FlyTheNest

TechnicalEphemera wrote:So the big question on debates is when will Cameron fold?

Whatever the Westminster Tory boot licker press claim being empty chaired would be the kiss of death to his campaign. The guy who doesn't turn up for the interview will not get the job. In a close election the sigma would cost him 5-6 points minimum.

However the longer he stays out the less influence he will have on format. So I suspect in three weeks time he will declare himself to have been in favour all along and sign on.

I fully expect the U-Turn Kid to strike again.

Goodnight, everyone.

Yahyah asks

"Hugo, I wonder if you would mind sharing a little about yourself and why you support Labour."


Ok.

I am clearly to the right of most on this board, but I have voted Labour all my life, with one exception, the general election of 2005. I was deeply opposed to the Iraq War and voted Lib Dem in that year. I do not have much sympathy in other respects for the sanctimonious Lib Dems. I think they are embodied by Chris Huhne.

In 87 and 92 I campaigned for Labour (ie I doorstepped). I haven't done that since.

Why do I support Labour? A non-exhaustive list includes

(i) Treatment of the poorest
The cuts to the (scarcely adequate) provision for the poorest is a disgrace. Foodbanks of the kind we now have, in a rich society, scar us.

(ii) Inequality
The UK is simply too unequal. Although claims of ever widening inequality are false, inequality increased dramatically in the 80s and has plateaued since, our society is not just. In terms of equality between the sexes, races, different sexual preferences etc, Labour's instincts are all correct.

(iii) Education
I went to a Comprehensive school and my children go to one. Labour is the only party truly committed to this.

(iv) The Economy
I could say a lot here, but will just say that the Tory fiscal policy proposals are so wholly implausible that the only thing to be said in their favour is that they are unbelievable.

(v) Foreign Policy
Despite Iraq, I remain of the view that it is Labour that is most likely to conduct foreign policy in accordance with international law.

(vi) Rule of Law
Almost unnoticed, this government has de facto repealed our rights by taking away legal aid (court fees also just went up sevenfold). Claims for race discrimination, sex discrimination, unfair dismissal etc have been virtually eliminated by the cunning move of making it too expensive to pursue.

(vii) Housing
We need to free up land for building. This needs to be done in the South East on green belt. Labour is much more likely to get this done.

(viii) EU
I am strongly pro-EU, and think the principle of free movement of persons is precious. The Tories endanger our membership.

I could go on. But I do hold views that some here will not endorse.

(i) Fixing markets
I loathe ‘pre-distribution’ and current proposals to fix markets. So, energy price caps and further controls on rents are, in my view, counterproductive. Easily the best way to help the poorest is to give them money.

(ii) Health
I have no concerns in principle about delivering healthcare through private providers. Free at the point of use is what matters.

(iii) Rail
Rail re-nationalisation (which is a bit misleading as rail was largely re-nationalised in 2002) would be pointless. The current system works reasonably well, save that we should stop subsidising rail. This is a market distortion, encouraging people to commute, subsidising bankers in Surrey.

(iv) University Education
We shouldn’t be cutting the tuition fee level, indeed we should follow the Browne proposals and remove the cap altogether. Capping the fee is regressive, does nothing for access and has terrible opportunity costs. Restoring the EMA would cost 1/5th, would not be regressive, and improve access.

(v) Miliband
I am sorry to say that I think Miliband is useless. Much of what is wrong with the direction of travel I attribute to him. With a different leader, Labour would be headed for a majority.

Night PF

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF

Thanks, Hugo. I disagree with you on the last four elements of your post (as I'm sure you'd expect) but I really appreciate your post.

DEMOCRACY campaigners won the right yesterday to take the Mayor of London to court over his decision to fence off and prevent peaceful protests in Parliament Square.
The High Court gave the green light for a judicial review of Boris Johnson’s decision to erect large metal fences in Parliament Square Gardens halfway through a 10-day protest in October 2014.

http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-1a96-M ... PtcoLOsV6s

Armando Iannucci ‏@Aiannucci Mar 6
Cameron has also abolished the PM's monthly press conference

Blimey.

