Saturday 22nd July & Sunday 23rd July 2017

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:09 pm

Daniel Hannan seems to think we can stay in the single market, and he thinks that's what will happen

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tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:15 pm

Then again he seems to have a limited relationship with reality
(not that he's alone)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:21 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Then again he seems to have a limited relationship with reality
(not that he's alone)

Very true, I'm just amazed at how some brexiteers are now wriggling.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:44 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.

That is easily answered.

Emphatically not, no.

So when we leave the EU we automatically remain in the Single Market then (although I disagree with terminology)?

It may be that when we leave that we have already an agreement on our access rights after that but that is not the point being made and is not an assumption we can make at the moment

I think the EU have made it quite clear that it we leave with no agreement in place then we are out of the SM haven't they?

Of course not, who would claim such a thing.

You know what sophistry is?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:03 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Labour government would leave the single market because it is “dependent on membership of the EU” but seek a trade deal that mirrored the free trade benefits, Jeremy Corbyn has said.

I'm pretty sure a trade deal isn't the same as being a member of a single market.

I'm also pretty sure if you could enjoy all the benefits of a single market without being in one, no country would bother getting together with another country to create a single market in the first place.

Also, you clearly don't have to be a full member of the EU to be in the single market, so why does Corbyn phrase his comment in this way? It's being interpreted by others as a firm statement that a Labour government would not seek to remain within the single market, as did I. If this wasn't Corbyn's intent, then he needs to clarify.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:06 pm

Predictably we have the usual suspects defending Corbyn s claim that you can only be in the single market within the EU.

Anybody prepared to defend his anti immigration claims?

Straight forward and honest.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:13 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... its-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EU demands right to child benefits even after Brexit
Brussels talks falter as UK says £30m benefit must end in March 2019

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:15 pm

You know what sophistry is?

Is that directed at me you sanctimonious self-important twat?

I have yet to see anything in the EU documentation on this alluding to 'membership' of the Single Market - I see 'access' and 'participation' mentioned

We will leave the EU, and hence will no longer have access to the Single Market apart from under WTO guidelines unless

we join an organisation whose membership includes defined access to the SM (e.g. EEA) or
we define a bespoke agreement which may or may not make us liable to support the four freedoms depending upon the scope

Can I ask those who keep talking of 'membership' and being 'in' explain to me if the EEA/Switzerland have all the same rights regarding the SM as EU members; for example, do they have a vote in the decisions of the rules pertaining to it?

My contention is that we see all these comments about 'membership' of the EU and the semantics around it being used as a reason to criticise various politicians when the fact is it is not as simple as some people are making it out.

Labour are trying not to commit to this at the moment - I think they are playing a very difficult game very well, in between those that essentially want to turn back the referendum result and those who see getting out of the EU as being unarguable. It will all have to play out at sometime but that is where the skill is - deciding which way to jump and when....

This approach, prior to the election, was apparently going to cost Labour millions of votes and lots of seats - those who predicted this were wrong as it happens - I am not going to start taking the advice of a Hugo and Chukka Umunna now thank you very much

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:22 pm

There is a lot of the use of the phrase 'in the Single Market' or 'Member of the Single Market' as though it has any meaning and it is a club you join or don't join

The reason why Corbyn could be using the phraseology he does is that it technically he can argue that he is correct?

It is semantics but when you are involved in a high stakes situation like this, you want to keep all options open and you want to have a way to explain a decision and defend accusation against u-turning it is important and bloody difficult. He could just come out and say there is no way we will subscribe to the four freedoms (as the Tories have done) or will be fully participating in the SM (like the lD) - if you look at the way the last election went the most popular choices seem to be the Tory path or the one trod by Labour - the LD one didn't fare so well, so which one would you prefer?

Look at how what he said on student loans has been, to be honest, lied about in the press and by opposition politicians so this is pretty difficult

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm

Straightforward

(Punt for sanctimonious pedant prize)

Remember to laugh

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm

Yeah, all those immigrants driving down wages.

About time we left the single market, even though it doesn't exist.

For he avoidance of doubt, dishonesty is electorally successful in politics. But we shouldn't cheer it on. That just becomes my party right or wrong, politics as sport, like supporting Man Utd.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:31 pm

This link again describes the scope and limits of the EU vs EEA vs EFTA vs Switzerland

One paragraph is interesting as it admits that not all aspects of the SM and related agreements apply to EEA countries

D.The limits of the EEA
The EEA Agreement does not establish binding provisions in all sectors of the internal market or in other policies under the EU Treaties. In particular, its binding provisions do not concern:
the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy (although the agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fishery products);
the customs union;
the common trade policy;
the common foreign and security policy;
the field of justice and home affairs (although all the EFTA countries are part of the Schengen area); or
the economic and monetary union (EMU).

