Tuesday 24th November 2015

[danesclose]

So here we are, hours after Turkey shoots down a Russian plane (and no, I have no idea who is "right" if this could ever be any shade of right), and OGRPPFGTCC has nothing to say, while Philip "Mr.Burns" Hammond has little to say other than what great allies the Turks are whilst sparing a few moments to give Dennis Skinner a ticking-off.

It seems to me that Hammond is just there to cover for Fat Dave while he tries to work out what he thinks his friend Barack will think - and for now, all those charming Wahhabist-supporting places like Turkey, Saudi, and Qatar are still are still our best pals until the US tells NATO what it is supposed to do next....

WW3 - coming to your TV screens sooner than you think......

What! You mean OGRPPFGTCC hasn't called a COBRA meeting???

[seeingclearly]

Is it true a rescue helicopter looking for the pilots was brought down? I've seen a reference but no source. If it is true then that is very concerning.

[gilsey]

So here we are, hours after Turkey shoots down a Russian plane (and no, I have no idea who is "right" if this could ever be any shade of right), and OGRPPFGTCC has nothing to say, while Philip "Mr.Burns" Hammond has little to say other than what great allies the Turks are whilst sparing a few moments to give Dennis Skinner a ticking-off.

It seems to me that Hammond is just there to cover for Fat Dave while he tries to work out what he thinks his friend Barack will think - and for now, all those charming Wahhabist-supporting places like Turkey, Saudi, and Qatar are still are still our best pals until the US tells NATO what it is supposed to do next....

WW3 - coming to your TV screens sooner than you think......

Someone on another board I frequent said her teenage son was very worried after the Paris attacks, asked if it would be WW3 and conscription. Of course not, she said.

Given the complex, or chaotic if you prefer, situation in Syria, it's hard to see how something like this could have been avoided. Personally, I think Cameron and Hammond are thick as 2 short planks.

[ohsocynical]

Is it true a rescue helicopter looking for the pilots was brought down? I've seen a reference but no source. If it is true then that is very concerning.

I've read some Tweets that say the rescue helicopter was shot at by Rebels using American TWOs [some sort of weapon?]

And the pilots were shot as they parachuted down.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm increasingly think Corbyn is useless, I'm afraid. I'm trying to look beyond the media and internal critics, I really am.

There are core leftwing points that lots of Tory voters would agree with, and even his ultra critics would have trouble opposing. Get points like these out there and you might, despite everything, get a hearing from some voters. Keep the contentious stuff like nukes out of the way.

Old age social care is fucked. I haven't seen enough made of that. It's rumoured that even Osborne has clocked this now, and will allow councils to raise a special precept for social care. Why weren't Labour and Corbyn all over this before? As I always say, if you don't have a policy, set up a commission or task force or something. It now looks like Osborne's the one taking on the big issues.

Labour was actually ahead at the election with its policy of combining social care and health more closely. I haven't heard that mentioned since the election.

Kids Company- pretty much a textbook example of why traditional public sector accountability with vast sums of public money is a good thing. It's not an obscure lefty point- the Spectator and BBC exposed it, and Bernard Jenkin's select committee piled in.

Quasi-public sector fat cats, like academy bosses. Go for these, big time. The Tories won't want to defend these. Populist, leftwing and correct position. Corbyn needs to get this out there. The point comes up with care homes and much else too.

Michael White, who admittedly isn't a neutral bystander, made the point the other day that Corbyn is the wrong person to make the case where his policies are sensible. What you have to do in that case is, like McDonnell, outsource it to people who might get a better hearing. Try and find someone other than your old mate to look at Trident. I'm guessing Clive Lewis is against Trident, even if Dan Jarvis isn't. Put him or similar in charge.

I think the only way forward for Corbyn now is to announce he won't serve the full term. Cameron's doing it. It'll pull the rug from under the Blairite ultras. Tell them to get on with what Labour voters want them to do, and hold the government to account.

[ephemerid]

So here we are, hours after Turkey shoots down a Russian plane (and no, I have no idea who is "right" if this could ever be any shade of right), and OGRPPFGTCC has nothing to say, while Philip "Mr.Burns" Hammond has little to say other than what great allies the Turks are whilst sparing a few moments to give Dennis Skinner a ticking-off.

It seems to me that Hammond is just there to cover for Fat Dave while he tries to work out what he thinks his friend Barack will think - and for now, all those charming Wahhabist-supporting places like Turkey, Saudi, and Qatar are still are still our best pals until the US tells NATO what it is supposed to do next....

WW3 - coming to your TV screens sooner than you think......

What! You mean OGRPPFGTCC hasn't called a COBRA meeting???

Not as far as I know.

Mr.Burns has been circling in a holding pattern over Westminster while Fat Dave frantically tries to get hold of his friend Barack.
Until he succeeds, he'll have no idea what to do and has barricaded himself in with the claret while WerrityFox bangs on his door......meanwhile, Fallon is hiding in the toilet now that Gove has vacated it for him.....

