Tuesday, 9th August 2016

[JonnyT1234]

Perhaps someone should tell the Tory MP in that article about the chronic shortage of crew and boats available to patrol the whole coast, and not just the Channel? Being in government you'd think he might know about it.

[PorFavor]

Ann Black was one of the people on the NEC who voted for the cut off, I believe, and has just been voted back on, at the top of the list with over 100,000 votes. We get what we vote for, perhaps?

Anyhow, setting the terms and conditions for leadership contests falls to the NEC and clearly includes setting a cut off of some sort. Something more proportionate would have been defendable, such as two months matching the provisional period, or once a leadership challenge happened. Quite where 6 months came from is still a mystery. One issue that has come out of this is that the people running the website don't appear to be talking to the NEC and vice versa. It should be clear on the website that rules for leadership contests can vary and I'm surprised it wasn't as there will always be some kind of cut off at some point. Not that I'm trying to defend the 6 months, just wondering why the website wasn't more professional in protecting the party from litigation.

We don't know how Ann Black voted, unfortunately, as the ballot was secret. It would be surprising if she did vote for the six-month cut-off if she's as much a Corbyn supporter as everyone seems to think, but we'll never know.

Wasn't the text on the website added in response to queries from members or would-be members? My recent experience with the administrative side of the party is not at all good, but I imagine their workload is unbelievable right now.

I wonder who signed the change to the wording on the website off?

That's the point I was making the other day when I said that going to court would only give free rein to articles about how Labour are unable to put together a legally watertight document.

[citizenJA]

Thanks yahyah - sadly, I expect it to be a short visit.

It saddens me to see the repeated attacks on people like Hugo. Whatever people think of where he sits on the left-right scale, he used to be a party member & is now one of many lost to the party. Doubtless there will be people thinking that he's well rid of & the many thousands that have now joined more than replace him but I don't like seeing anybody leaving our party - their vote is crucial at election time.

This was originally set-up as a haven for left-leaning people who no longer wanted to or had been banned for whatever reason from posting at the Graun. It was never meant to be a place where personal insults were traded & posters were ganged up against.

Some calm & reflection before posting wouldn't go amiss at times

I value your posts, your comments here add goodness on flythenest.

[StephenDolan]

Start deselecting MP's & watch our party die

edit: no idea why the image didn't load but regardless, here's what the tweet by Kevin Schofield, said:

New Labour NEC member Rhea Wolfson says there needs to be "a conversation" about mandatory reselection of MPs. Fancy that ...

Tricky one. For me it depends upon the parameters. There's potential for Saving Labour to get rid of Corbyn at the constituency level

[ephemerid]

Thanks yahyah - sadly, I expect it to be a short visit.

It saddens me to see the repeated attacks on people like Hugo. Whatever people think of where he sits on the left-right scale, he used to be a party member & is now one of many lost to the party. Doubtless there will be people thinking that he's well rid of & the many thousands that have now joined more than replace him but I don't like seeing anybody leaving our party - their vote is crucial at election time.

This was originally set-up as a haven for left-leaning people who no longer wanted to or had been banned for whatever reason from posting at the Graun. It was never meant to be a place where personal insults were traded & posters were ganged up against.

Some calm & reflection before posting wouldn't go amiss at times

I value your posts, your comments here add goodness on flythenest.

I agree with you, Citizen - I'd love to see more posts from people who don't come here very often any more.

However - I think it is wrong to say that any person is being ganged up against.

I know that I am very rude to, and about, Spinning Hugo. He has been extremely rude to me in the past; and he persists with his one-track concern trolling despite many posters arguing with him and several asking admin to ask him to stop.
As Robert points out, whenever this happens, we get a brief period of reasonableness then it starts again. Every single time. It puts people off, and I know of quite a few who won't post here because of it. I agree with mbc1955 (again).

On another topic.....

howsillyofme - that was a terrific post. It's pretty much how I feel, especially re.Miliband. I couldn't have put it so well, though. Thanks.

[JonnyT1234]

... Seems very white, middle class and London-centric though ...

Not remotely like New Labour then.

[SpinningHugo]

... Seems very white, middle class and London-centric though ...

Not remotely like New Labour then.

New Labour was Scottish as well, but yes.

[ephemerid]

Start deselecting MP's & watch our party die

edit: no idea why the image didn't load but regardless, here's what the tweet by Kevin Schofield, said:

New Labour NEC member Rhea Wolfson says there needs to be "a conversation" about mandatory reselection of MPs. Fancy that ...

