseas business donors. Attack Cameron's personality- it's not a nice personality.

I want "real opposition". This isn't it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:57 pm

minch wrote:
yahyah wrote:I know everyone's feeling twitchy.
TE's constant jeremiads about Jeremy don't help. I just hope he's as good at predicting lottery tickets as elections.
His is also a luxurious position to be in, when there's no way of knowing what would have happened if the someone other than Corbyn had won.

This is one day. There will be four and a half more years for Labour to fight back.
A week is a long time in politics, four and a half even longer.
Who can remember last year's conferences, for that matter who can remember this year's Lib conference?

I remember that Ed had a poor conference last year, after a couple of really good ones in previous years, and that the Tories got a small bounce on the back of their better performance that took them right through to a majority in May. I also remember after Labour were defeated in May that pretty much everyone agreed they hadn't responded quickly enough to the Tory narrative of Labour over-spending in 2010 and that it was crucial they didn't let the Tories steal a march again. I thought that might involve a robust rejection of Cameron's fraudulent attempt to claim the "middle ground". Some people like to predict how others will react to the new Labour leader, but all I'm sharing is the how his leadership is impressing me and it's not, particularly. So far I've found his leadership underwhelming. Better than an outright disaster, of course, but with the Tories running rampant I could do with a bit more hope, a bit more of a sense that Labour can make the arguments that are important to me and win them. I can't see the point of Corbyn talking to a few thousand people, if Cameron is left free to lie to the rest of the country unchallenged.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:21 pm

Willow904 wrote:
minch wrote:
yahyah wrote:I know everyone's feeling twitchy.
TE's constant jeremiads about Jeremy don't help. I just hope he's as good at predicting lottery tickets as elections.
His is also a luxurious position to be in, when there's no way of knowing what would have happened if the someone other than Corbyn had won.

This is one day. There will be four and a half more years for Labour to fight back.
A week is a long time in politics, four and a half even longer.
Who can remember last year's conferences, for that matter who can remember this year's Lib conference?
I remember that Ed had a poor conference last year, after a couple of really good ones in previous years, and that the Tories got a small bounce on the back of their better performance that took them right through to a majority in May. I also remember after Labour were defeated in May that pretty much everyone agreed they hadn't responded quickly enough to the Tory narrative of Labour over-spending in 2010 and that it was crucial they didn't let the Tories steal a march again. I thought that might involve a robust rejection of Cameron's fraudulent attempt to claim the "middle ground". Some people like to predict how others will react to the new Labour leader, but all I'm sharing is the how his leadership is impressing me and it's not, particularly. So far I've found his leadership underwhelming. Better than an outright disaster, of course, but with the Tories running rampant I could do with a bit more hope, a bit more of a sense that Labour can make the arguments that are important to me and win them. I can't see the point of Corbyn talking to a few thousand people, if Cameron is left free to lie to the rest of the country unchallenged.

But what do you mean by leadership?

Leadership the old way? Because that worked well didn't it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:23 pm

I am far from a doubter.I am 99.99999 recurring % certain that there is a much chance of Corbyn becoming PM as Shep the dog.

Said with love(get down Shep)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:27 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
He is not rattled because he knows he has the press in his pocket, the neoliberal wing of the Labour Party supports his draconian policies and that he does not do empathy.

He doesn't care what anyone thinks and he can just ignore those that don't agree with him

Precisely. Which is why regardless of who is Labour leader they are unelectable. Which is why we might as well have Corbyn taking the party to the left, and bothering to do anything other than pander to said press.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:40 pm

Rebecca wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:What a lot of doubters.

Despite the press not jumping on Cameron:

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him speak.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?
This.
I have read todays posts with increasing dismay.
Corbyn was right there,speaking to thousands.Perhaps somebody could tell me if that many people would have gathered to listen to Kendall,Cooper or Burnham?Have you seen the pictures?
And you are all unhappy and derisive because the soundbite wasn't good enough?
Rachel Reeves was bitching the other day,other than that have the shadow cabinet gone on holiday?