Be sensible, danesclose - meetings in Cabinet Office Briefing Room A are scheduled according to a very strict timetable; Fat Dave hasn't got his passionatesleevesrolleduptieaskewstatesman act together yet. He's waiting for his instructions. Poor dab.

With a bit of luck, he'll get told to put the entire country under curfew and our major cities into lockdown - so that he can take over the BBC, and put on re-runs of Thatch's funeral interspersed with bulletins from him standing at his little lectern outside No.10 telling us that the situation is very very grave and serious indeed and he is absolutely going to do the right thing completely and he is very very clear about that indeed and he is passionate that as rich country with a longtermconomicplan we can beat our enemies etc.tc.etc.

Once the numpties who organise these things have nipped out to Waitrose, they'll get the room ready with tea and biccies and off a-COBRAing OGRPPFGTCC will go. Then poor Mr.Burns can go home for his supper and Fallon can be dragged squeaking out of the khazi.

This is how government works. I think. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary.

[ohsocynical]

@Tubby

councils to raise a special precept for social care.

I'm sure I read the other day that councils will be doing it via Council Tax ... If true, it'll go down like a lump of lead with Tory voters.

[gilsey]

I'm increasingly think Corbyn is useless, I'm afraid. I'm trying to look beyond the media and internal critics, I really am.

There are core leftwing points that lots of Tory voters would agree with, and even his ultra critics would have trouble opposing. Get points like these out there and you might, despite everything, get a hearing from some voters. Keep the contentious stuff like nukes out of the way.

Old age social care is fucked. I haven't seen enough made of that. It's rumoured that even Osborne has clocked this now, and will allow councils to raise a special precept for social care. Why weren't Labour and Corbyn all over this before? As I always say, if you don't have a policy, set up a commission or task force or something. It now looks like Osborne's the one taking on the big issues.

Labour was actually ahead at the election with its policy of combining social care and health more closely. I haven't heard that mentioned since the election.

Kids Company- pretty much a textbook example of why traditional public sector accountability with vast sums of public money is a good thing. It's not an obscure lefty point- the Spectator and BBC exposed it, and Bernard Jenkin's select committee piled in.

Quasi-public sector fat cats, like academy bosses. Go for these, big time. The Tories won't want to defend these. Populist, leftwing and correct position. Corbyn needs to get this out there. The point comes up with care homes and much else too.

Michael White, who admittedly isn't a neutral bystander, made the point the other day that Corbyn is the wrong person to make the case where his policies are sensible. What you have to do in that case is, like McDonnell, outsource it to people who might get a better hearing. Try and find someone other than your old mate to look at Trident. I'm guessing Clive Lewis is against Trident, even if Dan Jarvis isn't. Put him or similar in charge.

I think the only way forward for Corbyn now is to announce he won't serve the full term. Cameron's doing it. It'll pull the rug from under the Blairite ultras. Tell them to get on with what Labour voters want them to do, and hold the government to account.

I think you've actually described Corbyn's difficulty here, there's just too many problems. If it was one of us, how would we choose which ones to focus on? Note his speech yesterday about defence, a long list of problems with current policy. Everywhere you look, it's SNAFU.

That bit about Osborne taking on the big issues, it does look like that.
It's not impossible that he'll save us from UC.

[ohsocynical]

I'd have thought the best thing Corbyn could do is stand aside and let the Tories implode. They never work their ideas out, no matter what they tackle, it's always chaos, confusion and backtracking.

[Tubby Isaacs]

@Tubby

councils to raise a special precept for social care.

I'm sure I read the other day that councils will be doing it via Council Tax ... If true, it'll go down like a lump of lead with Tory voters.

I can't see Labour criticizing the tax from the Right really.

[PorFavor]

So here we are, hours after Turkey shoots down a Russian plane (and no, I have no idea who is "right" if this could ever be any shade of right), and OGRPPFGTCC has nothing to say, while Philip "Mr.Burns" Hammond has little to say other than what great allies the Turks are whilst sparing a few moments to give Dennis Skinner a ticking-off.

It seems to me that Hammond is just there to cover for Fat Dave while he tries to work out what he thinks his friend Barack will think - and for now, all those charming Wahhabist-supporting places like Turkey, Saudi, and Qatar are still are still our best pals until the US tells NATO what it is supposed to do next....

WW3 - coming to your TV screens sooner than you think......

What! You mean OGRPPFGTCC hasn't called a COBRA meeting???

Not as far as I know.

Mr.Burns has been circling in a holding pattern over Westminster while Fat Dave frantically tries to get hold of his friend Barack.
Until he succeeds, he'll have no idea what to do and has barricaded himself in with the claret while WerrityFox bangs on his door......meanwhile, Fallon is hiding in the toilet now that Gove has vacated it for him.....

Be sensible, danesclose - meetings in Cabinet Office Briefing Room A are scheduled according to a very strict timetable; Fat Dave hasn't got his passionatesleevesrolleduptieaskewstatesman act together yet. He's waiting for his instructions. Poor dab.

