Friday 16th October 2015

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:13 pm

yahyah wrote:Apologies for taking umbrage while complaining about someone else taking umbrage at other comments.

It's all that vick !!!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:23 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:What's the betting that the woman in question has fully bought into the deeply mendacious "government finances work in exactly the same way as that of a household" meme?

Quite high, I would say.

Along with not refuting "the mess we inherited" from the outset, Labour's biggest mistake under Ed was allowing this misconception to go mostly unchallenged. And certain people in the party, shamefully, actually buying into it themselves - and Harman made one of these acting Shadow Chancellor!
Indeed. Which is why Blanchflower etc need to get as much air time as possible. When can we expect Stiglitz on Question Time?

Doing what's best for me and my family isn't the easiest thing to calculate when you take into account health and local government spending. From a purely income tax point of view of my family I should be voting Tory. But why would I want to have a bigger slice of the pie if it reduces others measly portions to crumbs?

'what's in it for me.'
In my younger days my dad always used to say that as soon as most people started to make better money, they voted Conservative because it meant they'd keep more of it.

Never thought I'd see the day, but it was more straightforward then.
The Tories stressing scroungers and strivers have muddied the waters. It was clever and entirely intentional because this lot have far fewer scruples than their forebears.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:25 pm

St Sturgeon not as up on all things Scottish as you'd expect her to be.

From the Press Association:

''A surprise quiz on Scottish heritage left Nicola Sturgeon spluttering.

The first minister started strongly when she was posed a series of questions live on the BBC - boasting she could “name them all” when it came to the Broon family of comic strip legend.

But the SNP leader said she was “never going to live it down” when she hesitated to get beyond one member of the Lisbon Lions - the Celtic team that won the European Cup in the Portuguese capital in 1967.

She badly underestimated the £1.30 cover price of the Scotsman newspaper - explaining that she read it online and declaring that her guess of 45p was what “it should be”.

She was not able to identify a Hawick Ball as a boiled sweet - though her suggestion it was a “rugby” thing may have shown she was aware they were a favourite of legendary commentator Bill McLaren.

But she entirely drew a blank when it came to the profession of Hamish MacInnes - a famous mountaineer.

As the interview with BBC News assistant political editor Norman Smith went on, she conceded she “should know” the name of the first Scot to be prime minister of the UK - adding that that’s not the name that was running around my brain” when told the answer was Lord John Stewart.
“
However she was able to name the three “Js” associated with Dundee - jute, jam and journalism.

And she gave what appeared to be the correct answer - Dr No - when asked what the first Bond film was to star Sean Connery - despite being told it was Thunderball.''

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:28 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Apologies for taking umbrage while complaining about someone else taking umbrage at other comments.

It's all that vick !!!

I knew I shouldn't have eaten it

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:28 pm

yahyah wrote:St Sturgeon not as up on all things Scottish as you'd expect her to be.

From the Press Association:

''A surprise quiz on Scottish heritage left Nicola Sturgeon spluttering.

The first minister started strongly when she was posed a series of questions live on the BBC - boasting she could “name them all” when it came to the Broon family of comic strip legend.

But the SNP leader said she was “never going to live it down” when she hesitated to get beyond one member of the Lisbon Lions - the Celtic team that won the European Cup in the Portuguese capital in 1967.

She badly underestimated the £1.30 cover price of the Scotsman newspaper - explaining that she read it online and declaring that her guess of 45p was what “it should be”.

She was not able to identify a Hawick Ball as a boiled sweet - though her suggestion it was a “rugby” thing may have shown she was aware they were a favourite of legendary commentator Bill McLaren.

But she entirely drew a blank when it came to the profession of Hamish MacInnes - a famous mountaineer.

As the interview with BBC News assistant political editor Norman Smith went on, she conceded she “should know” the name of the first Scot to be prime minister of the UK - adding that that’s not the name that was running around my brain” when told the answer was Lord John Stewart.
“
However she was able to name the three “Js” associated with Dundee - jute, jam and journalism.

And she gave what appeared to be the correct answer - Dr No - when asked what the first Bond film was to star Sean Connery - despite being told it was Thunderball.''

Ah, to think the abuse Brown would've got with that set of answers....

minch · Post by **minch** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:31 pm

In case this hasn't been posted.

