Saturday 18th & Sunday 19th February 2017

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:45 pm

seeingclearly wrote:i cannot see Theresa May turning, right or wrong, on the issue of the single market, she shows no signs of deviating from her stated position, not one whit. And the people she appeases are baying not just for cutting all european ties, a lot of them haven't the foggiest, or are being educated on the fly. And would like to see the downfall of one of the basic three wings of democratic government, and are loudly vociferous about it. And the right wing groups are multiplying and becoming more pernicious, UKIP scandals notwithstanding. We need unity against all this.

We need arguments to convince voters that a Tory hard Brexit is a mistake, so they are willing to vote for pro-single market parties in 2020. The demonstration I linked to above is an example of standing up to the idea that leaving the single market is a good idea. It clearly isn't for Northern Ireland.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:51 pm

It is not all about Brexit. We need rid of this travesty of a government, full of people who are experts of nothing and vandals of all. Without that Brexit will happen, it likely will be hard as our democracy has been reduced to a shell. That is the reality.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 6:53 pm

I cannot remember a demonstration, a petition, or any action in fact that has changed a thing. The only thing that has made a difference is Tories thinking they will lose votes. Another reality.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:00 pm

Attendance Allowance abolition dropped.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:03 pm

Previously Carers Allowance abolition as stand alone,dropped.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:06 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:So the benefits cuts proposals were the sole, main, or even significant reason why the Tories won the 2015 election?

I think not.

Many more were stampeded into voting Tory by the Great Scots Scare (strange how that is almost forgotten now) Or the relentless drumbeat of the previous five years (legitimised by the LibDems as well as Tories, never forget) that Labour "caused the crash through overspending"/"maxed out the national credit card". I would even be pretty sure more votes were decided by Ed Miliband looking a bit funny eating a bacon sandwich.

(that was what the Currant Bun had on their polling day front page after all, not "vote Tory to take more money off already poor people")

But the referendum was about *one* thing - whether to withdraw from the European Union. And, unfortunately, the majority said yes.

I distinctly remember PF's concern over the strange Salmond as puppeteer video. How right she was.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:07 pm

Vigilant,get in early,reply to consultations,inform MP etc.I have no idea how much,or indeed any,effect of doing such things has on stopping them happening.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:22 pm

HindleA wrote:Vigilant,get in early,reply to consultations,inform MP etc.I have no idea how much,or indeed any,effect of doing such things has on stopping them happening.

Can't hurt, anyway
Good suggestion

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:24 pm

Donald Trump can criticise the 'mainstream media' all he likes, the press will continue to do its job brilliantly
Trump’s constant remarks about ‘fake news’ and ‘dishonest journalists’ can’t change the fact that the press is working tirelessly to hold the White House to account
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/don ... 87546.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Am jealous of the US press.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:27 pm

Paris authorities order volunteers to stop distributing food to refugees
Volunteers told food distribution is 'banned' in the area outside Porte de La Chapelle reception centre days after Mayor's Office places boulders preventing refugees sleeping under nearby bridge
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 84351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how very Westminster

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:27 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:So the benefits cuts proposals were the sole, main, or even significant reason why the Tories won the 2015 election?

I think not.

Many more were stampeded into voting Tory by the Great Scots Scare (strange how that is almost forgotten now) Or the relentless drumbeat of the previous five years (legitimised by the LibDems as well as Tories, never forget) that Labour "caused the crash through overspending"/"maxed out the national credit card". I would even be pretty sure more votes were decided by Ed Miliband looking a bit funny eating a bacon sandwich.

(that was what the Currant Bun had on their polling day front page after all, not "vote Tory to take more money off already poor people")

But the referendum was about *one* thing - whether to withdraw from the European Union. And, unfortunately, the majority said yes.
I distinctly PF's concern over the strange Salmond as puppeteer video. How right she was.