Thank for that Hugo
I disagree with you on the last 4 points as well, but appreciate your openness.

AngryAsWell wrote:Thank for that Hugo
I disagree with you on the last 4 points as well, but appreciate your openness.

Me too (on both counts). Thanks Hugo

Ban on wild animals in circus blocked by Tory backbenchers
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 92779.html#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RobertSnozers wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:PorFavor

Because it cannot do Miliband any good to be placed on an equal platform, with equal time, as Clegg, Farage, Sturgeon, Bennett and the Welsh One.

All things being equal, no. But things are not equal. There are risks with either option. Having pushed for the debates all this time, would it not do more harm than good not to take part? And taking part in the two 6-7 headers is the price for 90 minutes on prime time TV by himself to help get his message across a week before the election.

Not to mention letting Cameron off the hook. I believe Cameron has taken a small hit over this, which will get bigger if the debates happen without him.

Clearly not equal at all. "the Welsh One"? How long would it have taken to look up the name of "the Welsh One"? (It's Leanne Wood, btw and I think Plaid are getting my vote this time, breaking the Labour voting habit of my adult life.) Under Barnett Wales is unequal, Nicola Strugeon agrees we should have the same as the Scots, we have been treated badly since the 80s and now we don't even get the respect of anyone knowing the name of Plaid Cymru's leader and everyone letting that pass. If you're in Wales you know who Leanne Wood is and her values. I am simply fed up of the rest of the UK thinking they can say things like "the Welsh One" and get away with it. Wales was a major player when the UK had an industrial economy.

I am with Ms Wood in her suggestion that perhaps "Wales should be a little less well behaved". That way we might be even given a second thought. Clearly we're not now.

51A wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:PorFavor

Because it cannot do Miliband any good to be placed on an equal platform, with equal time, as Clegg, Farage, Sturgeon, Bennett and the Welsh One.

All things being equal, no. But things are not equal. There are risks with either option. Having pushed for the debates all this time, would it not do more harm than good not to take part? And taking part in the two 6-7 headers is the price for 90 minutes on prime time TV by himself to help get his message across a week before the election.

Not to mention letting Cameron off the hook. I believe Cameron has taken a small hit over this, which will get bigger if the debates happen without him.

Clearly not equal at all. "the Welsh One"? How long would it have taken to look up the name of "the Welsh One"? (It's Leanne Wood, btw and I think Plaid are getting my vote this time, breaking the Labour voting habit of my adult life.) Under Barnett Wales is unequal, Nicola Strugeon agrees we should have the same as the Scots, we have been treated badly since the 80s and now we don't even get the respect of anyone knowing the name of Plaid Cymru's leader and everyone letting that pass. If you're in Wales you know who Leanne Wood is and her values. I am simply fed up of the rest of the UK thinking they can say things like "the Welsh One" and get away with it. Wales was a major player when the UK had an industrial economy.

I am with Ms Wood in her suggestion that perhaps "Wales should be a little less well behaved". That way we might be even given a second thought. Clearly we're not now.

Yeah, that whole having an assembly and devolution thing; clearly inferior to the joys of devolved government enjoyed by England.

Fundamentally Wales is no worse off than the North, Midlands and South West of England in terms of being ignored.

If you want favouritism vote Tory in large numbers. It works for the South East.

Solar eclipse will plunge the Tories into darkness for years claims 'King Arthur'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/so ... ss-5285624" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think I might become a Druid.....

I see the Indie is reporting Cameron is going to be saved the humiliation of being emptied chaired by being given his 'own BBC show'

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 8m8 minutes ago

Fascinating debates development on front page of the Indy on Sunday

So now why would he ever want to take part in a televised debate when he can his own propoganda hour no doubt with the usual interviewers. Makes me want to weep!

rearofthestore wrote:I see the Indie is reporting Cameron is going to be saved the humiliation of being emptied chaired by being given his 'own BBC show'

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 8m8 minutes ago

Fascinating debates development on front page of the Indy on Sunday

So now why would he ever want to take part in a televised debate when he can his own propoganda hour no doubt with the usual interviewers. Makes me want to weep!