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Nice to know that the Conservatives are all united.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:42 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:What's the betting that the woman in question has fully bought into the deeply mendacious "government finances work in exactly the same way as that of a household" meme?

Quite high, I would say.

Along with not refuting "the mess we inherited" from the outset, Labour's biggest mistake under Ed was allowing this misconception to go mostly unchallenged. And certain people in the party, shamefully, actually buying into it themselves - and Harman made one of these acting Shadow Chancellor!
Indeed. Which is why Blanchflower etc need to get as much air time as possible. When can we expect Stiglitz on Question Time?

Doing what's best for me and my family isn't the easiest thing to calculate when you take into account health and local government spending. From a purely income tax point of view of my family I should be voting Tory. But why would I want to have a bigger slice of the pie if it reduces others measly portions to crumbs?
'what's in it for me.'
In my younger days my dad always used to say that as soon as most people started to make better money, they voted Conservative because it meant they'd keep more of it.

Never thought I'd see the day, but it was more straightforward then.
The Tories stressing scroungers and strivers have muddied the waters. It was clever and entirely intentional because this lot have far fewer scruples than their forebears.

My father-in-law was a weaver, a skilled job that required night school training, making huge cruise liner carpets for Crossleys at the vast Dean Clough mill in Halifax.

He earned a good salary, but used to get cross at workmates who, in his words, bought a car and a chintz sofa and then started voting Tory.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:02 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: Indeed. Which is why Blanchflower etc need to get as much air time as possible. When can we expect Stiglitz on Question Time?

Doing what's best for me and my family isn't the easiest thing to calculate when you take into account health and local government spending. From a purely income tax point of view of my family I should be voting Tory. But why would I want to have a bigger slice of the pie if it reduces others measly portions to crumbs?
'what's in it for me.'
In my younger days my dad always used to say that as soon as most people started to make better money, they voted Conservative because it meant they'd keep more of it.

Never thought I'd see the day, but it was more straightforward then.
The Tories stressing scroungers and strivers have muddied the waters. It was clever and entirely intentional because this lot have far fewer scruples than their forebears.

My father-in-law was a weaver, a skilled job that required night school training, making huge cruise liner carpets for Crossleys at the vast Dean Clough mill in Halifax.

He earned a good salary, but used to get cross at workmates who, in his words, bought a car and a chintz sofa and then started voting Tory.

After my grandfather was blacklisted at the Thames docks because of his union activities he retrained as a baker and became a master baker at RHM, got to know the Rank family on a social level ......

To his dying day he was scathing about anybody who voted Tory, and tore a strip off my mother when he found she had done so.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:05 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I mentioned it to Owen Jones, although i don't think i was chastising. i can't get to grips with how working people such as this lady could trust the malicious bastards. Maybe better political education is the key.

ScreenShot00867.jpg
More to the point, I struggle to understand why anyone would believe anything Cameron says at election time after "no more top down re-organisation of the NHS". This woman actively voted for 12bn welfare cuts. Even people who don't pay attention couldn't have missed the "1930s spending levels" warning after Osborne's autumn statement. She knew someone would suffer when she put her x in the Tory box. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for her and a belated enlightenment is better than no enlightenment at all, but I feel a lot more sorry for those people who didn't vote Tory who are about to lose out from the tax credit cuts.
Thanking you for the balance there Willow. But - again from door knocking - people could and did miss the '1930s spending levels' warning. I never once encountered anyone who had heard or got that one ... but I certainly heard the Labour chaos, wrecked the economy stuff. The media was so full of that - and I am also aware that many voters in certain areas got targeted messages / missives from CCHQ that we never saw.

I have someone in my own close family who does not watch, read, or listen to, anything news-, politics-, or current-affairs-related. She was almost oblivious to the entire election campaign.

Shit! Tata Steel are to shed 1200 jobs in Scunthorpe and Scotland!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:12 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: Indeed. Which is why Blanchflower etc need to get as much air time as possible. When can we expect Stiglitz on Question Time?

Doing what's best for me and my family isn't the easiest thing to calculate when you take into account health and local government spending. From a purely income tax point of view of my family I should be voting Tory. But why would I want to have a bigger slice of the pie if it reduces others measly portions to crumbs?
'what's in it for me.'
In my younger days my dad always used to say that as soon as most people started to make better money, they voted Conservative because it meant they'd keep more of it.