With a bit of luck, he'll get told to put the entire country under curfew and our major cities into lockdown - so that he can take over the BBC, and put on re-runs of Thatch's funeral interspersed with bulletins from him standing at his little lectern outside No.10 telling us that the situation is very very grave and serious indeed and he is absolutely going to do the right thing completely and he is very very clear about that indeed and he is passionate that as rich country with a longtermconomicplan we can beat our enemies etc.tc.etc.

Once the numpties who organise these things have nipped out to Waitrose, they'll get the room ready with tea and biccies and off a-COBRAing OGRPPFGTCC will go. Then poor Mr.Burns can go home for his supper and Fallon can be dragged squeaking out of the khazi.

This is how government works. I think. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary.

Yes - David Cameron is strangely silent on this one. He's been like a rat up a drainpipe on similar occasions.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm increasingly think Corbyn is useless, I'm afraid. I'm trying to look beyond the media and internal critics, I really am.

There are core leftwing points that lots of Tory voters would agree with, and even his ultra critics would have trouble opposing. Get points like these out there and you might, despite everything, get a hearing from some voters. Keep the contentious stuff like nukes out of the way.

Old age social care is fucked. I haven't seen enough made of that. It's rumoured that even Osborne has clocked this now, and will allow councils to raise a special precept for social care. Why weren't Labour and Corbyn all over this before? As I always say, if you don't have a policy, set up a commission or task force or something. It now looks like Osborne's the one taking on the big issues.

Labour was actually ahead at the election with its policy of combining social care and health more closely. I haven't heard that mentioned since the election.

Kids Company- pretty much a textbook example of why traditional public sector accountability with vast sums of public money is a good thing. It's not an obscure lefty point- the Spectator and BBC exposed it, and Bernard Jenkin's select committee piled in.

Quasi-public sector fat cats, like academy bosses. Go for these, big time. The Tories won't want to defend these. Populist, leftwing and correct position. Corbyn needs to get this out there. The point comes up with care homes and much else too.

Michael White, who admittedly isn't a neutral bystander, made the point the other day that Corbyn is the wrong person to make the case where his policies are sensible. What you have to do in that case is, like McDonnell, outsource it to people who might get a better hearing. Try and find someone other than your old mate to look at Trident. I'm guessing Clive Lewis is against Trident, even if Dan Jarvis isn't. Put him or similar in charge.

I think the only way forward for Corbyn now is to announce he won't serve the full term. Cameron's doing it. It'll pull the rug from under the Blairite ultras. Tell them to get on with what Labour voters want them to do, and hold the government to account.

I think you've actually described Corbyn's difficulty here, there's just too many problems. If it was one of us, how would we choose which ones to focus on? Note his speech yesterday about defence, a long list of problems with current policy. Everywhere you look, it's SNAFU.

That bit about Osborne taking on the big issues, it does look like that.
It's not impossible that he'll save us from UC.

Yeah, that's true. There's so much rubbish the government is spewing out that you can't digest and oppose all of it. I think the stuff I've suggested all encapsulates broad, popular, left of centre themes, and could all be taken on. If not by Corbyn in ever case, by a Shadow Spokesman. I quite like that he is sparing with interventions. He could make more of that, I think.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'd have thought the best thing Corbyn could do is stand aside and let the Tories implode. They never work their ideas out, no matter what they tackle, it's always chaos, confusion and backtracking.

Very good point. John Smith did that and it worked.

[ohsocynical]

George Osborne set to raise petrol prices in the Autumn Statement, fear experts

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/person ... perts-fear

[HindleA]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ral-damage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

‘Fit for work’ tests have normalised the suffering of sick and disabled people
Frances Ryan

[Tubby Isaacs]

George Osborne set to raise petrol prices in the Autumn Statement, fear experts

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/person ... perts-fear

Excellent, if true.

Unfortunately, they've boxed themselves in with this "workers party" stuff- workers apparently being people with cars, rather than people receiving working tax credits.

In retrospect the Major government was incredibly principled in introducing the fuel duty accelerator. I reckon Osborne and Cameron have studied that period very closely.

[gilsey]

They were fools to scrap the fuel duty accelerator, and bigger fools not to reintroduce it when prices fell.

[yahyah]

Our libraries here have always been very good.
Just rang my local one to order Eric Newby's 'Love & War in the Appenines' naively thinking it would be in the system somewhere across the county.
No it isn't, probably been chucked out to make room for modern crime novels and chick lit.

In the past, they would have bought it in, even if only as a second hand copy.
Now, the librarian tells me there is a freeze on book ordering.

Sign of the times I suppose. Can't really moan when people are suffering so much elsewhere, and about more than a book.
But it just feels as if a lot of what made Britain a decent nation is being eroded.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Our libraries here have always been very good.
Just rang my local one to order Eric Newby's 'Love & War in the Appenines' naively thinking it would be in the system somewhere across the county.
No it isn't, probably been chucked out to make room for modern crime novels and chick lit.

In the past, they would have bought it in, even if only as a second hand copy.
Now, the librarian tells me there is a freeze on book ordering.

Sign of the times I suppose. Can't really moan when people are suffering so much elsewhere, and about more than a book.
But it just feels as if a lot of what made Britain a decent nation is being eroded.

Does it make much difference if it has to be sent from out of county?

I used to use have that done a fair bit. It was excellent.

[yahyah]

There was talk of a Welsh government scheme where you could have a book from anywhere in the country.
The librarian seemed adamant she couldn't get it, and I wonder if they have quietly dropped inter-county liaison to save money too ?
Will ring tomorrow to ask again.

[ohsocynical]

Jack Dromey MP ‏@JackDromeyMP 3 hrs3 hours ago

Police Minister pulls out of Police Summit day before @George_Osborne announces cuts to Policing @DailyMirror

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... ut-6891126

Do Tories turn out for anything?

[seeingclearly]

I'm increasingly think Corbyn is useless, I'm afraid. I'm trying to look beyond the media and internal critics, I really am.

There are core leftwing points that lots of Tory voters would agree with, and even his ultra critics would have trouble opposing. Get points like these out there and you might, despite everything, get a hearing from some voters. Keep the contentious stuff like nukes out of the way.

Old age social care is fucked. I haven't seen enough made of that. It's rumoured that even Osborne has clocked this now, and will allow councils to raise a special precept for social care. Why weren't Labour and Corbyn all over this before? As I always say, if you don't have a policy, set up a commission or task force or something. It now looks like Osborne's the one taking on the big issues.

Labour was actually ahead at the election with its policy of combining social care and health more closely. I haven't heard that mentioned since the election.

Kids Company- pretty much a textbook example of why traditional public sector accountability with vast sums of public money is a good thing. It's not an obscure lefty point- the Spectator and BBC exposed it, and Bernard Jenkin's select committee piled in.

Quasi-public sector fat cats, like academy bosses. Go for these, big time. The Tories won't want to defend these. Populist, leftwing and correct position. Corbyn needs to get this out there. The point comes up with care homes and much else too.

Michael White, who admittedly isn't a neutral bystander, made the point the other day that Corbyn is the wrong person to make the case where his policies are sensible. What you have to do in that case is, like McDonnell, outsource it to people who might get a better hearing. Try and find someone other than your old mate to look at Trident. I'm guessing Clive Lewis is against Trident, even if Dan Jarvis isn't. Put him or similar in charge.

I think the only way forward for Corbyn now is to announce he won't serve the full term. Cameron's doing it. It'll pull the rug from under the Blairite ultras. Tell them to get on with what Labour voters want them to do, and hold the government to account.

Labour and Corbyn and Ed. before him have been all over social care. They were all over it when the legislation was going through in both houses, they debated in half empty chambers, got laughed at in the commons and sneered at in the select committees and not r eported on in the media.

I know for a fact that only last week Corbyn was meeting with and hearing the detail of how social care cuts are affecting people, at first hand, that is, from people directly affected. It takes time to gather the information and find the right moment to do things, there is a lot of stuff all coming to a head right now. Did you expect he would have a smooth ride? I didn't, in fact I predicted it would be a bumpier ride than even Ed got.

And now it is happening, should we do what they hoped they had programmed us to do? There is, as we are now used to seeing, a lot of disinformation and confusion around.

What is the tearing hurry? The tories are already getting themselves in knots, can't talk about things, don't show their faces, invent reasons not to be in the HoC, go on holidays, order jets, etc.etc.etc. They are losing sympathy from the public everyday. They've been writing policy while paying no heed to the consequences for five and a half years now, going as destructively fast as they can. Are you suggesting Labour should be the same?

[Tubby Isaacs]

http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/taxes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not signalled in advance was a series of announcements of real-terms cuts to fuel duties, which in April 2015 will be 15% lower than if the April 2010 duty had simply been uprated in line with the retail prices index, a £3.9 billion tax cut.

Corporation tax cuts also chucked away, per the IFS, £7.6bn.

Always money for pet projects and favourites.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Good work from John McDonnell again.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... -mcdonnell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also mentioning low investment. Wonder if it's worth a stunt on making investment of eg 2.5% a legal requirement?

Fair play to Corbyn here too- the team getting an important point out there. Just what I was criticizing him for!

[howsillyofme1]

I'm increasingly think Corbyn is useless, I'm afraid. I'm trying to look beyond the media and internal critics, I really am.

There are core leftwing points that lots of Tory voters would agree with, and even his ultra critics would have trouble opposing. Get points like these out there and you might, despite everything, get a hearing from some voters. Keep the contentious stuff like nukes out of the way.

Old age social care is fucked. I haven't seen enough made of that. It's rumoured that even Osborne has clocked this now, and will allow councils to raise a special precept for social care. Why weren't Labour and Corbyn all over this before? As I always say, if you don't have a policy, set up a commission or task force or something. It now looks like Osborne's the one taking on the big issues.

Labour was actually ahead at the election with its policy of combining social care and health more closely. I haven't heard that mentioned since the election.

Kids Company- pretty much a textbook example of why traditional public sector accountability with vast sums of public money is a good thing. It's not an obscure lefty point- the Spectator and BBC exposed it, and Bernard Jenkin's select committee piled in.

Quasi-public sector fat cats, like academy bosses. Go for these, big time. The Tories won't want to defend these. Populist, leftwing and correct position. Corbyn needs to get this out there. The point comes up with care homes and much else too.

Michael White, who admittedly isn't a neutral bystander, made the point the other day that Corbyn is the wrong person to make the case where his policies are sensible. What you have to do in that case is, like McDonnell, outsource it to people who might get a better hearing. Try and find someone other than your old mate to look at Trident. I'm guessing Clive Lewis is against Trident, even if Dan Jarvis isn't. Put him or similar in charge.

I think the only way forward for Corbyn now is to announce he won't serve the full term. Cameron's doing it. It'll pull the rug from under the Blairite ultras. Tell them to get on with what Labour voters want them to do, and hold the government to account.

Tubby

A good post

I am not totally in agreement with your views on Corbyn - to be fair though I do not really think you think he is 'useless' - perhaps he just isn't suited to leadership and is too principled to have the flexibility needed. It is, however, too early to make that decision although if you are right then a promise to step down and set up a more suitable leader that holds with the move to the left that Labour have gone through may be an option

I do say though it is far too early to draw this conclusion

Another point I want to make is I want to make my feelings clear on the view that Corbyn can never be PM - currently we have a lying, corrupt (morally if not financially), entitled, incompetent and useless wanker in No. 10 - if he can be PM then anyone can do it. All he has is that he lies without consequence (I think there is a word for someone with these traits) and shame and has an oily PR man's confidence

I would also like to say in response to Tubby's post that it is difficult to see where Corbyn could go as they current lot are spreading whiteness everywhere. It is similar to Miliband's situation.

I look at Kellner's review of the YouGov poll and him saying that Labour is out of step with public opinion

Austerity
The problem with this is the British people were lied to in 2010 and they believed it. The believed it because they do not see the difference between Government and a household. This lie was not beaten back in 2010 and now it is difficult to change their minds. Miliband couldn't do it - at least the current leadership is clearly anti-austerity and could profit when it goes tits up. They are not helped by the right-wing essentially agreeing with the Tories. The fault here does not lie with Corbyn

Benefits
Again, I support Labour on this and will not change my principles because a lot of voters are selfish and stupid. I say stupid because it is difficult to see what more they need to have explained to them why these policies are a mishmash of poor decisions. It seems to be beyond them that most spending in this area is for pensions and in-work top-up. I cannot see what more Labour could do as the media is as culpable as the Government.

Syria
Again, Labour is right on this and so is Corbyn. he made a real mess of the shoot-to-kill thing (I agree with McCluskey's comments but wish they were given in private). I think the Russian jet this morning may change the levels of support for this bombing and we have to really get out of this habit of throwing our weight around in a random fashion with no thought of outcomes

Trident
I am really happy Corbyn raised this and we are, at last, discussing it. Listening to the debate today I found all the arguments for retention to be completely without merit and so I am more convinced that giving it up would send a strong positive message to the world without compromising our security at all. The arrogance of the pro-side in the assumption that they are right and they do not need to bother making any real case is pathetic.....and Labour Party MPs are at the forefront of this

Security
I made my feelings clear about this the other day. Security is more than just terrorism. The biggest threats to our security in the medium to long-term are economic collapse (on a personal side losing my job as well), climate change, social disintegration. Terrorism from terrorism is negligible for me. The chances of someone I know being directly affected by terrorism are much lower than someone I know being affected by public service cuts, climate change effects or losing their economic security. Corbyn is right to talk about these things.

Labour clearly have a problem getting their message through but this was the way with Miliband as well. I am sure Corbyn doesn't help particularly but I also do not see any replacement for him that would be better to be honest. The media are a bunch of liars...everywhere and they oppose Labour for one main reason...it is clear the next Labour Government would take steps against them. Miliband would have and there is no doubt Corbyn would to.

I must say I find myself agreeing with Labour and Corbyn's broad stance on almost everything. He may not be effectively getting the message across but can all that be blamed on him in the current circumstances? The Tories, by contrast, are messing up absolutely everything and have no intellectual or moral backbone

In this case why would anyone do anything but support the direction that the Labour Party is trying to move in....what are the policies the PLP actually disagree with? And do I agree with them?

Replace Corbyn if you want but in the end the policies will need to be virtually identical

Edited to improve coherence and correct some formatting issues

[yahyah]

Night all.

Just a reminder that Corbyn has been in his role for 74 days, that's not even 11 weeks.
I've gone longer than that between haircuts and yet he is supposed to have performed miracles in that time.

[PorFavor]

@yahyah

Night night.

[Tubby Isaacs]

HowSilly,

I've just had to credit Corbyn, having just been rude about him! His team (McDonnell) getting an excellent point out there, making Osborne sound the loon. It's a good point about austerity, one of the things you bring up.

I want Corbyn to be in charge of his leaving though I think he has to do it. I reckon the leadership is there for a soft leftist who works well under him.

[PorFavor]

Good work from John McDonnell again.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... -mcdonnell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also mentioning low investment. Wonder if it's worth a stunt on making investment of eg 2.5% a legal requirement?

Fair play to Corbyn here too- the team getting an important point out there. Just what I was criticizing him for!

John McDonnell has turned out to be quite an asset rather than the liability that many predicted. Maybe we should have had him as leader . . .

[howsillyofme1]

HowSilly,

I've just had to credit Corbyn, having just been rude about him! His team (McDonnell) getting an excellent point out there, making Osborne sound the loon. It's a good point about austerity, one of the things you bring up.

I want Corbyn to be in charge of his leaving though I think he has to do it. I reckon the leadership is there for a soft leftist who works well under him.

I agree with you and the points you have made in this and the previous post. Clearly he is a capable man but the jury is still out on leadership. Hopefully, this will be resolved one way or another

One thing though....whoever, if anyone, replaces him should maintain the broad thrust of policy. There is no going back to the policies proposed by the right wing

[ohsocynical]

Damien Willey ‏@DamienWilley 2 mins2 minutes ago

The Royal Navy's flagship HMS Ocean is to be scrapped only a year after we spent £65 million pound refit.

http://fb.me/3s7y4SGLo

[ohsocynical]

Cn.jpg (33.61 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

[ephemerid]

I've been saying for a very very very very etc. long time that McDonnell would be good in cabinet - when Ed was in charge, I'd hoped he'd get rid of Reeves and put McDonnell in there.... still, this is good stuff from him and I'm pleased people agree.....

The world is in utter chaos. Now there's been an explosion in Greece - nobody hurt, as warnings were made in advance. I'm hoping that it is, as suggested, the responsibility of anti-austerity groups rather than terrorists; although it's still not OK. The Greeks have enough to worry about.

I am planning to loaf about on the sofa later - one of my favourite movies is on Film4 at 9, Philadelphia.
I always cry, so tissues at the ready....
No crisps, nuts or butter popcorn for me, alas. I might go wild and have a couple of Co-Codamol and a cup of tea.
All a bit rock'n'roll......

Night all.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

Good to see that.

Critical as I am of Corbyn, the message has to get out that he goes in his own time.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

[howsillyofme1]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

Hmm - little bit of aggressiveness yourself. If you cannot take criticism of your arguments....or not if you have not made any.....

It is only 11 weeks into his leadership so we will see how the polls develop when everything falls into an abyss of the Tory's own making

If you look at the recent YouGov it looks to me that the British people are completely on the wrong side of the argument - and they have been since early 2010. I know you only win elections by appealing to the electorate but if the electorate demonstrate the opinions they seem to then there only seems so much one can do in the face of the cretinous disloyalty of certain members (disloyalty can be tolerated to a certain extent, it is the other thing that is a problem)

Corbyn was not to blame for the fact that the Labour Party was a mess between 2010 and 2015 and most of the same people who made problems then are doing the same now - compare their behaviour with the dignity of Miliband

I also think you opinion on how the Blairites would treat a 'compromise' candidate very optimistic based on their behaviour since 2010

[TechnicalEphemera]

Also while I am here, to characterise those in favour of taking action against ISIS in Syria as advocating revenge bombing is really a total misrepresentation of their position.

Dan Jarvis set out a reasoned argument, pointing out that bombing for the hell of it isn't an option and that Cameron needs a strategy with an actual objective. Not sure the Russia, Turkey thing really changes that as one assumes NATO forces operating on the Turkish border won't be subject to interception by the Turks and certainly won't be engaging Russian aircraft. In that respect it may stabilise the situation.

That said Dave has to actually present a strategy and that might be beyond him. He also needs to be able to convince people he has a process in place to work with Russia. However if he does that he will carry enough votes to win.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

Hmm - little bit of aggressiveness yourself. If you cannot take criticism of your arguments....or not if you have not made any.....

It is only 11 weeks into his leadership so we will see how the polls develop when everything falls into an abyss of the Tory's own making

If you look at the recent YouGov it looks to me that the British people are completely on the wrong side of the argument - and they have been since early 2010. I know you only win elections by appealing to the electorate but if the electorate demonstrate the opinions they seem to then there only seems so much one can do in the face of the cretinous disloyalty of certain members (disloyalty can be tolerated to a certain extent, it is the other thing that is a problem)

Corbyn was not to blame for the fact that the Labour Party was a mess between 2010 and 2015 and most of the same people who made problems then are doing the same now - compare their behaviour with the dignity of Miliband

I also think you opinion on how the Blairites would treat a 'compromise' candidate very optimistic based on their behaviour since 2010

Show me where I have been aggressive, I am curious. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me.

