Wednesday 9th November 2016

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:15 am

yahyah wrote:What did she offer ?

Investment in infrastructure. Paid family and medical leave. Raising the minimum wage. Investment in skills training. A crackdown on tax avoidance by companies. To enhance not privatise Social Security and help pensioners in retirement. Equal pay for women. Working for women and LGBT rights. Immigration reform to help people to full citizenship. Work to end campus sexual assault - or ''pussy grabbing'' as Trump might call it. Universal, affordable health care. Support for families with autistic children. Progressive housing policies. Working to help counter climate change. Wildlife and animal protection. Action on gun control. Investment in better paying jobs. Investment in addiction treatment. Reforms to education. Help with student fees for low income people. Reforms to political campaign financing.

I really don't have the time to continue with them all. Her policy on student fees seemed more progressive than Labour's when I heard it the other night.

All things I support, the problem is she wasn't trusted to deliver them

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:19 am

this has to be a joke
someone tell me it's a joke
I don't accept this
I can't accept this
we're doomed

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:19 am

Good-morning, everyone.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:20 am

If you've been hearing those things for years and you're still stuck in a rural trailer park because all the factories have outsourced the jobs to Mexico through NAFTA, it's not difficult to see why those people instead chose the person claiming to bring jobs back to America and throw out the immigrants that they (incorrectly) blame for their low prospects.

People locked out of the economy won't care much for further rights for those who do have access (paid maternity leave,etc). It's fine to say they're wrong, but you have to make clear to them why they are wrong.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:21 am

I'm not saying Trump will bring those jobs back, just that he said he would

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:26 am

~~The best thing to happen to me at this point is contracting a super virus ending my life within days.~~
I don't wish for my death. I was overwhelmed by anxious sorrow and anger and wrote an irresponsible thing. I apologise.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:31 am

I haven't read the thread.
I'd forgotten the US election, I came to my computer and turned it on.
I remembered and looked at the news.
For less than thirty seconds.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:32 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Families win supreme court appeals over 'unfair' bedroom tax
Panel upholds claim of Jacqueline Carmichael who is disabled and carers Paul and Susan Rutherford against housing law

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:35 am

I've no choice but to conclude a large proportion of people are off their heads, seriously.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:39 am

How am I accept such a person as President of the US? How? He provides no responsible leadership or even a minute of rational conversation.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:39 am

oh my god

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:40 am

Brendan Cox ‏@MrBrendanCox 4h4 hours ago
Jo & I talked about #Trump winning & what we would do. Right now she'd say 'don't mourn, organise' & reassert what we hold in common.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:45 am

Marine Le Pen's Front National issues chilling warning over Donald Trump win: 'Their world is collapsing. Ours is being built'
'Today the United States, tomorrow France!' writes vice president Florian Philippot

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 06426.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The right rises.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Morning all
The one thing I keep holding onto is the memory of how devastating living through Thatcher and Reagan victories felt, but I carried on, had my kids and the world, thankfully, didn't destroy itself.

Not much really but it has to be sufficient for today.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:10 am

Tweets by George Freeman MP at top of Guardian's politics blog making the same point I've been trying to make, but doing so more articulately.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:16 am

Womble44 wrote:Tweets by George Freeman MP at top of Guardian's politics blog making the same point I've been trying to make, but doing so more articulately.

It's ok down to 7.

8. At its heart this is about a broken 'contract' thru the failure of globalised market economics to serve the interests of domestic workers

11. This is the challenge @theresa_may brilliantly captured in her electrifying conference speech. #21stC Conservatism.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:21 am

fedup59 wrote:Morning all
The one thing I keep holding onto is the memory of how devastating living through Thatcher and Reagan victories felt, but I carried on, had my kids and the world, thankfully, didn't destroy itself.

Not much really but it has to be sufficient for today.

Thank you. I literally breathed easier having read your post. I can take breaths. Okay, good.
Thatcher and Reagan could string some sense together, even if I disagreed with them. They
were mostly sane when they led badly.

Who can voluntarily choose this person?

I can't look at more news away from here yet, everyone. Soon, not yet.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:22 am

Ha! Yes I hope no one thought I supported May!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:22 am

I'm going to read the thread from the start now.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:24 am

Ricky Gervais ‏@rickygervais 2h2 hours ago
Canada has just started building a wall.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:25 am

That is a very expensive few words added to regulations of bedroom tax,three and half years later.I hope tax payers are suitably grateful in such resilience not to.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:27 am

Jeremy Corbyn:

"Many in Britain and elsewhere will be understandably shocked by Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election, the rhetoric around it and what the election result means for the rest of the world, as well as America.

