Friday 4th September

[howsillyofme1]

Well for all the long posts made by Hugo he seems to miss the point I am making.

In the 1980s there was very little privatized but since then the Government has privatized a whole lot of monopolies and strategically important industries. Also many outsourcing projects to Crapita and the like creating quasi-Governmental organizations. The focus is always on cost (based it seems mainly on cutting staff cost) without very much care on the quality of work provided

I have not seen Corbyn saying everything should be nationalized but I can reel of at least 20 privitized organizations or functions that should never have been sold off and should be brought back under state control (what control means can differ)

The privatization project was a massive move to the right and has actually been very bad. We should, as a party, quite clearly say why certain organizations should not be under private control, and say that we should endeavor to do so where possible understanding that it is may not happen because of the cost. That very cost demonstrating the value lost to the Government and given to the private sector to milk

We should also make clear that the 'private' in a lot of cases actually means foreign Government companies, including China and Qatar. Public ownership seems only to be an issue if it is British public ownership

Corbyn is of the left but is he really arguing the same as in 1980? I have seen nothing that suggests he is. In fact he is right to raise questions about battles that have been lost....the winner of battles is not based on being right!

If people on hear believe that in the unchallenging acceptance of nuclear arms, the continued acceptance of trade union laws, the acceptance of Osbornomics, the acceptance of low spending and low taxation, the acceptance of all privatizations and the need to move further to pander to Tory voters then the are über Thatcherite despite what they say and have no place in any Labour Party worthy of the name

Corbyn has said nothing that would not have been considered mainstream Labour in the run up to the elections in the 90s. Reading some of the comments here makes me wonder what you would have called John Smith or Blair when he first too over?

I really disagree with that analysis, the world is profoundly different today and yes Corbyn is on the far left (he is also promising stuff he has no clue how to deliver).

It is utterly impractical to reverse the privatisations of the past today, there are far better things to spend that money on. Nobody is arguing for a return to pre-Thatcher union legislation, although nobody accepts the further restrictions Osborne is proposing.

Unilateral nuclear disarmament is not and must not be mainstream Labour policy or indeed thinking. It hammered the party in 83 and 87 until Kinnock (not a Blairite) booted the policy so he could talk to the electorate about stuff that actually mattered to them without having to depend a stupid policy on page one of every bloody interview.

I am not surprised you disagree

You and Hugo seem to argue that we have to accept what we have now and just tinker with it to make it more palatable. The main focus for you are the Tory voters who swallow the lines fed them by the Tories on the economy and by not challenging them leads us to just drift further to the right


We have had 35 years of right wing Government since 1979. Some of the Labour years bucked that trend but definitely not all even though their biggest mistakes were from being to tolerant of big business and finance

I can accept that privatization is not really possible due to the cost but that doesn't mean we should say why it was mistake and that a significant amount of our services are actually state owned, just not by us. Strategically important industry being owned by Other Governments including non democratic ones! How many people are really aware of that?

We could also ensure that no more outsourcing occurs unless it delivers equivalent quality at a better price. No longer accept crap service because it is cheaper...in the end the cost to the taxpayer is often higher than before

Also I would want a future Government to start to roll back the anti-Union legislation put in place since 1979. The world is different now and collective arrangements need to be available again. The neutering of unions has led to too much power to the employers.

As to defence: why is it off the table to discuss getting rid of an expensive and irrelevant boys toy like nuclear weapons? Nothing else seems to be sacrosanct and yet I am bemused why we will abandon other spending but not this. You are also making arguments from the 80s?

I think Labour will lose in 2020. Difficult to say but that is what I think. I can imagine being here in 2025 reading you and Hugo telling us thathe battles have been lost and we should just continue promising to be a bit nicer than the Tories. U.S. Here we come!

I must say though that I don't believe you are really like what your post suggest. Your hatred of Corbyn just seems to make you automatically oppose anything that looks like a move to the left. Doesn't say much for the other candidates that this is the case

[citizenJA]

@howsillyofme1
Excellent post, thank you.
Labour probably won't lose.
xx
cJA

[Tubby Isaacs]

Just following on from last night

Corbyn is a 1981 Bennite?

