FlyTheNest

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:39 pm**

RogerOThornhill wrote:Sigh.

Ian Katz‏Verified account @iankatz1000 8m8 minutes ago
More
Jeremy Corbyn on Sunday: UK is leaving the single market. @HackneyAbbott on #newsnight tonight: "We're not taking any options off the table"

Has there ever been a major issue where both major parties seem utterly clueless and uncoordinated?

I don't find this difficult.

Here's the transcript from Marr

AM: You’ve got a reputation as a straight talker and clear answers. There’s one issue on which you won’t give a clear answer. When you’re asked would you like to see us leave the single market, you can’t tell us.
JC: The single market is dependent on membership of the EU. What we’ve said all along is that we want a tariff free trade access to the European market and a partnership with Europe in the future.
AM: But to be absolutely crystal clear, we leave the single European market because we leave the EU?
JC: The two things are inextricably linked.
AM: So we have to leave the single market?
JC: Yes.

What Corbyn is saying is that if it's true that you have to be in the EU to be in the Single Market then we are leaving both.

His answer is accurate, but unhelpful. Because the line of questioning is unhelpful. Starmer has been quite clear. He's focusing less on what it's called and more on what it is. Labour wants the thing that is most like the Single Market that is compatible with the Referendum result to leave the EU.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:40 pm**

Sophie Sandor: You want better state schools? Then let them make a profit.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... rofit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:42 pm**

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... misleading" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Official estimates of international students in UK 'potentially misleading'
Research by government’s statistics watchdog casts doubt on supposed high level of students overstaying their visas

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:43 pm**

Wow, what a surprise!

(CNN)The House voted Thursday to approve a spending bill with $1.6 billion to put toward a border wall along the US-Mexico border, part of a high-profile campaign pledge from President Donald Trump.

Despite Trump's pledge to make Mexico pay for the wall, the bill earmarks taxpayer money to construct a carrier along the southwest border. To avoid having those Republicans who oppose the measure vote on it directly House Republican leaders tucked it into a procedural measure that set the debate plan for the so-called "minibus" funding bill for several federal agencies.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:44 pm**

As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:45 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Sigh.

Ian Katz‏Verified account @iankatz1000 8m8 minutes ago
More
Jeremy Corbyn on Sunday: UK is leaving the single market. @HackneyAbbott on #newsnight tonight: "We're not taking any options off the table"

Has there ever been a major issue where both major parties seem utterly clueless and uncoordinated?
I don't find this difficult.

Here's the transcript from Marr
AM: You’ve got a reputation as a straight talker and clear answers. There’s one issue on which you won’t give a clear answer. When you’re asked would you like to see us leave the single market, you can’t tell us.
JC: The single market is dependent on membership of the EU. What we’ve said all along is that we want a tariff free trade access to the European market and a partnership with Europe in the future.
AM: But to be absolutely crystal clear, we leave the single European market because we leave the EU?
JC: The two things are inextricably linked.
AM: So we have to leave the single market?
JC: Yes.
What Corbyn is saying is that if it's true that you have to be in the EU to be in the Single Market then we are leaving both.

His answer is accurate, but unhelpful. Because the line of questioning is unhelpful. Starmer has been quite clear. He's focusing less on what it's called and more on what it is. Labour wants the thing that is most like the Single Market that is compatible with the Referendum result to leave the EU.

No if. He's saying you have to leave when you leave the EU.

It's perfectly feasible the UK get in the EEA the day it leaves the EU.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:50 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.

It's irrelevant because if you leave the EU, you have no power to shape what European politics looks like.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:52 pm**

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.
It's irrelevant because if you leave the EU, you have no power to shape what European politics looks like.

Well it's not irrelevant to me!

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:54 pm**

And it makes me cross that the millions of people who are neither hard remainers nor hard leavers continue to be treated like we're stupid. We are not!

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:54 pm**

What can the UK do about the shape of Europe?

Can't he do a speech on it, or something? Why does he need somebody to ask him about it?

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:55 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.

I was quite happy with EU as it is, including our opt-outs. We will never have anything as good trade/travel wise outside the EU.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:55 pm**

And I know from experience, albeit in very different contexts, that when you are at an apparent impasse looking elsewhere and discussing other viewpoints can help find a way past it.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:56 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.
I was quite happy with EU as it is, including our opt-outs. We will never have anything as good trade/travel wise outside the EU.

I was pretty happy with it too.

But it wasn't working for lots of folk AAW. That's the trouble.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:58 pm**

And here's an odd thing.

On everything else, we want the policies that are best for all.

