Monday 30th November 2015

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 2:10 am

Morning.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... _Hootsuite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Household bills targeted by chancellor as Labour raises fears over benefit cuts
George Osborne and Sajid Javid want more competition to drive down prices, as Labour claims thousands could lose out due to in-work benefit cuts

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 8:31 am

& how will those prices be driven down ?

Lower wages, worse employment conditions for workers, cheap imported goods sold as higher quality than they are, companies that try to reward their workers fairly pushed out of business in the race to the bottom ?

& Morning. A very sad one.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 8:38 am

After me moaning about them last week, Radio 4's Today are really pushing the Tory alleged criminality, sleaze and bullying this morning.

Much was made earlier about Feldman being Cameron's pal, and the lack of independence of the Tory investigation with Feldman's party workers gathering evidence.

Also, maybe some compensation for victims along the line...maybe the Tory party will have to pay it ?... for those who were allegedly tricked into sharing nude/sexualised pics/videos of themselves.
A court has just awarded a young woman £25,000 for being forced into 'sexting' by a repulsive individual who was actually responsible for child protection at her special needs school.
It seems the judge determined that setting out to harm did not need to be proven in the case, as harm would so obviously occur.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 8:53 am

More to it too...

From this morning's Mail:

''Last night the married MP who allegedly had the affair threatened legal action if he was named. His alleged mistress could not be contacted for comment. ''

A couple of other Tories were reported to have been threatening legal injunctions last week.
A Christmas bonus for law firms.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:00 am

yahyah wrote: Much was made earlier about Feldman being Cameron's pal, and the lack of independence of the Tory investigation with Feldman's party workers gathering evidence.

"We've reviewed all the evidence we were given"
"So how do you know that's all the evidence?"
"Er...."

I'm sure there's a squirrel out there somewhere just waiting to be found and brought into view...

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:04 am

I'm not Diane Abbott's biggest fan I must admit, but shouldn't the Shadow Secretary of State for International Development be referred to as such ?

: ScreenShot01147.jpg (62.98 KiB) Viewed 8698 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:09 am

Did they add 'Major humped her' after every reference to Edwina Currie when she was still in the news ?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:10 am

TobyLatimer wrote:I'm not Diane Abbott's biggest fan I must admit, but shouldn't the Shadow Secretary of State for International Development be referred to as such ?

When dealing with International Development issues, yes; on other occasions it has little relevance. Having said which, that is gutter journalism of Mail standards.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:11 am

Was thinking the same yahyah.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:11 am

Aftermorneve...

I picked this up last week but forgot to link to here (thought it might bring a little smile

)...

The Daily Mail columnist was part of a panel at Brunel University debating whether the welfare state had a place in 2015 as part of the institution's 50th anniversary celebrations.
But as soon as Hopkins, who has previously compared refugees to cockroaches, started talking, students in the theatre stood up and turned their backs to her, before filing out of the auditorium.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11 ... 53832.html

(although the subject of the debate is a cause for concern

)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:13 am

There's a pic tweeted last night of a police van and cops at the door of Tory HQ.
https://twitter.com/Byline_Media" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure if it's genuine, or actually related to investigation of the alleged crimes.
It's on the ByLine Media timeline.

If it's real they won't need a very big box to carry out the files will they ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:14 am

TobyLatimer wrote:I'm not Diane Abbott's biggest fan I must admit, but shouldn't the Shadow Secretary of State for International Development be referred to as such ?
ScreenShot01147.jpg

My sister said exactly the same yesterday Toby. She's not a big supporter of Abbott but - especially as a woman - she is disgusted that they seem to be trying to smear and undermine her on the basis of a boyfriend she had some decades ago ... how pathetic it is.

Perhaps we should be referring to John Major as 'Edwina Currie's ex lover' ....?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:23 am

Just read a Tory activist's blog written about six weeks ago.
He had complained about Clarke.

He says that people who were expected to stand for positions within a Tory youth movement suddenly didn't stand, or unexpectedly didn't get nominations.
Can't find the link now, will post it if I do.

Edited to add:

http://www.jackjmatthews.co.uk/blog/wha ... ive-future" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:26 am

Morning all.