That won't happen, a clear breach of rules on impartiality. Unless of course they give everybody their own show.

Feck me I was only joking

Sky news has an amusing budget rap.

http://news.sky.com/video/1439437/the-s ... rap-battle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera wrote:

rearofthestore wrote:I see the Indie is reporting Cameron is going to be saved the humiliation of being emptied chaired by being given his 'own BBC show'

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 8m8 minutes ago

Fascinating debates development on front page of the Indy on Sunday

So now why would he ever want to take part in a televised debate when he can his own propoganda hour no doubt with the usual interviewers. Makes me want to weep!

That won't happen, a clear breach of rules on impartiality. Unless of course they give everybody their own show.

If this is true... and if it is, it's illegal... then fuck the BBC. I've been a lifelong defender of it, but let's pull the whole thing down, sell it off, crush it. It's dead anyway, the moment it even thought of this.

Half an hour of softball questions from the likes of Marr - doesn't he do that already?

Would be interested to know who this "BBC source" actually is.......

Just caught this on twitter

No MP has to appear on TV with others, but if TV gives time for one leader must by law do same for others

So if this is Fishpointer's latest final offer it could be another own goal

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Half an hour of softball questions from the likes of Marr - doesn't he do that already?

Would be interested to know who this "BBC source" actually is.......

Strikes me as nothing more than kite flying by the Sindy.

Surely any such BBC source would have sold the story to the Times/Telegraph/Mail & Scum than the Indy.

Of course, Twitter is alive with cries of how outrageous it is so job done as far as the Sindy getting attention goes....

Cynical ? Moi ?? Shurley not......

Police and fire brigade are responding to an incident at Westminster, believed to be a man on top of the roof of the Commons.

Sinn Féin has dropped its historic opposition to abortion at its annual congress held in Derry.
The party voted this weekend to support terminations in limited cases, such as pregnant women with fatal foetal abnormalities. This involves women whose babies will be born dead and who have to either go full term in Ireland or seek abortions across the Irish sea in Britain.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-congress" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RobertSnozers wrote:

Toby Latimer wrote:Just caught this on twitter

No MP has to appear on TV with others, but if TV gives time for one leader must by law do same for others

So if this is Fishpointer's latest final offer it could be another own goal

The broadcasters only have to offer the same time, if one leader rejects that offer while others accept, that's their business.

No, different issues.

The debates are just that a debate. Cameron can chose not to attend and it is clear that if he does so then the debate can go ahead without him.

His refusal to attend such a debate does not work as a credit for his own PR show. If they give one leader their own PR slot, they have to do the same for all others.

A bit of light laughter
Nigel Farage Tweeted A Simple Question And People Unsurprisingly Took The Piss

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/ni ... rq4QmJo232" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Hunt accused of covering up critical NHS report

http://gu.com/p/46dnc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect that tonight's front page of the MoS (of all places) might just eclipse the debates soon......

The Moral Maze.
Lib Dem lord confesses he SMUGGLED a boy into the UK and pretended he was his SON
"He lived here with us and went to school here. He has graduated from university with a degree and we are very proud of him.”
The boy in question is now 23 and lives 160 miles away from Lord Hussain and his wife."
Will he/should he, be deported? (no mention of that in article) has lived here most of his life.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/li ... ed-5292296" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I suspect that tonight's front page of the MoS (of all places) might just eclipse the debates soon......

Why oh why would Cameron try and block publication of information detailing what the establishment knew about child abuse?

Just daft.

Tinfoil hat time or are the tories pushing Labour to rule out a coalition with the SNP is to pave the way for them to do the very same thing given the chance?

refitman wrote:

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I suspect that tonight's front page of the MoS (of all places) might just eclipse the debates soon......