But on Brexit people seem to want what's best for them, not the majority.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm**

Senators Will Only Vote For Bill If Assured It Won't Become Law

Right now, the situation on Capitol Hill is that the “skinny repeal” will not pass if it appears there is any chance for it to become law. If assured that it will be junked in a conference committee after passage, the bill may receive support from a majority of senators.

If you are confused, you should be. But this is American politics in 2017.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I've said before, what is missing is a positive discussion about what Europe should be.

How much more illuminating would it be to hear Corbyn answer

"In your ideal world what would the landscape of European politics look like?"

But we never get that.
I was quite happy with EU as it is, including our opt-outs. We will never have anything as good trade/travel wise outside the EU.
I was pretty happy with it too.

But it wasn't working for lots of folk AAW. That's the trouble.

I keep hearing that but no one will say why or how it wasn't working.
Greece? That's a whole different kettle of fish, including the accounts produced to allow them entry.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:02 pm**

Anti Academies‏
@antiacademies

DfE toughens academy pay rules in academies handbook | Schools Week http://schoolsweek.co.uk/?p=59974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; via

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:07 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:
I keep hearing that but no one will say why or how it wasn't working.
Greece? That's a whole different kettle of fish, including the accounts produced to allow them entry.

Greece needs debt write off, but it's not our money at stake, so our (for now) EU partners might not like being told to write off theirs.

There are more general improvements people suggest for the Eurozone, but I don't really understand it.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:08 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
I was quite happy with EU as it is, including our opt-outs. We will never have anything as good trade/travel wise outside the EU.
I was pretty happy with it too.

But it wasn't working for lots of folk AAW. That's the trouble.
I keep hearing that but no one will say why or how it wasn't working.
Greece? That's a whole different kettle of fish, including the accounts produced to allow them entry.

AAW the EU is fundamentally a capitalist construct.

Who do you think the four freedoms work for?

Freedom of movement is a great thing if you're a skilled professional or a student, or can afford overseas holidays, but it's only been trouble for the less well off.

I still think we're better in. But it's not so clear cut.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:09 pm**

Christopher Hayes‏Verified account
@chrislhayes
If these people were black, lots of white people would be talking about how black people can't govern for the rest of eternity.

Indeed. The Republican senate is only going to pass a bill if it won't become law, but they don't trust their own President and Speaker not to make it law.

Unbelievable farce.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:12 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:Sophie Sandor: You want better state schools? Then let them make a profit.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... rofit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I managed the first paragraph down to " if politicians embraced the free market, an outstanding education by today’s standards would be delivered to the masses" and gave up.

Sophie Sandor is Programmes Manager at the IEA

Of course she is...

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:16 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Who do you think the four freedoms work for?

Freedom of movement is a great thing if you're a skilled professional or a student, or can afford overseas holidays, but it's only been trouble for the less well off.

I still think we're better in. But it's not so clear cut.

"Only trouble?"

The less well off don't benefit from EU nurses then? Or from buying affordable local farm produce?

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:16 pm**

Benefits of European Union

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/b ... union.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good night all

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:18 pm**

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Sophie Sandor is Programmes Manager at the IEA

Of course she is...

As someone in the comments pointed out, Ms Sandor was at school until 5 years ago, studied Scots law and then worked for Adam Smith Institute, Better Together, and now the IEA.

Such a wealth of experience behind her to back up her ideas...

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:25 pm**

RogerOThornhill wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Sophie Sandor is Programmes Manager at the IEA

Of course she is...

As someone in the comments pointed out, Ms Sandor was at school until 5 years ago, studied Scots law and then worked for Adam Smith Institute, Better Together, and now the IEA.

Such a wealth of experience behind her to back up her ideas...

"Third sector non-jobs!"

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:28 pm**

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Who do you think the four freedoms work for?

Freedom of movement is a great thing if you're a skilled professional or a student, or can afford overseas holidays, but it's only been trouble for the less well off.

I still think we're better in. But it's not so clear cut.
"Only trouble?"

The less well off don't benefit from EU nurses then? Or from buying affordable local farm produce?

Those nurses aren't having a huge impact in Barnsley Tubby

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:34 pm**

[quote="AngryAsWell"]Benefits of European Union

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/b ... union.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good night all[/quote)
%
Thank you AAW

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:40 pm**

If those other places weren't recruiting EU nurses, they'd be recruting more nurses who work in Barnsley.

Anyway, if we're just talking about Barnsley, how many EU citizens are there anyway? How are they "nothing but trouble"?

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:40 pm**

For clarity again I'm still pro-EU

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:45 pm**

Barnsley in 2011 was 95.1% white British. 3% more are variously non-white.