Trump’s election is an unmistakable rejection of a political establishment and an economic system that simply isn’t working for most people. It is one that has delivered escalating inequality and stagnating or falling living standards for the majority, both in the US and Britain.

This is a rejection of a failed economic consensus and a governing elite that has been seen not to have listened. And the public anger that has propelled Donald Trump to office has been reflected in political upheavals across the world.

But some of Trump’s answers to the big questions facing America, and the divisive rhetoric around them, are clearly wrong.

I have no doubt, however, that the decency and common sense of the American people will prevail, and we send our solidarity to a nation of migrants, innovators and democrats.

After this latest global wake up call, the need for a real alternative to a failed economic and political system could not be clearer.

That alternative must be based on working together, social justice and economic renewal, rather than sowing fear and division. And the solutions we offer have to improve the lives of everyone, not pit one group of people against another.

Americans have made their choice. The urgent necessity is now for us all to work across continents to tackle our common global challenges: to secure peace, take action on climate change and deliver economic prosperity and justice."

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

He ain't no Reagan-Trump

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:42 am

Nicola Adams MBEVerified account
‏@NicolaAdamsMBE
Ooooohhh so this is how it happened #Trump

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unbelievable

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

Don't know what's on page one of today but whatever it is my work filter blocks it because of 'intolerance'.

(Tries desperately to avoid a comment about 'just that page after all this time?') (Fails.)

Trump will shut the fuck up about most of his extremes, appoint a bunch of faceless Chicago boys to destroy anything that's left of the humanist liberal consensus of the post war 20th Century whilst dancing his dance out front to draw fire. Goodbye any form of even mildly socialised healthcare, back to the insurance companies for you, goodbye any reproductive rights, goodbye any environmental legislation, goodbye public schooling, hello charter schools everywhere, hello flat tax, goodbye regulation.

Sanders isn't even a liberal democrat, he would have been destroyed under the spotlight of a general election campaign by a fundamentally anti-liberal left majority in the US. But she was a bad candidate for all of the reasons lots of people have given above.

The press have been strangely silent about the fact that Clinton was moving away and clear until the FBI came calling again and took the spotlight off of the many ways Trump was disgracing himself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:00 pm

Looking like Clinton is actually going to win the popular vote, though even that is a rather bitter pill right now.

As for what a Trump presidency will actually be like, there has to be a good chance that congress goes Dem in two years - especially if he is anything like as bad as so many (justifiably) fear.

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:03 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:As for what a Trump presidency will actually be like, there has to be a good chance that congress goes Dem in two years - especially if he is anything like as bad as so many (justifiably) fear.

The senate on any other year, but it's the cycle for a very strong democrat year in 2012.

The house, not without a major redistricting. The Dems can win by several points on the national vote for congress and still lose by a mile.

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looking like Clinton is actually going to win the popular vote, though even that is a rather bitter pill right now.

There is (and has been for a while) a movement afoot by a range of (broadly dem.) states to form a bloc that will pledge to (and legislate) always vote for the candidate in the presidential election that received the majority vote in the country, regardless of their local vote, if it was necessary to do so to make sure they didn't lose. It may well come to nothing but it's interesting that it was already an issue.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:07 pm

adam wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:As for what a Trump presidency will actually be like, there has to be a good chance that congress goes Dem in two years - especially if he is anything like as bad as so many (justifiably) fear.
The senate on any other year, but it's the cycle for a very strong democrat year in 2012.

The house, not without a major redistricting. The Dems can win by several points on the national vote for congress and still lose by a mile.

Dems could still do it given how godawful the next few years are likely going to be.

And if, of course, they draw the right lessons - one of which is this could be the final death blow for top down technocratic elitist "liberal" centrism?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:17 pm

This won't cheer anyone up, but it's a splendid effort and worth sharing:

http://www.b3ta.com/board/11212886" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:33 pm

Corbyn demonstrating how unelectable(TM) he is by not giving Trump a metaphorical fluffing like the Tories are all doing today.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:35 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Corbyn demonstrating how unelectable(TM) he is by not giving Trump a metaphorical fluffing like the Tories are all doing today.

I think Corbyn has pitched it exactly right

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:36 pm

I take a sort of grim amusement in both Hodges and McTernan continuing their recent record as peerless electoral sages.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I take a sort of grim amusement in both Hodges and McTernan continuing their recent record as peerless electoral sages.