Never thought I'd see the day, but it was more straightforward then.
The Tories stressing scroungers and strivers have muddied the waters. It was clever and entirely intentional because this lot have far fewer scruples than their forebears.

My father-in-law was a weaver, a skilled job that required night school training, making huge cruise liner carpets for Crossleys at the vast Dean Clough mill in Halifax.

He earned a good salary, but used to get cross at workmates who, in his words, bought a car and a chintz sofa and then started voting Tory.

Denying our roots. Never could understand it because it makes us what we are.
Although if you've hated your childhood for whatever reason, I suppose you'd not want to do anything that was reminiscent of then. Even voting patterns might be affected.

I've been re-writing and updating a series of stories about the area I lived in as a child, for a guy in Australia who is running a nostalgia site. He'd only lived in Coley for a while but as he was getting on was keen to learn more about it...

I recieved a letter from a man that remembered me although I couldn't remember him. He'd done well and was a retired headmaster. He said he'd hated every single aspect of his life and couldn't wait to get out, whilst I and others who've been in touch with me since the articles were posted, know we had hard lives compared to many, but the memories were still good.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:16 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Apologies for taking umbrage while complaining about someone else taking umbrage at other comments.

It's all that vick !!!
I knew I shouldn't have eaten it

Off topic but have you tried Olbas Oil...A few dabs on your nightwear so the fumes can be breathed in works well...And it's not as mucky as Vick. Although having it rubbed into my chest and back is one of my most comforting childhood memories.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:24 pm

Willow904 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ly-deleted
Information provided by alleged child abuse victims to the overarching inquiry set up by Theresa May has been deleted due to a blunder, it has emerged.

Submissions sent through an online form to the inquiry between 14 September and 2 October were “instantly and permanently deleted” on Thursday before they reached staff.
Such sloppiness doesn't engender a great deal of confidence, does it?

It happened when they changed the website (name& ?) address, apparently. And it appears that they had no back-ups of any type anywhere - probably for 'security & privacy reasons'...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:35 pm

Steve Bell........

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... um-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:42 pm

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 6 mins6 minutes ago

Jeremy Corbyn's started doing weekly updates from his front room. Lot less slick than Miliband-era, a bit more human

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0BcXYf6Kg

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:47 pm

Ian Mearns MP ‏@IanMearnsMP 10 secs11 seconds ago

Minister for Northern Poorhouse reckons 2000 "people stood on a beach are not going to help the situation" Shameful!

That may or may not be true, but it's 2,000 people who probably won't be voting Tory.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 3:51 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 6 mins6 minutes ago

Jeremy Corbyn's started doing weekly updates from his front room. Lot less slick than Miliband-era, a bit more human

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0BcXYf6Kg

Jeremy Corbyn MPVerified account
‏@jeremycorbyn
Watch my round-up of an eventful week, from Tory u-turn on #Saudi prison contract to #BlackHistoryMonth in Bristol " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 4:21 pm

Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 4:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 6 mins6 minutes ago

Jeremy Corbyn's started doing weekly updates from his front room. Lot less slick than Miliband-era, a bit more human

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0BcXYf6Kg

That's a lovely watch. Thanks Ohso.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 4:57 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 6 mins6 minutes ago

Jeremy Corbyn's started doing weekly updates from his front room. Lot less slick than Miliband-era, a bit more human

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0BcXYf6Kg
That's a lovely watch. Thanks Ohso.

My sister had posted it on her face book page, I watched it on there, and then I found a mention of it on Twitter.

It really is a new way of politics isn't it...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:04 pm

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2m2 minutes ago
Scot Govt ready to consider direct intervention to keep Scot steel plants going while search for a buyer

Do you remember when Osborne promised he would rebalance the economy - so we would be an economy built on the 'makers'? Remember that? In a month when we've had the liquidation of several big renewable energy companies (with the potential for 27,000 job losses in that sector as a result of government policy) followed by Redcar steel closing - and now the Tata steel works in Scunthorpe and Scotland - will Osborne still be crowing about his long term economic plan and his industrial strategy destined to give us 'security'?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.