So if we wanted to continue to be part of any of these it would take a separate agreement to that included in the EEA

I am not arguing that the outcome that people desire is wrong - I personally think we still have to maintain the current levels of participation in the SM and CU for economic prosperity in the medium term at the very least.

What I do see though is people forgetting the emotional and political side of this and an over-simplification of this concept of the SM and what it means to non-EU members.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:36 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Yeah, all those immigrants driving down wages.

About time we left the single market, even though it doesn't exist.

For he avoidance of doubt, dishonesty is electrically successful in politics. But we shouldn't cheer it on. That just becomes my party right or wrong, politics as sport, like supporting Man Utd.

There is a perception of immigrants driving down wages which is over-estimated and has to be dealt with. The biggest issue with immigration though is the impact on local services, especially in an age of austerity as being promoted by the Tories(and not a few on the right of the Labour Party too).

In order to take the heat out of the immigration debate then theses perceptions need to be dealt with

The other issue with immigration is that there are sizeable immigrant populations int he UK who are absolutely pissed off and don't feel there is much fair about the immigration question and that is those who are not inside the EU......coming from a town with a high Indian and Afro-Carribean community there is not much belief that the EU immigration policies are 'fair'

I am not saying they are right but these perceptions are out there

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:42 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Yeah, all those immigrants driving down wages.

About time we left the single market, even though it doesn't exist.

For he avoidance of doubt, dishonesty is electrically successful in politics. But we shouldn't cheer it on. That just becomes my party right or wrong, politics as sport, like supporting Man Utd.

There is a perception of immigrants driving down wages which is over-estimated and has to be dealt with. The biggest issue with immigration though is the impact on local services, especially in an age of austerity as being promoted by the Tories(and not a few on the right of the Labour Party too).

In order to take the heat out of the immigration debate then theses perceptions need to be dealt with

The other issue with immigration is that there are sizeable immigrant populations int he UK who are absolutely pissed off and don't feel there is much fair about the immigration question and that is those who are not inside the EU......coming from a town with a high Indian and Afro-Carribean community there is not much belief that the EU immigration policies are 'fair'

I am not saying they are right but these perceptions are out there

Right, so you accept that Corbyn's claim that we've got floods of E Europeans actually driving down conditions is untrue.

(It wasn't a claim about perceptions. Did you not watch it on Swiss TV?)

But hey, why worry about ending something that doesn't exist, we can just subsidise industries we like that lose out.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:47 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Yeah, all those immigrants driving down wages.

About time we left the single market, even though it doesn't exist.

For he avoidance of doubt, dishonesty is electrically successful in politics. But we shouldn't cheer it on. That just becomes my party right or wrong, politics as sport, like supporting Man Utd.

There is a perception of immigrants driving down wages which is over-estimated and has to be dealt with. The biggest issue with immigration though is the impact on local services, especially in an age of austerity as being promoted by the Tories(and not a few on the right of the Labour Party too).

In order to take the heat out of the immigration debate then theses perceptions need to be dealt with

The other issue with immigration is that there are sizeable immigrant populations int he UK who are absolutely pissed off and don't feel there is much fair about the immigration question and that is those who are not inside the EU......coming from a town with a high Indian and Afro-Carribean community there is not much belief that the EU immigration policies are 'fair'

I am not saying they are right but these perceptions are out there
Right, so you accept that Corbyn's claim that we've got floods of E Europeans actually driving down conditions is untrue.

(It wasn't a claim about perceptions. Did you not watch it on Swiss TV?)

But hey, why worry about ending something that doesn't exist, we can just subsidise industries we like that lose out.

I am quite happy to challenge him when he is wrong.....there is a perception though that they do though and that needs to be challenged with facts....but I know plenty of people who believe it and it has come from many sources not just Corbyn. Also, the impact on local services in some parts of the country is not a myth but this is driven by austerity and you are a Blairite fan of that aren't you?

It is only you that is apparently never wrong

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:47 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ance-spain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bear chases 200 sheep over cliff edge to their deaths

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:50 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:This link again describes the scope and limits of the EU vs EEA vs EFTA vs Switzerland

One paragraph is interesting as it admits that not all aspects of the SM and related agreements apply to EEA countries

D.The limits of the EEA
The EEA Agreement does not establish binding provisions in all sectors of the internal market or in other policies under the EU Treaties. In particular, its binding provisions do not concern:
the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy (although the agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fishery products);
the customs union;
the common trade policy;
the common foreign and security policy;
the field of justice and home affairs (although all the EFTA countries are part of the Schengen area); or
the economic and monetary union (EMU).
So if we wanted to continue to be part of any of these it would take a separate agreement to that included in the EEA

I am not arguing that the outcome that people desire is wrong - I personally think we still have to maintain the current levels of participation in the SM and CU for economic prosperity in the medium term at the very least.