And kicking Maggie as well. This one is serious.

So she gave Jimmy Savile a knighthood despite being warned not to and now Cyril Smith.

How long before even Tories decide she was a total disaster as a PM?

TechnicalEphemera wrote:

51A wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote: All things being equal, no. But things are not equal. There are risks with either option. Having pushed for the debates all this time, would it not do more harm than good not to take part? And taking part in the two 6-7 headers is the price for 90 minutes on prime time TV by himself to help get his message across a week before the election.

Not to mention letting Cameron off the hook. I believe Cameron has taken a small hit over this, which will get bigger if the debates happen without him.

Clearly not equal at all. "the Welsh One"? How long would it have taken to look up the name of "the Welsh One"? (It's Leanne Wood, btw and I think Plaid are getting my vote this time, breaking the Labour voting habit of my adult life.) Under Barnett Wales is unequal, Nicola Strugeon agrees we should have the same as the Scots, we have been treated badly since the 80s and now we don't even get the respect of anyone knowing the name of Plaid Cymru's leader and everyone letting that pass. If you're in Wales you know who Leanne Wood is and her values. I am simply fed up of the rest of the UK thinking they can say things like "the Welsh One" and get away with it. Wales was a major player when the UK had an industrial economy.

I am with Ms Wood in her suggestion that perhaps "Wales should be a little less well behaved". That way we might be even given a second thought. Clearly we're not now.

Yeah, that whole having an assembly and devolution thing; clearly inferior to the joys of devolved government enjoyed by England.

I think that I would vote for a quick and silet
Fundamentally Wales is no worse off than the North, Midlands and South West of England in terms of being ignored.

If you want favouritism vote Tory in large numbers. It works for the South East.

I think that I would vote for a quick and quiet death before I'd vote tory. You miss the point, everyone but everyone forgets about Wales and you know what, I live here and we let them. I didn't always live here, I was born in Yorkshire with Welsh heritage, Yorkshire and Wales have so very much in common that some days I laugh about it and other days I cry for their shared losses. But I love this land, this nation as much as I love Yorkshire and "the Welsh One" was just not good enough and I could not let that pass.

My Old Labour Welsh, born and lived in his constituency MP, Paul Murphy is retiring at the GE, I emailed him and wished him well and being the bloke he is, he emailed back and thanked me, no matter what I emailed him about, he got back to me in less than a week. Good bloke. I want that relationship with our next MP, it's what they're there for. This seat is safe Labour, Paul got over 9000 majority last GE, it will go Labour but I want someone like Paul who lives here and loves it. Or I want Plaid. I want someone who knows our difficulties. I'd be right pissed off if, like my dad's cousins, I lived in Mexborough and got someone who hadn't even heard of Doncaster or been around at the Miners's Strike as my MP.

Yes, devolution for the regions, of course. Better still no parachuting into safe seats of PPE Primrose Hill boys with loftier ambitions than helping the people of Mexborough who trust me, even when I lived in Yorkshire (early 80s) were in dire straits.

My MP is at home in his constituency pretty much every weekend, you can get to see him. We are as strapped as Mexborough but at least we had an MP who knew us.

If they parachute one into this safe seat I am going Plaid, I am sick of seeing Labour rolling over.

I cannot vote for them unless they say no more benefit sanctions and take a bloody close look at Capability for Work Assessments. There's a whole lot of other criteria Labour's just rolled over with or even introduced.

So yes, your useful suggestion that we should regionalise I agree with. That it might take parties other than Labour to make us focus on that, I am starting, with reluctance, to get too.

51A

"The Welsh One" was a (poor) attempt at a joke. I know who she is.

51a, Torfaen's Labour candidate was chosen yesterday, he hasn't been parachuted in, local boy made good, solicitor and part time historian, Oxford grad, I wouldn't hold that against him, myself. Oxbridge grads aren't particularly thick on the ground round these parts.

