Wednesday 14th October 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:00 pm

response to right wing troll deleted.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:02 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Doubtless the problem was blamed on people not getting behind the leader.
It's that kind of snide comeback that makes me wonder if I want to be here.

And as I recall, people didn't get behind Gillard. And wasn't there a load of infighting that more or less left an open goal to Tony Abbott?

Do you really think media strategy is Corbyn's biggest problem? Or even a particularly significant one?

I think those last questions are good ones - it seems to be a handle to hold on to for critics but I have seen no clear suggestion what this strategy would look like and I have clearly expressed my doubts as to how effective it would be

The establishment cannot allow Corbyn to be PM - he is an avowed atheistic republican. He has eschewed the use of nuclear weapons both in first strike and as retaliation, he is a strong advocate of human rights - and I mean a proper one not like the liars Gove and Cameron. He holds the press in contempt. He believes in reducing inequality. He is anti-colonialist. he believes in community politics. he believes in the unions.He believes in a united Ireland

He is in essence a true opponent of the current Establishment. The kind of person who would have been at home in the days of Home Rule for Ireland, votes for women, universal franchise and the rights of workers

There was a time when someone with his views was an anachronism - the post war consensus suggested that the battles had been won. Unfortunately, the poor judgement of some in the Labour movement coupled to the rise of market based economics under Reagan and Thatcher has removed this consensus and, in my view, we have passed the moment of peak democracy. The number of people voting is in a massive decline and no UK Government in has any legitimacy

The establishment will throw everything at him, and no media strategy will help that....except for one that can mobilise the disenfranchised and encourage them to vote and campaign for a just society. If he is overthrown or thwarted then the problems and pressure will continue to build and who knows what that will lead to.

We are all pretty much in agreement here that the Tories are destroying the structure and fabric of our society......that will have consequences

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:04 pm

Response to right wing troll deleted.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:06 pm

Response to right wing stalker troll deleted.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:06 pm

Ahem. Don't feed.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:07 pm

yahyah wrote:I don't think Campbell would come back as he seems to have a dislike of Abbott and McDonnell if not others.

Chief Labour anti-Corbyn stirrer, MP Mike Gapes, retweeted one of Campbell's critical tweets the other day.

I tend to agree - Campbell is a complex character - one who it is difficult not to like and despise in equal measure (that is what is so brilliant about the Malcolm Tucker character as well)

I do not mind people like him criticising - I know he is Labour through and through. He hasn't made a habit of being overcritical either

He does not get on at all with McDonnell though....think he would just ignore Abbott - everyone else does.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:07 pm

Sorry Dan.

I'll delete my responses while the smell of sulphur dissipates.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:09 pm

yahyah wrote:Sorry Dan.

I'll delete my responses while the smell of sulphur dissipates.

Naughty yahyah

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:11 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Sorry Dan.

I'll delete my responses while the smell of sulphur dissipates.

Naughty yahyah

Indeed. As punishment, 100

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:24 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Doubtless the problem was blamed on people not getting behind the leader.
It's that kind of snide comeback that makes me wonder if I want to be here.

And as I recall, people didn't get behind Gillard. And wasn't there a load of infighting that more or less left an open goal to Tony Abbott?

Do you really think media strategy is Corbyn's biggest problem? Or even a particularly significant one?

It was a bit sharp.

In response to your (fair play) constructive questions, I'm not sure I've got much to add to what I said before.

Probably time I took a break anyway

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Doubtless the problem was blamed on people not getting behind the leader.
It's that kind of snide comeback that makes me wonder if I want to be here.

And as I recall, people didn't get behind Gillard. And wasn't there a load of infighting that more or less left an open goal to Tony Abbott?

Do you really think media strategy is Corbyn's biggest problem? Or even a particularly significant one?
It was a bit sharp.

In response to your (fair play) constructive questions, I'm not sure I've got much to add to what I said before.

Probably time I took a break anyway

Come on guys and gals - less of this break taking - you lot are worse than Cameron!

Take 5 mins to cool down and perhaps we should all think a little bit more about what we post and how it could come across. In general though the fast majority of the discussions are civil and measured

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:30 pm

Or else one day it'll just be our right wing stalker left.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:37 pm

& I'd miss you all.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:45 pm

It's not healthy that we all sing from the same hymn sheet is it ? In a politics forum, which by it's very nature invokes passion alongside different ideas.

