FlyTheNest

P.S. Is there anyone in the PLP who could give us Corbyn and McDonnell's anti-austerity, anti-privatisation position but be electable? I hesitate to say that Ed Miliband may be needed again but, sorry, that definitely ain't going to win any election.

JonnyT1234 wrote:particularly when the message they will be giving the 27% Labour leavers is that their views don't count at all.

So their views should count more than the majority of Labour voters because they agreed with Tories who wanted "out" instead of the pro-EU stance the Labour party has supported for a long time? We start changing our basic outlook to fit in with the views of a minority and our ideological enemies? If Labour had voted more heavily for leave it would be different, but they supported remain to the same degree as the SNP and I don't see Nicola Sturgeon changing her party's pro-EU stance to reflect the minority that voted "out".

I think the only thing stopping Corbyn from stepping down now is the fear (very real) that the PLP will "rig" the subsequent leadership election if he does.

We could then be looking at a full scale split, with the unions and the inevitable mass exodus of members setting up a breakaway (or as they might well put it "continuity Labour") party. Of course that would guarantee a loss for the left at the coming GE (whenever that is) and maybe for rather longer.

The only way out of this is the MPs allowing a genuine left option in any contest. It doesn't have to be Corbyn, but it has to be *somebody*.

For such an important change one would have thought that one would have needed >50% of those able to vote, rather than those who did vote, in order to leave. Most organisations require high percentages before constitutions etc. are able to be changed.

An actual BTL comment on the Guardian business blog:

Gary Ruddock 1m ago
0
1
I voted Leave. I genuinely don't give a toss about shares or the pound

Willow904 wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:particularly when the message they will be giving the 27% Labour leavers is that their views don't count at all.

So their views should count more than the majority of Labour voters because they agreed with Tories who wanted "out" instead of the pro-EU stance the Labour party has supported for a long time? We start changing our basic outlook to fit in with the views of a minority and our ideological enemies? If Labour had voted more heavily for leave it would be different, but they supported remain to the same degree as the SNP and I don't see Nicola Sturgeon changing her party's pro-EU stance to reflect the minority that voted "out".

Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Morning All

Some excellent points being made here.

I do hope we can hold together and respect others' views. It's not at all obvious to me what the right way forward is for Labour and I'm welcoming the range of opinions.

We're fumbling in the dark.
Quite a few times before the Ref, people were asking, what would happen if it was a close call. At the time it was expected Remain would still win, but it was getting uncomfortably close.

I can't remember anyone coming up with an answer.

Said before the referendum that the worst possible result was a narrow "leave" vote. That's what we got.

JonnyT1234 wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:particularly when the message they will be giving the 27% Labour leavers is that their views don't count at all.

So their views should count more than the majority of Labour voters because they agreed with Tories who wanted "out" instead of the pro-EU stance the Labour party has supported for a long time? We start changing our basic outlook to fit in with the views of a minority and our ideological enemies? If Labour had voted more heavily for leave it would be different, but they supported remain to the same degree as the SNP and I don't see Nicola Sturgeon changing her party's pro-EU stance to reflect the minority that voted "out".

Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

Yes - but Labour could pick up votes from "remainers" who wouldn't normally vote Labour.

minch wrote:For such an important change one would have thought that one would have needed >50% of those able to vote, rather than those who did vote, in order to leave. Most organisations require high percentages before constitutions etc. are able to be changed.

That would have needed a competent government. Guess what.

PorFavor wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:

Willow904 wrote: So their views should count more than the majority of Labour voters because they agreed with Tories who wanted "out" instead of the pro-EU stance the Labour party has supported for a long time? We start changing our basic outlook to fit in with the views of a minority and our ideological enemies? If Labour had voted more heavily for leave it would be different, but they supported remain to the same degree as the SNP and I don't see Nicola Sturgeon changing her party's pro-EU stance to reflect the minority that voted "out".

Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

Yes - but Labour could pick up votes from "remainers" who wouldn't normally vote Labour.

I agree (and said as much yesterday), but that may only help them win the election but lose the war. To keep that 27% of leavers in the future, the Labour Party needs to throw them something that they could support, not just completely ignore them and say, "how stupid of you, you were wrong". Hence my suggestion yesterday that Labour needs to stand on a 'we won't invoke article 50 but only if the EU does x, y and z. If it doesn't, we're out and out for good' ticket.

JonnyT1234 wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote: Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

Yes - but Labour could pick up votes from "remainers" who wouldn't normally vote Labour.

I agree (and said as much yesterday), but that may only help them win the election but lose the war. To keep that 27% of leavers in the future, the Labour Party needs to throw them something that they could support, not just completely ignore them and say, "how stupid of you, you were wrong". Hence my suggestion yesterday that Labour needs to stand on a 'we won't invoke article 50 but only if the EU does x, y and z. If it doesn't, we're out and out for good' ticket.