Old Labour myself in many ways, though I do accept this isn't the late 70s and I no longer mess about on grifter bikes. I have seen too many right wing Plaid to consider voting for them, sat opposite one who said she hated unions and wanted all council employees on ZHC, a fair proportion would repeal the hunting act if they could.

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Why oh why would Cameron try and block publication of information detailing what the establishment knew about child abuse?

Just daft.

Unless the aim was to delay the abuse inquiry until after the election? A document being released that showed evidence that St Maggie knew about child abusing MPs and did nothing would have made that impossible and UKIP would have had a field day with it too.

What a useless git Andrew Marr is, they just had him on BBC Breakfast sofa {as they do early every Sunday} to tell viewers what's coming up on his show at 09.00 o'clock.

It went like this "Well from Labour we have Caroline Lucas, and Michael Sheen who this week you might remember from youtube was ranting on about the NHS. So join me at ten. Nine, nine, NINE . I'm on at nine !

Been on the tiles all night with Gideon by the sound of him.

As well as Proctor the Met police have also been searching the homes of Leon Brittan and Lord Brammell, former head of the armed services

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5516/ ... -yorkshire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's great to finally see something happening on all this, but i can't help but suspect that the Met were stopped from seriously perusing this until Brittan was safely dead.

'Does it want some form of Tory government or does it want some form of Labour government? As someone said to the country: “You will decide who’s in charge. Who represents us. You will decide whose hands are on the steering wheel. It can only be me as prime minister – or Ed Miliband as prime minister.”

That was David Cameron speaking yesterday. He’s quite right: it will either be him or Ed Miliband who is prime minister. Which is the unanswerable argument for why there should be a head-to-head debate between the two of them. If the question is whose hand should be on the steering wheel, the country is surely entitled to see a debate between the two contenders to be the nation’s driver. Mr Cameron has manoeuvred himself into the self-evidently absurd position of wanting to have a presidential election, but refusing to have a presidential debate.'

In this game of TV chicken, will David Cameron be first to blink?

http://gu.com/p/46dzm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh look, it's gone up...it's 1500 deaths now!

James Conway 37m ago
This type of behaviour should be a criminal offence.
It reminds me of that Labour guy who was the health secretary in the last government.
Burnham that was him,tried desperately to cover up 1500 deaths at mid staffs.
They are not really going let the guy have a second stab at the job are they,not after 1500 deaths?
Yes they very much are.
The truth is neither the Labour Party or the Tories could run a tea stand,there is zero to choose between them.
Not that you would learn that from the comments on here from the little Labour Party people.
The Labour Party are the party of the six figure public sector yuppie not the party for ordinary working folks.

I've linked to Hansard - again. I should have bookmarked it as I;ve had to use it so often.

This bloody government is so appalling it beggars belief.

We have Hunt refusing to publish the Rose report, which is apparently very critical of NHS management and more so on the Lansley reforms; DOH are pretending that they have expanded the remit so it's all going to take a bit longer......it was completed last December.

We have May pratting about with the CSA enquiry since July of last year, and the new (third) chair is a judge who is regarded as a patsy and who has decided that no survivors will be included on the panel and has yet to get started in any meaningful way.

We have IDS implementing policies which are killing people, with DWP refusing to publish death figures or peer reviews on untoward deaths; we have pregnant women, lone parents, the sick, all being sanctioned with many many more and kids going hungry.

We have our police setting up Twitter accounts to get support for their campaign to stop the cuts, with the most senior policeman in the country warning us that he cannot guarantee our safety if the next tranche of cuts goes ahead.

We have firemen on strike; we have tents outside hospitals for patients to wait in; we have people sleeping on the streets; we have our Armed Forces decimated and attempt to replace them with reservists have failed dismally.

These are just a few of the most recent shenanigans - the last 5 years have been a catalogue of bad policies, divisive rhetoric, outrageous incompetence, with spite and mendacity on a scale that even Thatcher and Blair couldn't manage.