I'd be interested in your view why the polls got this one so wrong.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm

Womble44 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Corbyn demonstrating how unelectable(TM) he is by not giving Trump a metaphorical fluffing like the Tories are all doing today.
I think Corbyn has pitched it exactly right

Me too. On the right side of diplomatic while also being highly critical.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looking like Clinton is actually going to win the popular vote, though even that is a rather bitter pill right now.

(cJA edit)

It's painful, yes.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:47 pm

Womble44 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I take a sort of grim amusement in both Hodges and McTernan continuing their recent record as peerless electoral sages.
I'd be interested in your view why the polls got this one so wrong.

It looks like they weren't *that* wrong in national terms. Some state surveys were badly out, though.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:49 pm

Temulkar wrote:The Democrats have only themselves to blame, they stabbed Bernie in the back to get Hilary to the nomination, and it cost them the election. I wonder if Saving Labour will learn the lesson...

You can't and don't know what would have been the outcome of a Saunders-Trump contest.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:52 pm

adam wrote:Don't know what's on page one of today but whatever it is my work filter blocks it because of 'intolerance'.

Someone mentioned The Simpsons.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:53 pm

Sanders would have struggled against Trump as well IMO.

Where the Dems went wrong was thinking they could get things back to "business as usual" once his insurgency had been seen off, rather than thinking properly about why it happened.

And yes, that at least certainly has relevance over here.

(and part of that was HRC making such an uninspired and in every sense conservative choice of running mate, at least Pence was an attempt to counter some percieved Donald negatives)

Post by **refitman** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:54 pm

There's some good discussion about events on the rugby site I visit: https://www.aodrugby.com/2016/11/08/so- ... ent-284672" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From this post onwards.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
adam wrote:Don't know what's on page one of today but whatever it is my work filter blocks it because of 'intolerance'.
Someone mentioned The Simpsons.

The reference to pussy grabbing perhaps? If adam can no longer read this page then it's that

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:57 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Sanders would have struggled against Trump as well IMO.

Where the Dems went wrong was thinking they could get things back to "business as usual" once his insurgency had been seen off, rather than thinking properly about why it happened.

And yes, that at least certainly has relevance over here.

(and part of that was HRC making such an uninspired and in every sense conservative choice of running mate, at least Pence was an attempt to counter some percieved Donald negatives)

Again, not wanting to bang the Warren drum but she was the perfect bridge to the Sanders supporters. Trump's sexist comments become doubly damaging.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 12:58 pm

fedup59 wrote:Morning all
The one thing I keep holding onto is the memory of how devastating living through Thatcher and Reagan victories felt, but I carried on, had my kids and the world, thankfully, didn't destroy itself.

Not much really but it has to be sufficient for today.

My husband's got a good phrase for such occasions. He says things are rarely as good as you hope they'll be, and usually not as bad as you fear they may be.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:00 pm

Tory George Freeman:

Number 10 policymakers are already viewing the result through the same prism as Brexit. The head of the No 10 policy board, George Freeman, tweeted: “at its heart this is about a broken contract through the failure of globalised market economics to serve the interests of domestic workers.”

He said the result was “a stunning demonstration of how disempowered low income Americans feel by Washington politics and globalisation”. “The insurgency is a big test for the constitutional protections for liberty and democracy in the UK and the US. It is clear we are living through a genuine crisis of legitimacy sweeping through western political economy”.

Note how this is already being spun: politics and globalisation. Not disdain and avarice. It's the 'elite' that are wrong, not what made them the 'elite' in the first place. Say goodbye to one elite, say hello to the next one America, because you've just been conned.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:01 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Nicola Adams MBEVerified account
‏@NicolaAdamsMBE
Ooooohhh so this is how it happened #Trump

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unbelievable

How the hell do you begin to tackle those ideas ?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:02 pm

Burying the bad news pt.3:

Sainsbury’s warns of uncertainty on prices as first-half sales fall - the guardian
https://apple.news/ANyYCBXOlT2ScMzSVJnSY_A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:04 pm

Burying the bad news pt.4:

UK trade deficit widens unexpectedly as exports fall despite pound drop
Goods trade deficit rose £1.6bn to £12.7bn with exports falling by £200m to £26.1bn despite fall in Sterling after Brexit vote
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... pound-drop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:04 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looking like Clinton is actually going to win the popular vote, though even that is a rather bitter pill right now.

As for what a Trump presidency will actually be like, there has to be a good chance that congress goes Dem in two years - especially if he is anything like as bad as so many (justifiably) fear.

So she'll represent the mystical 'will of the people'' ?