Hasten to add. It isn't a nasty 'don't have sympathy with her', but it is exasperated.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:06 pm

James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 26m26 minutes ago
Tory whips sending out messages telling MPs what 2 say 2 their constituents this weekend, is all about 'greater security for working people'

Brass neck doesn't begin to cover it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:09 pm

Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 3h3 hours ago
Peter McKelvie to quit UK child abuse inquiry after "conflict of interest" concerns. Statement shortly #Goddard

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:15 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2m2 minutes ago
Scot Govt ready to consider direct intervention to keep Scot steel plants going while search for a buyer
Do you remember when Osborne promised he would rebalance the economy - so we would be an economy built on the 'makers'? Remember that? In a month when we've had the liquidation of several big renewable energy companies (with the potential for 27,000 job losses in that sector as a result of government policy) followed by Redcar steel closing - and now the Tata steel works in Scunthorpe and Scotland - will Osborne still be crowing about his long term economic plan and his industrial strategy destined to give us 'security'?

They might consider it but I bet they don't do it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:27 pm

Landlord Tory MP Philip Davies says UK law requiring homes be fit for human habitation is an unnecessary burden
Philip Davies says the law would put a 'huge burden' on landlords and that it can be hard to keep up with regulation
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 96931.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a day when we might have thought the Tories might try to lay low and not expose their nastiness any more than absolutely necessary ... here's Philip Davies lowering himself to the occasion.

You might even think this means he doesn't consider tenants to be human ....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:29 pm

Suddenly wondered how long ago Tax Credits were introduced?

I have a feeling a lot of the problems stem from the fact they've been in place long enough that the younger generation takes them for granted. Rather like they do the NHS. For them it's 'always' been there.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:32 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.

They used to call Britain a nation of shopkeepers.
Now it's a nation of self employed nail 'technicians', zero hours workers and call centre staff.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:40 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.
Hasten to add. It isn't a nasty 'don't have sympathy with her', but it is exasperated.
Thing is, I think Owen Jones is right about this. There are people like this now realising they have made a terrible mistake, and the worst thing anyone on the left can do now is kick people when they are down, or even wag a finger, say 'we told you so'. People who voted Tory aren't all evil, selfish or stupid. Many just bought into the stuff that was rammed down everyone's throats for the entire five years, and now realise it was all rubbish. These are the people Labour needs to convince in order to win in 2020. We need to be saying to them that we understand, but believe there is a better way.

Well, of course.

I should think that what we say here is not what we would say to people if we were, say, canvassing, or in any other way trying to win people over.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:44 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.
Hasten to add. It isn't a nasty 'don't have sympathy with her', but it is exasperated.
Thing is, I think Owen Jones is right about this. There are people like this now realising they have made a terrible mistake, and the worst thing anyone on the left can do now is kick people when they are down, or even wag a finger, say 'we told you so'. People who voted Tory aren't all evil, selfish or stupid. Many just bought into the stuff that was rammed down everyone's throats for the entire five years, and now realise it was all rubbish. These are the people Labour needs to convince in order to win in 2020. We need to be saying to them that we understand, but believe there is a better way.

Part of that better way is putting it to people that it isn't just about them and their individual circumstances.

I get what you mean, and think it is laudable, but if people only ever vote for their own pockets - that seems to me entirely depressing.

Just patting them on the heads, saying there there, we're hear to listen to you - metaphorically speaking, means they don't have to really change.

All actions have consequences, voting Tory is something people need to accept responsibility for.
Doesn't mean bashing them, but not cuddling them and saying 'there, there it wasn't your fault' either.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:45 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Just thinking about the Tory voter in tears.
Just read on Twitter that she does nails from her home and relies entirely on tax credits to survive. Haven't ascertained that for sure yet, but it doesn't change my views.

Have to confess I don't have a lot of sympathy with her especially as she's in the age group most likely to use social media.
She evidently hadn't availed herself of any of the political postings, didn't use Twitter, or if she did didn't follow anyone remotely polticial, or only followed Tories.
Or, she'd been relying on the BBC for her in depth, who to vote for information [in which case I'm just surprised she didn't vote UKIP.]
Finally, that like LadyCenturia's relative, she didn't follow the news in any form, has no interest in it. [So why bother to vote?]
Not once did Cameron or any Tory say where the cuts were going to come from...Given that the media played that down, in that case didn't she even stop to wonder if it might affect her tax credits so better to steer clear?