Hi, just for clarity- the Bennite comparison was intended just in one sense- that Corbyn sees the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members.
The Tories keep their members at a distance- one aide of Cameron's reputedly called them "swivel eyed loons". The SNP have risen by doing the same- Salmond basically made it up as he went along. Farage increasingly had to put distance between himself and his members.

Maybe you can run the DUP like Corbyn says. You can't run anyone bigger.

[citizenJA]

Just following on from last night

Corbyn is a 1981 Bennite?

Hi, just for clarity- the Bennite comparison was intended just in one sense- that Corbyn sees the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members.
The Tories keep their members at a distance- one aide of Cameron's reputedly called them "swivel eyed loons". The SNP have risen by doing the same- Salmond basically made it up as he went along. Farage increasingly had to put distance between himself and his members.

Maybe you can run the DUP like Corbyn says. You can't run anyone bigger.

That's unfair, Corbyn doesn't "see the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members".
He's been a Labour party MP for decades, has and will continue to work with his colleagues and others.

[AngryAsWell]

Just following on from last night

Corbyn is a 1981 Bennite?

Hi, just for clarity- the Bennite comparison was intended just in one sense- that Corbyn sees the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members.
The Tories keep their members at a distance- one aide of Cameron's reputedly called them "swivel eyed loons". The SNP have risen by doing the same- Salmond basically made it up as he went along. Farage increasingly had to put distance between himself and his members.

Maybe you can run the DUP like Corbyn says. You can't run anyone bigger.

That's unfair, Corbyn doesn't "see the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members".
He's been a Labour party MP for decades, has and will continue to work with his colleagues and others.

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

On rail, I agree with a fair bit Hugo says. The franchising system is effective in producing income for the Treasury. The amount that the new Stagecoach-Virgin are contracted to pay the Treasury is far more than East Coast returned to the Treasury. Caroline Lucas, principled politician as she's supposed to be, mysteriously failed to mention that train companies pay for their franchises in one of her stirring articles in the Guardian, I recall.

Like Hugo, I think getting investment into rail is at least as important as keeping fares affordably low. But public investment needs maintaining at the current level at least. Railways, unless you have a tiny network of intercity and London commuter lines, are never going to be self-financing. We have people priced off the railway already, who could probably fill a few off-peak empty seats, at the very least. We don't need to go further that way.

If the state could be relied upon to pay more investment consistently, then I'd happily have the state regulated lots of the fares down. But investment always gets cut. For all its faults, the current system is producing lots of money for investment.

It's easy in opposition to say that fares should be lower and lines should be reopened- Norman Baker was a classic of that, talking up the possibility of a new railcard nationwide. I imagine that on his first day in the DfT someone explained to him that this would reduce the value of franchises, and asked him where the money for investment he wanted was going to come from. He dropped it quietly.

But there are bits where Corbyn's instincts of nationalizing are right- I don't really understand why there's a profit-making rolling stock company. It's a weird legacy of privatization that wasn't undone, and one of its most scandalous aspects (a bunch of BR managers who were in the know got it very cheap). Network Rail clearly has problems but putting rolling stock in with track would, to me, make sense.

I wouldn't rule out renationalizing franchises in the longer term. But it's not a priority for me.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Hugo. If you think rail fares are too low we are obviously living in a different country. We have been priced off the railway. For anyone on a low or median income they are too expensive. And, as several articles have recently reported, bus services are disappearing faster than they run.

The system is broken, subsidies are huge, rail fares at peak times are stupid. I doubt that nationalising stuff is going to help, might save 10-15%.

However if you shut down the rail network the country would just stop. Huge numbers of high skilled commuters are travelling long distance into London every day, I go at least once a week and I don't even work there.

The subsidy is basically investment. It's not in itself a sign of a broken system. One reason BR, in its late period, was very efficient (and it certainly was) was that the Major government had starved it of investment- their record on public investment generally was appalling.

The figure bandied about for how much of fare income goes back to the taxpayer is 97%. That's rather dubious- based on an old study by the train companies. New one of those needs doing.

[Tubby Isaacs]

@SpinningHigo

I went from Udine to Rome via Venezia Mestre last November - the second leg was 1st class. Cost €128 - about £115. The difference between standard and first class is about €27.

Just checked a comparable journey London - Glasgow today. Cheapest standard class is £132.80. First class is £239

So you're looking at £82 against £132 standard, and £115 against £232 first class.