Tricky one. For me it depends upon the parameters. There's potential for Saving Labour to get rid of Corbyn at the constituency level

Ho hum.

Rather than "de"-selecting people, maybe the whole selection process should be reformed. It would be wrong to remove MPs who are doing a good job for their constituents, so if the CLP was anti-whatever faction their MP belonged to they shouldn't have the right to remove them. At the same time, I don't think it's right that outsiders are parachuted in even when there's a good local person.

There's an old article from last year here -
labourlist.org/2015/06/to-win-labour-must-address-the-selection-process-of-parliamentary-candidates/

[pk1]

Ed Miliband has said he's backing Owen Smith in the Leadership election

[youtube]fjptaQC4pEM[/youtube]

Still makes my heart skip a beat

[JonnyT1234]

Deleted. Weird caching issue on my mobile again.

[StephenDolan]

Perhaps someone should tell the Tory MP in that article about the chronic shortage of crew and boats available to patrol the whole coast, and not just the Channel? Being in government you'd think he might know about it.

Indeed. There are 14 coastal patrol vessels (although the primary purpose of these is training, and two of which are tied to Faslane) and four River class, one of which is stationed at the Falklands. So that's effectively 16 vessels for 20,000 miles of coastline. There are some new offshore patrol vessels being built in order to keep BAE Systems yard on the Clyde open, but given the state of the RN's finances, I imagine these will be used to replace existing vessels rather than supplement them.

The Navy is in dire financial straits at the moment, no pun intended. Even after the number of Type 45 Destroyers was cut back to a barely adequate six (replacing 14 Type 42s), the RN can't afford to keep all of them in commission - Dauntless (I think) has been downgraded to a training ship for the time being.

Hardly surprising when so much of the budget is sucked up by the nuclear missile subs. But the Navy turkeys keep voting for Christmas because it gives them a strategic role.

I thought the intention of the 45s had been to protect the new aircraft carriers?

[citizenJA]

Please have patience with me and know I'm not meaning harm by asking the following:
Is Corbyn doing the right thing? Is his remaining after the vote of no confidence wise?

[citizenJA]

Corbyn versus All-Parts-Of-Labour-Not-Corbyn

[HindleA]

ID thankfully I haven't got children so I have no interest in what happens after me.For some years I spent part of my daily routine running around Sefton Park or more correctly doing bench to bench fag training.My first flat and shot of independence was just off Newsham Park at £10 a week rent,no cooker fridge, washing machine and other such luxuries but a chippy and laundrette around the corner.

[HindleA]

Tony Benn was parachuted in.

[HindleA]

Current locally born MP has callings for deselection for the crime of unsitting the Libdem(only Lab candidate in country that did in 2010) and making a marginal into a safe seat and having a different view to selfselected few.

[Temulkar]

Tony Benn was parachuted in.

He actually refused to be parachuted into Livingstone, and contested another Bristol seat before going to Chesterfield in a by-election. It's very different to the Kinnock red prince parachuted into a constituency he had barely seen and a country with which he is only vaguely acquainted.

[Temulkar]

And I say that as someone who considered Benn and incredibly destructive force in the party in the 80s and 90s in spite of my trot father. And my father really was a trot working to overthrow the government.

[utopiandreams]

ID thankfully I haven't got children so I have no interest in what happens after me.For some years I spent part of my daily routine running around Sefton Park or more correctly doing bench to bench fag training.My first flat and shot of independence was just off Newsham Park at £10 a week rent,no cooker fridge, washing machine and other such luxuries but a chippy and laundrette around the corner.

So you'll know all about pink undies then.

[howsillyofme1]

I do not support mandatory reselection in principle

I think it is too broad a brush to use and would limit MPs

I am unconvinced that it will come to pass though

Despite me saying this though there is a certain responsibility of MPs to be sensitive to the opinions of their CLP especially if they are at odds with both them and the leadership

Certain MPs have also been very insulting about the membership and again they cannot assume that they can get away with that for ever

There seems to be a tendency to use the bogeyman of de selection to show that the membership is all about threatening sitting MPs and it is used regularly be certain people in the press

We have to consider though that an MP chosen and elected under Blair cannot be in conflict with both the CLP and leadership without fear of consequences from the party hierarchy. Remember these MPs are elected on a Labour ticket and have to understand that

There should be some changes to the rules to improve and democratise the choosing of candidates without making reselection mandatory

I think only a limited number of MPs are really under threat of this and they are the ones who probably are philosophically in the wrong party

[JonnyT1234]

Please have patience with me and know I'm not meaning harm by asking the following:
Is Corbyn doing the right thing? Is his remaining after the vote of no confidence wise?