That's the problem Corbyn is speaking to thousands, almost all supporters. Cameron is pitching to millions, it is a deeply cynical immoral and untruthful pitch but at least he is trying.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
He is not rattled because he knows he has the press in his pocket, the neoliberal wing of the Labour Party supports his draconian policies and that he does not do empathy.

He doesn't care what anyone thinks and he can just ignore those that don't agree with him
Precisely. Which is why regardless of who is Labour leader they are unelectable. Which is why we might as well have Corbyn taking the party to the left, and bothering to do anything other than pander to said press.

I don't believe that, a charismatic leader with the courage to campaign from the left on austerity, affordable housing and a desire to deal with the elite could win. But they would pick selective fights and dump the left wing albatross policies. Cameron and the Tories are vulnerable to a more mainstream, but less Blairite than 2015, Labour Party.

It might have been Burnham, probably wasn't. KS might be the best option and he should probably be put in place some time next year (unless of course the polls are wrong and Corbyn wipes the floor with the Tories in May). Dan Jarvis is a PR dream as leader, not sure he is animated enough though.

I don't buy the Corbyn stepping down thing advanced by some. I feel he is happy to lead a party of perpetual opposition as long as it is left wing. So either he will be pushed out or we are fighting 2020 with him as candidate.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:04 pm

The Guardian - ‎2 hours ago‎
David Cameron has lambasted Jeremy Corbyn as a “security threatening, terrorist-sympathising, Britain-hating” ideologue in his strongest attack yet on the Labour leader, which was designed to show that he is wholly unsuitable to lead Britain.

I love the ambiguity here

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:12 pm

You know, I walked away from this place because I was sick of listening to the non-stop hate campaign led by TechnicalEphemera who is oh so certain of what the future will hold, all those years into the future. I came back to listen and I'm still getting it. It's boring as hell, it's anti-democratic - he got elected on an overwhelming margin but, as Seumas Milne put it, some establishment elements in Britisgh politics don't care a fig for democracy if it doesn't produce the result they approve of - and I'm sick of listening to you.

So hail and farewell to those with an open mind who don't believe they know everything about the future, and may those w hose minds are closed get the biggest comeuppance going. I shalln't be reading any more of it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:22 pm

mbc1955 wrote:You know, I walked away from this place because I was sick of listening to the non-stop hate campaign led by TechnicalEphemera who is oh so certain of what the future will hold, all those years into the future. I came back to listen and I'm still getting it. It's boring as hell, it's anti-democratic - he got elected on an overwhelming margin but, as Seumas Milne put it, some establishment elements in Britisgh politics don't care a fig for democracy if it doesn't produce the result they approve of - and I'm sick of listening to you.

So hail and farewell to those with an open mind who don't believe they know everything about the future, and may those w hose minds are closed get the biggest comeuppance going. I shalln't be reading any more of it.

I guess there's only one person who can persuade you otherwise mbc

But thanks from me for all your contributions here

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:59 pm

mbc1955 wrote:You know, I walked away from this place because I was sick of listening to the non-stop hate campaign led by TechnicalEphemera who is oh so certain of what the future will hold, all those years into the future. I came back to listen and I'm still getting it. It's boring as hell, it's anti-democratic - he got elected on an overwhelming margin but, as Seumas Milne put it, some establishment elements in Britisgh politics don't care a fig for democracy if it doesn't produce the result they approve of - and I'm sick of listening to you.

So hail and farewell to those with an open mind who don't believe they know everything about the future, and may those w hose minds are closed get the biggest comeuppance going. I shalln't be reading any more of it.

Don't know if you'll read this, hope you do, and reply.

It's precisely the democratic verdict TE is worried about. And I am, if Corbyn is still leader in 2020. I don't know if he'll even win back much of Scotland- the SNP don't seem "rattled". They're saying that he has little chance in England, so independence is all the more necessary.

