Thursday 13th August

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:30 pm

Temulkar wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Here is the link

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/14214 ... ust-answer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Penned by a man who said the "Left, in any recognisable form, is now the enemy".

Yeah, Stephen Pollard is a nasty bit of work.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:31 pm

And claiming Carlos Latuff as a 'notorious anti semetic cartoonist' is a stretch when the Jewish Daily Forward states he is a critic of israel not an anti semite.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:33 pm

The problem for the Anti-Corbynites is the people lining up to damn him are the very people that repel the majority of the party membership.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:37 pm

Looks like he got involved with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... ompetition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which was stupid of him. But agree with you about his cartoons from what I've seen.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:38 pm

Temulkar wrote:The problem for the Anti-Corbynites is the people lining up to damn him are the very people that repel the majority of the party membership.

Pollard personally sure. But lots of other people won't fancy someone who's going to lose lots of Jewish votes.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:48 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:The problem for the Anti-Corbynites is the people lining up to damn him are the very people that repel the majority of the party membership.
Pollard personally sure. But lots of other people won't fancy someone who's going to lose lots of Jewish votes.

Lots and lots, I don't quite follow.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:50 pm

Douglas Carswell MPVerified account
‏@DouglasCarswell Douglas Carswell MP retweeted Asherley
UKIP will accept Labour MPs seeking to escape Corbynism who share our values and desire for real change ;0)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 3:51 pm

I think Corbyn would probably lose Jewish votes, irrespective if you think he's right or not.

We're pretty rapidly adding to the tally of previous non-voters he needs to win over.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:13 pm

Not sure why you deleted that post. It was absolutely fine. This is what I wanted to reply.

Right, but Miliband held out the possibility of achieving stuff on behalf of Palestine as PM, with other European allies. Corbyn doesn't even have that possibility- Israel would find it very easy to split a Corbyn-led UK from other allies. He'd just be pissing away votes for no purpose.

The countries very happy to be in NATO would tell him to fuck off and he'd be weak in the EU. If a Labour leader in the 80s had done what he did with Sinn Fein, the Ulster Unionists would have gone bezerk.

There's a reason people serious about being in the government tend to be more circumspect than politicians who are primarily campaigners like Corbyn.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:17 pm

On another note.

Following the collapse of the Lib Dems in the South West, what are people's thoughts on this region in future elections. Yes, I know, it's a long way off! Do Labour need strong Lib Dems to get such seats back from the Conservatives?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:19 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Not sure why you deleted that post. It was absolutely fine. This is what I wanted to reply.

Right, but Miliband held out the possibility of achieving stuff on behalf of Palestine as PM, with other European allies. Corbyn doesn't even have that possibility- Israel would find it very easy to split a Corbyn-led UK from other allies. He'd just be pissing away votes for no purpose.

The countries very happy to be in NATO would tell him to fuck off and he'd be weak in the EU. If a Labour leader in the 80s had done what he did with Sinn Fein, the Ulster Unionists would have gone bezerk.
There's a reason people serious about being in the government tend to be more circumspect than politicians who are primarily campaigners like Corbyn.

Corbyn voted against the Anglo-Irish agreement on the basis that it would prevent the reunification of Ireland

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/comm ... -agreement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:21 pm

Yeah, that's another position of his that hasn't aged well at all.

Support for maintaining the border is as high as ever in Northern Ireland. And, as things stand, the peace, within the UK looks sustainable.

Having said that, nobody bothered about Ken Livingstone having held the same views as Corbyn.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:31 pm

I daresay this'll upset a few people but hey, I'm feeling bolshie today.

I hope those that have 'left' FTN because of it being pro-Corby are reading today's posts.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:33 pm

And off topic if anyone is still talking to me.

Has anyone else that has progressed to Win10, found their Twitter and Facebook links are missing from news pages?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:35 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: And they will be once we are away from the zlb.

I am not at all sure why you think anything you said refuted my (simple) explanation of QE.