I wonder what she based her choice on. Or who? Puzzling. And fascinating. Perhaps someone from Labour should get her to do a questionairre.
Hasten to add. It isn't a nasty 'don't have sympathy with her', but it is exasperated.
Thing is, I think Owen Jones is right about this. There are people like this now realising they have made a terrible mistake, and the worst thing anyone on the left can do now is kick people when they are down, or even wag a finger, say 'we told you so'. People who voted Tory aren't all evil, selfish or stupid. Many just bought into the stuff that was rammed down everyone's throats for the entire five years, and now realise it was all rubbish. These are the people Labour needs to convince in order to win in 2020. We need to be saying to them that we understand, but believe there is a better way.

But how do you convince them? Some of them show the most appalling ignorance and or selfishness.
I can't see how patting them on the head and saying 'never mind. Join the Labour Party, we'll look after you' is going to work.

I hate to say it, but I'm afraid a lot of them are going to have to suffer - badly - before they change their political persuasion or at least become better aquainted with policies so they are capable of making the right choice for their situation.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:49 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Landlord Tory MP Philip Davies says UK law requiring homes be fit for human habitation is an unnecessary burden
Philip Davies says the law would put a 'huge burden' on landlords and that it can be hard to keep up with regulation
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 96931.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On a day when we might have thought the Tories might try to lay low and not expose their nastiness any more than absolutely necessary ... here's Philip Davies lowering himself to the occasion.

You might even think this means he doesn't consider tenants to be human ....

He went on and on and on about 'people who, like him, are accidental-landlords struggling to comply with ever-changing laws and regulations' and then launched into a deep and detailed history of 'fit for human habitation' in legislation and what might have been understood by the term in different era...

Fortunately, Ms. Buck's Bill will receive its Second Reading on December the Fourth. I expect that P Davies and his fellow filibusters will have started carefully preparing their attempts on the World Record for Longest Speech, replete with Historic References, and complete with artfully-co-ordinated interventions, as I type.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:52 pm

Criminal court charges leave me no choice but to resign as a magistrate
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/oct ... magistrate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Criminal court charges disproportionately punish the poorest in our community. Those who cannot pay for a TV licence, a train ticket, or previous fines. Simultaneously, jobcentres are sanctioning people’s benefits lasting for anything up to three years without a fair trial. These charges undermine the right to a fair trial, putting pressure on people to plead guilty for fear of the costs. They limit our ability to impose fines, prosecution costs and rightful compensation. They’ve reduced the discretion magistrates should possess to sentence based on individual circumstances. I believe they are unworkable and will cost more to recover (and remit) than they are worth.

We've just lost a stonking good magistrate by the sound of this letter.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:54 pm

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 27m27 minutes ago
Important piece by @martin_hickman on the background to the @tom_watson onslaught http://www.martin-hickman.com/tom-watso ... -hunt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 5:56 pm

yahyah wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: Hasten to add. It isn't a nasty 'don't have sympathy with her', but it is exasperated.
Thing is, I think Owen Jones is right about this. There are people like this now realising they have made a terrible mistake, and the worst thing anyone on the left can do now is kick people when they are down, or even wag a finger, say 'we told you so'. People who voted Tory aren't all evil, selfish or stupid. Many just bought into the stuff that was rammed down everyone's throats for the entire five years, and now realise it was all rubbish. These are the people Labour needs to convince in order to win in 2020. We need to be saying to them that we understand, but believe there is a better way.

Part of that better way is putting it to people that it isn't just about them and their individual circumstances.

I get what you mean, and think it is laudable, but if people only ever vote for their own pockets - that seems to me entirely depressing.

Just patting them on the heads, saying there there, we're hear to listen to you - metaphorically speaking, means they don't have to really change.

All actions have consequences, voting Tory is something people need to accept responsibility for.
Doesn't mean bashing them, but not cuddling them and saying 'there, there it wasn't your fault' either.

Exactly. There's no point in any of it if we can't make people realise that they are voting\have voted against their own, and many others', interests (preferably by not scorning or crowing - but a certain degree of "you've learnt your lesson the hard way, so wake up" has to be appropriate).

Edited

Sodding, bloody brackets.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:04 pm

Cameron and Thatcher aide Patrick Rock's trial date was set today when he appeared at Southwark Crown Court.