From the perspective of the members, yes. Even if you are against Corbyn, it is untenable to let the PLP completely ride roughshod over the members. It's been a particularly destructive trait of the PLP
for decades. It's schadenfreude I know, but it tickles me a little that the right of the party have very much been hoist by their own petard in this regard. They've wilfully ignored, insulted and neglected the membership for years because they thought they no longer needed them (big money donors being where it's at) [edit: or could simply take them acting like yes men for granted like they thought they could in Scotland]. Now that it's the membership that they're completely dependent upon to save their necks, guess what, they're not there for them. I wonder why. Blair had years to consolidate the 'moderate' position within the Party as a whole and not just in parliament but, as with the core vote, he let it atrophy and decay in pursuit of the 'centre ground' of corporate lobbyists instead.

If you're the PLP, then clearly the opposite. If Corbyn wins then they're screwed - too many bad things said against him for the party to have any chance of recovery until a significant number of them are gone and gone for good. However, the situation is not much better if Smith wins. They've completely poisoned their relationship with a huge number of the Party's members. They're not likely to be easily or quickly forgiven

Which rather puts into perspective just how unbelievably idiotic they've been in their approach to this.

[pk1]

If you're the PLP, then clearly the opposite. If Corbyn wins then they're screwed - too many bad things said against him for the party to have any chance of recovery until a significant number of them are gone and gone for good. However, the situation is not much better if Smith wins. They've completely poisoned their relationship with a huge number of the Party's members. They're not likely to be easily or quickly forgiven

It's the public that will be screwed - again ! They'll be stuck with the Cons for the forseeable future & no opposition to speak of.

[SpinningHugo]

Which rather puts into perspective just how unbelievably idiotic they've been in their approach to this.

Which is one reason why I think the talk of a premeditated coup is daft. that only makes sense if you think 81% of Labour MPs are stupid. Like Tom Watson in his interview with the Guardian today, I am sure that the trigger was the Brexit vote and Corbyn's reaction on the morning after. MPs were angy and reacted instinctively. As I was stood swearing at radio 4 on the morning of the 24th as he spoke, I complete understand their reaction.

With any ordinary leader, a vote of no confidence from an overwhelming majority of MPs would have caused them to resign. Labour has never before had a leader who would have behaved as Corbyn has done. Some see that as a plus I suppose.

[utopiandreams]

Norway may block UK return to European Free Trade Association (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ssociation).

Which reminds me I started learning Norwegian in my teens (don't ask there's usually a lady involved). I got so far that I'd even forgotten I had. On the subject of nostalgia, which must be my prelude to forgetting everything, Richard King: 'Record shops have undergone a form of gentrification' (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... al-rockers) has reminded me of Geoff and Probe Records. There was also Norman, a little guy with straight lank hair and small round glasses who worked at the Whitechapel branch who always played eclectic World music records for me, otherwise known as anything at all, which I usually bought. I'm afraid to say my collection was stolen never to be replaced.

Edit: another bloody typo!

[JonnyT1234]

If you're the PLP, then clearly the opposite. If Corbyn wins then they're screwed - too many bad things said against him for the party to have any chance of recovery until a significant number of them are gone and gone for good. However, the situation is not much better if Smith wins. They've completely poisoned their relationship with a huge number of the Party's members. They're not likely to be easily or quickly forgiven

It's the public that will be screwed - again ! They'll be stuck with the Cons for the forseeable future & no opposition to speak of.

The lack of effective opposition started in 1996 with the election of Blair and his 'middle' (i.e. not left wing) way. It was an abject surrender to right wing rhetoric that he and the people around him did next to bugger all to correct in the intervening 14 years and made even worse over time, not better. Brown never had a chance to get going, given that Blair had completely pissed in his pot, and Miliband could only nudge the course a little bit back to where it should have been. It's a bit much to expect Corbyn to have wholly corrected it in 9 months, particularly when there are more anchors dragging along the seabed under the ship than there are crew manning it.

I'll reiterate what I've said before, despite Corbyn's supposed uselessness, we've had more effective opposition in the last 9 months than we had in the prior 5 years. Even if he had little to do with it, the Party has actually been opposing for all the right reasons rather than abdicating for all the wrong ones. And that's despite all the whinging, leaking, backstabbing and smearing from the right of the Party.

[frightful_oik]

If you're the PLP, then clearly the opposite. If Corbyn wins then they're screwed - too many bad things said against him for the party to have any chance of recovery until a significant number of them are gone and gone for good. However, the situation is not much better if Smith wins. They've completely poisoned their relationship with a huge number of the Party's members. They're not likely to be easily or quickly forgiven

It's the public that will be screwed - again ! They'll be stuck with the Cons for the forseeable future & no opposition to speak of.

Not necessarily. You thought Ed was electable pk - so did I- but he wasn't. Perhaps JC is electable, if his backbenchers could be bothered to do what they were elected to do.

[utopiandreams]

'And I'll reiterate that he was only elected one week before conference.. He outlined policies during his election campaign but seemingly has had little support from the PLP in developing them further. He should have been allowed another conference at the least to do so.

[utopiandreams]

Whatever may have been said of them the two who have most impressed me are John McDonnell and Emily Thornberry.

[SpinningHugo]

Which rather puts into perspective just how unbelievably idiotic they've been in their approach to this.

Which is one reason why I think the talk of a premeditated coup is daft. that only makes sense if you think 81% of Labour MPs are stupid. Like Tom Watson in his interview with the Guardian today, I am sure that the trigger was the Brexit vote and Corbyn's reaction on the morning after. MPs were angy and reacted instinctively. As I was stood swearing at radio 4 on the morning of the 24th as he spoke, I complete understand their reaction.

With any ordinary leader, a vote of no confidence from an overwhelming majority of MPs would have caused them to resign. Labour has never before had a leader who would have behaved as Corbyn has done. Some see that as a plus I suppose.

Sigh. So it was a complete coincidence that the shadow cabinet resigned at neat two-hour intervals, exactly as predicted by the Telegraph several weeks beforehand, and the no-confidence vote was sprung immediately the result was in, again, exactly as predicted in the media some time previously?

It's a straw man to talk about the coup as meaning the 172 MPs voting no confidence and you know it.

Coincidence? No. But this hardly took weeks of planning in advance. There was real anger, they spoke to one another, and decided to act.

[I don't think you needed to preface your comment with 'Sigh'. How does that assist with achieving the general civility we are trying to achieve? I am trying to not respond to the posts that are boringly repetitively critical of me personally, which i hope helps in preventing the board descending in to dull abuse.]

[RogerOThornhill]

The original tweet...

Daniel Hannan Verified account
‏@DanielJHannan
A surprising number of British people on Twitter *want* the country to fail outside the EU, so as to be able to say "I told you so".


brought this response...

[SpinningHugo]

If you're the PLP, then clearly the opposite. If Corbyn wins then they're screwed - too many bad things said against him for the party to have any chance of recovery until a significant number of them are gone and gone for good. However, the situation is not much better if Smith wins. They've completely poisoned their relationship with a huge number of the Party's members. They're not likely to be easily or quickly forgiven

It's the public that will be screwed - again ! They'll be stuck with the Cons for the forseeable future & no opposition to speak of.

Not necessarily. You thought Ed was electable pk - so did I- but he wasn't. Perhaps JC is electable, if his backbenchers could be bothered to do what they were elected to do.

Ok. Let us accept the premise.

Let us assume that the PLP are a bunch of idiots/duplicitous rightwingers who won't accept the mandate of the elected leader. What then?

Is it better:

a. To tell them to go to hell, re-elect that leader, and try over many years to change the PLP;

or

b. Accept that the PLP is 81% scumbags and elect a leader they can work with?

[pk1]

Not necessarily. You thought Ed was electable pk - so did I- but he wasn't. Perhaps JC is electable, if his backbenchers could be bothered to do what they were elected to do.

I did but we all saw what happened by the Cons. If you think Ed's bacon sandwich press was bad, imagine what Corbyn & McDonnells history will be dragged up !

Sorry but I doubt the country will vote for (media-painted) IRA sympathisers; for a man claiming Hamas & Hezbollah are friends and so on.

The press can be cruel but they haven't even begun on Corbyn & McDonnell - there's a vast array of questionable images & quotes for them to choose from

[yahyah]

There's also the potential for bad headlines a year or two down the line, if the child abuse inquiry ever gets off the ground properly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... andal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, I know it is John Mann, but that won't stop the media raking over it if the Islington survivors get justice, or a cover up is found to have occurred. Even if Corbyn is not implicated by the report, that won't stop insinuations being made, possibly close to a general election.

That was one of my initial concerns about voting for Corbyn.

[howsillyofme1]

Whatever the PLP were trying to do, they made a complete mess of it and really didn't inspire confidence

My ire is focused on those who were the ringleaders - although it is not clear who they are - as to me there was someone coordinating it

The EU referendum reaction was over the top as well, especially from those MPs who could not convince their constituents to vote Remain. How someone like Stephen Kinnock can have the gall to criticise Corbyn when his own constituency vote to Leave on the premise that 'the EU has done nothing for us!'