I'm reminded of the whole nuclear deterrent discussion recently when thinking of Corbyn considering whipping his MPs. If he doesn't announce his decision prior to Cameron saying what date the Syria vote will take place, can Cameron (majority of 12 plus the DUP) ensure a clear win? Does Corbyn's waiting cause Cameron to postpone, delay, abandon?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:27 am

Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:29 am

Laura KuenssbergVerified account ‏@bbclaurak 1h1 hour ago
Tories also having internal problems today - party board meets this afternoon as pressure grows on Lord Feldman over bullying claims

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:30 am

Wonder if Cameron could be implicated

: ScreenShot01148.jpg (16.81 KiB) Viewed 8643 times

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:33 am

There are times when Paul Flynn really comes into his own.

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 3h3 hours ago Newport, Wales
JC picked balanced shadow cabinet of allies and others. If the GIVE WAR A CHANCE ones want to walk, eager able replacements are waiting.#

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 3h3 hours ago Newport, Wales
Truth is out. Posturing Cameron's hubris mocked by Tories Matthew Parris/ Peter Hitchens/Max Hastings, A vote for war is a burden for life

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 3h3 hours ago Newport, Wales
How many gullible Labour MPs did Hammond/Fallon duo convince that phantom army of 70,000 exists as inventors of Iraq WMDs in 2003 claimed?

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 2h2 hours ago Newport, Wales
Shadow cabinet resignations matter. Threats to resign don't. ANONYMOUS threats to resign are laughable.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:34 am

TobyLatimer wrote:Wonder if Cameron could be implicated
ScreenShot01148.jpg

I'm more interested if Osborne's implicated.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:37 am

<Coughs> My husband has an old saying he often uses ....'do they keep that behaviour just for that occasion or situation'.

If gaining seats was a priority, would such alleged behaviour stop at targeting Tories ?

I notice the Mail use the word MPs, not specifically stating Tory MPs, in their mention of the alleged 'pimping' out of male & female youth activists for political advantage.

Maybe we'll find out why the Lib Dems rolled over so easily, and in such large numbers

The problem is people who have been set up, enticed into sexting, slept with an activist, or been blackmailed are not going to be that willing to have the story exposed.
That may be something that helps the Tories keep the worst under wraps.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:38 am

yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.

I'm for a free vote - pretty much always have been because I think it's a matter of conscience. I understand the horrible dilemma Corbyn and co face though - if they believe a free vote will give Cameron enough support to go to war ... when you strongly believe that further bombing will be disastrous both for Syria and for us. It will be a grisly distinction to see via the votes those that support war and those that don't / aren't convinced by Cameron's 'case'. I wonder how many of the newer intake of Labour - and Tory - MPs will be for or against post Iraq?

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:40 am

Last week there was a bit of discussion wrt the press, and whether they follow the public or whether the public follow them....

The real power of newspapers comes in their ability to ‘frame’ news. This is the process by which a newspaper selects a story for publication, interprets it, and reports it. By highlighting negative issues, and importantly keeping the negative news focus upon a particular party, issues can be subtly shaped.

http://electionblog2010.blogspot.co.uk/ ... apers.html

...and, of course, everything's hunky-dory now, because this would never happen in the modern media (from the Observer in 1990)....would it?...nah...course not

RUPERT MURDOCH, the world’s most powerful media baron, is secretly funding an extreme right-wing pressure group run by a close aide to the former Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. An investigation by The Observer has revealed six- figure payments by Mr Murdoch to David Hart, the founder and organiser of the Committee for a Free Britain. Mr Hart played a key role in theConservative Party’s General Election campaigns of 1983 and 1987, and during the 1984 miners’ strike. He enjoys a close relationship with members of John Major’s new Cabinet, including Chancellor Norman Lamont and Transport Secretary Malcolm Rifkind.

https://fothom.wordpress.com/2015/11/19 ... -briefing/

(Note - the 'Committee for a Free Britain' also had a certain Paul Staines and Thatchers funding supremo, Jimmy (father of Zac) Goldsmith - http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Paul_Staines)

Given the 40+ years of the influence (at the very least) of such a secretive grouping, there's absolutely no possible way that the news agenda could be being 'driven' for the advantage of a few...no siree bob...absolutely definitely no way at all...where's that tin-foil hat of mine...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:42 am

StephenDolan wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Wonder if Cameron could be implicated
ScreenShot01148.jpg
I'm more interested if Osborne's implicated.

<coughs again> & there's all that stuff about Coulson's employment by Cameron being supported by Osborne, the editorial he ran that helped save Osborne's career when Natalie Rowe and the cocaine and S&M stories were in the Sunday papers.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:43 am

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 3h3 hours ago Newport, Wales
Hammond's excuse for £2,000 watch gift as convincing as claim that Pickles digested Savoy lunch with his private not ministerial stomach.

Sorry for the Flynn overdose ... but he's really on form today.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:45 am

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
Tory MP warns of a "Get Feldman" clique who want to bring down Party chairman to wound Cameron

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:49 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
Tory MP warns of a "Get Feldman" clique who want to bring down Party chairman to wound Cameron

It really is daggers out for leaders time.
Watch out Timmy & Nige.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:51 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
Tory MP warns of a "Get Feldman" clique who want to bring down Party chairman to wound Cameron

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Most open and transparent government ever.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:52 am

Very thoughtful and well put across.

The argument for intervening in Syria is strong – but not strong enough
Wes Streeting
I will be voting against airstrikes. David Cameron’s case doesn’t add up to the comprehensive strategy that we need to end war in Syria and defeat Isis
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... dApp_Tweet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... I wish I had the self-assurance and certainty to tell you that this is unquestionably the right decision. The reality is far more complex and no one can be certain. There are some compelling arguments in favour of airstrikes. I respect colleagues who have reached a different conclusion and do not question their integrity or sincerity.

This should be above party politics. I am deeply saddened to report that a number of Labour colleagues are experiencing tactics that can only be described as bullying and intimidating: hostile resolutions, abusive messages and threats of deselection. This is no way to conduct debate on such an important issue – or indeed any issue. I feel very lucky to be part of our Labour family in Ilford North, where we conduct our debates in an inclusive and supportive manner. Every message I have received from local members have been in that spirit, and I am grateful. I believe we need a free vote on military action and have relayed this view to the whips and party leadership.

In the coming days I will keep listening, maintain an open mind and act in accordance with my conscience...

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 9:57 am

Morning all

Reflecting on Syria

I see two objectives that are in play (there may be others but they are variations on these two) and whether or not bomb should be measured against whether it is part of a strategy to implement them

1. Prevent a terrorist attack in the UK

Let me be clear there WILL be a terrorist attack one day and it will not be prevented by air strikes. My view is that the terrorists do not come from Syria but are radicalized home grown people. Also air strikes would possibly increase the risk of targeting of the UK

2. Defeating ISIS

Air strikes could be a part of a strategy to defeat them militarily but there will need to be a lot more information on how this works in practice. There is no strategy as far as I can see so air strikes cannot be part of something that does exist

The idea that we should respond to the French request is also wrong. France should not have asked and responding emotionally on something such as this is a flawed argument

So in summary, no to air strikes

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:02 am

Morning, all.
A few people in my thoughts and meditations today, hoping they find peace.

OGRPPFGTCC will not stage a vote he can't win. Pundits have said that "a handful" of Tory MPs will rebel; but how many actual MPs is "a handful"?
There are 8 DUP MPs; even if they all supported Cameron, this would give a theoretical majority of 20. It wouldn't take much for him to lose.

Suppose Corbyn imposes a three-line whip - if he won the vote, he could lose half his cabinet plus a lot of his own credibility, and if he lost, he'd have to go. Having defied the whip himself more than a few times, win or lose the vote, he would look pretty bad.
The only advantages to doing this that I can see is that he would flush out all those who oppose him and his leadership - and there would be some hard questions for MPs voting for air strikes from their constituents, many of whom are against more involvement.

Suppose he decides on a free vote - if he won the vote, his credibility is boosted and he could demand loyalty from the PLP; those who are playing games in the background would have to put up or shut up. If he lost the vote, at least his credibility would remain intact and the cabinet would not be able to split on this issue alone.

On balance, I think he should go for a free vote - but not announce it until Cameron has set the date. Cameron is the PM - if he has the courage of his convictions, he will have that vote. Of course, he hasn't - and he looks like a tosser as it is. Delaying tactics will make him look even worse.

The difficulty I am having here is that although this should be a matter of conscience, it isn't.
It seems to me that certain MPs are using this as a stick to beat Corbyn with - and are apparently willing to kill civilians in Raqqa by the thousand, risk the lives of our service personnel, and support military action on the basis of an assertion from Cameron as puerile as the dodgy dossier, just to get rid of a leader who was installed by a majority vote.