All kinds of money spent on advertising. The best psychological manipulation money can buy.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:41 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 87656.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
University debts so high students are suffering 'increased mental health problems' and 'can't afford food'
Exclusive: One in seven students have been chased by debt collectors after being unable to pay rent

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:44 pm

HindleA wrote:Vigilant,get in early,reply to consultations,inform MP etc.I have no idea how much,or indeed any,effect of doing such things has on stopping them happening.

The hard fought, well run campaigns fought by disability groups, backed up by reports, addressing the issues with repeated reminders of the consequences of changes and the ongoing perseverance in reminding elected members of both houses, and government when those consequences occur have been the only effective opposition I have seen. But even that has resulted in only minor concessions, and has taken a huge toll on the energies of those already unwell or dealing with disabling conditions ( I would say government is a large contributing factor).

Labour could have been effective if they had taken democracy itself as their startpoint, and it is that more than anything that fundamentally disappoints. That there are people who would trade in honour, responsibility and our rights for a chance to be higher up the heap than others.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 7:58 pm

Well,the two mentioned were stopped in their tracks;a very close call for CA under the simplification/UC ruse,estimates were made as to savings etc.Sometimes pre-emption is called for.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:08 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Paris authorities order volunteers to stop distributing food to refugees
Volunteers told food distribution is 'banned' in the area outside Porte de La Chapelle reception centre days after Mayor's Office places boulders preventing refugees sleeping under nearby bridge
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 84351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
how very Westminster

Give people some place other than bridges to domicile and provide sufficient rations. Anything else is absurd. What the hell good is money and shelves filled with whatever if it means some people live in precarious, degraded conditions?

At Labour party conference in Coventry (2014), I met two young people attending Keele University. One young man described the necessity of making sure everyone had safe shelter, food, medical care. He understood some wouldn't take that offer and others may wreck some havoc but neither were insurmountable problems nor justification for not making the resources available. The simplicity and coherence of his language puts my own efforts here describing it to shame. However, I've tried and you get the general idea.

If there's concern about the safety of food distributed, clear notification to volunteers feeding their brothers/sisters must be made and alternative food distribution made available. It's harder to treat food poisoning than it is to provide wholesome food, I concede that point.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:21 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08dnhjx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Borderland
Drama

By Sarah Woods

A dark vision of a near-future in which the United Kingdom is divided by borders.

In the not so distant future, the UK has fragmented. Layla and her daughter are on a desperate mission across borders from England, through Wales and over the Irish Sea.

Based on the stories and experiences of real refugees, Borderland is a thriller about what it means to be a displaced person in the 21st Century. It explores the rise of the UK's various nationalisms via a nightmare future. But it also offers a unique perspective on the urgent issue of global migration - by giving British listeners a taste of what it might be like to be pushed to leave your home, in a desperate search for a better life.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:21 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
HindleA wrote:Vigilant,get in early,reply to consultations,inform MP etc.I have no idea how much,or indeed any,effect of doing such things has on stopping them happening.

The hard fought, well run campaigns fought by disability groups, backed up by reports, addressing the issues with repeated reminders of the consequences of changes and the ongoing perseverance in reminding elected members of both houses, and government when those consequences occur have been the only effective opposition I have seen. But even that has resulted in only minor concessions, and has taken a huge toll on the energies of those already unwell or dealing with disabling conditions ( I would say government is a large contributing factor).

Labour could have been effective if they had taken democracy itself as their startpoint, and it is that more than anything that fundamentally disappoints. That there are people who would trade in honour, responsibility and our rights for a chance to be higher up the heap than others.

(cJA emphasis)

They're fools requiring reminders of their duty as well as enjoying the delights of human existence. No one is higher or lower than another. It's impossible. Some people are born with more resources and attain positions of power. The greater the fortune and power, the larger responsibility for those sharing this life's journey together.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:25 pm

I was taught this as a child by teachers, not my parents.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:47 pm

Pollsters herding

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stoke looks certainly safe, Copeland probably

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 8:57 pm

Racism and sexism stem from 'optical illusion' in brain that is 'part of human condition', academic says
But recognising the problem exists can help overcome prejudice and institutional bias with one university reporting stunning results in improving graduation rates among poor, ethnic minority students
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 87716.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Human beings have a hidden, “implicit bias” against those who appear to be different that makes them prone to fearing large black men, thinking maths is a ‘male’ subject or holding a number of other culturally defined prejudices, academics have said.

However, by recognising the problem and taking steps to address it, society can be transformed dramatically for the better.

Does seem a bit at odds with rare colour preference theory.
http://news.artsci.utoronto.ca/all-news ... d-females/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:27 pm

citizenJA wrote:I was taught this as a child by teachers, not my parents.

But quite a lot of people apparently do not get the message.

In reality acceptance of responsibility is by no means a certainty. Or can be rewritten to apply only to certain people. Same goes for justice. And indeed for rights. The outcomes we look for from our democratic institutions. Executive. Judicial. Legislative. So we cannot just abandon its processes without good cause. I am not of the same mind as some here who say that it is all just a matter of money. The law has been altered to absolve government of responsibility. Legislated for and passed into law. And to prosecute the unprosecutable for political ends. Under normal circumstances this would not have happened. We do not live in normal times. But there is widespread denial of this though I see posted here daily a veritable litany of events that bear evidence of such things, and the human costs, while few even discuss or comment. While what wa once a nation that had parties which were broadly on the same track, conservative, liberal, labour, once had a consensus to create a better country, albeit different visions of how to achieve it. That is gone, and what we have is a venal bunch. Be clear on things, you cannot be venal and be ethical or moral at the same time. Though you can pretend to be.

Of course this is not a personal argument. It is an overview. I don't come here often to express my views, but today I was moved by Pauls post. A death rate that has more or less doubled since 2013. To me that is a lot of blood on the hands of those in power. But No sense at all of those promised virtues of transparency, accountability, good governance we (not all) were fooled by in 2010, no lessons learned in 2015, and we are six years ahead of our fellow humans in the US, but mostly still cannot see it.

But brexit, brexit, brexit.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:31 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Racism and sexism stem from 'optical illusion' in brain that is 'part of human condition', academic says
But recognising the problem exists can help overcome prejudice and institutional bias with one university reporting stunning results in improving graduation rates among poor, ethnic minority students
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 87716.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Human beings have a hidden, “implicit bias” against those who appear to be different that makes them prone to fearing large black men, thinking maths is a ‘male’ subject or holding a number of other culturally defined prejudices, academics have said.

However, by recognising the problem and taking steps to address it, society can be transformed dramatically for the better.
Does seem a bit at odds with rare colour preference theory.
http://news.artsci.utoronto.ca/all-news ... d-females/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guppies apparently more intelligent and culturally advanced.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:31 pm

Trump rally covered by Sky News,CNN maybe more,for those interested from 10pm.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 9:43 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:13 pm

Tomorrow's MoS front page

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:18 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Tomorrow's MoS front page

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 10:24 pm

EU citizens living in the UK could face legal limbo after Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tain-chaos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top orchestra quits Britain over Brexit migration clampdown

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:04 pm

HindleA wrote:EU citizens living in the UK could face legal limbo after Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tain-chaos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top orchestra quits Britain over Brexit migration clampdown

Hmm, I've never heard of the European
Union Baroque Orchestra, but if it's just it's administrative headquarters that are in Oxford, then is it that big a deal? The article covers other orchestras, musicians etc as well, so not arguing against gist of it, but the specific example looks a bit odd.
(not that i've heard of many orchestras to be honest)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:10 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Pollsters herding

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stoke looks certainly safe, Copeland probably

Good news from Copeland, if so. Stoke was always safe, I think. Lots of work done by some people in both places, I think.