The EU vote was due to a shambolic referendum called by a shambolic PM with an added bit of lying - the PLP's decision to focus on Corbyn has continued to influence the argument that sees Labour being held to blame for something that was clearly caused by the Tories. That certain members of the PLP have fanned the flames says a lot to me. The same story was being repeated during the BBC documentary where the 'Labour' (is Will Straw in anyway Labour?) commentators stayed on message......

Not all the PLP are worthy of criticism but there are some very vocal ones who have lost their sense of proportion and have sided with the Tories against their own party for their own ends

I stand by what I said about deselection but there are some MPs who may well be eligible for being thrown out of the party depending on their reaction to the leadership election

[frightful_oik]

It's the public that will be screwed - again ! They'll be stuck with the Cons for the forseeable future & no opposition to speak of.

Not necessarily. You thought Ed was electable pk - so did I- but he wasn't. Perhaps JC is electable, if his backbenchers could be bothered to do what they were elected to do.

Ok. Let us accept the premise.

Let us assume that the PLP are a bunch of idiots/duplicitous rightwingers who won't accept the mandate of the elected leader. What then?

Is it better:

a. To tell them to go to hell, re-elect that leader, and try over many years to change the PLP;

or

b. Accept that the PLP is 81% scumbags and elect a leader they can work with?

Well neither. Of the two you posit,the second one is unconscionable.

[yahyah]

The lawyer representing the Islington abuse survivors:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/poli ... 545949.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please don't accuse me of smears. I am not smearing Corbyn, just mindful of the potential problems.
The media will not miss a trick when the time comes to focus on it.

[HindleA]

Paul Flynn


Congratulations Andy Burnham. I've had no new job offers for 4 weeks. Now a tricky choice between Shadow Home Secretary or Emperor of Japan.

[yahyah]

@pk

Ah, but are any of Corbyn or McDonnell's questionable images and quotes as bad as Owen Smith....gasp...horror...being photographed eating an ice cream.

[yahyah]

Good night.

Appreciate the calmer mood here today. Thanks.

[citizenJA]

Good night.

Appreciate the calmer mood here today. Thanks.

Goodnight, yahyah.

[ephemerid]

Oh. Still on about the uselessness/nastiness/whatever of Labour politicians, I see.

I've been watching the swimming. Helen Skelton is driving me INSANE. Just put Mark Foster in his trunks and leave him to get on with it, please.

The rugby sevens have been fun too; the rowing's going well, and the fantastic Katherine Grainger is in another Olympic final on Thursday.

Thank goodness for the Test matches and the Olympics - very welcome distractions......

[HindleA]

#saveHelenSkelton

[HindleA]

Played a bit of cricket in a Sunday League for a few weeks because they were short of players.Interesting experience in vaguelly putting your bat somewhere where you think the ball will arrive more in self preservation than purposeful stroke.I was good in the field and running about a bit usually aimlessly but I did catch someone out with a bit of a leap on one occasion I celebrated as if I had won the ashes single handedly.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


UK trade deficit widens as factory output slows and imports grow

[ohsocynical]

CpbiC2qXEAEJGvA.jpg (183.77 KiB) Viewed 12114 times

Tom Watson's speech at Labour Conference 2015

[PorFavor]

@ohsocynical

Hello!

Lovely to hear from you. Hope all's ok with you and yours.

[PorFavor]

Oh - that was a brief vist from ohsocynical. I've just looked at the cast list and she's gone.
Cameo rôle?

[ChrisDean]

Hi, Osho!

That speech by Tom Watson at conference last year, eh!

[ephemerid]

Played a bit of cricket in a Sunday League for a few weeks because they were short of players.Interesting experience in vaguelly putting your bat somewhere where you think the ball will arrive more in self preservation than purposeful stroke.I was good in the field and running about a bit usually aimlessly but I did catch someone out with a bit of a leap on one occasion I celebrated as if I had won the ashes single handedly.

My very first serious boyfriend was a chap called Roland Butcher.

I was training for swimming, him for cricket, and we used to go for runs together when I wasn't n the pool at stupid o'clock in the mornings before school. He went on to play for MCC, then England. I retired from competitive swimming when I was 17 (it was that or A-levels).

I spent quite a bit of time retrieving his balls. As it were.....

[ephemerid]

Good to see you Ohso.

And that post is a cracker....