This whole business has been blown up as a political football, and I am disgusted by it. Ed Miliband was right in 2013; now that Cameron has changed his mind about whose side he's on, but determined to get his regime change and have his war anyway, we have to go through the entire performance again.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:03 am

yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.

I'm for the free vote...now that every commentator and their dogs (apart from a tiny minority) have come out to say at the very least, Clouncys' plan doesn't resemble an actual plan and, as it seems that whatever demands were agreed at the LP Conference this year have also not been met, any 'rebels' joining the Tories will be on very sticky ground.

ttfn...and thank you all for being here.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:09 am

Morning all.
YahYah,why is today so sad?Hope everything is alright chez yahyah.
One of todays Indy headers
'Len McCluskey warns entire union movement would defend Jeremy Corbyn from Labour coup attempt'.
Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:15 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.
I'm for the free vote...now that every commentator and their dogs (apart from a tiny minority) have come out to say at the very least, Clouncys' plan doesn't resemble an actual plan and, as it seems that whatever demands were agreed at the LP Conference this year have also not been met, any 'rebels' joining the Tories will be on very sticky ground.

ttfn...and thank you all for being here.

Totally agree

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:16 am

yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.

Maybe it should depend on getting clarification from Cameron first.
If reasonable answers are given on the 70000
moderates*
then have a free vote.
If not, impose a whip.

*troublesome things moderates.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:16 am

James Lyons ‏@STJamesl 15m15 minutes ago
Some in shadow cabinet considering forcing a whipped vote IN FAVOUR on faction in Syria....

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:21 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Lyons ‏@STJamesl 15m15 minutes ago
Some in shadow cabinet considering forcing a whipped vote IN FAVOUR on faction in Syria....

If true (and I give them the benefit of the doubt) then they should resign. Also I would move to deselect but that is an emotional response so probably wrong

As Wolfe said any Labour MP ( never mind SC) who votes for is on a sticky wicket. I would also say they are guilty of flawed judgement based on the shite we have seen from Clouncy and the lessons we should take from Iraq and Libya

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:24 am

Rebecca wrote:Morning all.
YahYah,why is today so sad?Hope everything is alright chez yahyah.
One of todays Indy headers
'Len McCluskey warns entire union movement would defend Jeremy Corbyn from Labour coup attempt'.
Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?

If there is a coup, and it won't be because of Syria, Len will in effect do no such thing, and he knows it. Once Corbyn is challenged the pressure not to stand again will be huge. Len has as much interest in an electable party as the rest of the country. My suspicion is that he hasn't found an acceptable alternative yet.

If I were Dan Jarvis I would be having a word in Lens ear and penning articles in praise of Trades Unions.

An awful lot hinges on Oldham, although it will take an actual defeat to create a crisis (I can't see the Kippers having the votes, and I think Labour will scrape home, possibly a majority of 1k).

Corbyn could sack 2/3 of the shadow cabinet today, which would make things interesting.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:25 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Lyons ‏@STJamesl 15m15 minutes ago
Some in shadow cabinet considering forcing a whipped vote IN FAVOUR on faction in Syria....

Define some. One, two?
My gut instinct is that those in the shadow cabinet who wish to vote for airstrikes would prefer a free vote. Attempting to force a party position of Yes is playing with matches.

Edit: Lyons is being extremely vague here, I don't mean you RR!

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:27 am

Morning all.
When it comes to the parliamentary arithmetic, don't forget that the 4 Sinn Fein won't turn up, giving Cameron a larger majority

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:27 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Lyons ‏@STJamesl 15m15 minutes ago
Some in shadow cabinet considering forcing a whipped vote IN FAVOUR on faction in Syria....

If true (and I give them the benefit of the doubt) then they should resign. Also I would move to deselect but that is an emotional response so probably wrong

As Wolfe said any Labour MP ( never mind SC) who votes for is on a sticky wicket. I would also say they are guilty of flawed judgement based on the shite we have seen from Clouncy and the lessons we should take from Iraq and Libya

The problem is, 2/3 of the SC support intervention. Their opponents are Corbyn 3 others and Dianne Abbott.