That's not very many EU citizens.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:45 pm**

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -recruiter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour demands inquiry into privatisation of NHS-owned recruiter

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:49 pm**

Tubby Isaacs wrote:If those other places weren't recruiting EU nurses, they'd be recruting more nurses who work in Barnsley.

Anyway, if we're just talking about Barnsley, how many EU citizens are there anyway? How are they "nothing but trouble"?

Remember this all started because I wanted Corbyn to be asked about a more positive vision of Europe.

I think the freedom of movement should be a right, not a resource to support the free flow of capital.

Can't we find a way to better balance the economies around the continent so that people don't have to travel for work unless they want to? And where there is significant migration, can't the EU leverage resource to ensure there is sufficient infrastructure for the areas of growing population?

This is what socialists think about.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:52 pm**

https://www.theguardian.com/social-care ... t-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Employers can't foot £400m care worker back pay bill. Government must act - fast
Time is running out to tackle the crisis over pay for sleep-in shifts, which will cause problems for providers, their staff and the people who rely on care
Derek Lewis is chairman of the Royal Mencap Society

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:53 pm**

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Barnsley in 2011 was 95.1% white British. 3% more are variously non-white.

That's not very many EU citizens.

Well not on the census no Tubby.

I don't really want this argument.

What I try to do is explain what I hear and see around me on the bus, down the pub that explains why 52% of folk voted Leave. I think others here do the same thing. We can bluster and rant all we want about the wonders of the EU, but until we listen to those other voices, we will IMHO end up Brexiting.

Listen and reflect and we have a chance to turn back.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:54 pm**

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -recruiter

Labour demands inquiry into privatisation of NHS-owned recruiter

One of those things like outsourcing hospital cleaning, porters, and catering that makes no sense whatsoever unless you're a free market loon.

Interesting that my other half used to have a contract with them doing bank shifts but that seems to have changed and her bank shifts are now with the trust that employs her. Wonder whether they changed due to the threat of privatization?

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:57 pm**

That's fair comment, Paul.

Where I live 56% voted Leave.

Posted: **Thu 27 Jul, 2017 11:59 pm**

RogerOThornhill wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -recruiter

Labour demands inquiry into privatisation of NHS-owned recruiter
One of those things like outsourcing hospital cleaning, porters, and catering that makes no sense whatsoever unless you're a free market loon.

Interesting that my other half used to have a contract with them doing bank shifts but that seems to have changed and her bank shifts are now with the trust that employs her. Wonder whether they changed due to the threat of privatization?

My other half does literally all her shifts through the Welsh NHS bank. Seems to work OK.

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:03 am**

Tubby Isaacs wrote: My other half does literally all her shifts through the Welsh NHS bank. Seems to work OK.

The logic of why it has to be privatized escapes me.

On the one hand "we pay too much for agency staff" - on the other "lets privatize the in-house one that saves us money so we'll end up spending more"!

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:31 am**

https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk ... ?i=ed18895" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whittlestone v BJP Home Support Limited UKEAT/0128/13/BA

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:32 am**

Steve M

The most relevant and concise case in this matter is Whittlestone v BJP Home Support Limited UKEAT/0128/13/BA https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk ... ?i=ed18895" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ,which puts paid to any argument on night-workers sleeping pay, although it hasn't stopped employers trying to find a way around it. In that case no changes to the law occurred, all that happened was the Hon. Mr Justice Langstaff clarified the existing law, which had been regularly misinterpreted by employers and their legal advisers, by applying a clause 15.1.a of the National Minimum Wage Act out of context. In other words applying it when it should not apply at all. What has been less widely reported, if indeed reported at all, was that in the very same case Mr. Justice Langstaff also clarified the existing law 15.2 and 15.3b on Care worker's travelling time pay between assignments, another area where workers right to pay has been, and still continues to be widely abused. I know all this because I represented Miss Whittlestone. If this article is correct, then is hard to see how the Government could advise local authorities or employers to not pay what is due, to ignore the law without changing the law.

And those with personal budgets,were they advised as such previously as to pay and has the budget allowed for this,and will they?

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:07 am**

Hello TC2 if you are still about,if you aren't hello anyway.

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:23 am**

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... in-secrecy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS accused of shrouding £500m of planned cuts in secrecy
BMA says patients deserve to know the impact of savings in healthcare across England

Posted: **Fri 28 Jul, 2017 6:42 am**

Tubby Isaacs wrote:That's fair comment, Paul.

Where I live 56% voted Leave.

Thanks Tubby very similar here, regretfully

FlyTheNest

Thursday 27th July 2017

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