It could all work well though- he re-energizes everybody, oversees debate and a successor emerges who can take it on.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:02 pm

The young woman Dave talked of - she didn't change her name, she used her middle name, so he's been telling porkies or not doing his homework or something. Always slipshod, and cares not a hoot that people can see through him, he's so convinced of his own invincibility. The young woman herself? Apparently she is a Corbyn supporter.

Sadiq Khan has been out and about talking on housing, people aren't stupid they know what is affordable and working 175 hour weeks to pay for daves starter homes isn't a viable proposition even for a couple, even if young doctors are being expected to achieve the impossible.

I have it on good authority that a leading light - until recently - who headed up a flagship long running broadcast from Aunty, one you'd all know of, also leans a little towards our new leadership, so it isn't just the outer echelons of our society who are taken by honesty.

Coverage of the outdoor address at Manchester cathedral seems to have been mislaid by utube, if anyone has a link that works it would be much appreciated.

I'm usually too late with any repartee, so while I read most days I've not commented in ages, but thank you all, whether I agree with you or not. Ohso, my thoughts have been with you and mr Ohso, especially when you showed your frustration with the lack of progress on getting to the next stage of mr ohsos treatment. It sometimes feels like the bits of our NHS that used to be mainly joined up are more than a little unstuck, so I'll be hoping you encounter the good people who make the effort to hold it together in spite of everything.

I'm mightily perturbed by some of what's been said at the Tory conference and the things invoked by it too. If this is them when they hope to impress what else have they got in their box of horrors. I'm starting to feel the tide turning a little, and don't blame Labour for not trying to outdo the Tory love fest. I wish I was more adept with posting images because there are some cracking shots of our Home Secretary with legs akimbo, Osbourne style, either they share a body language coach or they've been coaching each other, UD there's one for the imagination.... But back to Labour; Miliband had no luck at all countering the media on Tory terms, attacking at expected moments.... I quite like the idea of them feeling unbeatable, they are revealing things they didn't dare show before, and I'm seeing more distaste and actual disgust at what they are doing, and saying, and the media can't turn it around do easily when so many people see them at it. They look vicious corrupt and dishonest. And more than a bit triumphal about it. This is good, and all Corbyn needs to do is be principled, honest, and stick to his no personal attacks stance. Tory policy is hated, and when the tax credits stuff starts to hit it will I think be daves poll tax. And that will be the time to come out fighting. With 4 and a half years to go today is not the right time. Let the horror sink in a bit. Dave can't have it all his own way, he can't preach pluralistic democracy and them go on an anti immigrant anti refugee rant. The dishonesty is palpable, especially when he has neither researched his own references adequately or even asked whether the people concerned wish to be in his speech. And his use of the tiny Syrian child who died was craven.

I hear IDS had to use his invisibility cloak again today. His plans for merging UC and disability benefits are making things clearer. Without any improvement in employability for disabled people, or any real commitment from employers on the subject it looks as though he'll go ahead with taking away what shreds of the safety net are left for those with any bare residual capacity for work, this is not going to go down well with families and friends, and his statement about disabled people working their way out of poverty is utterly disgraceful. As one disabled person asked, this morning, what if you can't? Believe me all these things will get discussed, and aired in a wider context, but not on Tory terms, but on moral and social grounds. In economic terms, can we afford not to take care of people, because there is a huge cost if you don't, whether they are disabled, sick disadvantaged or different. I'm happy that it looks as though these things I'll get discussed in a very different context to the one the Tory narrative gives. It's right that it should happen that way, because we can't gain ground on their terms, it's too polluted and its festering with ill will. In the meantime it was sobering to watch the documentary on Britain First, the last thing we need is a right wing woman with a Joan of Arc type mentality. Glad to see that it's not gone down too well with most people, though the white crosses and willingness to die for 'our way of life' could be a magnet for the unstable. I'll take my kind family oriented Muslim neighbours whose children bring me delicious food whenever they celebrate anything over such people any day.