So if Corbyn wants a free vote he can have one, if he wants to impose a whip he has to live with collective responsibility.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:32 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:

If true (and I give them the benefit of the doubt) then they should resign. Also I would move to deselect but that is an emotional response so probably wrong

As Wolfe said any Labour MP ( never mind SC) who votes for is on a sticky wicket. I would also say they are guilty of flawed judgement based on the shite we have seen from Clouncy and the lessons we should take from Iraq and Libya
The problem is, 2/3 of the SC support intervention. Their opponents are Corbyn 3 others and Dianne Abbott.

So if Corbyn wants a free vote he can have one, if he wants to impose a whip he has to live with collective responsibility.

Do the 2/3 support airstrikes as outlined by Cameron?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:32 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:

If true (and I give them the benefit of the doubt) then they should resign. Also I would move to deselect but that is an emotional response so probably wrong

As Wolfe said any Labour MP ( never mind SC) who votes for is on a sticky wicket. I would also say they are guilty of flawed judgement based on the shite we have seen from Clouncy and the lessons we should take from Iraq and Libya
The problem is, 2/3 of the SC support intervention. Their opponents are Corbyn 3 others and Dianne Abbott.

So if Corbyn wants a free vote he can have one, if he wants to impose a whip he has to live with collective responsibility.

2/3 have flawed judgement then and, after the disasters in Iraq and Syria, I doubt that the SC is worthy of support. And probably the PLP as well

I left Labour because of Iraq and this is an important test. If the PLP are in favour then as far as I am concerned I have had it with them

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:33 am

yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Wonder if Cameron could be implicated
ScreenShot01148.jpg
I'm more interested if Osborne's implicated.
<coughs again> & there's all that stuff about Coulson's employment by Cameron being supported by Osborne, the editorial he ran that helped save Osborne's career when Natalie Rowe and the cocaine and S&M stories were in the Sunday papers.

Quantitative Sleazing?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:41 am

So if Corbyn goes for the free vote and '2/3 of the shadow cabinet' find out that they're way out of line with the PLP as a whole, god willing, what then?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:44 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Rebecca wrote:Morning all.
YahYah,why is today so sad?Hope everything is alright chez yahyah.
One of todays Indy headers
'Len McCluskey warns entire union movement would defend Jeremy Corbyn from Labour coup attempt'.
Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?
If there is a coup, and it won't be because of Syria, Len will in effect do no such thing, and he knows it. Once Corbyn is challenged the pressure not to stand again will be huge. Len has as much interest in an electable party as the rest of the country. My suspicion is that he hasn't found an acceptable alternative yet.

If I were Dan Jarvis I would be having a word in Lens ear and penning articles in praise of Trades Unions.

An awful lot hinges on Oldham, although it will take an actual defeat to create a crisis (I can't see the Kippers having the votes, and I think Labour will scrape home, possibly a majority of 1k).

Corbyn could sack 2/3 of the shadow cabinet today, which would make things interesting.

The reason Corbyn is party leader is because the alternative candidates were not acceptable,so,where is this labour mp coming from?If he/she is so electable,where were they less than three months ago?
Frankly TE,if McCluskey stood up and said that the entire union movement,so that's not just Unite,but the lot of them including affiliates,wanted Corbyn to go,you would be all over it like flies on a shit.You hate Corbyn so much that you are unable to accept the slightest positive reaction to him.It has no part in your dogmatic denigration of everything he says,does or is reported to have said/done.
Seems to me there are members of a hate Corbyn cult(using the c word seeing as all of the thousands of Corbyn supporters are supposedly members of some large,almost satanic cult of devil worshippers)who would cut out their own tongues rather than admit one single good thing about Corbyn.And you sir/madam,are one of them.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:48 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.
I'm for a free vote - pretty much always have been because I think it's a matter of conscience. I understand the horrible dilemma Corbyn and co face though - if they believe a free vote will give Cameron enough support to go to war ... when you strongly believe that further bombing will be disastrous both for Syria and for us. It will be a grisly distinction to see via the votes those that support war and those that don't / aren't convinced by Cameron's 'case'. I wonder how many of the newer intake of Labour - and Tory - MPs will be for or against post Iraq?