What I do see though is people forgetting the emotional and political side of this and an over-simplification of this concept of the SM and what it means to non-EU members.

So you think I'm wrong or being simplistic in suggesting that to enjoy the full benefits of the single market we would have to, at the very least, accept the four freedoms? Corbyn was talking today about freedom of movement being responsible for lowering wages. This was a central argument of those promoting leave. To convince people to put the economy before controlling our borders, these Eurosceptic arguments need to be debunked not reinforced. I don't doubt you want a similar outcome to me, what I don't understand is why you are so convinced Corbyn does.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:56 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ance-spain

Bear chases 200 sheep over cliff edge to their deaths

Brings to mind Farmer Oak in Far From the Madding Crowd.

Weird how much things change in some ways but in others barely change at all. I wonder if "chased over cliff by bear" is covered by the insurance.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:58 pm

An evil right-winger writes

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Post by **refitman** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 2:59 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:yes - can see timing would be critical here
EmRG0Y5N8lg

So close...

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:01 pm

Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:This link again describes the scope and limits of the EU vs EEA vs EFTA vs Switzerland

One paragraph is interesting as it admits that not all aspects of the SM and related agreements apply to EEA countries

D.The limits of the EEA
The EEA Agreement does not establish binding provisions in all sectors of the internal market or in other policies under the EU Treaties. In particular, its binding provisions do not concern:
the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy (although the agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fishery products);
the customs union;
the common trade policy;
the common foreign and security policy;
the field of justice and home affairs (although all the EFTA countries are part of the Schengen area); or
the economic and monetary union (EMU).
So if we wanted to continue to be part of any of these it would take a separate agreement to that included in the EEA

I am not arguing that the outcome that people desire is wrong - I personally think we still have to maintain the current levels of participation in the SM and CU for economic prosperity in the medium term at the very least.

What I do see though is people forgetting the emotional and political side of this and an over-simplification of this concept of the SM and what it means to non-EU members.
So you think I'm wrong or being simplistic in suggesting that to enjoy the full benefits of the single market we would have to, at the very least, accept the four freedoms? Corbyn was talking today about freedom of movement being responsible for lowering wages. This was a central argument of those promoting leave. To convince people to put the economy before controlling our borders, these Eurosceptic arguments need to be debunked not reinforced. I don't doubt you want a similar outcome to me, what I don't understand is why you are so convinced Corbyn does.

For a start on this he is wrong to focus on the immigration part and he should focus on the behaviour of employers who exploit FoM for their own ends - and this does happen.

I have no evidence that he doesn't want the same outcomes for me - and just for clarity I do not see being in the EU and SM an outcome - I see it as the means to an end not the end itself

Post by **refitman** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:04 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's really going to help, "evil right winger".

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:06 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dunno about evil, but judging by much of his pre-election output "incredibly dim" might be nearer to the mark perhaps. It was he who produced that incredible (but not in a good way) bit of centrist fan fiction featuring Jess Phillips (JESS PHILLIPS!!) as the leader of a new "moderate" party that sweeps all before it

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:06 pm

refitman wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's really going to help, "evil right winger".

I do love the things you're offended by.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:06 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeah another opinion...some I agree with and some I don't......

As to the Labour manifesto....well according to you and most on your wing of politics it was taking us back to an era of the extreme left wing - I wish you would all make your minds up!

Post by **refitman** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:09 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
refitman wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's really going to help, "evil right winger".

I do love the things you're offended by.

Not offended, just don't think those words contribute to the discussion in any form. You could have said "here's a view on..." and you wouldn't have been pushing anyone's buttons (unless that's what you're going for? ).

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:10 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dunno about evil, but judging by much of his pre-election output "incredibly dim" might be nearer to the mark perhaps. It was he who produced that incredible (but not in a good way) bit of centrist fan fiction featuring Jess Phillips (JESS PHILLIPS!!) as the leader of a new "moderate" party that sweeps all before it

As accurate as Hugo is the old prediction stakes then.....

It is amazing that all these people who were soooooo wrong about Labour's performance in the election still seem to continue to make predictions without any indication of contrition or embarrassment......

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:12 pm

[quote="refitman"
Not offended, just don't think those words contribute to the discussion in any form. You could have said "here's a view on..." and you wouldn't have been pushing anyone's buttons (unless that's what you're going for? ).[/quote]

Ok

I do love the words you think don't contribute to the discussion.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:14 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:An evil right-winger writes

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dunno about evil, but judging by much of his pre-election output "incredibly dim" might be nearer to the mark perhaps. It was he who produced that incredible (but not in a good way) bit of centrist fan fiction featuring Jess Phillips (JESS PHILLIPS!!) as the leader of a new "moderate" party that sweeps all before it

As accurate as Hugo is the old prediction stakes then.....