Once you start blaming your defeats on the electorate being wrong it is probably time to get out of politics. The electorates verdict is always final, and you can only win with the electorate you have got.

[ohsocynical]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

All I'd say to that is - To win or rather try to win elections you have to have feet on the ground. Volunteers slogging door to door in all weathers and it's your Corbyn supporters who will be doing that. They've boosted numbers in local branches so there'll be more of them and more funds available.

If only some Lab MPs could shut their gobs and concentrate on what needs to be done, we'd all be happier.

[howsillyofme1]

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

Hmm - little bit of aggressiveness yourself. If you cannot take criticism of your arguments....or not if you have not made any.....

It is only 11 weeks into his leadership so we will see how the polls develop when everything falls into an abyss of the Tory's own making

If you look at the recent YouGov it looks to me that the British people are completely on the wrong side of the argument - and they have been since early 2010. I know you only win elections by appealing to the electorate but if the electorate demonstrate the opinions they seem to then there only seems so much one can do in the face of the cretinous disloyalty of certain members (disloyalty can be tolerated to a certain extent, it is the other thing that is a problem)

Corbyn was not to blame for the fact that the Labour Party was a mess between 2010 and 2015 and most of the same people who made problems then are doing the same now - compare their behaviour with the dignity of Miliband

I also think you opinion on how the Blairites would treat a 'compromise' candidate very optimistic based on their behaviour since 2010

Show me where I have been aggressive, I am curious. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me.

Once you start blaming your defeats on the electorate being wrong it is probably time to get out of politics. The electorates verdict is always final, and you can only win with the electorate you have got.

The bit where you were accusing unnamed posters of ' am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it. ' seems to pretty aggressive to me. I have seen no evidence of anyone behaving like this towards you

In 1933 43% of the German electorate voted for Adolf Hitler. I would say they were wrong. Should those parties who were opposed just say the electorate are right to support fascists so we should become fascists too? Democracy does not mean that the minority has to blindly follow the majority if they are wrong....

If the electorate believe in right wing politics as espoused by the Tories as they seem to be doing now then I say that they are wrong without hesitation. If they are being manipulated by the establishment and the right-wing press then there is very little we can do about that either under current circumstances

They are allowed their opinion and if that is what they want then so be it - but I do believe there its only a certain distance you can travel and maintain dignity.

What do you want people like me to do just throw away our principles because the rest of the electorate are, in my view, wrong?

Edit to add:

I have spoken to a number of people in my family and colleagues....some are clear Labour supporters and are happy to hear a strong anti-austerity message - not all are big Corbyn fans but they are happy with the message, others completely buy into the Tory message on austerity and they do believe that welfare claimants are all 'shirkers' and are happy to repeat the lies we hear and see too often. No argument seems to sway them and now they are in a frenzy about bombing foreigners.

One of those views is right in my view and one is wrong. If the majority is the one I find wrong then so be it but I am happy to say that they are wrong and I will blame them for the consequences

[HindleA]

So what do people think that hasn't already been "mentioned" may occur tomorrow?

[ohsocynical]

trident.png (7.06 KiB) Viewed 5132 times

These are the Labour rebels who defied Corbyn and voted to keep Trident:

I don't mind they voted this way...But I do find women on the list disappointing. I think my age is showing.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Cn.jpg

Poll for YouGov/Times shows Labour members who want Jeremy to lead us into 2020 up 7% since his election

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

All I'd say to that is - To win or rather try to win elections you have to have feet on the ground. Volunteers slogging door to door in all weathers and it's your Corbyn supporters who will be doing that. They've boosted numbers in local branches so there'll be more of them and more funds available.

If only some Lab MPs could shut their gobs and concentrate on what needs to be done, we'd all be happier.

Sadly Tory Boy Dave proves you need money rather than activists. Quite how anybody could bring themselves to work for the Tory party is beyond me.

There will of course still be members, and it is an interesting dilemma, but I think I would rather have a smaller membership and more popular policies. Obviously I would rather have a big membership and popular policies, but that isn't on offer now (unlike 97).

Being a little cheeky, I believe Mann made this point when he asked Labour's new defence expert and psychologist Ken Livingstone by asking him to help him campaign in Oldham. Livingstone refused (at least initially).

[seeingclearly]

There will be squirrels.

[HindleA]

Life is a compromise,whether we like it or not.I recognise the agonising contemplation of such compromising,I have done it for 35 years,belonging to a party,that at times I have fundamentally disagreed with in certain areas of policy I don't think I have sold my principles by doing so,rather acknowledged that most people do not share my view on some things and probably never will,even in the same party,never mind the general public and what option/choice do I have beyond ploughing my furrow.That is why I asked as to how leaving the only party,perhaps in coalition,that can replace,in my eyes,an inceasingly fascistic regime,"helps"

[HindleA]

Northern Powerhouse 2,the sequel.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Tories might indeed be able to do without many activists - for now. But there is no way that Labour can exist meaningfully as a "zombie" party - none.

