Friday 5th April 2017

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:34 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... top-tories

The Lib Dems’ failure to surge makes voting Labour on 8 June more vital
Abi Wilkinson

Right let's get on with it!

The real fight starts now?

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:48 pm

Andy Street has won West Midlands Mayoralty

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:51 pm

Bugger it.

Sorry Jeremy, you're toxic - too late to do anything about it before the GE but as soon as Labour have lost then I expect you to step aside. And don't even think about standing again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:53 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Yes. I really dont see this.

Andy "riots on the streets, posh coffee" Burnham and his new found love of the Stone Roses seems to me to reflect much of what is wrong with Labour (outside Corbyn).
Good in government, good on Hillsborough. He just lacked bravery at key points. He should have told Harman to piss off.

I can agree with you 100% on this at least.

Said it before, and will now do so again - if May does get her landslide next month, the FIRST person she should thank (even before Jez) is Harman.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:56 pm

Whoops ! Sky News hedging their bets

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 4:59 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Bugger it.

Sorry Jeremy, you're toxic - too late to do anything about it before the GE but as soon as Labour have lost then I expect you to step aside. And don't even think about standing again.

If its the W Mids result that has brought this on - make no mistake it wasn't just Jez to blame, but our candidate.

We could have done so much better than Simon - but no, the egregious Watson had to have his puppet in place. Another bit of "clever" fixing from him gone wrong

Corbyn probably does have to go after June 8, but so does his deputy. And you can chuck in McNicol (another TW drone) to make it a full set whilst you're at it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:04 pm

pk1 wrote:Andy Street has won West Midlands Mayoralty

goddamn

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:06 pm

Glad to see some really happy posters on here today...such pleasant reading

Wonderful to know that changing the leader will solve all Labour problems.

Also we should be shouting loudly for Remain like the LD because that is the A50 vote was the reason Labour failed to take back UKIP votes

Can I hesitate to suggest that the reasons for Labour stagnating since 2010 may be slightly more wide ranging than just who is the leader and that a sustainable solution to the problems Labour have had sinc 2010 may need a bit more consideration?

The Tories have managed to destroy 2 parties since 2010....the LD were hammered in 2015 and it's UKIPs turn now....where we ever going to get UKIP votes back when the Tories have turned into UKIP?

Labour didn't manage to get LD votes in 2010 but whose fault was that? Corbyns?

Then there is the mythical soft Tory voter...where do these exist? When was the last time they voted Labour....2005? 2001? Seems harsh to blame Corbyn for failing to attract these people....

Trump and Le Pen show a worldwide change in how voters are seeing things which is why a comparison of the performance of parties in previous elections is problematic....2017 is not a normal year!

At least Labour got more than the 20% predicted by one of our most gleeful posters last week

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:06 pm

Sorry citizenJA.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:09 pm

t

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Bugger it.

Sorry Jeremy, you're toxic - too late to do anything about it before the GE but as soon as Labour have lost then I expect you to step aside. And don't even think about standing again.
If its the W Mids result that has brought this on - make no mistake it wasn't just Jez to blame, but our candidate.

We could have done so much better than Simon - but no, the egregious Watson had to have his puppet in place. Another bit of "clever" fixing from him gone wrong

Corbyn probably does have to go after June 8, but so does his deputy. And you can chuck in McNicol (another TW drone) to make it a full set whilst you're at it.

Simon was ok, Street was a really good candidate. Len didn't help much throwing a hissy fit and withdrawing funding. Given Labour was hammered everywhere in the midlands trying to pin this on the mayoral candidate is poor.

People who have to go post election are pretty much the entire Corbynista cabal, McDonnell, Abbot and particularly tossers like Milne and Fischer.

Angela Raynor being a rare bright spot in a collection of dullards.

TW is disliked primarily because he has stopped some of the more outrageous behaviour of Corbyn et al. I don't much like him, but I shudder to think of the mess we would be in without Watson and McNicol.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:09 pm

@yahyah

Hello, there!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:10 pm

Interesting that the corpse that is Scottish Labour has shown a few twitches.

They are actually the biggest party in a handful of councils (last night Salmond very confidently predicted they would lead in none) and the Nats failed to take outright control of Glasgow (which was, again, widely predicted) In fact it looks like not a single mainland Scottish council has a majority party

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:12 pm

Street won 238,628 votes and Simon 234,862.
Street – whose high-profile campaign is reported to have cost about £1m – gave up his £800,000-a-year career to take part in the race for the mayor of the West Midlands combined authority.
It became the most closely fought contest in the country, with turnout figures higher than expected at more than 26%.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ndy-street" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(cJA emphasis)

woo hoo
what a mandate
proud of taking elections using only tiny fractions of the electorate's total number

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:12 pm

Is Sion Simon losing just all down to Corbyn...?

Does having Corbyn as leader absolve all responsibility from the individual candidates.....seems a bit of easy scapegoating to me

Same as 2015 when it was all Milibands fault.....

Perhaps a new leader is needed after election...we will see but if the British like leaders such as May and her attitude to insulting the EU then I am not sure who we will have

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:12 pm

PorFavor wrote:@yahyah

Hello, there!

hello, yahyah!

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:14 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Glad to see some really happy posters on here today...such pleasant reading

Wonderful to know that changing the leader will solve all Labour problems.

Also we should be shouting loudly for Remain like the LD because that is the A50 vote was the reason Labour failed to take back UKIP votes

Can I hesitate to suggest that the reasons for Labour stagnating since 2010 may be slightly more wide ranging than just who is the leader and that a sustainable solution to the problems Labour have had sinc 2010 may need a bit more consideration?

The Tories have managed to destroy 2 parties since 2010....the LD were hammered in 2015 and it's UKIPs turn now....where we ever going to get UKIP votes back when the Tories have turned into UKIP?

Labour didn't manage to get LD votes in 2010 but whose fault was that? Corbyns?

Then there is the mythical soft Tory voter...where do these exist? When was the last time they voted Labour....2005? 2001? Seems harsh to blame Corbyn for failing to attract these people....

Trump and Le Pen show a worldwide change in how voters are seeing things which is why a comparison of the performance of parties in previous elections is problematic....2017 is not a normal year!

At least Labour got more than the 20% predicted by one of our most gleeful posters last week

Strawman rubbish. The current leader is toxic, nobody pretends ditching him is any more than start of a very long road back.

The lesson here is the polls are right, 20% is the floor but still entirely possible given the usual underperforming of Labour nationals versus locals.

And yes we are delighted at the prospect of a Tory victory even bigger and better than 1983. NOT. We have to live here, unlike you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:15 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is Sion Simon losing just all down to Corbyn...?

Does having Corbyn as leader absolve all responsibility from the individual candidates.....seems a bit of easy scapegoating to me

Same as 2015 when it was all Milibands fault.....

Perhaps a new leader is needed after election...we will see but if the British like leaders such as May and her attitude to insulting the EU then I am not sure who we will have

I never and will never blame Corbyn for Simon's electoral defeat

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:15 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
People who have to go post election are pretty much the entire Corbynista cabal, McDonnell, Abbot and particularly tossers like Milne and Fischer

McDonnell actually has ability, unfortunately it is outweighed by his toxicty.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:17 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Interesting that the corpse that is Scottish Labour has shown a few twitches.

They are actually the biggest party in a handful of councils (last night Salmond very confidently predicted they would lead in none) and the Nats failed to take outright control of Glasgow (which was, again, widely predicted) In fact it looks like not a single mainland Scottish council has a majority party

Scotland and Wales have performed better than expected. It isn't much, but it is something.

The Lib Dems are a shock. I didn't expect to see them losing seats.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:19 pm

Street paid good money to be a good candidate

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:22 pm

Oh and sorry TE, but Simon *is* rubbish - the absolute dregs.

Think of the worst, most thuggish machine politician aspects of Watson without any of his redeeming features and you are roughly there.

A decent candidate could have won it for us despite both Corbyn and the (more than a tad dubious) spending spree of Street.

The one I really feel sorry for is our (very good) candidate in Tees Valley, however. Done over by some very cynical tactics from the local LibDems

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:22 pm

Where I live is of no matter.....you nasty little creature

I am a UK voter and member of the party so don't tell me whether I can have an opinion or not. A bit Teresa May I think.....

Your posts are just rants with no sense....reminds me of a man in the pub just going on and on assuming their opinions and prejudices are right

Changing leader is the only answer you have.....i just suggest the reasons are more complex and the destruction of the LD and UKIP in England by the Tories and the descent of Scotland into Nationalist v Unionist is not something we have seen before

Keep ranting demonstrating our monomania but just allow some people to have more sober reflection

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:22 pm

Willow904 wrote:Sorry citizenJA.

Me too.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:27 pm

From the G live blog:

Corbyn says Labour has had 'difficult results', but claims some have been 'very good'

Jeremy Corbyn has been speaking to Labour supporters in Liverpool. He told them:

"We’ve had some difficult results overnight. Some have been very good. We’ve gained seats in some places, we’ve held councils that many predicted we wouldn’t. And others, unfortunately, have not been elected. I want to use this opportunity thank every Labour candidate and every party worker and supporter for the incredible effort they’ve put in in the past few weeks in this election.

We’ve now got four weeks until the general election. Four weeks to get a message out there. Pensioners do not have to live in fear of their pensions being cut in the future because the government will not protect the triple lock. People don’t have to be living on appalling wages, through zero-hours contracts or minimum wage only, 6m earning less then the living wage. Labour will change all of that. And Labour will invest in a growing economy, an economy that works for all."

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:27 pm

Cut out the rudeness to each other, please.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:28 pm

Its actually five weeks (minus a day)

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:32 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
People who have to go post election are pretty much the entire Corbynista cabal, McDonnell, Abbot and particularly tossers like Milne and Fischer
McDonnell actually has ability, unfortunately it is outweighed by his toxicty.

Yes you are correct, I am doing him an injustice in labelling him as stupid. The problem is that just makes his actions worse, he knows he is destroying the Labour Party and we know that he knows. Clearly he doesn't care.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:35 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Where I live is of no matter.....you nasty little creature

I am a UK voter and member of the party so don't tell me whether I can have an opinion or not. A bit Teresa May I think.....

Your posts are just rants with no sense....reminds me of a man in the pub just going on and on assuming their opinions and prejudices are right

Changing leader is the only answer you have.....i just suggest the reasons are more complex and the destruction of the LD and UKIP in England by the Tories and the descent of Scotland into Nationalist v Unionist is not something we have seen before

Keep ranting demonstrating our monomania but just allow some people to have more sober reflection

Changing leader is not the only solution I have. But you carry on playing the man not the ball, it is your only approach.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:36 pm

citizenJA wrote:Cut out the rudeness to each other, please.

If you read the bile on here today directed towards the leader of the party I am a member of with no comment from you on that

A decent man being abused on here

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:39 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its actually five weeks (minus a day)

I'd just finished counting off the Fridays in my diary. You beat me to it!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:42 pm

We have had a whole thread of playing the man and you being the ringleader

I am actually being quite polite to you....compared to what I think

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its actually five weeks (minus a day)
I'd just finished counting off the Fridays in my diary. You beat me to it!

Don't blame JC for wishing it was four, though. In that respect at least, I suspect he is like most people

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:44 pm

I see someone got slightly overexcited when tweeting the result...

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account
@bbclaurak

Follow
More
Andy Street wins Birmingham

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:48 pm

How does she get away with it? Seriously.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:51 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Cut out the rudeness to each other, please.
If you read the bile on here today directed towards the leader of the party I am a member of with no comment from you on that

A decent man being abused on here

I wrote what I did without ill-will towards anyone, I posted what I did comradely. Please excuse me if I've caused offence.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:55 pm

The only MBC to vote this year, Doncaster, has declared. UKIP lost both their seats on the council to Labour.

One of our best results of the day, to go along with our thumping win in the Mayoral election there earlier

Post by **refitman** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:56 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Amongst some very very stiff competition, this might be the single most hateful, ignorant thing this worthless little prick has ever written:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I saw someone refer to him as "left wing" the other day (because he was at the Mirror).

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:56 pm

cJA

Of course you didn't cause offence

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 5:58 pm

refitman wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Amongst some very very stiff competition, this might be the single most hateful, ignorant thing this worthless little prick has ever written:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And I saw someone refer to him as "left wing" the other day (because he was at the Mirror).

He hasn't even got it through the Senate yet, FFS

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:03 pm

The Three Senators (and Two Races) That Will Decide the Fate of Obamacare
Washington is watching as Democrats in two special elections rip the repeal effort and run surprisingly close races in red-hued districts. (The Daily Beast)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... =DDMorning

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:07 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is Sion Simon losing just all down to Corbyn...?

Does having Corbyn as leader absolve all responsibility from the individual candidates.....seems a bit of easy scapegoating to me

Same as 2015 when it was all Milibands fault.....

Perhaps a new leader is needed after election...we will see but if the British like leaders such as May and her attitude to insulting the EU then I am not sure who we will have

Very important to stress and acknowledge that this isn't all down to Corbyn. His going is a necessary condition of the lefts recovery, but not the cure.

I don't think any leader could have prevented defeat. Labours ambivalent position on Brexit (see also Scotland) is disastrous. The old New Labour coalition cannot be reconstructed.

A case could be made that Miliband was in a way worse. 2015 was winnable, whereas 2017 isn't.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:11 pm

Oh, and the main argument against Corbyn has never been that he will lose (though of course he will).

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:18 pm

I would see the only way Labour could have gained any votes concerning Brexit would have been to follow the Tories

I think Labour have the best approach to Brexit of all....not a great one but there are no good ones unfortunately

New Labour was a creature of the 90s.....politics have moved right since then

Perhaps Labour could run on the 97 manifesto again.....probably much too left wing now

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:18 pm

Apparently it is all ok.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/lab ... 6.html?amp

The votes don't reflect public opinion and the election is narrowing.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:20 pm

Tbf to him in at least this one instance, what exactly is he supposed to say?

I'm old enough to recall Roy Hattersley making a SOLEMN VOW that Labour would win, just days before the 1983 GE.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:35 pm

Last night was a Tory landslide – 8 June could be even worse for Labour
Conservative triumph in the local elections came from a turnout of just 30%.
When people less politically engaged vote the advantage might be even greater

- Lewis Baston

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-triumph" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(cJA emphasis)

Galling - less than 30%?
The author goes on to write while the GE turnout is likely to be higher, it won't necessarily benefit Labour.
The article isn't without merit but I don't know if I agree.
I don't consider the 2015 GE turnout of 66.1% high, though I concede it's a long-term trend of voter non-participation.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:37 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The Three Senators (and Two Races) That Will Decide the Fate of Obamacare
Washington is watching as Democrats in two special elections rip the repeal effort and run surprisingly close races in red-hued districts. (The Daily Beast)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... =DDMorning

Well, well...would you look at that. Coincidental?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:38 pm

Poor article

Opinion presented as fact

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:41 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:I would see the only way Labour could have gained any votes concerning Brexit would have been to follow the Tories

I think Labour have the best approach to Brexit of all....not a great one but there are no good ones unfortunately

New Labour was a creature of the 90s.....politics have moved right since then

Perhaps Labour could run on the 97 manifesto again.....probably much too left wing now

No argument from me. I think that the New Labour coalition cannot be reconstructed by Labour and that, in its current form, it will never win again. The dying tree preventing anything new from growing.

Being optimistic, perhaps Corbyn has just accelerated a process that needed to happen anyway.

Things could get very sticky indeed for the Tories in about two years, but I can't see them not turning it around given that they'll have three more years in which to do so. We're looking at 2027 now.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 05 May, 2017 6:49 pm

Someone said that the British electorate are like a frog in water and being slowly heated up

The Tories are extreme right and the voters are following them at the moment

Labour cannot go there