No wonder Cameron won't face Miliband. No wonder he is trying to control his exposure to the people who pay his wages.
Whatever he does now, he will look weak - which is exactly what he is.
If he deigns to turn up, he will attempt to set conditions on the broadcasters which will give him an easy ride.
If he doesn't, he will attempt to get his face in ours in a way he can control and not face the questions he needs to answer.

I am disgusted by him and everything he stands for, and history will not view his tenure kindly.

The treatment, by the BBC to those who tried to expose Savile.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting to the point I no longer want a tv, gone out of the habit of watching it, I no longer care what happens to the BBC.

My local rag

Police break down door of Mansfield man’s flat after DWP told them he could be suicidal

http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/police ... -1-7142688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Turns out Vivienne Westwood is no different to any other businessman/woman.

Gave 300,000 to the Greens, fair enough, a party who advocates tax avoidance laws but then uses an account in Luxembourg that takes away 500,000 tax from this country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... -base.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid wrote:This bloody government is so appalling it beggars belief.

We have Hunt refusing to publish the Rose report, which is apparently very critical of NHS management and more so on the Lansley reforms; DOH are pretending that they have expanded the remit so it's all going to take a bit longer......it was completed last December.

We have May pratting about with the CSA enquiry since July of last year, and the new (third) chair is a judge who is regarded as a patsy and who has decided that no survivors will be included on the panel and has yet to get started in any meaningful way.

We have IDS implementing policies which are killing people, with DWP refusing to publish death figures or peer reviews on untoward deaths; we have pregnant women, lone parents, the sick, all being sanctioned with many many more and kids going hungry.

We have our police setting up Twitter accounts to get support for their campaign to stop the cuts, with the most senior policeman in the country warning us that he cannot guarantee our safety if the next tranche of cuts goes ahead.

We have firemen on strike; we have tents outside hospitals for patients to wait in; we have people sleeping on the streets; we have our Armed Forces decimated and attempt to replace them with reservists have failed dismally.

These are just a few of the most recent shenanigans - the last 5 years have been a catalogue of bad policies, divisive rhetoric, outrageous incompetence, with spite and mendacity on a scale that even Thatcher and Blair couldn't manage.

No wonder Cameron won't face Miliband. No wonder he is trying to control his exposure to the people who pay his wages.
Whatever he does now, he will look weak - which is exactly what he is.
If he deigns to turn up, he will attempt to set conditions on the broadcasters which will give him an easy ride.
If he doesn't, he will attempt to get his face in ours in a way he can control and not face the questions he needs to answer.

I am disgusted by him and everything he stands for, and history will not view his tenure kindly.

Brilliant post Ephe. As they say on W1A, 'very strong'.

Thanks, Oik!

Marr - the ghastly Sarah Baxter (Sunday Times) reckons nobody cares about the debates. Her and the other bloke and Marr had a weird little love-in that reminded me of some of the hideous dinner parties my ex took me to, all self-congratulatory assumptions that their opinions are right and very patronising remarks and snide chortling when they think the political views of others are wrong.

Caroline Flint is brilliant- she won't let Marr get away with talking over her. Some of her colleagues should takes notes.

Sheen is God. And he pointed out to Marr that it's difficult to talk about showbiz when he's being passionate about what's really going on.

Hammond - he is truly sinister, and I think he will be the leader of the Conservative Party at some point. I've said this before. I believe it.

AngryAsWell wrote:A bit of light laughter
Nigel Farage Tweeted A Simple Question And People Unsurprisingly Took The Piss

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/ni ... rq4QmJo232" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for that link. It started my day off with a good laugh

letsskiptotheleft wrote:The treatment, by the BBC to those who tried to expose Savile.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting to the point I no longer want a tv, gone out of the habit of watching it, I no longer care what happens to the BBC.

Morning.At last,spring is here.
I stopped watching TV in 2009,apart from channel 4 news on catchup,which I gave up on 2 years ago.
Don't miss it at all,and buy boxsets if there's something I want to see.e.g,starring David Boreanaz.