Rail fares in this country are not cheap - far from it.

Lucky you, subsidised by Italian taxpayers. As I say, same thing has happened to me across Europe both this summer and last. Nice to have someone else pay for me.

Also, you can do better than that Glasgow price, I just had a look on trainline.com, and if you book in advance you can get it for around £92 (£46 each way). That is part of how ticket pricing in the UK is done on an 'easyjet' commercial basis: and often isn't on continental Europe. Trying to pay on the day of travel, and a Friday, is more expensive.

Yep, the "Easyjet" comparison is right. It's AFIK becoming more popular with rail internationally, though governments are never going to go as far as private companies do.

It's effective in raising money for the Treasury, which is the priority at the moment, and will continue to be. But it's also ironic that, with so many trains running that you don't even have to look at a timetable, you have to go to the trouble of booking in advance.

[citizenJA]

Hi, just for clarity- the Bennite comparison was intended just in one sense- that Corbyn sees the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members.
The Tories keep their members at a distance- one aide of Cameron's reputedly called them "swivel eyed loons". The SNP have risen by doing the same- Salmond basically made it up as he went along. Farage increasingly had to put distance between himself and his members.

Maybe you can run the DUP like Corbyn says. You can't run anyone bigger.

That's unfair, Corbyn doesn't "see the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members".
He's been a Labour party MP for decades, has and will continue to work with his colleagues and others.

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

[ohsocynical]

Browsing Refitman's thread on where we are from and found this from 2014 posted by Everybody Knows

Aneurin Bevan said in 1948 -

"That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were. "

And people are saying Corbyn is taking us back to 1980? We are having need to start again.

[ohsocynical]

That's unfair, Corbyn doesn't "see the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members".
He's been a Labour party MP for decades, has and will continue to work with his colleagues and others.

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

To me Corbyn rebelling means he sticks to his guns and he doesn't have anything too seedy the Whips can use against him.

I find it rather refreshing after the bunch of shit's we call MPs have wreaked havoc with the country for so long, and mainly for their own benefit.

[AngryAsWell]

That's unfair, Corbyn doesn't "see the membership as all wise, and problems as coming from MPs and the leadership ignoring members".
He's been a Labour party MP for decades, has and will continue to work with his colleagues and others.

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

I can't see how someone so at odds with the party that he votes against it so many time can have a working relationship with many other MP's. Indeed I have read some Labour MP's have never even met him because (for good or bad) he does not mix with others in parliament (tea rooms, coffee shops or bars).
Different points of view give no offence to me, no need to apologise.

[ohsocynical]

I've voted for the rebel.

For the stick to stir up the nasty sediment at the bottom.

For some much needed fresh air....

[SpinningHugo]

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

I can't see how someone so at odds with the party that he votes against it so many time can have a working relationship with many other MP's. Indeed I have read some Labour MP's have never even met him because (for good or bad) he does not mix with others in parliament (tea rooms, coffee shops or bars).
Different points of view give no offence to me, no need to apologise.

He hasn't attended PLP meetings. If he had, Labour MPs would have met him.

Basically because he hasn't seen himself as part of it.

[citizenJA]

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

I can't see how someone so at odds with the party that he votes against it so many time can have a working relationship with many other MP's. Indeed I have read some Labour MP's have never even met him because (for good or bad) he does not mix with others in parliament (tea rooms, coffee shops or bars).
Different points of view give no offence to me, no need to apologise.

He hasn't attended PLP meetings. If he had, Labour MPs would have met him.

Basically because he hasn't seen himself as part of it.

How do you know?

[RogerOThornhill]

I've voted for the rebel.

For the stick to stir up the nasty sediment at the bottom.

For some much needed fresh air....

"He's a rebel and he'll never be any good
He's a rebel 'cause he never ever does what he should..."

[SpinningHugo]

I can't see how someone so at odds with the party that he votes against it so many time can have a working relationship with many other MP's. Indeed I have read some Labour MP's have never even met him because (for good or bad) he does not mix with others in parliament (tea rooms, coffee shops or bars).
Different points of view give no offence to me, no need to apologise.

He hasn't attended PLP meetings. If he had, Labour MPs would have met him.

Basically because he hasn't seen himself as part of it.

How do you know?

MPs have said so on twitter (eg Lucy Powell).

not Corbyn supporters of course, and so they might be lying.

[ohsocynical]

I've voted for the rebel.

For the stick to stir up the nasty sediment at the bottom.

For some much needed fresh air....

"He's a rebel and he'll never be any good
He's a rebel 'cause he never ever does what he should..."

I've been polite and well behaved all my life, gone with the flow and all that crap, and you know what. I don't plan to die that way...
There are very few advantages to old age, but being able to see more clearly the way it really is, and suddenly not worrying about what people might think, is one of them.

[citizenJA]

Except when voting against Labour
"Corbyn has been Labour’s most rebellious MP, voting against his party more than 500 times. That would make it practically impossible for him to demand loyalty from the parliamentary Labour party, especially since fewer than the 36 who nominated him actually support him, with Margaret Beckett even describing herself as a moron for lending him her votes. Corbyn would be a contemptible hypocrite if he were to try to crack the whip that he himself so gleefully defied."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... abour-whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know about how often Corbyn has rebelled.
His voting record isn't an indication of interpersonal relationships with other MPs, is it?
All I was disagreeing with was the assertion Corbyn thinks members are all wise and problems come from MPs and Labour leadership ignoring members.
I'm voting for Burnham, Cooper, Corbyn and Kendall, in that order.
Apologies if I've offended.

I can't see how someone so at odds with the party that he votes against it so many time can have a working relationship with many other MP's. Indeed I have read some Labour MP's have never even met him because (for good or bad) he does not mix with others in parliament (tea rooms, coffee shops or bars).
Different points of view give no offence to me, no need to apologise.

I've gone to the TheyWorkForYou website to see Corbyn's voting record.

Jeremy Corbyn’s voting in Parliament
Jeremy Corbyn is a Labour MP, and so on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Labour MPs.
However, Jeremy Corbyn sometimes differs from their party colleagues, such as:

• http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/ ... orth#votes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's consistently voted against very specific items.
It's not accurate to say Corbyn is 'so at odds with the party'.
He's worked for and within the Labour party for decades.
That record speaks for his successfully remaining a Labour MP, supporting other Labour MPs and Labour membership while disagreeing with some Labour policies he's voted against.

[ohsocynical]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

[HindleA]

She Is Gone

You can shed tears that she is gone
or you can smile because she has lived


You can close your eyes and pray that she will come back
or you can open your eyes and see all she has left

Your hear can be empty because you can't see her
or you can be full of the love you shared

You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday
or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday

You can remember her and only that she has gone
or you can cherish her memory and let it live on.

You can cry and close your mind
be empty and turn your back.

or you can do what she would want
smile,open your eyes,love and go on.


I "broke"briefly in the Rolls following the coffin through the Derbyshire countryside,the rest of the day was
Joyful respectful celebration of her life.I hope I didn't let her down

[citizenJA]

She Is Gone

You can shed tears that she is gone
or you can smile because she has lived


You can close your eyes and pray that she will come back
or you can open your eyes and see all she has left

Your hear can be empty because you can't see her
or you can be full of the love you shared

You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday
or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday

You can remember her and only that she has gone
or you can cherish her memory and let it live on.

You can cry and close your mind
be empty and turn your back.

or you can do what she would want
smile,open your eyes,love and go on.


I "broke"briefly in the Rolls following the coffin through the Derbyshire countryside,the rest of the day was
Joyful respectful celebration of her life.I hope I didn't let her down

No one so loving as you can let your mother down.
Please accept my gratitude for sharing this with me.
xx
cJA

[Tubby Isaacs]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

[HindleA]

Better half cja

Though did remind me she once was mistaken for my mum,given she was younger than me,she wasn't best amused.

[Tubby Isaacs]

How I see Corbyn's leadership going-

1) We're going to do all this stuff. We're paying for it by cutting back on tax avoidance, corporate welfare and people's QE
2) Are you sure about this?
3) Um, OK, I've overcooked this.
4) So what we doing?
5) Um, big middle class tax rises?
6) Oh shit.

[yahyah]

Glad to hear things went well Adrian. X
Can't have been easy.

[howsillyofme1]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

Yep them too! Blair and Queenie included

Assad was and is just another slimy little dictator - no-one in the West sucks up to him now though. We could learn and stop sucking up to anymore like him. Let us start with Saudi, Bahrain, Kazakstan shall we?

[howsillyofme1]

She Is Gone

You can shed tears that she is gone
or you can smile because she has lived


You can close your eyes and pray that she will come back
or you can open your eyes and see all she has left

Your hear can be empty because you can't see her
or you can be full of the love you shared

You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday
or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday

You can remember her and only that she has gone
or you can cherish her memory and let it live on.

You can cry and close your mind
be empty and turn your back.

or you can do what she would want
smile,open your eyes,love and go on.


I "broke"briefly in the Rolls following the coffin through the Derbyshire countryside,the rest of the day was
Joyful respectful celebration of her life.I hope I didn't let her down

Sending hugs, best wishes and my sincerest condolences on this day.

[Tubby Isaacs]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

Yep them too! Blair and Queenie included

Assad was and is just another slimy little dictator - no-one in the West sucks up to him now though. We could learn and stop sucking up to anymore like him. Let us start with Saudi, Bahrain, Kazakstan shall we?

I was referring to Galloway.

[AngryAsWell]

She Is Gone

You can shed tears that she is gone
or you can smile because she has lived


You can close your eyes and pray that she will come back
or you can open your eyes and see all she has left

Your hear can be empty because you can't see her
or you can be full of the love you shared

You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday
or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday

You can remember her and only that she has gone
or you can cherish her memory and let it live on.

You can cry and close your mind
be empty and turn your back.

or you can do what she would want
smile,open your eyes,love and go on.


I "broke"briefly in the Rolls following the coffin through the Derbyshire countryside,the rest of the day was
Joyful respectful celebration of her life.I hope I didn't let her down

That is lovely, I'm sure you did not let here down.
Remember to re-read it when you feel low xxxx

[howsillyofme1]

How I see Corbyn's leadership going-

1) We're going to do all this stuff. We're paying for it by cutting back on tax avoidance, corporate welfare and people's QE
2) Are you sure about this?
3) Um, OK, I've overcooked this.
4) So what we doing?
5) Um, big middle class tax rises?
6) Oh shit.

Perhaps....but doesn't this happen to any election though....how many promises are actually kept.

Anyway, I am not the biggest Corbyn fan but my take on it is - if he is so bad why are we all so deeply unimpressed with his opposition?

There is no left wing Labour candidate around who can make us want to vote for them - all we have are people tainted by the smell of being only too happy to accommodate Tory thinking.....

What happened to the left....did they all leave in the period following 2003? Why have we been left with such a godawful set of MPs? Miliband excluded of course but then he was hated by most of them as well if the amount of briefing against him is to be believed

[howsillyofme1]

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

Yep them too! Blair and Queenie included

Assad was and is just another slimy little dictator - no-one in the West sucks up to him now though. We could learn and stop sucking up to anymore like him. Let us start with Saudi, Bahrain, Kazakstan shall we?

I was referring to Galloway.

Galloway is included....but so are many others

My point stands

[rebeccariots2]

Jamie Ross ‏@JamieRoss7 31m31 minutes ago
The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror".

Good on them.

[yahyah]

@ Tubby -

I really think you are underestimating him, and the approach he will take.

He looks as if he will take a different approach to the way new policies are made, as well as working towards different types of new policies.
He knows the history of Europe, he knows our history, economic & social, he believes in discussion.

He will be collaborative.

The economy is likely to hit some big problems when the Tories go full throttle, those sales figures today are a sign of what's to come. People may be ready for a change then, and more open to see the truth of what austerity really does.

He's lived through a lot, seen it first hand, not learnt it in a unversity PPE class.

Give him a chance....then complain if it goes the way you predict.

[ohsocynical]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

Yes. And the arms dealers. Lots and lots of dirty hands...

[yahyah]

Also, anectodal I know, but chatted to a few people today - we do sometimes get away from the fields of sheep and engage in human contact !

A friend is delighted to think Corbyn may be elected and would vote Labour again.
She's felt homeless politically since Iraq. She says her social network pals, all similar ages to us late 50's, feel the same.

Woman on the till in the supermarket made a comment about sales in the town, and I said 'it'll get worse with this government' and she replied 'too right, but that Corbyn could give them a fight, if only they'll let him'.

The former is middle class, very good income and her friends similar, obviously the lady on the till probably likely to be on a much lower income. But feedback from both is that Corbyn is seen as straight, and different and a breath of fresh air.

[ohsocynical]

@ Tubby -

I really think you are underestimating him, and the approach he will take.

He looks as if he will take a different approach to the way new policies are made, as well as working towards different types of new policies.
He knows the history of Europe, he knows our history, economic & social, he believes in discussion.

He will be collaborative.

The economy is likely to hit some big problems when the Tories go full throttle, those sales figures today are a sign of what's to come. People may be ready for a change then, and more open to see the truth of what austerity really does.

He's lived through a lot, seen it first hand, not learnt it in a unversity PPE class.

Give him a chance....then complain if it goes the way you predict.

Also read a piece in one of the papers today about interest only mortgages. Think I read something like a million? people have them and are going to be in deep do-do if/when interest rates go up.

[AngryAsWell]

How I see Corbyn's leadership going-

1) We're going to do all this stuff. We're paying for it by cutting back on tax avoidance, corporate welfare and people's QE
2) Are you sure about this?
3) Um, OK, I've overcooked this.
4) So what we doing?
5) Um, big middle class tax rises?
6) Oh shit.

Perhaps....but doesn't this happen to any election though....how many promises are actually kept.

Anyway, I am not the biggest Corbyn fan but my take on it is - if he is so bad why are we all so deeply unimpressed with his opposition?

There is no left wing Labour candidate around who can make us want to vote for them - all we have are people tainted by the smell of being only too happy to accommodate Tory thinking.....

What happened to the left....did they all leave in the period following 2003? Why have we been left with such a godawful set of MPs? Miliband excluded of course but then he was hated by most of them as well if the amount of briefing against him is to be believed

I hate these sweeping statements.
Who are you talking about?
Maria Eagle, Gloria De Piero, Michael Dugher, Angela Eagle, Sadiq Khan, Jo Cox, Chi Onwurah, Dan Jarvis, Lisa Nandy, Sarah Champion, Chris Bryant ? or perhaps pick any one from here

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/filter/ ... in-content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are some wonderful Labour people who you have just swept away as "godawful" without thought or examination of who they are or what they do day-to-day for their constituents.
A timely reminder :
What Labour achieved, lest we forget

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/ ... we-forget/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Achieved, I should add, by many of the "godawful" people you so seem to despise.

[HindleA]

People will go with what they know.The "tipping point" is at best imaginery at worse only solidifies such a view.Inconvenient hitherto historical precedents gainsay the seeing of the light and sway to the way we would prefer;nothing is impossible of course in such a volte force of opinion,but IMHO less chance under Corbyn than a more conciliatory compromising but more acceptable to current electorate view approach.

[rebeccariots2]

This refugee crisis is too big for Europe to handle - its institutions are broken
Paul Mason
The EU needs a new asylum system based on reality. But without an influx of migrants, it faces a future of economic stagnation

Really good piece.

... Consent for inward economic migration is fragile and falling – as evidenced by the sudden rush by politicians and tabloids to reclassify the Syrian exodus as a special case. Even if populist resistance to migration stops short of fascism, and even if anti-migration parties are disempowered by the electoral system, their existence highlights a failing consensus. And that is, in turn, founded on economic failure. The Eurozone has produced an arc of stagnation and discontent along its southern border. There is mass unemployment in the very countries that have become the first port of call for migrants and refugees.

So the challenge for Europe is clear. To absorb the refugees we are going to need a new set of rules about where they’re processed; new arrangements for internal travel in Europe. Plus a new social consensus about who can come, who can’t and where they are going to live and work. And, ultimately, a massive economic stimulus.

If the EU cannot do all this, its constituent nations will begin to do so separately. And so, in the space of a summer, the refugee crisis crashes into the Euro crisis, and the one consistent problem is failure of leadership, anticipation and vision.

[RogerOThornhill]

Also read a piece in one of the papers today about interest only mortgages. Think I read something like a million? people have them and are going to be in deep do-do if/when interest rates go up.

I'd assumed long ago that this was why interest rates hadn't risen before - wait for wages to rise before putting them back up to a 'normal' level.

The last recession was an odd one in that it was while we had relatively low inflation and low interest rates - house repossessions and mortgage defaults were nowhere near what they had been in the early 90s.

[yahyah]

& thanks OhSo, a couple of very good posts and links in the last few days.
The one about prices of food rising - what anyone who shops knows but official figure hide - and today about retail figures.

My husband made a drink earlier and opened a pack of his favourite wrapped chocolate biscuits.
The pack has seven bars in it, in the past it was always eight. Same price charged so that's a 12.5% increase. Aubergines last week were sold as a bargain at 70pence, but they were two thirds of the usual size, that would probably get into the official figures as a price drop.

[howsillyofme1]

How I see Corbyn's leadership going-

1) We're going to do all this stuff. We're paying for it by cutting back on tax avoidance, corporate welfare and people's QE
2) Are you sure about this?
3) Um, OK, I've overcooked this.
4) So what we doing?
5) Um, big middle class tax rises?
6) Oh shit.

Perhaps....but doesn't this happen to any election though....how many promises are actually kept.

Anyway, I am not the biggest Corbyn fan but my take on it is - if he is so bad why are we all so deeply unimpressed with his opposition?

There is no left wing Labour candidate around who can make us want to vote for them - all we have are people tainted by the smell of being only too happy to accommodate Tory thinking.....

What happened to the left....did they all leave in the period following 2003? Why have we been left with such a godawful set of MPs? Miliband excluded of course but then he was hated by most of them as well if the amount of briefing against him is to be believed

I hate these sweeping statements.
Who are you talking about?
Maria Eagle, Gloria De Piero, Michael Dugher, Angela Eagle, Sadiq Khan, Jo Cox, Chi Onwurah, Dan Jarvis, Lisa Nandy, Sarah Champion, Chris Bryant ? or perhaps pick any one from here

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/filter/ ... in-content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are some wonderful Labour people who you have just swept away as "godawful" without thought or examination of who they are or what they do day-today for their constituents.
A timely reminder :
What Labour achieved, lest we forget

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/ ... we-forget/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Achieved, I should add, by many of the "godawful" people you so seem to despise.

Well we have had to put up with so many sweeping statements by those on the right I thought I would join in...

Labour did some great things in history, even some in the Blair years

but it is not the left that despises the legacy (apart from Iraq and deregulation) but those on the right of the party who agree that 'Labour caused the rising by spending to much' and who so much love big business and 'aspiration'

The MPs you mentioned are, you rightly point out, not godawful, but neither is Corbyn

I wish some of them would have stood for the leadership....why didn't they? Was it because the rest of the PLP didn't want to give them their nominations? The deputy leader field is actually much more impressive than the leadership one.

[ohsocynical]

Looking at Trump heading the republican nomination race, one can only conclude he's saying what many Americans think but haven't quite liked to say....

Support is only there for a candidate if he/she is saying what people believe and want to hear.

Can we at least admit the same is happening with Corbyn?

[yahyah]

Just had a timed out error thingy for the site, and like PF had a squirrel message earlier.

[HindleA]

Gets nervous about mortgage,not interest only thankfully,currently on track to be paid off in a few years.Interest tied to B of E +1% =1.5% for over six years now,it was 6.79% at the beginning.

[HindleA]

Brown took action on that Roger,not given enough credit for.

[rebeccariots2]

Just had a timed out error thingy for the site, and like PF had a squirrel message earlier.

I had a site crash / locked out experience with FTN earlier today. Good to know I'm not alone. I know it's not good really ... but knowing others are also having problems is somehow reassuring.

[ohsocynical]

George Galloway ‏@georgegalloway Sep 2

All those who plunged Syria into the nightmare of civil war, foreign invasion, terrorism and slaughter killed that baby on the beach today.


It's George Galloway but. Yep!!!!

How about people who sucked up to Assad?

Yes. And the arms dealers. Lots and lots of dirty hands...

Oh and I know you were being sly there Tubby. Once again, I might be under educated but I'm not stupid.

Anyone who has facilitated violence has blood on their hands.

[RogerOThornhill]

Just out of interest, here's the data on mortgages in arrears and repossessions - I've highlighted the two recessionary periods. The mortgages in arrears numbers are pretty interesting too...