You all keep me going when things aren't smooth, mostly because I know that's also the case for so many here, and so I'll wish you all good days, and hopeful ones too.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:05 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
He is not rattled because he knows he has the press in his pocket, the neoliberal wing of the Labour Party supports his draconian policies and that he does not do empathy.

He doesn't care what anyone thinks and he can just ignore those that don't agree with him
Precisely. Which is why regardless of who is Labour leader they are unelectable. Which is why we might as well have Corbyn taking the party to the left, and bothering to do anything other than pander to said press.
I don't believe that, a charismatic leader with the courage to campaign from the left on austerity, affordable housing and a desire to deal with the elite could win. But they would pick selective fights and dump the left wing albatross policies. Cameron and the Tories are vulnerable to a more mainstream, but less Blairite than 2015, Labour Party.

It might have been Burnham, probably wasn't. KS might be the best option and he should probably be put in place some time next year (unless of course the polls are wrong and Corbyn wipes the floor with the Tories in May). Dan Jarvis is a PR dream as leader, not sure he is animated enough though.

I don't buy the Corbyn stepping down thing advanced by some. I feel he is happy to lead a party of perpetual opposition as long as it is left wing. So either he will be pushed out or we are fighting 2020 with him as candidate.

I don't think he particularly enjoys leading- he never even considered it till a couple of months ago.

He does have something nobody (outside of Scotland) in frontline politics has now, with his ability to draw crowds and speak well to them. I think he'll want to do more of that. He could do it, as part of the central Labour effort or as backbencher. It's definitely possible for him to find a role where he plays to his strengths and is still important. Leader though, I don't see that for 5 years.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:07 pm

Jeez...just seen that Cameron bit about Corbyn.

What an utter prick.

Britain-hating?

OK, you can have a go at their politics but claiming they hate Britain? That's Daily Mail-esque.

He really doesn't look sincere when he's speaking.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:08 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: I want "real opposition". This isn't it.
You want media relations. That's not opposition.

I want decent attacks on Cameron for his nasty bollocks. Turn that "hates Britain" back at him, mention Cameron selling Britain off to international business donors.

How is that "media relations"?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:12 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ch-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:13 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Jeez...just seen that Cameron bit about Corbyn.

What an utter prick.

Britain-hating?

OK, you can have a go at their politics but claiming they hate Britain? That's Daily Mail-esque.

He really doesn't look sincere when he's speaking.

He looks even worse when he someone gives it back to him.

I don't think it was wise to make so much of "no personal attacks". His personality is unappealing. Attack it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:16 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: I want "real opposition". This isn't it.
You want media relations. That's not opposition.

Are you referring to what I said about how he answered that Trident question?

Make sure you tackle Trident when you want. Don't let a fall out with your shadow minister get all the headlines on the last day of your conference when you can be announcing populist stuff.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:22 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ew-figures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron's 'assault on poverty' pledge undone by new figures
Resolution Foundation report says planned welfare cuts would lead to 200,000 more working households in poverty by 2020

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:22 pm

Nothing new here, but on the strength of the 6 and 10 o'clock news, the BBC is monumentally fucked. Sorry for the swearing, but it really has boiled my piss beyond endurance.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:27 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Nothing new here, but on the strength of the 6 and 10 o'clock news, the BBC is monumentally fucked. Sorry for the swearing, but it really has boiled my piss beyond endurance.

Gave up on it, years ago.

Which is why I'm mystified to be told that I care about media management more than proper opposition.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:You know, I walked away from this place because I was sick of listening to the non-stop hate campaign led by TechnicalEphemera who is oh so certain of what the future will hold, all those years into the future. I came back to listen and I'm still getting it. It's boring as hell, it's anti-democratic - he got elected on an overwhelming margin but, as Seumas Milne put it, some establishment elements in Britisgh politics don't care a fig for democracy if it doesn't produce the result they approve of - and I'm sick of listening to you.

So hail and farewell to those with an open mind who don't believe they know everything about the future, and may those w hose minds are closed get the biggest comeuppance going. I shalln't be reading any more of it.
Don't know if you'll read this, hope you do, and reply.

It's precisely the democratic verdict TE is worried about. And I am, if Corbyn is still leader in 2020. I don't know if he'll even win back much of Scotland- the SNP don't seem "rattled". They're saying that he has little chance in England, so independence is all the more necessary.

It could all work well though- he re-energizes everybody, oversees debate and a successor emerges who can take it on.

What 'democratic verdict' - there is nothing democratic about how British Governments are chosen really is there.

We have a man who is running around making changes to our society based on 24% of the eligible vote - even only 37% of those who voted...compared to 30% for Labour. A grand total of 7 people in 100 voted Tory over Labour

They won because the LD vote collapsed to the Tories, the 'left-wing' SNP took Scotland and Middle-England was as ignorant as always. This with the bias of the press and the character assassination of Miliband as well.

I agree that we need to fight and continue fighting and also that Corbyn may not be able to lead us to victory but he is what we have - and he is so much better than Cameron

I wish we had the charismatic leader of the left that you talk about....but who was this person in the recent elections? Was that Corbyn's fault, or the left of the party? I don't think so!

I come back to my main point of the day - we have a PM who is a serial liar. Unless the press goes for him on it then he will get away with it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:29 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: I want "real opposition". This isn't it.
You want media relations. That's not opposition.
Are you referring to what I said about how he answered that Trident question?

Make sure you tackle Trident when you want. Don't let a fall out with your shadow minister get all the headlines on the last day of your conference when you can be announcing populist stuff.

Perhaps said minister should shut up!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:30 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ew-figures

Cameron's 'assault on poverty' pledge undone by new figures
Resolution Foundation report says planned welfare cuts would lead to 200,000 more working households in poverty by 2020

Haven't they defined away relative poverty anyway?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:32 pm

An article on academies and free schools from...where else...Manchester.

Free schools and academies: We cut through the confusion of the ever-changing world of education

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... h-10209066

And look here...

What is an academy?
Academies are publicly-funded independent schools which receive their money directly from government instead of the local council.

Although the day-to-day running of the school remains with the head teacher or principal, they are overseen by individual charitable bodies called academy trusts and may be part of a multi-academy chain.

Oh.

What happened to the "shackles of the local authority" that the nice Mr Cameron was talking about in Manchester today?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:33 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: You want media relations. That's not opposition.
Are you referring to what I said about how he answered that Trident question?

Make sure you tackle Trident when you want. Don't let a fall out with your shadow minister get all the headlines on the last day of your conference when you can be announcing populist stuff.
Perhaps said minister should shut up!

Indeed, but that doesn't exactly get Corbyn off the hook either.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:41 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Well what do you want then? Opposition takes place in parliament and on the ground. What's been happening today is in the media. How else do you propose Corbyn responds to Cameron's conference speech than by a statement released to the media? Apparently speeches to large crowds aren't it, so what is?

Corbyn has quickly switched the position of the parliamentary party from craven triangulation on issues like social security to total opposition. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking for.

Corbyn prominently, in his own voice, in the media responding to Cameron on that piece of bollocks. Would have cheered people on the ground too. They aren't mutually exclusive.

He hasn't changed any policy yet. If you want to mention social security, he unilaterally changed it in a speech to the TUC (where he already had plenty to say) and the shadow spokesman contradicted him. Same with Trident.

You don't have to be rightwing or superficial to think it's a shambles.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:47 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Which led to him losing a no confidence vote http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3225127.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot00848.jpg

And this is the man who said to an ITN reporter at the Conservative Conference, yesterday, asked what advice he would give the current crop of leadership contenders following their speeches, "A little less 'leadership,' a little more delivery!" - as if he'd ever delivered anything, other than during his days as an army errand-boy... Odious little prig.

(Oh shit, I think there might have been a terrible spelling mistake in Lord Ashcroft' & Ms. Oakeshott's recently serialised book... And now I need to wash my brain out...)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:49 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:You know, I walked away from this place because I was sick of listening to the non-stop hate campaign led by TechnicalEphemera who is oh so certain of what the future will hold, all those years into the future. I came back to listen and I'm still getting it. It's boring as hell, it's anti-democratic - he got elected on an overwhelming margin but, as Seumas Milne put it, some establishment elements in Britisgh politics don't care a fig for democracy if it doesn't produce the result they approve of - and I'm sick of listening to you.

So hail and farewell to those with an open mind who don't believe they know everything about the future, and may those w hose minds are closed get the biggest comeuppance going. I shalln't be reading any more of it.
Don't know if you'll read this, hope you do, and reply.

It's precisely the democratic verdict TE is worried about. And I am, if Corbyn is still leader in 2020. I don't know if he'll even win back much of Scotland- the SNP don't seem "rattled". They're saying that he has little chance in England, so independence is all the more necessary.

It could all work well though- he re-energizes everybody, oversees debate and a successor emerges who can take it on.

What 'democratic verdict' - there is nothing democratic about how British Governments are chosen really is there.

We have a man who is running around making changes to our society based on 24% of the eligible vote - even only 37% of those who voted...compared to 30% for Labour. A grand total of 7 people in 100 voted Tory over Labour

They won because the LD vote collapsed to the Tories, the 'left-wing' SNP took Scotland and Middle-England was as ignorant as always. This with the bias of the press and the character assassination of Miliband as well.

I agree that we need to fight and continue fighting and also that Corbyn may not be able to lead us to victory but he is what we have - and he is so much better than Cameron

I wish we had the charismatic leader of the left that you talk about....but who was this person in the recent elections? Was that Corbyn's fault, or the left of the party? I don't think so!

I come back to my main point of the day - we have a PM who is a serial liar. Unless the press goes for him on it then he will get away with it.

Not blaming Corbyn or the left for the result. Clearer, more left policy on eg austerity, working poverty would have probably been very useful.

If Corbyn's leading in 2020, he'll get my strong support. There isn't an obvious successor though. That might change- I reckon the leadership is waiting on a plate for a figure from the Labour PLP mainstream who flogs their guts out for Corbyn.

It could work out very well.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:50 pm

"Thick as mince" latest:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:57 pm

Seeingclearly wrote an excellent, long post up yonder, thank you.

I love you all a lot and thank you for the intelligent commentary from all here.
I take a step back, reflect and come back to post or not.

Corbyn did speak to thousands, Tubby Isaacs, and cheered people on the ground.
I can't agree with your calling Labour a 'shambles'.

The Tory conference was stunningly awful - it's not reasonable leadership.
Off-putting is a mild word for the speeches given.

Goodnight, friends.
Thank you for your continued patience with me.

love,
cJA

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:58 pm

In a speech that frequently attacked Labour, Cameron said: “Labour: you’re not for working people, but hurting people.

“If you want a lecture about poverty, ask Labour. If you want something done about it, come to us, the Conservatives. There’s another argument we need to win.”

This is hubristic, surely?

At the time of the Poll Tax, they worried about "bills hitting the mats" just before local elections.

Tax credit cuts hit just before local and Welsh elections. If paid monthly, the first payslip with the cuts in them will "hit the mat" about 10 days before.

Not that they really care about doing well in Wales. More useful to have Labour in power there to lie about.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:05 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
In a speech that frequently attacked Labour, Cameron said: “Labour: you’re not for working people, but hurting people.

“If you want a lecture about poverty, ask Labour. If you want something done about it, come to us, the Conservatives. There’s another argument we need to win.”
This is hubristic, surely?

At the time of the Poll Tax, they worried about "bills hitting the mats" just before local elections.

Tax credit cuts hit just before local and Welsh elections. If paid monthly, the first payslip with the cuts in them will "hit the mat" about 10 days before.

Not that they really care about doing well in Wales. More useful to have Labour in power there to lie about.

I guess they are gambling on people just shrugging their shoulders and lumping it, or perhaps not enough of them vote to offset the apparent popularity of continuing to slash benefits.

I would have thought that withdrawing so much money from a section of society that rarely has the luxury of saving risks a full on recession.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:08 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:In this country the chancellor deemed it OK to park in a disabled spot while nipping in to McDonalds,. In Russia they use holograms to warn others from doing so

This Looks Like a Handicap Spot. And It Is. But Try to Park In It and… Pure Genius!

http://omeleto.com/216671/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Utter genius! Well found, @Toby

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:24 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/10/ ... d=tw-share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Former IMF Chief Economist backs "People 's QE"

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:26 pm

frightful_oik wrote:Perhaps it should be borne in mind that the press and bulletins will be full of sycophantic bullshit. Tomorrow is the start of 'politics as normal' again.

Teggies now fixed if anyone cares. Look!

They look marvellous, m'dear! I hope @howsilly will get at least as good a dentist as yours - even though the cost might be rather more where she is...

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:26 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:In this country the chancellor deemed it OK to park in a disabled spot while nipping in to McDonalds,. In Russia they use holograms to warn others from doing so

This Looks Like a Handicap Spot. And It Is. But Try to Park In It and… Pure Genius!

http://omeleto.com/216671/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Utter genius! Well found, @Toby

Very very clever. Thanks.

Now if they added a low frequency comms uplink the hologram could also have summoned a drone to graffiti their car for them.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:27 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ew-figures

Cameron's 'assault on poverty' pledge undone by new figures
Resolution Foundation report says planned welfare cuts would lead to 200,000 more working households in poverty by 2020

I dread to think what Cameron's 'something special' means , or what moving into the light could entail. I do know he cannot with current policies deliver on any of the things he promises in this speech, the fairer mor cohesive society isn't just going to happen. Reading between the lines he sounds like a bit of a demagogue, chivying us all into this Tory world of delight. A one party state perhaps? He should be so lucky, I credit British people as having a bit more about them than that, and Manchester gives me hope. As do doctors and other workers who make our world go round, keep things in some kind of orbit at least. In spite of all the destruction. As for poverty, relative or otherwise, four million at a very optimistic calculation going by those figures. Nearly double it, say 7 million at a guess, because my definition of poverty is when your outgoing are so much more than your in comings that your savings if you ever had any are gone, and with them your personal safety net. Then shoes for your kids become unaffordable, bills go unpaid and at a very rough guess, unless you have friends or family who can bail you out you've got about six weeks till it all falls apart. And while things might look rosy in London, elsewhere they aren't.

So Cameron's vision is of a land that doesn't and won't exist. Anyone who buys into it is pretty naive. And if he thinks the hatred he and his media pals have stirred up, and which was so visible this week in his own ministers speeches, then his delusions are worse than we could imagine. Unless of course he knows he's fucked up badly, there's loads of unintentional effects of his failure to control his ministers, and he's now just playing for time.

But poverty kicks at the doors of many people these days, I'm not sure they'll be watching his antics kindly, Manchester didn't. Someone said they've been badly hit there, everyone knows someone or is someone who has lost out badly in this bonfire of dreams. It's the same here, and it affects even those who haven't felt it directly. Because of empathy friendship 'we feeling' and so on. The stuff than makes s human.

The truth is there is no assault on poverty, there's a well directed and continuous assault on people's lives. It's tipping into indecency these days.

Thanks for all your posts, A. I'm glad you are still here. I'm glad often of your anger, but also you, just as you are. It's a given of the nest that everyone's voice is unique. I'm close to being at the point that poverty hits, PIP is starting to loom, I'm harbouring a young 'un on my pension. And what dreams anyway these days, except that sanity might return. Against my early instincts n Labours new leader, I'm quietly encouraged by the idea of him as a man who might view his party more like an orchestra than a conscripted army. It's going to take time for people to realise they are not just there to play their own tune. I was also encouraged by his reference to Ed during his conference speech. It gave me the impression he is looking to place people in holes into which they will fit well.

My best to you.