He won't stand trial until May 30th 2016.
He denies six counts of making indecent images of children, and one count of possessing 62 indecent images of children. They are alleged to be category C, considered less serious.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:05 pm

Was in my bank today and overheard a couple complaining / enquiring about a text they had been sent by the bank asking them to comment on the service they had received earlier on that day. The man was saying he was very surprised to suddenly get a text from the bank - he had had no prior notice of this kind of action - didn't know if it was genuine or a phishing type exercise to engage him - and he couldn't understand what on earth the bank hoped to gain from this.

Blow me down ... it was genuine. The woman at the counter said it was something Lloyds had introduced as a random sampling of how customers were treated when they used the bank. She didn't seem to understand why the 'customer' was annoyed and discomfited by the experience. Surely it's not beyond bank staff to put themselves in the shoes of their customers and imagine if they would want that kind of unsolicited intrusion? The guy was very worried that there might have been some kind of unusual attack on his account. They left dissatisfied with the service they had received - possibly undoing any good service they had received earlier.

I heard a consumer programme the other day posing the idea that there ought to be a strict code for banks to follow re how they interact with customers - to ensure greater security for all concerned. I hate getting phone calls purporting to be from my bank and will never engage with them.

All this prompted by spotting the G story on how much banks have actually reformed since the financial crash ... and how Osborne is allowing them to row back on a lot of the tightening up. No surprise there then.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:13 pm

It'll be interesting to see if the BBC & Sky report Rock's court appearance and setting of trial date.

Suppose as they can't use it to bash Tom Watson, it'll be ignored.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:18 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Suddenly wondered how long ago Tax Credits were introduced?

I have a feeling a lot of the problems stem from the fact they've been in place long enough that the younger generation takes them for granted. Rather like they do the NHS. For them it's 'always' been there.

They've existed in some form for ages, but big expansion was 2003 or thereabouts.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:19 pm

Just checked the Court News website twitter feed to see if they had reported on Rock.

They do seem to be rather tabloid-ish judging by their tweets

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK 3h3 hours ago
Romanian allegedly caught masturbating in Top Shop explains that he did have a hole in his pocket - but did not put his penis in the hole

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK 5h5 hours ago
Gym Peeping Tom used his phone as a 'periscope of perversion.'

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK Oct 15
Johnny Briggs' daughter terrorised by a conjurer who sang the 'Winnie the Pooh' theme down the telephone to her in the early hours.

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK Oct 15
Cross dressing trespasser crept into woman's flat wearing nothing but fishnet stockings and a g-string

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:23 pm

PorFavor wrote:I've been reading, over at the Guardian's Politics Live, about the SNP conference and fracking. I firmly believe that Labour should go hard on (anti) fracking. Labour's own "project fear". I think it's a subject that reaches to people across the political divide. Water, property rights, safety - you name it.

On the other hand it's potentially very beneficial for poor, fairly empty areas ("the desolate North East") and it is very hard to get well-paid jobs that aren't basically government funded into places like that.

The SNP were in favour of it (at the indyref, they just distinguished themselves for having better regulation than rUK) and only banned it when Labour (who said they'd "stop" it and didn't) forced a vote.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:24 pm

My take on the 2015 election remains the same as in May. I'm not saying that any individuals said this, but I feel the electorate said

We still don't trust Labour, we haven't been inspired by Miliband, Clegg is a complete waste of space and so our best option is to give the Tories a chance to have another go but with no excuses this time - it can't be Labour's fault or Clegg's fault any more.

And the woman from Kent is in accord with this. She knows now that it really isn't Labour's fault, or Clegg's or indeed Sturgeon's. It's Cameron and he's in the firing line.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:26 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I've been reading, over at the Guardian's Politics Live, about the SNP conference and fracking. I firmly believe that Labour should go hard on (anti) fracking. Labour's own "project fear". I think it's a subject that reaches to people across the political divide. Water, property rights, safety - you name it.
On the other hand it's potentially very beneficial for poor, fairly empty areas ("the desolate North East") and it is very hard to get well-paid jobs that aren't basically government funded into places like that.

The SNP were in favour of it (at the indyref, they just distinguished themselves for having better regulation than rUK) and only banned it when Labour (who said they'd "stop" it and didn't) forced a vote.

The Labour amendment that passed on this was incredibly sensible but was overturned in the Lords, to the Coalition's great shame. Labour should dust it down and try again. It didn't say no fracking ever, but was very tough.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:30 pm

yahyah wrote:Just checked the Court News website twitter feed to see if they had reported on Rock.