The point of QE is that you can (and are expected to) reverse it. it isn't just cash given to banks. It is an asset purchase scheme, that will go into reverse.

using money that was invented out of thin air. Your description of it as being "balance sheet neutral" is meaningless since every transaction is 'balance sheet neutral since the whole point of one is that it...er...balances.

And it's not that it will go into reverse - it potentially might not - that was the point of me saying that commentators have suggested that they could simply be written off.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:54 pm

ohsocynical wrote:I daresay this'll upset a few people but hey, I'm feeling bolshie today.

I hope those that have 'left' FTN because of it being pro-Corby are reading today's posts.

Me too.

And today's post are actually not all that different from those on other days, either.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 4:55 pm

ohsocynical wrote:I daresay this'll upset a few people but hey, I'm feeling bolshie today.

I hope those that have 'left' FTN because of it being pro-Corby are reading today's posts.

Yeah, I didn't get that too pro-Corby thing either.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:04 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: And they will be once we are away from the zlb.

I am not at all sure why you think anything you said refuted my (simple) explanation of QE.

The point of QE is that you can (and are expected to) reverse it. it isn't just cash given to banks. It is an asset purchase scheme, that will go into reverse.
using money that was invented out of thin air. Your description of it as being "balance sheet neutral" is meaningless since every transaction is 'balance sheet neutral since the whole point of one is that it...er...balances.

And it's not that it will go into reverse - it potentially might not - that was the point of me saying that commentators have suggested that they could simply be written off.

Wouldn't that hurt the solvency of the central bank?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:06 pm

Temulkar wrote:The problem for the Anti-Corbynites is the people lining up to damn him are the very people that repel the majority of the party membership.

That may be true, but it doesn't make what they are saying invalid. I doubt the Corbyn club is going to listen to anybody at this stage. Fortunately the fixed term parliaments act stops Cameron calling a snap election and there will be time for the mess to be sorted out.

Con 35, Lib 20, Lab 20, UKIP 15 isn't an election result I want to see, which is where Corbyn is headed.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:08 pm

ohsocynical wrote:I daresay this'll upset a few people but hey, I'm feeling bolshie today.

I hope those that have 'left' FTN because of it being pro-Corby are reading today's posts.

Yes - I've said previously that it's the standard of the other candidates that makes me lean towards Jeremy Corbyn.
He's no Ed Miliband (who, people may have noticed, I have a lot of time for) and there's a lot in his (JC's) back catalogue that I don't like.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:08 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And off topic if anyone is still talking to me.

Has anyone else that has progressed to Win10, found their Twitter and Facebook links are missing from news pages?

Oddly I have ignored the continued nagging to upgrade to Win 10. Lightroom works brilliantly on windows 7 and that is all I ever use.

Your experience confirms my decision to ignore Richmond Geeks bearing gifts.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:17 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:And off topic if anyone is still talking to me.

Has anyone else that has progressed to Win10, found their Twitter and Facebook links are missing from news pages?
Oddly I have ignored the continued nagging to upgrade to Win 10. Lightroom works brilliantly on windows 7 and that is all I ever use.

Your experience confirms my decision to ignore Richmond Geeks bearing gifts.

But I bought a computer that had Win 8 which was bleeding horrible. Win 8.1 was slightly better but not ideal.
So far this is the only problem I've had which might be because I haven't bothered with or signed up for a lot of the Win10 options and apps.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:17 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Yeah, that's another position of his that hasn't aged well at all.

Support for maintaining the border is as high as ever in Northern Ireland. And, as things stand, the peace, within the UK looks sustainable.

Having said that, nobody bothered about Ken Livingstone having held the same views as Corbyn.
There isn't a border. You just drive up the motorway and at some point the signs change to mph rather than km/h. Movement between the Republic and the North is now so free that it wouldn't surprise me if one day devolution got to the such a level that you'd end up with a kind of federal Ireland with a semi-autonomous North. Decades down the line of course.

The point is that actually the policies of detente have led us to something that feels in some respects like a kind of reunification - closer to reunification than campaigns for formal reunification ever did. But with that, the divisions of the 80s are a lot less meaningful than they were.

Of course it's a border, come on. You go down any road and they start using Euros instead of Pounds.

The Labour left at that time supported a united Ireland. It would all be using Euros now.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:And off topic if anyone is still talking to me.

Has anyone else that has progressed to Win10, found their Twitter and Facebook links are missing from news pages?
Oddly I have ignored the continued nagging to upgrade to Win 10. Lightroom works brilliantly on windows 7 and that is all I ever use.

Your experience confirms my decision to ignore Richmond Geeks bearing gifts.
But I bought a computer that had Win 8 which was bleeding horrible. Win 8.1 was slightly better but not ideal.
So far this is the only problem I've had which might be because I haven't bothered with or signed up for a lot of the Win10 options and apps.

I've upgraded my laptop (I'm leaving my desktop for a bit longer). I haven't noticed this issue, but I'm using Firefox not Edge. The only problem I have had so far is it doesn't save the setting for my synaptic touchpad.

(Also the Settings/Control Panel confusion isn't helping matters)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:29 pm

The Labour left at that time took man in the pub rubbish about Catholic population growth far too seriously. That's where the the sense of inevitability came from. They also didn't at all foresee the IRA giving up.

Socialist Organizer, of all places, puts Tony Benn through the mill here. Benn is absurdly reduced to arguing that Palestinians in 1947 were just like Ulster Unionists and accuses his interlocutor of supporting the Falklands War.

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/200 ... -tony-benn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't particularly care about Cobyn having met Sinn Fein yonks ago, any more than I did about Ken Livingstone who I admire greatly. But I think Corbyn would get hammered for it, and find that he got an important issue wrong very important.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:35 pm

Has Britain’s ‘pissed off’ constituency found a leader in Jeremy Corbyn?

http://theconversation.com/has-britains ... rbyn-45576

I think this pretty much sums the mood out there. And mine.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:40 pm

refitman wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Oddly I have ignored the continued nagging to upgrade to Win 10. Lightroom works brilliantly on windows 7 and that is all I ever use.

Your experience confirms my decision to ignore Richmond Geeks bearing gifts.
But I bought a computer that had Win 8 which was bleeding horrible. Win 8.1 was slightly better but not ideal.
So far this is the only problem I've had which might be because I haven't bothered with or signed up for a lot of the Win10 options and apps.
I've upgraded my laptop (I'm leaving my desktop for a bit longer). I haven't noticed this issue, but I'm using Firefox not Edge. The only problem I have had so far is it doesn't save the setting for my synaptic touchpad.

(Also the Settings/Control Panel confusion isn't helping matters)

I have CCCleaner and cleaned out all the old Windows files. That went okay.

Tried Edge. Bloody dreadful. Twitter was unusable with it. I'm using Google Chrome.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:41 pm

This is not at all a bad article (which we may already have had, and if so, apologies (although I've not spotted it)) -

Cooper has taken on Corbyn, gloves off. Could this be a knockout blow? Polly Toynbee

However, from it -

What’s more radical, she asks – Corbyn’s nationalising of energy companies at a cost of an estimated £185bn, or her proposal to extend Sure Start, “giving mothers the power and confidence to transform their own lives and transform their children’s lives for years to come”.

Really?

Edited to add link

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... t-credible

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 6:26 pm

Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 10m10 minutes ago
The Guardian declares its support for Yvette Cooper. You'll never guess the response

Can't really see what possible interest there is in the G's view of this ... but then I'm utterly disenchanted with the G.

Presumable this declaration was timed to coincide with Cooper's intervention and the sending out of ballot papers.

Can't wait for the declarations from the other press outlets ..........

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 6:42 pm

I know it is sometimes difficult to figure out other people, particularly politically but have just had a bizarre conversation with my neighbour.

A chap from a tree surgery company came and did a 5 yearly check on the trees and hedges impacting on power lines.

He chatted, and quickly confided he was into 'conspiracies', and went on to tell me his neighbours had been responsible for 'killing' his father, he was stockpiling 'stuff' and people could not be trusted and you had to 'take care of yourself, whatever it takes'. Within minutes he confided the police had confiscated his 'weaponry' for 14 months and he had to fight to get it back.
I get a smile fixed on my face and nodded so as not to offend him.

Talking to my neighbour about him, she cheerily told me even more that he had told her when up on her land. That his weaponry was crossbows, he was a 'prepper' and asked if she had weaponry and was like him, preparing for the catastrophe that would soon overwhelm us. He envisions people flooding up from Swansea after such an event and stealing his stuff. All very Mad Max.

Now, most people may think that such a fellow is not that far from thinking his taps are talking to him. But no, my neighbour thinks climate change will be causing the millenial events he forsees within 5, 10, or 15 years. She saw nothing wrong with the notion of creating a zone of weaponry and survivalist food packs and waiting for it to happen.

Crikey...how many people think like that ?
I know she belongs to various green/ecology groups and I naively thought they sat around knitting yoghourt and growing greens. Is it all a bit more scary ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 6:45 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 10m10 minutes ago
The Guardian declares its support for Yvette Cooper. You'll never guess the response
Can't really see what possible interest there is in the G's view of this ... but then I'm utterly disenchanted with the G.

Presumable this declaration was timed to coincide with Cooper's intervention and the sending out of ballot papers.

Can't wait for the declarations from the other press outlets ..........

I don't know about the rest of you, but after the 2015 election if I allow the press and media to influence what I believe and would like to see in the future, then I need my head examining.

And I'm not ga-ga yet.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 6:47 pm

yahyah wrote:I know it is sometimes difficult to figure out other people, particularly politically but have just had a bizarre conversation with my neighbour.

A chap from a tree surgery company came and did a 5 yearly check on the trees and hedges impacting on power lines.

He chatted, and quickly confided he was into 'conspiracies', and went on to tell me his neighbours had been responsible for 'killing' his father, he was stockpiling 'stuff' and people could not be trusted and you had to 'take care of yourself, whatever it takes'. Within minutes he confided the police had confiscated his 'weaponry' for 14 months and he had to fight to get it back.
I get a smile fixed on my face and nodded so as not to offend him.

Talking to my neighbour about him, she cheerily told me even more that he had told her when up on her land. That his weaponry was crossbows, he was a 'prepper' and asked if she had weaponry and was like him, preparing for the catastrophe that would soon overwhelm us. He envisions people flooding up from Swansea after such an event and stealing his stuff. All very Mad Max.

Now, most people may think that such a fellow is not that far from thinking his taps are talking to him. But no, my neighbour thinks climate change will be causing the millenial events he forsees within 5, 10, or 15 years. She saw nothing wrong with the notion of creating a zone of weaponry and survivalist food packs and waiting for it to happen.

Crikey...how many people think like that ?
I know she belongs to various green/ecology groups and I naively thought they sat around knitting yoghourt and growing greens. Is it all a bit more scary ?

Ooops. Working around power lines can fry your brains....

Mr Ohso says you need to have a quiet word in the police's ear. The guy shouldn't be allowed to keep weapons under any circumstances.
My daughter's husband is the same but they live in the States, where that mindset is almost the norm in some areas.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 6:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:@RogerOThornhill

The link's now working.

Apostrophe fail in the first part of the first sentence. The final paragraph is a mess. Very impressive. I hope they didn't spend too long drafting it.

(I hope tinyclanger2 is around!)

Edited

Actually, "first sentence" only as the missive appeared in the version my computer allowed me to see! Oh, well . . .

I am.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:00 pm

yahyah wrote:I know it is sometimes difficult to figure out other people, particularly politically but have just had a bizarre conversation with my neighbour.

A chap from a tree surgery company came and did a 5 yearly check on the trees and hedges impacting on power lines.

He chatted, and quickly confided he was into 'conspiracies', and went on to tell me his neighbours had been responsible for 'killing' his father, he was stockpiling 'stuff' and people could not be trusted and you had to 'take care of yourself, whatever it takes'. Within minutes he confided the police had confiscated his 'weaponry' for 14 months and he had to fight to get it back.
I get a smile fixed on my face and nodded so as not to offend him.

Talking to my neighbour about him, she cheerily told me even more that he had told her when up on her land. That his weaponry was crossbows, he was a 'prepper' and asked if she had weaponry and was like him, preparing for the catastrophe that would soon overwhelm us. He envisions people flooding up from Swansea after such an event and stealing his stuff. All very Mad Max.

Now, most people may think that such a fellow is not that far from thinking his taps are talking to him. But no, my neighbour thinks climate change will be causing the millenial events he forsees within 5, 10, or 15 years. She saw nothing wrong with the notion of creating a zone of weaponry and survivalist food packs and waiting for it to happen.

Crikey...how many people think like that ?
I know she belongs to various green/ecology groups and I naively thought they sat around knitting yoghourt and growing greens. Is it all a bit more scary ?

You seem to have got the very 'eccentric' element of Western Power contractors there yahyah. We've just had the tree surgeons do about a weeks work up here on behalf of WP ... very pleasant and down to earth people - not a crossbow in sight. Best of all - we had a woman on the team - YAY. Oh - and we've now got loads of logs in and tons of chippings to use around the garden.

Meanwhile BT / Openreach will now charge for making repairs to their lines / equipment on any part of your property caused by falling trees, natural events etc. And Ed Vaizey has insisted that DAB radio is wonderful and he will be switching analogue / FM OFF sometime - ignoring the large parts of the country that can't get any DAB signal at all ..... Isn't fragmentation and privatisation of UK infrastructure and assets wonderful.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:13 pm

It's going to be quite some firestorm that will pour out of the Tory media...it's all about baggage - and I said so months ago.

Say what you like about Miliband - and Hugo does ad nauseum - but he had little or no baggage which is why they had to use his old man to get at him.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:21 pm

yahyah wrote:I know it is sometimes difficult to figure out other people, particularly politically but have just had a bizarre conversation with my neighbour.

A chap from a tree surgery company came and did a 5 yearly check on the trees and hedges impacting on power lines.

He chatted, and quickly confided he was into 'conspiracies', and went on to tell me his neighbours had been responsible for 'killing' his father, he was stockpiling 'stuff' and people could not be trusted and you had to 'take care of yourself, whatever it takes'. Within minutes he confided the police had confiscated his 'weaponry' for 14 months and he had to fight to get it back.
I get a smile fixed on my face and nodded so as not to offend him.

Talking to my neighbour about him, she cheerily told me even more that he had told her when up on her land. That his weaponry was crossbows, he was a 'prepper' and asked if she had weaponry and was like him, preparing for the catastrophe that would soon overwhelm us. He envisions people flooding up from Swansea after such an event and stealing his stuff. All very Mad Max.

Now, most people may think that such a fellow is not that far from thinking his taps are talking to him. But no, my neighbour thinks climate change will be causing the millenial events he forsees within 5, 10, or 15 years. She saw nothing wrong with the notion of creating a zone of weaponry and survivalist food packs and waiting for it to happen.

Crikey...how many people think like that ?
I know she belongs to various green/ecology groups and I naively thought they sat around knitting yoghourt and growing greens. Is it all a bit more scary ?

I remember with horror going to my parents house to visit after the "Threads" programme was broadcast in 1984.

My dad was furious that all his bits and bobs (old carburettors, tins with bits of metal in, rusting drill bits, etc.) were being taken out of their home in the cupboard under the stairs because my mum was planning to fill it up with dry groceries and tinned stuff in the event of a nuclear winter. She was utterly convinced that we would be bombed, and no amount of telling her that if we were a few tins wouldn't do a lot to sort out her survival (if she wasn't evaporated) made any difference.

So all his kit ended up in someone elses' shed (including parts from a treasured old Riley he'd restored) and she got her way. It has been my experience that German hausfraus generally do....

Of course, we weren't nuked; but a few years later, when the "tombstone" AIDs leaflets started hitting the doormats, she decided that she had been right all along and she knew there would be a need for her stores in the end.
She wasn't able to explain how a few people getting a very nasty illness was in any way similar to a nuclear holocaust, but hey....

She got rid of all dad's stuff when he got sick a few years before he died. When she popped off herself a few years later, we found a massive stash of food in the shed. Massive. None of it usable.

I suspect your tree surgeon with the crossbows is more than a little bit odd. If he thinks a few bolts are going to stop the Swansea Massive if they want his stuff (I don't think they do) he's even more deluded than is immediately obvious.

And none of us, yahyah, can actually be absolutely totally sure that we are not being monitored via the taps, now can we?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:40 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:

It's going to be quite some firestorm that will pour out of the Tory media...it's all about baggage - and I said so months ago.

Say what you like about Miliband - and Hugo does ad nauseum - but he had little or no baggage which is why they had to use his old man to get at him.

Indeed.

Whereas the Chair for the Stop the War Coalition (sic) has 30 years of Bennite stuff with which to be attacked.

But I am sure it will all turn out well and he'll see sense and resign. Or something.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:46 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: And they will be once we are away from the zlb.

I am not at all sure why you think anything you said refuted my (simple) explanation of QE.

The point of QE is that you can (and are expected to) reverse it. it isn't just cash given to banks. It is an asset purchase scheme, that will go into reverse.
using money that was invented out of thin air. Your description of it as being "balance sheet neutral" is meaningless since every transaction is 'balance sheet neutral since the whole point of one is that it...er...balances.

And it's not that it will go into reverse - it potentially might not - that was the point of me saying that commentators have suggested that they could simply be written off.

If I gave you £1m how is that balance sheet neutral?

If I spend £1m on coal whitening how is that balance sheet neutral?

I agree that if I spend £1m buying £1m of assets that is balance sheet neutral. But that is not what 'People's QE' actually entails.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:48 pm

Evening all,

Thank you for your responses to my post at the weekend. I intended to post again later but had computer problems. And then the last few days I've had a friend staying. I've now caught up on posts many of which have been really thought provoking. Two in particular really got me musing. Firstly one from yahyah about the possibility of Tories and people from the right, paying their £3 in the hope of destroying the Labour party from that angle.

As I've said previously, as a party [locally] we haven't discussed this. But I got to wondering what might have happened if we had. Knowing the local members, I think they take the same view as me - we shouldn't get involved in the democratic process of another party. But being cynical, there could have been two other positions;

1) Vote for the candidate who's views are most closely aligned to ours.
2) Vote for the most right wing candidate in the hope it would drive more people away from Labour and towards us.

As I say we had no such discussion but if we had and those options were suggested, I'd have argued against both. And if there'd been support for 2) I think I probably would have had to consider leaving the party.

On to musing number two. TE I believe suggested that if the Tories run such a scheme and there was the chance to vote IDS as their leader and get them out of power that way, people might go for it. I wouldn't. But I got to wondering about it from the opposite angle. What if there were such a scheme in the Tory party and, they had an old fashioned Tory standing who was on the left of the Tory party. Might non Tory people join and vote for him/her in order to try and drag the Tories a little more left? Or I suppose I should say centre. Well, I'm sure you know what I mean.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 8:03 pm

I was wondering why the G left out Health as one of the topics they covered in their 'Who should I vote for as Labour leader?' article - which summarises the respective positions of the 4 candidates on a variety of areas.

Now I'm wondering if it was a deliberate omission - given that it's the really distinctive area for Andy Burnham - knowing they were going to come out in favour of Yvette Cooper. I can't understand why else they would ignore one of the major issues for our country and government - health and social care.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 8:38 pm

StephenDolan wrote:On another note.

Following the collapse of the Lib Dems in the South West, what are people's thoughts on this region in future elections. Yes, I know, it's a long way off! Do Labour need strong Lib Dems to get such seats back from the Conservatives?

Yes. There are many areas of the South West which Labour have never won, natural Tory seats, that the Libdems have been denying the Tories since the 1990s, throughout the New Labour government in fact, with help from Labour tactical voters. Winning an election with these seats back in Tory control is a whole different ballgame to 1997. A quick Libdem revival would therefore be very helpful to Labour. It's not gonna happen, though, is it?

Edited to add:
"Had" been denying, not have, of course!

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 8:47 pm

Willow904 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:On another note.

Following the collapse of the Lib Dems in the South West, what are people's thoughts on this region in future elections. Yes, I know, it's a long way off! Do Labour need strong Lib Dems to get such seats back from the Conservatives?
Yes. There are many areas of the South West which Labour have never won, natural Tory seats, that the Libdems have been denying the Tories since the 1990s, throughout the New Labour government in fact, with help from Labour tactical voters. Winning an election with these seats back in Tory control is a whole different ballgame to 1997. A quick Libdem revival would therefore be very helpful to Labour. It's not gonna happen, though, is it?

On the other hand, the Greens have started doing well is some SW areas.......

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 8:47 pm

Willow904 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:On another note.

Following the collapse of the Lib Dems in the South West, what are people's thoughts on this region in future elections. Yes, I know, it's a long way off! Do Labour need strong Lib Dems to get such seats back from the Conservatives?
Yes. There are many areas of the South West which Labour have never won, natural Tory seats, that the Libdems have been denying the Tories since the 1990s, throughout the New Labour government in fact, with help from Labour tactical voters. Winning an election with these seats back in Tory control is a whole different ballgame to 1997. A quick Libdem revival would therefore be very helpful to Labour. It's not gonna happen, though, is it?

Will take a very different kind of Lib Dem approach and offer - one that makes them totally distinctive from the Tories and promises they won't go into coalition with them ... to woo back those who really don't want the Tories back in but know Labour doesn't have a chance in many of those seats ... and those who voted Tory but might be swayable. And - probably needs the Tories to implode big time on an issue that affects many people in those mainly rural seats. Serious flooding again might do it - another economic collapse affecting employment / precarious small businesses. Not to mention the Lib Dems actually being able to generate some headlines ... they're hardly doing that at the moment.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 8:55 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:On another note.

Following the collapse of the Lib Dems in the South West, what are people's thoughts on this region in future elections. Yes, I know, it's a long way off! Do Labour need strong Lib Dems to get such seats back from the Conservatives?
Yes. There are many areas of the South West which Labour have never won, natural Tory seats, that the Libdems have been denying the Tories since the 1990s, throughout the New Labour government in fact, with help from Labour tactical voters. Winning an election with these seats back in Tory control is a whole different ballgame to 1997. A quick Libdem revival would therefore be very helpful to Labour. It's not gonna happen, though, is it?
On the other hand, the Greens have started doing well is some SW areas.......

If you're suggesting Labour and Greens join up against the Tories in a similar tactical pact as previously happened with the Libdems, I could definitely see some mileage in that. Only a unified left block vote can oust the Tories in the SW. They managed an MEP apiece in the EU elections and I was happy to get both of them instead of the Ukip and Libdem. The only high point of late gor the left.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 9:30 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Yes. There are many areas of the South West which Labour have never won, natural Tory seats, that the Libdems have been denying the Tories since the 1990s, throughout the New Labour government in fact, with help from Labour tactical voters. Winning an election with these seats back in Tory control is a whole different ballgame to 1997. A quick Libdem revival would therefore be very helpful to Labour. It's not gonna happen, though, is it?
On the other hand, the Greens have started doing well is some SW areas.......
If you're suggesting Labour and Greens join up against the Tories in a similar tactical pact as previously happened with the Libdems, I could definitely see some mileage in that. Only a unified left block vote can oust the Tories in the SW. They managed an MEP apiece in the EU elections and I was happy to get both of them instead of the Ukip and Libdem. The only high point of late gor the left.

Pretty much yes. Caroline Lucas suggested Labour and the Greens should work together where possible and some Labour MPs seem to be amenable to that. As I've said before, I'm something of a 'watermelon' but tbh, many Greens are. Especially more recent members. Locally a number of our newer members are ex Labour. But equally, a number are ex Lib dem. And there's a fair smattering of never joined any party before members. At the same time, I know and am friends with many local Labour members and Councillors who told me privately that they agreed with our GE candidate more than the Labour candidate [though natch they voted for the Labour candidate]. So, there clearly is the potential for agreement. I can see positive outcomes from such an arrangement.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 9:43 pm

Don't think this has been linked to - apologies if it has. And just to say, I'm neither endorsing or disagreeing with the views expressed. Just found it amusing in places.

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015 ... und-to-me/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 9:53 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 10m10 minutes ago
The Guardian declares its support for Yvette Cooper. You'll never guess the response
Can't really see what possible interest there is in the G's view of this ... but then I'm utterly disenchanted with the G.

Presumable this declaration was timed to coincide with Cooper's intervention and the sending out of ballot papers.

Can't wait for the declarations from the other press outlets ..........

Yep, I look forward for the Telegraph, Times and Mail endorsing Corbyn.

The Express will probably argue for Benn/Heffer (being decades out of date), and the Sport for Bevans ghost (still living on the moon).

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 9:58 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: On the other hand, the Greens have started doing well is some SW areas.......
If you're suggesting Labour and Greens join up against the Tories in a similar tactical pact as previously happened with the Libdems, I could definitely see some mileage in that. Only a unified left block vote can oust the Tories in the SW. They managed an MEP apiece in the EU elections and I was happy to get both of them instead of the Ukip and Libdem. The only high point of late gor the left.
Pretty much yes. Caroline Lucas suggested Labour and the Greens should work together where possible and some Labour MPs seem to be amenable to that. As I've said before, I'm something of a 'watermelon' but tbh, many Greens are. Especially more recent members. Locally a number of our newer members are ex Labour. But equally, a number are ex Lib dem. And there's a fair smattering of never joined any party before members. At the same time, I know and am friends with many local Labour members and Councillors who told me privately that they agreed with our GE candidate more than the Labour candidate [though natch they voted for the Labour candidate]. So, there clearly is the potential for agreement. I can see positive outcomes from such an arrangement.

I would definitely support some sort of common left block in key target seats, possibly linked to a deal on PR, or alternatively if that is a step too far the creation of regional parliaments elected via PR.

Whether this would hurt or help the Lib Dems in the South West is an interesting question. However if Corbyn gets elected the Lib Dems will stand on an anti Labour centre left sanity platform.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 10:09 pm

I wonder now if Greens withdrawing helps Labour that muchin practice.

They didn't run in Lincoln. Tory majority went up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_(UK_Parliament_constituency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

I think Labour would just get stuck answering questions about the Greens in the campaign.

Independents that all could agree to support, like Martin Bell, in Tatton, might be better.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 10:20 pm

Cooper did just what everyone else would have done with Home Affairs brief. It's not really a sign how she'd be as leader.

Once Clarke/Howard broke the consensus on crime/punishment, Blair moved quickly to stop them picking up small c Labour voters.

It might be different now, with Gove. I think he'd back reducing the prison population and selling jails. I hope Labour respond to this in positive way. Cooper attacked Clarke (as Justice Minister) from the right, which was poor but the Tories were rattled and backed down.