There has to be a difference of opinion even if we are all on the same side. That's real life, mp's of the same party often fall out from time to time, or don't talk to each other like Healey/Benn or Heath/Thatcher.

I have a friend (who's Independent) who serves on Notts County Council as a rep for a large area of Mansfield, he needs a crash helmet at some meetings for protection from the 'heated debates' among the members from the same parties.Ditto another colleague on a local parish council.

There are married couples who stay married despite being supporters of opposing parties.

Get stuck in I say, as long as we don't get to lower the tone with personal insults, apologies for the well worn cliche' but we ain't North Korea.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 4:54 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:It's not healthy that we all sing from the same hymn sheet is it ? In a politics forum, which by it's very nature invokes passion alongside different ideas.

There has to be a difference of opinion even if we are all on the same side. That's real life, mp's of the same party often fall out from time to time, or don't talk to each other like Healey/Benn or Heath/Thatcher.

I have a friend (who's Independent) who serves on Notts County Council as a rep for a large area of Mansfield, he needs a crash helmet at some meetings for protection from the 'heated debates' among the members from the same parties.Ditto another colleague on a local parish council.

There are married couples who stay married despite being supporters of opposing parties.

Get stuck in I say, as long as we don't get to lower the tone with personal insults, apologies for the well worn cliche' but we ain't North Korea.

Hear! Hear!

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:09 pm

Possibly one for the ladies here(dare I even write such a thing?????)
Cold,grey day.Fed up,car in the garage awaiting new clutch and ?flyplate,cost to be approx £1100.00,so,I lit the woodburner and thought,hm,what shall I do?
So I melted down the remains of 3 scented candles,you know,the last bit at the bottom of the jar,rose ,beeswax and elderflower champagne,mixed them up and put them in a glass jar with a new wick.
Voila,a new candle.
Beats worrying about money.Off to find some more jars now as I have some mulled wine,cinnamon and spiced pear candles to use up.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:10 pm

Greetings FTNers - I am slowly re-entering daily life and politics by media after another intensive session of living the politics of cruelty against wildlife. Our last session as the badger cull in Gloucestershire is finally over for this year - it ended this morning. More surreal experiences as this time we encountered pairs of policemen and women out walking the footpaths in the hours of darkness - just like the wounded badger patrols. Found ourselves having very genial chats with them about badger ecology and countryside lore and dogs and all sorts.

On the last night of the (officially licensed) cull we were at a badger sett that has been repeatedly targeted by shooters with many people including ourselves trying to thwart their efforts. We did what we usually aren't able to do - we sat completely still and quiet - no lights, no talking - and watched and listened. We were rewarded by seeing with our night eyes - and then with the help of technology - badgers emerging from the sett and going about their foraging in the surrounding field and hedgerows. Magical and very uplifting as we've been looking after this sett along with others for some time with none of us having actually seen a badger there. On our way home today we passed by again to check a couple of things and both felt quite weepy as we left behind these beautiful creatures and their natural home. 'May you live long and prosper' is the message we send to them with hope and fear.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:15 pm

I was just thinking of you RR, as you hadn't been around, suspected you were out in the field helping our badger friends.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:18 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: It's that kind of snide comeback that makes me wonder if I want to be here.

And as I recall, people didn't get behind Gillard. And wasn't there a load of infighting that more or less left an open goal to Tony Abbott?

Do you really think media strategy is Corbyn's biggest problem? Or even a particularly significant one?
It was a bit sharp.

In response to your (fair play) constructive questions, I'm not sure I've got much to add to what I said before.

Probably time I took a break anyway
Please don't. I see why you made the point.

There must be a way we can exist with a variety of views and discuss them calmly. Myself very much included. And I think we do genuine discussion here - I've found that on numerous occasions I change my view of something because of evidence or argument presented here - not least with your knowledge of the railways.

I couldn't resist a crafty look. Consider my break over.

Very nice of you to say that. I've learned lots from you too, especially about Health. I was interested in what you said about the way the NHS goes in cycles with "crises" (for want of a better word) and it being hard to deal with. It tallied with what my friend the consultant said years and years ago.

Re rail, I was a bit sceptical with some of Corbyn's soundbites, in terms of overpromising (on investment and fares), but he can definitely improve the fragmentation. I liked the way that he picked out the rolling stock companies first. He knows more about it than I first allowed.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:19 pm

Rebecca wrote:Possibly one for the ladies here(dare I even write such a thing?????)
Cold,grey day.Fed up,car in the garage awaiting new clutch and ?flyplate,cost to be approx £1100.00,so,I lit the woodburner and thought,hm,what shall I do?
So I melted down the remains of 3 scented candles,you know,the last bit at the bottom of the jar,rose ,beeswax and elderflower champagne,mixed them up and put them in a glass jar with a new wick.
Voila,a new candle.
Beats worrying about money.Off to find some more jars now as I have some mulled wine,cinnamon and spiced pear candles to use up.

Careful there Rebecca - don't come over all Kirstie Allsop on us!

(But hey - almost anything you can do to cheer yourself up from a clutch bill like that is more than OK.)

Post by **refitman** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:19 pm

So, the Labour position on the vote tonight is against. Why are Chris Evans, Chris Leslie, Liz Kendall and Jamie Reed abstaining?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:22 pm

Glad you're back Tubby.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:23 pm

refitman wrote:So, the Labour position on the vote tonight is against. Why are Chris Evans, Chris Leslie, Liz Kendall and Jamie Reed abstaining?

I really have no idea and given that two of the new economics panel of experts have come out against it, you would have hoped that maybe they'd reconsider.

It's also a bit odd saying now that they'll vote against even though they've yet to hear the argument against the bill from McDonnell.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:23 pm

yahyah wrote:Laura KuenssbergVerified account ‏@bbclaurak 17m17 minutes ago
Boss of Fire Brigade Union, Matt Wrack says Lab MPs who don't like Corbyn should "wind your neck in and shut up" - recipe for harmony...

She's worried she won't have anything to smirk about if Labour present a unified front.

The full quote:

I don’t want to pry into the business of the parliamentary Labour party too much, but people may have seen the press reports of what went on in the Parliamentary Labour party this week and the attacks that were made on the Corbyn leadership.

On behalf of the executive council, and I hope on behalf of everyone, I would say to those people who are trying to put the knife into Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell they need to wind their necks in and shut up and abide by the democratic decision of Labour party members, affiliated trade unionists and supporters and also in non-affiliated trade unions like us, like PCS, like the RMT. John and Jeremy have stood by those unions through thick and thin.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:37 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:It's not healthy that we all sing from the same hymn sheet is it ? . . .

Could we do 'interesting' harmonies and arrangements of the hymns, though? A bit of enharmonic here, chuck in an unexpected flat 5, add bagpipe, cowbell, and gamelan orchestra to Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - or is that a carol? Launch into simultaneous US & UK versions of All Things Bright and Beautiful...

We're singing from the same hymn book, just not necessarily from the same pages...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:39 pm

For what it's worth.

We've not listened to any radio - seen any tv, internet or print - news or comment for 2 1/2 days. On the way home we listened to WATO. Pleasantly surprised by what seemed like relatively balanced interviewing and reporting by Kearney and co. Yes, really. The report on PMQs put Corbyn in good stead - and made Cameron and some of his MPs sound blustery and rude. There seems to be a grudging acceptance by some in the media that Corbyn could actually be changing the way things are done and the reporting may actually be starting to recognise and accommodate that different approach. (I heard Kearney putting the reverse side of the argument to Tory spokespeople - and stating the Labour case / argument more clearly and accurately than I've noticed her attempt before). The segments on tax credits and housing with Brandon Lewis for the Tories and John Healey for Labour were very interesting. Healey was good - able to counter Lewis's pre scripted guff about having to look at the big picture and see it 'in the round' of increases in tax allowances and reduced food prices etc meaning people will be generally better off (yes, he really did rely on falling food and fuel prices to justify the cuts to tax credits). Both Kearney and Healey reiterated the IFS findings that many working people will be worse off even with the supposed mitigating factors of rise in minimum wage etc. I think Corbyn's question from Kelly - who already earns £7.20 an hour and works 40.5 hours a week - was a very good choice. Really exposed the Tory lies about this policy. A question like that cuts through the guff and brings real people directly into the HoC and the MSM debate.

It may be very slight - it will be very slow - that's for sure. But we might just see the media having to start to deal with the big substance issues because of the way Corbyn and others in the Labour shadow cabinet frame the arguments and their approach - rather than an endless preoccupation with the minutiae of personalities, splits, how to outmanoevre, infighting, dress codes and so on.

Of course - this may just be what a few days away from the politics of the media does for you.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:40 pm

Rebecca wrote:Possibly one for the ladies here(dare I even write such a thing?????)
Cold,grey day.Fed up,car in the garage awaiting new clutch and ?flyplate,cost to be approx £1100.00,so,I lit the woodburner and thought,hm,what shall I do?
So I melted down the remains of 3 scented candles,you know,the last bit at the bottom of the jar,rose ,beeswax and elderflower champagne,mixed them up and put them in a glass jar with a new wick.
Voila,a new candle.
Beats worrying about money.Off to find some more jars now as I have some mulled wine,cinnamon and spiced pear candles to use up.

Well I'm sorry, Rebecca, I'll just have to come back with one for us blokes then. I've only recently bought new belts and a missing pipe for a Vax that I originally picked up as a refurbished machine from Currys when I was once in, the old Dyson in need of repair at the time. So theere I am using it yesterday when pop. It trips the electric with a flash. Unlike our acting PM I do not call out an electrician from my supplier but decide to examine and hopefully resolve the situation.

After dismantling and getting to the motor I test it out and see that it requires new brushes. I'd have expected them to have at least replaced them when it was refurbished but apparently not. Anyway after largely disassembling the electric motor I still cannot get to the brushes and shall have to root around for some open ended spanners that I do have somewhere or other. Even then shall I be able to get hold of the required brushes anyway, this motor being from China and all.

I have since discovered that I can buy a new replacement for less than the refurbished one cost me in the first place. Whatever happened to the good old days? Having said that, has anybody noticed the price of nuts these day? Yeah the sort that grow on trees.

I feel I can say this here rather than to my lads for example, who would probably ask me what brushes were.

Edit: replaced 'bushes' with 'brushes'... and more than once!

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:46 pm

Rebecca wrote:Possibly one for the ladies here(dare I even write such a thing?????)
Cold,grey day.Fed up,car in the garage awaiting new clutch and ?flyplate,cost to be approx £1100.00,so,I lit the woodburner and thought,hm,what shall I do?
So I melted down the remains of 3 scented candles,you know,the last bit at the bottom of the jar,rose ,beeswax and elderflower champagne,mixed them up and put them in a glass jar with a new wick.
Voila,a new candle.
Beats worrying about money.Off to find some more jars now as I have some mulled wine,cinnamon and spiced pear candles to use up.

Mmmmm

Those scent-combinations sound so much more enticing than the ones the makers seem to come up with, themselves, and your place must smell amazing!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:48 pm

yahyah wrote:Sorry Dan.

I'll delete my responses while the smell of sulphur dissipates.

I thought we'd all agreed not to do that anymore. It's spelled sulfur!

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:48 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Greetings FTNers - I am slowly re-entering daily life and politics by media after another intensive session of living the politics of cruelty against wildlife. Our last session as the badger cull in Gloucestershire is finally over for this year - it ended this morning. More surreal experiences as this time we encountered pairs of policemen and women out walking the footpaths in the hours of darkness - just like the wounded badger patrols. Found ourselves having very genial chats with them about badger ecology and countryside lore and dogs and all sorts.

On the last night of the (officially licensed) cull we were at a badger sett that has been repeatedly targeted by shooters with many people including ourselves trying to thwart their efforts. We did what we usually aren't able to do - we sat completely still and quiet - no lights, no talking - and watched and listened. We were rewarded by seeing with our night eyes - and then with the help of technology - badgers emerging from the sett and going about their foraging in the surrounding field and hedgerows. Magical and very uplifting as we've been looking after this sett along with others for some time with none of us having actually seen a badger there. On our way home today we passed by again to check a couple of things and both felt quite weepy as we left behind these beautiful creatures and their natural home. 'May you live long and prosper' is the message we send to them with hope and fear.

Thank you - and welcome back

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:49 pm

Osborne must be sniggering to himself with 'Labour divided over vote' and the likes of Gapes, Kendall, Leslie etc abstaining.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:Sorry Dan.

I'll delete my responses while the smell of sulphur dissipates.
I thought we'd all agreed not to do that anymore. It's spelled sulfur!

Tell that to Beelzebub

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:58 pm

Talking of Beelzebub - Mam ! I'm 'ere !

[youtube]Kd_56ezMtc0[/youtube]

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:58 pm

There b'ain't much time for this 'ere Debate on the motion on the Charter for Fudge-it Besponsibility. Nearly 6pm, Parliamentary Day due to end at 7.30 including Adjournment Debate - and the CLG Devolution Bill hasn't even got to the Shadow & Government summing-up-bit yet, let alone a vote...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:59 pm

Any news on how Yvette Cooper is leaning ? Will she join Kendall ?
Presume Andy B will vote against.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:16 pm

Oops.

From AS
Plans to extend free childcare could be delayed after government suffers Lords defeat

The government has been defeated in the House of Lords this afternoon over the childcare bill. The Press Association has the details.

The government has suffered a defeat in the Lords over its plan to double the amount of free childcare for parents of three and four-year-olds.

Labour and Liberal Democrat peers voted 222 to 209, majority 13, for the change not to come into force until a full analysis of funding the policy has been carried out.

They backed an amendment to the childcare bill at report stage also demanding a “comprehensive and sustainable funding solution” for childcare places.

Education minister Lord Nash warned the defeat risked delaying the implementation of the policy for working parents.

The bill, which delivers a Tory manifesto commitment, will double free hours from 15 to 30 hours for 38 weeks a year - a total of 1,140 hours of childcare a year.

For Labour, Baroness Jones of Whitchurch said the opposition supported the concept of extending free childcare.

But she told peers: “We want a policy that won’t just grab the headlines. We want a policy that will work.”

Complaining abut a lack of detail in the bill, Lady Jones said: “There are real questions about now these new places are to be funded and what will happen if they aren’t fully funded.”

She said the plan wasn’t viable without a considerable injection of cash and demanded a review of the funding system before the bill became law.

That's one heck of a knockback since this one of the alleged offsets to the cuts in working tax credits.

Oh dear...I remember saying the other week that they hadn't got round to costing it yet.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:16 pm

Faisal IslamVerified account ‏@faisalislam 59m59 minutes ago
One Labour MP minded to abstain just told me would now vote against fiscal charter after PM's appeal for Labour rebels at PMQs

Edited my comment because I can't bloody read !

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:30 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:I was reading in the same rag one of Hodges recent contributions, in which he told us how nice IDS is, thoroughly good chap that one - Dan even had tea with him which made him realise what a pleasant good egg Smiffy is.

I wonder if Glenda ever rebukes him in private, she tore IDS to shreds in the chamber last year she was equally hard in W&P committee .

Hodges writes his tirades against Labour because it earns him money. It pulls in comments which means clicks for the paper.
Who in our right wing press would pay him if he wrote in praise of Labour all the time?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:32 pm

Also has impact in that full conditionality is proposed for parents of 3/4 year old regardless if they are disabled or not.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:41 pm

yahyah wrote:I was just thinking of you RR, as you hadn't been around, suspected you were out in the field helping our badger friends.

Me too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:45 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Greetings FTNers - I am slowly re-entering daily life and politics by media after another intensive session of living the politics of cruelty against wildlife. Our last session as the badger cull in Gloucestershire is finally over for this year - it ended this morning. More surreal experiences as this time we encountered pairs of policemen and women out walking the footpaths in the hours of darkness - just like the wounded badger patrols. Found ourselves having very genial chats with them about badger ecology and countryside lore and dogs and all sorts.

On the last night of the (officially licensed) cull we were at a badger sett that has been repeatedly targeted by shooters with many people including ourselves trying to thwart their efforts. We did what we usually aren't able to do - we sat completely still and quiet - no lights, no talking - and watched and listened. We were rewarded by seeing with our night eyes - and then with the help of technology - badgers emerging from the sett and going about their foraging in the surrounding field and hedgerows. Magical and very uplifting as we've been looking after this sett along with others for some time with none of us having actually seen a badger there. On our way home today we passed by again to check a couple of things and both felt quite weepy as we left behind these beautiful creatures and their natural home. 'May you live long and prosper' is the message we send to them with hope and fear.

And may you and Mr Riots live long and prosper for all that you do...Your post brought a lump up in my throat as I was reading it to Mr Ohso...He said...See, there are good people in this world.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:45 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:It's not healthy that we all sing from the same hymn sheet is it ? . . .
Could we do 'interesting' harmonies and arrangements of the hymns, though? A bit of enharmonic here, chuck in an unexpected flat 5, add bagpipe, cowbell, and gamelan orchestra to Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - or is that a carol? Launch into simultaneous US & UK versions of All Things Bright and Beautiful...

We're singing from the same hymn book, just not necessarily from the same pages...

I love the cowbell.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:51 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
He could ask Campbell to come back - Campbell hates the Tories and we know the media were scared of him - would they be scared of him now though?

If you read Campbell's diaries he was pretty much at the end of his tether by the time Blair stood down and only stayed on as long as he did to be obliging. It was playing on his health. From what he wrote then, I don't think he'd be tempted back under any circumstances....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 6:59 pm

Email from the NHS Party

This Saturday the Junior Doctors will be demonstrating in London and across the country in protest over their contracts, but also to raise awareness about the greater threat to the NHS.

Will you join them at 2pm on Saturday 17 October, marching from Waterloo Place SW1Y (off Pall Mall) to Parliament Square? Or gather together as many people as you can to support their campaign if you have a local event or outside your local hospital if not?

In London there will be speakers in Waterloo Place at 1400hrs, and the march will end in Parliament Square SW1P. Families very welcome and a family zone is provided.

What you can do to help:
Write to your local MP and Jeremy Hunt. Draw attention to this via social media. Let juniors doctors know they are not marching alone and let the government know that the continued attack on our NHS must stop.
Join the march (there are events happening all over the country, or create your own).
There is an appeal for stewards for the London march
Donate to the NHA to help support our fight back against the insidious selling off of our NHS and the continual undermining of staff.
Remember also, junior doctors need to be registered with the BMA by 23/10/15 to be eligible to vote on strike action! You can retweet Dr Clive Peedell on this subject.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:04 pm

Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:06 pm

Voting now in progress on the Labour amendment declining to give a second reading to the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill. Result expected at 7.15pm. Time runneth swiftly outwards...
Do they just declare they're carrying on if the day's business has not all been completed? I cannae mind on...

Edit to add: Ah, they carry on. One-and-a-half hour's debate. John McDonnell rises, 7.40pm. "Recently I said Labour would support the Charter, now I ask that we vote against. Embarrassing? Yes. But not as embarrassing as the Chancellor's record." (Or words to that effect.) He's now listing the Chancellor's failures to meet his own targets.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:19 pm

Labour's CLG Devolution amendment defeated by 112 votes

Finally, the Chancer has risen in the Charter for Budget Responsibility debate. He wo'n't let Governments be 'plofrigate' and will fix the roof while the sun in shining. Chris Leslie asks, is there not a danger in forcing Governments to run surpluses 'in normal times' without defining those times and without protecting the 'most vulnerable in society'?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:21 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Not me - they should be voting against.

On AS, Blanchflower said that he could not find one economist in favour of this.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:28 pm

Clare Hepworth OBE ‏@Hepworthclare 9 hrs9 hours ago

NOTE to the PLP.
We ARE where we ARE deal with it.
CORBYN elected with huge majority.
Argue yr case in PLP
NOT on the air waves with journos

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:30 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Not me. It's about time Labour stopped playing the Osborne game and just called it as it is. First time I've heard some sensible reporting of how Osborne is operating (WATO earlier) and some clear arguments for why Labour should oppose it. Also set out very coherently just how void this 'fiscal charter' really is - how impossible for Osborne to meet his own bill requirements and how damaging it would be for the economy if he and future chancellors were bound by it.

Make the case for borrowing to pay for infrastructure ... as one commentator on WATO said if you applied this not allowing to live beyond current means / borrowing for anything to households nobody would have a mortgage to buy their own homes. It's a completely fatuous bill. Labour should be arguing why it is so - and also - again as a commentator said - pointing out that their record on running surpluses is better than that of the Conservatives. Economic credibility has to and can be earned in other, better ways than supporting or abstaining on an Osborne gimmick.

Edited to put in a missing 'to'.