I do notice that the leader's stated ability to "draw crowds" isn't much utilized during Parliamentary elections. You'd think it were the perfect opportunity for "face time", as Rhea Wolfson calls it. On the other hand, we did see a lot of him speaking to crowds when running for the leadership. Make of that what you will.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:53 pm

Far-right leader Geert Wilders calls Moroccan migrants ‘scum’
The leader of the populist Freedom party went on to tell supporters to ‘make the Netherlands ours again’
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... um-holland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heartily sick of bigots.
Farage with his Huguenot ancestry; Wilders with his Indonesian mother.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:55 pm

However, even if Wilders wins, he would struggle to form a government because most major parties have ruled out joining a coalition with him, viewing his policies as offensive or unconstitutional. The fragmented political landscape means a coalition government of four or more parties is now all but inevitable.

The sooner we get PR the better. Perhaps we should focus on that.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:57 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... tch-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lincoln City topple Burnley as Sean Raggett seals historic FA Cup shock

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Feb, 2017 11:58 pm

Dwight Yorke, the former Manchester United striker, was “made to feel like a criminal” as he was denied entry to the United States on Friday.

Yorke said he was prevented from entering the country due to an Iranian stamp on his passport having represented the ‘World Stars’ in a charity match against ‘Iranian Stars’ in Tehran in 2015.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -entry-usa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 12:36 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... tch-report
Lincoln City topple Burnley as Sean Raggett seals historic FA Cup shock

Poor Joey Barton

Post by **adam** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 12:44 am

Why some Tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years Andrew Rawnsley

When that senior Tory confided his anxiety that public disorder could break out in the next 24 months, my first response was to think him hyperbolic. Then I considered it further. More and deeper spending cuts for as far as the eye can see. Accompanied by rising taxes. Plus another crunch on living standards. With the risk that an economic shock could turn an extremely challenging outlook into a really grisly one. I now think it not at all unreasonable to worry that there will be blood on the streets.

May will be going into the 2020 election on a platform of tax haven UK, private health insurance and health service fees and massive cuts to public services across the board. She'll probably win.

Edited to add - Larkin, final stanza of Going Going

Most things are never meant.
This won't be, most likely; but greeds
And garbage are too thick-strewn
To be swept up now, or invent
Excuses that make them all needs.
I just think it will happen, soon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 8:36 am

Another apostate
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ver-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:03 am

On the people's will argument
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12338/full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:09 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/12m- ... w-recruits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press release
£12m pay boost to strengthen prison frontline and attract new recruits

Post by **adam** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:15 am

I have said before that I think there are real dangers in ignoring the results of referenda, even advisory ones, but that this doesn't mean you have to give up or leap in and help.

In a sense, Labour are doing everything that the Liberal Democrats did wrong in 2010-15 (and still are until they acknowledge this). "We are not in control so all we can do is give them what they want and make their plans run smoothy." (Except the Lib Dems would actually have brought things to a halt by withdrawing their support and Labour almost certainly wouldn't.)

The problem does revert back to useless Cameron and his useless binary referendum. I am sure I am repeating myself again but before the Scot's independence vote we had a string of white papers, consultation papers and just a simple clear address of the issues that would be relevant after the vote. This time it didn't even seem to occur to anybody that if Leave won, they wouldn't then be in charge, but the administration and execution of the vote would be left to the government who had campaigned against it.

Labour should have consistently said what they consistently said during the campaign (and I know this is a more contentious point but having seen McDonald, talked to people who'd seen Corbyn and paid attention to the news, I saw Labour's leadership consistently saying 'we must vote remain' without any question at all). They should have carried on saying that this was politically, culturally, socially and economically disastrous for the country and they should have had nothing to do with the process other than opposing - jumping on every headline about what might be going wrong, pointing out every worry about the future, expanding every gap in the government's thinking into the voids that they are. Acting as active busy enablers and then saying 'the fight starts now' after the process is done is pathetic.

The other side of this is that, as with the referendum vote, so with Labour's leadership, context is not a myth. Corbyn is in charge for as long as he chooses to be - I can't see any other interpretation of the two leadership elections that have happened. His initial election might have been a foregone conclusion by the time that it happened but even the idea was an absurdity when he first got himself nominated - but Labour's supporters and potential supporters looked at their party's putative leadership and saw them just surrender about everything that mattered. Corbyn won because Harmon, Burnham, Cooper, Kendall and all told the party's voters that the Mail and Telegraph were right about what Labour needed to be and the party's voters disagreed.

Corbyn over Europe has decided that the Mail and the Telegraph are right about what Labour needs to be. If I were a member I would have left.

The liberal democrats are no answer at all and whenever I actually hear them locally I disagree about too much of what Green politicians say. I'm left shouting 'wanker' from the sidelines and feeling totally disenfranchised.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:16 am

Interesting graph

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:24 am

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... fail-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fears of ‘dirty meat’ entering food chain after 25% of abattoirs fail tests

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:26 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ilout-euro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

‘From bad to worse’: Greece hurtles towards a final reckoning

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:31 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rida-rally" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trump attacks 'dishonest media' while making false claims at Florida rally

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:33 am

UKIP campaigning for Nuttall went to Bolton to have their picture taken for some reason.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:35 am

Guy from rally invited to talk announced as National Security Advisor.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... akim-behaj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MI6 chief’s role in abduction of Gaddafi foe Belhaj set to be revealed

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... rd-saatchi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS royal commission should assess long-term future, says Lord Saatchi

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:46 am

https://www.bma.org.uk/connecting-docto ... mgdoctors=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the poor get ‘managed’ off waiting lists

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 9:48 am

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-19/russ ... -minister/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Russia plotted to overthrow Montenegro's government by assassinating prime minister'

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 19 Feb, 2017 10:00 am

adam wrote:I have said before that I think there are real dangers in ignoring the results of referenda, even advisory ones, but that this doesn't mean you have to give up or leap in and help.

In a sense, Labour are doing everything that the Liberal Democrats did wrong in 2010-15 (and still are until they acknowledge this). "We are not in control so all we can do is give them what they want and make their plans run smoothy." (Except the Lib Dems would actually have brought things to a halt by withdrawing their support and Labour almost certainly wouldn't.)

The problem does revert back to useless Cameron and his useless binary referendum. I am sure I am repeating myself again but before the Scot's independence vote we had a string of white papers, consultation papers and just a simple clear address of the issues that would be relevant after the vote. This time it didn't even seem to occur to anybody that if Leave won, they wouldn't then be in charge, but the administration and execution of the vote would be left to the government who had campaigned against it.

Labour should have consistently said what they consistently said during the campaign (and I know this is a more contentious point but having seen McDonald, talked to people who'd seen Corbyn and paid attention to the news, I saw Labour's leadership consistently saying 'we must vote remain' without any question at all). They should have carried on saying that this was politically, culturally, socially and economically disastrous for the country and they should have had nothing to do with the process other than opposing - jumping on every headline about what might be going wrong, pointing out every worry about the future, expanding every gap in the government's thinking into the voids that they are. Acting as active busy enablers and then saying 'the fight starts now' after the process is done is pathetic.

The other side of this is that, as with the referendum vote, so with Labour's leadership, context is not a myth. Corbyn is in charge for as long as he chooses to be - I can't see any other interpretation of the two leadership elections that have happened. His initial election might have been a foregone conclusion by the time that it happened but even the idea was an absurdity when he first got himself nominated - but Labour's supporters and potential supporters looked at their party's putative leadership and saw them just surrender about everything that mattered. Corbyn won because Harmon, Burnham, Cooper, Kendall and all told the party's voters that the Mail and Telegraph were right about what Labour needed to be and the party's voters disagreed.

Corbyn over Europe has decided that the Mail and the Telegraph are right about what Labour needs to be. If I were a member I would have left.

The liberal democrats are no answer at all and whenever I actually hear them locally I disagree about too much of what Green politicians say. I'm left shouting 'wanker' from the sidelines and feeling totally disenfranchised.

What specifically have the Greens said that prevents you voting for them? Is it central to their message?