(the result this year in Scotland, which occurred after a HUGE increase in SNP membership, is surely irrefutable proof of that)

In many ways, Corbyn is a side issue (any lingering doubts I had that he wouldn't continue until 2020 are pretty much gone now) Labour's only viable future given deeply ingrained and visceral establishment hostility is as a "bottom up" mass membership movement that uses that muscle to counter MSM propaganda and provide a meaningful alternative to this government.

A few people attached to the "old ways" taught by the likes of Mandelson won't like that. Very well, they can go off and make money instead

[citizenJA]

Good-evening, everyone. I hadn't intended to be away from here during the day, I logged in, posted good-morning and hours elapsed without my reading news or all my friends' communicating here throughout the day - I was reading and learning something entirely removed from current affairs. I came back here to read some hard and sorrowful news, I read friends coming back to write more that made me glad. I sat here and read every post from start to finish. You're extraordinary people, all of you. I'm impressed with you all.

The Labour party belongs to you, Ephemerid. The Labour party is yours. If you need some space from it, resign membership, that's your choice. I remain I remain as long as there's a Labour party, I remain a Labour party member. The Labour party is bigger than individual people belonging and representing as Labour party members.

I don't have to like every Labour party member or MP and they don't have to like me but we will love one another together for the purpose of maintaining one of the finest social democratic civilisations ever successfully built, maintained, through the efforts of people, including Labour party members. As long as Labour party MPs, local leadership, and members retain their love of the UK's socialist democracy, the NHS, social security provision funded by everyone contributing fairly, fair employment conditions, cooperative enterprise, supporting each other in our communities throughout the stages of our lives, the Labour party is alive.

Individually, we must make our own decisions about Labour party membership or support. I know something Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn told us all. We stay together, we vote Labour or we'll lose to other political powers with different ideas about how we'll live together. I remain a Labour party member.

I don't watch media, I don't watch television. I don't often listen to radio. Please explain who it is specifically being called moderates or Blairites. Please name specific names, behaviour and words from whom you're referring, please. I'm not criticising anyone by asking this. I don't know what the hell political problem you're writing about - calling someone a Blairite or a moderate doesn't give me enough information about what the precise problem is regarding Labour party MPs' behaviour or words. If there's a Labour MP or other leadership person off on some tangent of their own, remember, they're not Tories. They'll not remain in the Labour party if their conduct is unacceptable.

Please excuse grammatical or other errors. Please don't hesitate to ask me for more information if what I've written is unclear, please let me know if I'm mistaken in what I've posted.

[ohsocynical]

If people on here post suggesting all Labour needs to do is rally round Corbyn and it will all be ok, I rather feel duty bound to point out I really do not agree.

The poll above simply shows the scale of the problem. Hodges is fundamentally correct in his article, although as always he is unnecessarily nasty and over hyped. However at its core is a fundamental truth.

To win an election you need to win 12 million votes, you don't do that by following the agenda of your members where they are so disconnected from public opinion. This was the lesson learnt post 83. If you target your message at half a million people, not 12 million you are going to be hugely popular with those half million and utterly annihilated at the general election.

The most recent set of polls are grim, and you aren't comparing like with like looking at a GE result. Now polls are just polls, the by-election is an actual contest so it will be interesting to see what happens in that (although by-elections are of course also not exactly representative).

I am not going to be intimidated by people on this forum, I will post what I post, if people here want (again) to descend into personal abuse and snide passive aggressive stuff so be it.

I am not by the way right wing, I am not a Blairite, I too believed Ed Miliband was an excellent leader (and I still do). One upside of Corbyn is that the Blairites won't be trying to destabilise a compromise candidate.

However you have to win an election, I would think a number of centre left MPs could make a decent transitional leader, and they might even win.

All I'd say to that is - To win or rather try to win elections you have to have feet on the ground. Volunteers slogging door to door in all weathers and it's your Corbyn supporters who will be doing that. They've boosted numbers in local branches so there'll be more of them and more funds available.

If only some Lab MPs could shut their gobs and concentrate on what needs to be done, we'd all be happier.

Sadly Tory Boy Dave proves you need money rather than activists. Quite how anybody could bring themselves to work for the Tory party is beyond me.

There will of course still be members, and it is an interesting dilemma, but I think I would rather have a smaller membership and more popular policies. Obviously I would rather have a big membership and popular policies, but that isn't on offer now (unlike 97).

Being a little cheeky, I believe Mann made this point when he asked Labour's new defence expert and psychologist Ken Livingstone by asking him to help him campaign in Oldham. Livingstone refused (at least initially).

It's a pissing contest when there are people dying and they're too egotistic to see the game's changed

[Tubby Isaacs]

Christian Wolmar ‏@christianwolmar 3h3 hours ago

Just left Waterloo from Platform 19....but other Eurostar platforms still unused...after 8 years...#transportpolicyuseless

Not sure why this should be.