They do seem to be rather tabloid-ish judging by their tweets

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK 3h3 hours ago
Romanian allegedly caught masturbating in Top Shop explains that he did have a hole in his pocket - but did not put his penis in the hole

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK 5h5 hours ago
Gym Peeping Tom used his phone as a 'periscope of perversion.'

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK Oct 15
Johnny Briggs' daughter terrorised by a conjurer who sang the 'Winnie the Pooh' theme down the telephone to her in the early hours.

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK Oct 15
Cross dressing trespasser crept into woman's flat wearing nothing but fishnet stockings and a g-string

Now I have to clean my keyboard

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:30 pm

Any hydraulic fracturing activity can not take place:
(a) unless an environmental impact assessment has been carried out;
(b) unless independent inspections are carried out of the integrity of wells used;
(c) unless monitoring has been undertaken on the site over the previous 12 month period;
(d) unless site-by-site measurement, monitoring and public disclosure of existing and future fugitive emissions is carried out;
(e) in land which is located within the boundary of a groundwater source protection zone;
(f) within or under protected areas;
(g) in deep-level land at depths of less than 1,000 metres;
(h) unless planning authorities have considered the cumulative impact of hydraulic fracturing activities in the local area;
(i) unless a provision is made for community benefit schemes to be provided by companies engaged in the extraction of gas and oil rock;
(j) unless residents in the affected area are notified on an individual basis;
(k) unless substances used are subject to approval by the Environment Agency
(l) unless land is left in a condition required by the planning authority, and
(m) unless water companies are consulted by the planning authority.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:31 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 3h3 hours ago
Peter McKelvie to quit UK child abuse inquiry after "conflict of interest" concerns. Statement shortly #Goddard

His statement:

''STATEMENT FROM PETER MCKELVIE

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate for me to continue in my role as a member of the Victims and Survivors Consultative Panel VSCP on the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA).

I have today been advised that I am likely to be required as a witness in the Inquiry’s investigations, and that the Inquiry may need to examine my work in pursuing allegations of CSA. In those circumstances it would not be right for me to continue to act in a consultative capacity, providing advice to the Chair and the Inquiry Panel.''

He's one of the good guys.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:36 pm

Just seen this quote, attributed to Goebbels.

“Think of the press as a great keyboard
on which the government can play.''

Still true now.
Let's hope the results are never as bad as they were then.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:39 pm

yahyah wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 3h3 hours ago
Peter McKelvie to quit UK child abuse inquiry after "conflict of interest" concerns. Statement shortly #Goddard
His statement:

''STATEMENT FROM PETER MCKELVIE

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate for me to continue in my role as a member of the Victims and Survivors Consultative Panel VSCP on the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA).

I have today been advised that I am likely to be required as a witness in the Inquiry’s investigations, and that the Inquiry may need to examine my work in pursuing allegations of CSA. In those circumstances it would not be right for me to continue to act in a consultative capacity, providing advice to the Chair and the Inquiry Panel.''

He's one of the good guys.

I am almost back where I was with the earlier two attempts to set up this inquiry ... bafflement, disbelief and just not knowing what to think about something that seems utterly fated to seem incompetent and / or worse.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:46 pm

Then again, some people still believe that when a politician makes election promises they are telling the truth.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 6:51 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I've been reading, over at the Guardian's Politics Live, about the SNP conference and fracking. I firmly believe that Labour should go hard on (anti) fracking. Labour's own "project fear". I think it's a subject that reaches to people across the political divide. Water, property rights, safety - you name it.
On the other hand it's potentially very beneficial for poor, fairly empty areas ("the desolate North East") and it is very hard to get well-paid jobs that aren't basically government funded into places like that.

The SNP were in favour of it (at the indyref, they just distinguished themselves for having better regulation than rUK) and only banned it when Labour (who said they'd "stop" it and didn't) forced a vote.
The Labour amendment that passed on this was incredibly sensible but was overturned in the Lords, to the Coalition's great shame. Labour should dust it down and try again. It didn't say no fracking ever, but was very tough.

Cheers, thanks for posting it directly too.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 16 Oct, 2015 7:21 pm

stefanstern ‏@stefanstern 18m18 minutes ago
Authoritative take-down by @jolyonmaugham - Don't be fooled. The money is there to avoid cuts to tax credits http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/ec ... ax-credits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …