FlyTheNest

tinyclanger2 wrote:Given Blair and New Labour was what Thatcher considered her greatest achievement, I'm not sure that the support for Corbyn is much of a surprise. It's a lesser of several evils situation:

Some see the slightly less bad Tories as the lesser of said evils; others see Corbyn taking the party to the left as slightly less terrible. None of us are exactly ecstatic about either. Says more about the 1000 years of putting a tiny fraction of "types" from a highly diverse population into all the positions of power.

As Shamus Rahman Khan points out in Privilege: the making of an adolescent elite at St. Paul’s School, (US) opening this elite school’s doors to diversity did not create equality, just, as Khan puts it himself, “a more diverse elite within a more unequal world”. Putting it another way, “expanding access to the elite institutions does not so much change the establishment thinking as change the composition of the establishment”

This is the problem with my own bugbear - our total dependence on people who've been to Oxbridge to run everything. Including Labour.

RobertSnozers wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Burnham Cambridge
Cooper Oxford
Corbyn North London Poly
Kendall Cambridge

Deputies are marginally "better" - but still hardly representative of the UK
Bradshaw Sussex
Creasy Cambridge
Eagle Oxford
Flint UEA
Watson Hull

So if your father's a telephone engineer like Burnham, it's bad if you go to Oxbridge?

I thought social mobility was supposed to be the name of the game?

The effect of Oxbridge can be simply to induct people into the establishment, rather than to overturn it. The same went for subsidising people on lower incomes to go to public schools. While 40+ per cent of Oxbridge intake went to public schools, it remains as much part of the problem as part of the solution. Oxbridge has to be made to take people from wider backgrounds - too many people in postgraduate courses did their undergrad degrees at Oxbridge too. But what I really want to see is people from a range of equally excellent universities in government (and perhaps even some without a university education).

RobertSnozers wrote:
The effect of Oxbridge can be simply to induct people into the establishment, rather than to overturn it.

rebeccariots2 wrote:Telephone engineers are a touchy subject chez Riots at the mo.

I'll just say that tomorrow we are expecting (that might be too definite a term) the sixth visit in 3 weeks by an Openreach engineer. In the vague hope that they might actually carry out the inspection that they promised to do on the first visit and still have not done ... which requires a cherry picker ... I have parked my car down by the post boxes so I can actually get out to work tomorrow. I've just walked the mile back to our house. They'd better come.

RobertSnozers wrote:
Quite. My sister was lucky enough to study postgraduate medicine at Wolfson College, Cambridge, during a period when the course convener was committed to taking people from different backgrounds to the usual public school/Oxbridge route (she had a comprehensive secondary education and was an undergrad at Southampton). Unfortunately, the next course convener reverted to type, offering as an explanation 'but they interview so well.' If Oxbridge can be harnessed in the right way, it can serve the commonwealth. If left as it is, it mainly serves the establishment. Too much is tokenism. (My sister also has strong views on the people who came up through public school/Oxbridge - they are not always the best by any means, they have just been better prepared to run things).

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:
The effect of Oxbridge can be simply to induct people into the establishment, rather than to overturn it.

How does this work exactly? I don't understand this.

I mainly recall people studying fairly hard and then getting fairly high-powered jobs. What difference would I find if I compared them to similar people who went to other universities with similar A levels or indeed similar jobs at the end of it?

Describing the MP for Islington North’s success in the campaign as the “biggest upset in political betting history”, Paddy Power is so certain that Corbyn will win that it is paying out £100,000, even though polling closes on 10 September.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 61114.html

tinyclanger2 wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:
The effect of Oxbridge can be simply to induct people into the establishment, rather than to overturn it.

How does this work exactly? I don't understand this.

I mainly recall people studying fairly hard and then getting fairly high-powered jobs. What difference would I find if I compared them to similar people who went to other universities with similar A levels or indeed similar jobs at the end of it?

Because a very disproportionate number of people going through Oxbridge either stem from and /or end up in the positions that comprise "the Establishment". It's essentially just bean counting from people incapable of making qualitative assessments about other people they don't quite "get". It's not about quality it's about a belief that these two institutions churn out the only people in the UK who can do anything.

And it's silly.

ohsocynical wrote:

Describing the MP for Islington North’s success in the campaign as the “biggest upset in political betting history”, Paddy Power is so certain that Corbyn will win that it is paying out £100,000, even though polling closes on 10 September.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 61114.html

Or is this an attempt to trick people into thinking it really is a done deal so they don't need to bother putting their vote in?

A bit like the polls having Ed in front at the GE.

ephemerid wrote:The Showmaster goes in to hospital tomorrow for what was supposed to be Plan B after Plan A got cancelled, but is now Plan C.
This is why I love our NHS when a centre of excellence checks, double checks, and checks again.

Plan A was cancelled as his surgeon couldn't do his list (he's a busy bloke with a huge specialised catchment) which is fair enough; before this, Show had had a battery of tests/scans etc. which we didn't think he'd need to have done again.

Plan B was for him to have all those tests done again, on the grounds that anything could have happened in the month in between; but hopefully he could have the operation tomorrow. The tests he had on Monday have shown some slight deterioration, so the planned surgery will be a little bit more complex.
Because of this, they decided to do a few other tests as he might be longer in surgery - these have shown up some problem with his heart, possibly related to the arterial problems, so he has to go in as planned, but for more tests before the surgery.

Plan C - so far - is admission tomorrow morning for the new tests and as long as any problems are manageable, surgery on Thursday.

Yes, it's a bit annoying; and yes, it's a bit more than just a bit worrying - but the care the team are taking to make sure he's properly prepared and as fit as he can be before the operation is very reassuring for him and for me. I know he's in excellent hands.
This is what the best of our NHS can do when it has the right funding and the right sort of management. Show's going to a specialist unit, and the nursing staff are all trained in this sort of work.

And this is why we must fight for it - there is absolutely no way that we could afford to pay for this surgery or the nursing care he will have. Yet doing this now will not only increase his quality of life, it will prevent some very serious and expensive problems down the line.
In fact, even if we could afford private treatment - and this is important - he would not get better treatment anywhere in the UK.

We are so lucky - as Aneurin Bevan said - "The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it"

tinyclanger2 wrote:They don't go through the pipeline. That's what I mean by "effectively bean counting". You get the job because you went to Oxbridge - not because you're the best person for it.

It's quite simple - and I don't know why it's apparently contentious. People who went to Oxbridge are not automatically better or cleverer than the rest of us - and indeed often the opposite. We just all believe it.

And it's the believing it that's the problem.

tinyclanger2 wrote:They don't go through the pipeline. That's what I mean by "effectively bean counting". You get the job because you went to Oxbridge - not because you're the best person for it.

It's quite simple - and I don't know why it's apparently contentious. People who went to Oxbridge are not automatically better or cleverer than the rest of us - and indeed often the opposite. We just all believe it.

And it's the believing it that's the problem.

ephemerid wrote:The Showmaster goes in to hospital tomorrow for what was supposed to be Plan B after Plan A got cancelled, but is now Plan C.
This is why I love our NHS when a centre of excellence checks, double checks, and checks again.

Plan A was cancelled as his surgeon couldn't do his list (he's a busy bloke with a huge specialised catchment) which is fair enough; before this, Show had had a battery of tests/scans etc. which we didn't think he'd need to have done again.

Plan B was for him to have all those tests done again, on the grounds that anything could have happened in the month in between; but hopefully he could have the operation tomorrow. The tests he had on Monday have shown some slight deterioration, so the planned surgery will be a little bit more complex.
Because of this, they decided to do a few other tests as he might be longer in surgery - these have shown up some problem with his heart, possibly related to the arterial problems, so he has to go in as planned, but for more tests before the surgery.

Plan C - so far - is admission tomorrow morning for the new tests and as long as any problems are manageable, surgery on Thursday.

I hope this plan works out - partly because I hate seeing him in so much pain; and also because the quicker it's done the more likely it is that there will be no more complications.
The hospital is 50 miles away from Hay, and although I'm going in with him (a friend is taking us) there is a limit to how many 100-mile round trips I can cope with myself....
Yes, it's a bit annoying; and yes, it's a bit more than just a bit worrying - but the care the team are taking to make sure he's properly prepared and as fit as he can be before the operation is very reassuring for him and for me. I know he's in excellent hands.
This is what the best of our NHS can do when it has the right funding and the right sort of management. Show's going to a specialist unit, and the nursing staff are all trained in this sort of work.

And this is why we must fight for it - there is absolutely no way that we could afford to pay for this surgery or the nursing care he will have. Yet doing this now will not only increase his quality of life, it will prevent some very serious and expensive problems down the line.
In fact, even if we could afford private treatment - and this is important - he would not get better treatment anywhere in the UK.

We are so lucky - as Aneurin Bevan said - "The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it"

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:They don't go through the pipeline. That's what I mean by "effectively bean counting". You get the job because you went to Oxbridge - not because you're the best person for it.

It's quite simple - and I don't know why it's apparently contentious. People who went to Oxbridge are not automatically better or cleverer than the rest of us - and indeed often the opposite. We just all believe it.

And it's the believing it that's the problem.

But you'd expect lots of the people who met the requirements to Oxford (high exam grades, skill in interviews) to get top "Milk Round" jobs 4 years later.

Entry or not to Oxbridge can be marginal. I would guess the people who miss out marginally go to eg Bristol, Durham and then apply and get the same jobs.

RobertSnozers wrote:
1) They don't have the contacts they built up from other scions of the establishment that will form networks in fields such as politics, media, banking
2) They don't have the constant reinforcement that they are the best, and the best people to run the country

tinyclanger2 wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:They don't go through the pipeline. That's what I mean by "effectively bean counting". You get the job because you went to Oxbridge - not because you're the best person for it.

It's quite simple - and I don't know why it's apparently contentious. People who went to Oxbridge are not automatically better or cleverer than the rest of us - and indeed often the opposite. We just all believe it.

And it's the believing it that's the problem.

But you'd expect lots of the people who met the requirements to Oxford (high exam grades, skill in interviews) to get top "Milk Round" jobs 4 years later.

Entry or not to Oxbridge can be marginal. I would guess the people who miss out marginally go to eg Bristol, Durham and then apply and get the same jobs.

But that's all part of the same thinking. 26 % of BBC execs are Oxbridge another swathe then the oxbridge wannabes (you forgot St Andrew's by the way).

It's still the same problem only bigger. It's about lack of diversity in thinking and experience. We cannot solve all the problems that we face if all the people making decisions think in the same way.

TI wrote:You're talking about a small subset of Oxbridge and even public schools. Mostly it's just people good at exams and interviews "getting on", for want of a better expression.

1,000 sq miles of England to be opened up for fracking
Large areas of Yorkshire, north-west and east Midlands earmarked for oil and gas exploration as government announces it will offer licences for 27 new sites

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... d-licences" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP admits inventing quotes from fake 'benefits claimants' for sanctions leaflet
Department for Work and Pensions makes admission following FoI request from Welfare Weekly about leaflet featuring bogus sickness benefit claimants

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... or-leaflet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 wrote:

TI wrote:You're talking about a small subset of Oxbridge and even public schools. Mostly it's just people good at exams and interviews "getting on", for want of a better expression.

No. From my link above:

Figures for top people who went to Oxford and Cambridge paint a similar picture.
Some 75% of senior judges, 59% of the Cabinet, 57% of permanent secretaries, 50% of diplomats, 47% of newspaper columnists, 38% of the House of Lords, 33% of the shadow cabinet and 24% of MPs hold Oxbridge degrees.
In contrast, less than 1% of the whole population are Oxbridge graduates while 62% did not attend university, says the study.

ephemerid wrote:The Showmaster goes in to hospital tomorrow for what was supposed to be Plan B after Plan A got cancelled, but is now Plan C.
This is why I love our NHS when a centre of excellence checks, double checks, and checks again.

Plan A was cancelled as his surgeon couldn't do his list (he's a busy bloke with a huge specialised catchment) which is fair enough; before this, Show had had a battery of tests/scans etc. which we didn't think he'd need to have done again.

Plan B was for him to have all those tests done again, on the grounds that anything could have happened in the month in between; but hopefully he could have the operation tomorrow. The tests he had on Monday have shown some slight deterioration, so the planned surgery will be a little bit more complex.
Because of this, they decided to do a few other tests as he might be longer in surgery - these have shown up some problem with his heart, possibly related to the arterial problems, so he has to go in as planned, but for more tests before the surgery.

Plan C - so far - is admission tomorrow morning for the new tests and as long as any problems are manageable, surgery on Thursday.

I hope this plan works out - partly because I hate seeing him in so much pain; and also because the quicker it's done the more likely it is that there will be no more complications.
The hospital is 50 miles away from Hay, and although I'm going in with him (a friend is taking us) there is a limit to how many 100-mile round trips I can cope with myself....
Yes, it's a bit annoying; and yes, it's a bit more than just a bit worrying - but the care the team are taking to make sure he's properly prepared and as fit as he can be before the operation is very reassuring for him and for me. I know he's in excellent hands.
This is what the best of our NHS can do when it has the right funding and the right sort of management. Show's going to a specialist unit, and the nursing staff are all trained in this sort of work.

And this is why we must fight for it - there is absolutely no way that we could afford to pay for this surgery or the nursing care he will have. Yet doing this now will not only increase his quality of life, it will prevent some very serious and expensive problems down the line.
In fact, even if we could afford private treatment - and this is important - he would not get better treatment anywhere in the UK.

We are so lucky - as Aneurin Bevan said - "The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it"

citizenJA wrote:Good-evening, everyone.
Apologies for not checking in with you all sooner.

I don't know what to do about either of these two recent stories & I'm frightened because it's evidence of total insanity on the part of current Tory government.

1,000 sq miles of England to be opened up for fracking
Large areas of Yorkshire, north-west and east Midlands earmarked for oil and gas exploration as government announces it will offer licences for 27 new sites

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... d-licences" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP admits inventing quotes from fake 'benefits claimants' for sanctions leaflet
Department for Work and Pensions makes admission following FoI request from Welfare Weekly about leaflet featuring bogus sickness benefit claimants

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... or-leaflet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What are we supposed to do?
Government lies.
Government subjecting the population to further environmental catastrophe.
I don't know what to do.

ephemerid wrote:

citizenJA wrote:Good-evening, everyone.
Apologies for not checking in with you all sooner.

I don't know what to do about either of these two recent stories & I'm frightened because it's evidence of total insanity on the part of current Tory government.

1,000 sq miles of England to be opened up for fracking
Large areas of Yorkshire, north-west and east Midlands earmarked for oil and gas exploration as government announces it will offer licences for 27 new sites

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... d-licences" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP admits inventing quotes from fake 'benefits claimants' for sanctions leaflet
Department for Work and Pensions makes admission following FoI request from Welfare Weekly about leaflet featuring bogus sickness benefit claimants

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... or-leaflet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What are we supposed to do?
Government lies.
Government subjecting the population to further environmental catastrophe.
I don't know what to do.

Fight, JA.

Campaign, complain, argue, write, blog, go to meetings, fight, then do it all again, then fight some more.
Join groups, call people, do all the above, then fight a bit more.

It works if you keep at it. The Spartacus people, the DPAC people - disabled, sick, and fighting.
The Boycott Workfare people, the bloggers. the writers, the supporters - all fighting too.

Gandhi - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Right! That's quite enough of all that. I'm off to bed - got a long day tomorrow.
Thanks for the good wishes for Show - I'll pass them on.

HindleA wrote:Echoing regards to Showmaster and appreciation for the NHS.We happen to get continuing care via the NHS.Better half not well today so it has been like a hospital ward for most of the day with numerous visitations from GP's;District nurses,community nurses and care staff and the knowledge should we require it.,Extra"pain/sickness relief administered throughout the night.

tinyclanger2 wrote:Moreover what's wrong with being a telephone engineer?

RobertSnozers wrote:
'Getting on?' You'll be chucking 'aspirational' at me next. Respectfully, that's significantly bollocks. Much of it is about the school. Schools that are focussed on getting students into Oxbridge prepare them for the Oxbridge wants to see in the interviews, as well as making sure they have the extra-curriculars to set them apart. That includes a small number of state schools - look at state-educated politicos who went to Oxbridge like Stella Creasy, and you'll see many of the same schools. Colchester Girls Grammar is a powerhouse. It's every bit as much an establishment school as a Repton or a Marlborough. 7% of the population go to public school, 43% of Oxbridge intake did - and I wonder what proportion of the rest are from the elite state schools? Incidentally, I was in the top few students in my year, and it was a good year - the school was reasonably good but had only had 2-3 Oxbridge students in the past. Mostly people didn't apply. I think five did in my year. I got three As and a B, and an S level. The first question I got asked on my open day at Caius was 'how many people does your school usually send to this college?' They didn't like the answer. None of us from my school got in, in any college. I think one got as far as the pool, and she was one of the most talented people I've ever met. I got a first at Kent, by the way, then won funding to do a research Master's. Don't know any deputy mayors or BBC producers though.

DWPVerified account@DWP
You may have seen the case study story trending here on Twitter. To let you all know we've removed them now - they were illustrative only

Declan Gaffney ‏@djmgaffneyw4 50m50 minutes ago
Declan Gaffney retweeted DWP
Illustrative of what, one wonders? Of claimant experience? Of what the dept & its ministers fondly wish were true?

Declan Gaffney ‏@djmgaffneyw4 48m48 minutes ago
Still, look forward to the future career of 'illustrative only' as yet another euphemism for making things up.

RobertSnozers wrote:

TechnicalEphemera wrote:On the subject of the NHS, one of the biggest problems right now is they have broken the commissioner provider split. So GPs commission crap services that they themselves provide.

...And can make money from

tinyclanger2 wrote:And once more for you at the back: the problem is the belief that as long as everyone's been educated at Oxbridge then the solutions are to hand.
I'm afraid I do not believe this to be the case.
Oxbridge does not and cannot teach us everything we know to solve the problems we face. We need to select a broader range of problem solvers and representatives.

(I use "oxbridge" in a broadish sense, which would include other institutions with the same basic aspirations, approaches and largely similar demographic - only without the extra funding that Oxbridge gets)