It is amazing that all these people who were soooooo wrong about Labour's performance in the election still seem to continue to make predictions without any indication of contrition or embarrassment......

You might be right. Leaving the single market might be great. Maybe.

I doubt it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:18 pm

You might be right. Leaving the single market might be great. Maybe.

I doubt it.

What has that to do with my post?

Who has said, apart from extreme Brexiters, that not participating in the single market would be great?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:19 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:[quote="refitman"
Not offended, just don't think those words contribute to the discussion in any form. You could have said "here's a view on..." and you wouldn't have been pushing anyone's buttons (unless that's what you're going for? ).

Ok

I do love the words you think don't contribute to the discussion.[/quote]

Dan always contributes to any discussion....you, on the otherhand....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 3:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
You might be right. Leaving the single market might be great. Maybe.

I doubt it.
What has that to do with my post?

Who has said, apart from extreme Brexiters, that not participating in the single market would be great?

I think we can all take as read by now your claim that single market mbership doesn't exist.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:15 pm

No I don't say that really - what i say that it is not the only word that can be used to describe the relationship with the SM and 'access to' and 'participation in' are equally valid and often used. You argue that only the word 'membership' is valid and you criticise others for using other words.

There are at least 3 different relationships with the SM that are in existence now, and if I read rightly the UK will have a fourth - I don't believe any of the current non-EU SM 'members' are in the CU as well....possibly because if you opt-in to all the component parts of the internal market then it makes no sense being outside the EU to be honest.

This contradiction may lead to the end of Brexit at the end

It is a shame that all we talk about with regards to the EU is the SM - something I am no great lover of in how it is applied - and forgets some of the reasons why I support the EU

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
You know what sophistry is?

Is that directed at me you sanctimonious self-important twat?

HSOM - think

: saint emoticon.png (942 Bytes) Viewed 22187 times

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:22 pm

One thing driving down wages is the fact that everyone wants everything to be free or cheap (regardless of actual affordability).
Vicious circle.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:30 pm

OK. Let's get to basics.
1. What is the EU?
2. What's good about its intentions?
3. What's bad about how it's working out?
4. What's good about how it's working out?
5. What might realistically be improved?
6. What other/better options are there in principle (for the world)?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:32 pm

UK MPs moaning that EU is making trade talks 'political'.
Cynical and pathetic.

(a new word pair for TM).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 4:49 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... e-security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Israel refuses to remove metal detectors from mosque despite rising violence
Israelis and Palestinians braced for further confrontations in Jerusalem as death toll rises in wake of new security crackdown

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 5:23 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:One thing driving down wages is the fact that everyone wants everything to be free or cheap (regardless of actual affordability).
Vicious circle.

Yes. And such a lot of waste often arises from it, too.

Edited to add -

I often think about how much more I'd be prepared to pay for things if price rises came with a guarantee that the extra charge went to the producers (rather than big business owners, CEOs and the like).

Edited to make sense (ish)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 5:24 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 5:38 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... igh-season" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 6:52 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-liam-fox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit deal should not 'drag on' until after next election, says Liam Fox
But minister says cabinet braced for longer transitional period to ensure ‘maximum certainty and minimal disruption’

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 6:54 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... en-funeral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK approved £283m of arms sales to Saudis after airstrike on Yemen funeral

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:01 pm

UK approved £283m of arms sales to Saudis after airstrike on Yemen funeral

Campaigners say Britain should have halted weapons exports after attack that caused international outrage
A funeral hall where 140 people died after an airstrike by Saudi-led forces in October 2016 in Sana’a.

Following the attack, the UK trade secretary, Liam Fox, delayed signing a set of export licences and his officials prepared for sales to Saudi Arabia to be suspended. However, documents obtained by the Guardian revealed that the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, advised him that the sales should continue, as he judged there was no clear risk that British weapons would be used for serious breaches of international humanitarian law. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... en-funeral

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:04 pm

@HindleA

Whoops!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:05 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:One thing driving down wages is the fact that everyone wants everything to be free or cheap (regardless of actual affordability)

I don't like cheap things
Poor materials badly manufactured by poverty-stricken people in miserable conditions
Sometimes I don't have a choice but to purchase what's available
What's the real cost of produce?

You're absolutely right about an obsession with paying the smallest amount possible
I don't like employers and other influentials paying people too little for their work
Nothing makes me angrier

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:12 pm

Liam Fox demands meeting with BBC over 'negative' Brexit stories

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:19 pm

Depends,often the cheapest actually isn't,we bought good without needless ostentation(but the aesthete factor not totally dismissed).Longetivity made/makes it cheaper in the long run.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:21 pm

Of course my general aversion in avoiding spending unless necessary helps my personal economy,not that great for the economy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:25 pm

@PF

I give the headline,you give more details.