The other side of that coin was shown back in 2003, where a very sizeable chunk of Labour MPs (including Corbyn) voted against Blair's rush to war, whereas most Tories voted for it (IDS, their then Leader, was positively baying for blood); so when Tory trolls start trying to stir about 2003 it is entirely possible for Labour supporters to stand against them with pride and dignity. Same applies this time where, if it is a free vote as I think it should, the Tories will vote for it virtually en masse; when it goes pear shaped, as it inevitably will, Cameron and his party will have nowhere left to hide.

Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?

Their effectively coming out for the Tories just before the GE cost them a lot of credibility with their readership, they know they need to earn some serious brownie points.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 10:57 am

If the likes of Wes Streeting aren't going to vote for intervention, I am struggling to see where these guesstimates of 70 (never mind 100) Labour MPs in favour come from?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 11:01 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Can we have a straw poll about whipped/free vote ?

My feeling is for a free vote. I think such a serious matter should be one of conscience.
I'm for a free vote - pretty much always have been because I think it's a matter of conscience. I understand the horrible dilemma Corbyn and co face though - if they believe a free vote will give Cameron enough support to go to war ... when you strongly believe that further bombing will be disastrous both for Syria and for us. It will be a grisly distinction to see via the votes those that support war and those that don't / aren't convinced by Cameron's 'case'. I wonder how many of the newer intake of Labour - and Tory - MPs will be for or against post Iraq?
The other side of that coin was shown back in 2003, where a very sizeable chunk of Labour MPs (including Corbyn) voted against Blair's rush to war, whereas most Tories voted for it (IDS, their then Leader, was positively baying for blood); so when Tory trolls start trying to stir about 2003 it is entirely possible for Labour supporters to stand against them with pride and dignity. Same applies this time where, if it is a free vote as I think it should, the Tories will vote for it virtually en masse; when it goes pear shaped, as it inevitably will, Cameron and his party will have nowhere left to hide.

Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?
Their effectively coming out for the Tories just before the GE cost them a lot of credibility with their readership, they know they need to earn some serious brownie points.

Re the Indy stuff;you're probably right,but even so,stories like the Fireman reaffiliating with Labour expressly because of Corbyn didn't get a mention at the Guardian.Not one sentence,like it didn't happen.But if the union had made even one mildly discouraging remark in a vaguely Corbyn direction,Wintour etc would have three pieces up about it before you could say Corbynite.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 11:06 am

Rebecca wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm for a free vote - pretty much always have been because I think it's a matter of conscience. I understand the horrible dilemma Corbyn and co face though - if they believe a free vote will give Cameron enough support to go to war ... when you strongly believe that further bombing will be disastrous both for Syria and for us. It will be a grisly distinction to see via the votes those that support war and those that don't / aren't convinced by Cameron's 'case'. I wonder how many of the newer intake of Labour - and Tory - MPs will be for or against post Iraq?
The other side of that coin was shown back in 2003, where a very sizeable chunk of Labour MPs (including Corbyn) voted against Blair's rush to war, whereas most Tories voted for it (IDS, their then Leader, was positively baying for blood); so when Tory trolls start trying to stir about 2003 it is entirely possible for Labour supporters to stand against them with pride and dignity. Same applies this time where, if it is a free vote as I think it should, the Tories will vote for it virtually en masse; when it goes pear shaped, as it inevitably will, Cameron and his party will have nowhere left to hide.

Is the Indy now the only newspaper printing positive Corbyn pieces?
Their effectively coming out for the Tories just before the GE cost them a lot of credibility with their readership, they know they need to earn some serious brownie points.

Re the Indy stuff;you're probably right,but even so,stories like the Fireman reaffiliating with Labour expressly because of Corbyn didn't get a mention at the Guardian.Not one sentence,like it didn't happen.But if the union had made even one mildly discouraging remark in a vaguely Corbyn direction,Wintour etc would have three pieces up about it before you could say Corbynite.

How is that a shock? The Graun consistently briefed against Miliband, they will do the same against Corbyn; Wintour, Watt, Kettle, Jenkins, White, Helm et al (and, yes, et al very much includes Sparrow) gave up any pretence of impartiality years ago, which is why print sales plummeted (why pay good money for poorly written & biased hackery) and even online readership (in the UK) has been hit.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 11:32 am

Good morfternoon.

I've just received through the post my renewed Labour Party membership.
Together with a request to renew my membership . . .

Anyway, to get to the point of my post -

I sustained a very nasty paper cut when opening the envelope.