I read all of yesterday's posts - but there were so many of them. Sorry for not remembering yours. It's all a bit of a haze!





Edited - typo

PorFavor wrote:I read all of yesterdy's posts - but there were so many of them. Sorry for not remembering yours. It's all a bit of a haze!

To be fair, it wasn't something I said explicitly, but it was inferred in what I was saying about how Labour can win an early election. So I forgive you

Morning



http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/ri ... go-system/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Rise in disabled train passenger numbers sparks call for ‘turn up and go’ system

JonnyT1234 wrote:

PorFavor wrote:I read all of yesterdy's posts - but there were so many of them. Sorry for not remembering yours. It's all a bit of a haze!

To be fair, it wasn't something I said explicitly, but it was inferred in what I was saying about how Labour can win an early election. So I forgive you

As I forgive you for making my typo edit a waste of time!

JonnyT1234 wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:particularly when the message they will be giving the 27% Labour leavers is that their views don't count at all.

So their views should count more than the majority of Labour voters because they agreed with Tories who wanted "out" instead of the pro-EU stance the Labour party has supported for a long time? We start changing our basic outlook to fit in with the views of a minority and our ideological enemies? If Labour had voted more heavily for leave it would be different, but they supported remain to the same degree as the SNP and I don't see Nicola Sturgeon changing her party's pro-EU stance to reflect the minority that voted "out".

Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

Labour can't lose 7 tenths either. This is a genuine split that eclipses PLP shenanigans. Something fundamental has changed. There is no more business as usual. Lots of people across the remain and leave camps are going to have to reassess the loose political coalitions they have been rubbing along with against a backdrop of we're in the EU and that's that and assess if the fit is still right in a "we're supposed to be leaving but no one wants to do it" scenario. Some big big questions are about to be asked of all parties of what they stand for and what their priorities are. When the dust settles, the voters will have to make the same reassessment and I don't think anyone can predict how that will pan out.

Can I just say that I'm enjoying there being a genuine discussion carried out here.

Echo chamber and all.

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Amazing stuff. Truly amazing.

Lisa Nandy!!!!! serioiusly? Thats who they have put up against him? They have lost the plot completely.

Follow up:

Most of us here are obviously pro-Remain, but how many of us are 10 out of 10 pro-Remain? I'm actually less enthusiastic about the EU than Corbyn - 5.5 to 6.0 out of 10. It's vital for many of my colleagues work. It's vital for the environment and a unified response to other global issues. I'm very pro a federal Europe in the distant future. I'm pro-immigration. But the pro-privatisation, pro-'liberalisation' of working regulations (aka, making it easier to hire and fire), lack of democratic accountability, etc I am not at all keen on. The drift of the EU in the past 20 years has been decidedly right-wing. Who of us really wants it to carry on going that way?

Here's an opportunity to try and change it, if we can successfully manage to stay in it. But that's a conditional stay in it for me, not a blanket carry on doing what you were doing before one.

JonnyT1234 wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote: Their views count when Labour needs to win an election was my point. Labour can't lose 3 tenths of their voters in an election.

Yes - but Labour could pick up votes from "remainers" who wouldn't normally vote Labour.

I agree (and said as much yesterday), but that may only help them win the election but lose the war. To keep that 27% of leavers in the future, the Labour Party needs to throw them something that they could support, not just completely ignore them and say, "how stupid of you, you were wrong". Hence my suggestion yesterday that Labour needs to stand on a 'we won't invoke article 50 but only if the EU does x, y and z. If it doesn't, we're out and out for good' ticket.

I very much like your plan. I'm not sure that's what the "leavers" are looking for but it's worth a go. If they've voted Labour recently enough to be called Labour voters, then they aren't the type of working class voters which have been long lost to Ukip who I think it's futile to try to win back if Labour is to continue to be a progressive, integrated party.

3m ago 11:45

According to the BBC, Owen Smith, the shadow work and pensions secretary, and Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, are resigning. (Poltics Live, Guardian)

Edited - typo

Deleted - beaten to it by Robert.

JonnyT1234 wrote:

frightful_oik wrote:They want him to resign so he can't stand against them and renew his mandate.

That's exactly it.

Imagine the situation should Corbyn refuse to resign, and then wins another leadership contest. That's going to be a disaster for the Labour Party. It'll show for certain that the PLP has completely lost the confidence of the party's members (if it hasn't already).

I hate to say it, but as much as I would like Corbyn to be belligerent enough to go to a leadership election so I can be part of the movement that gives these self-entitled arseholes in the PLP a right bloody nose, he's got to resign otherwise the Labour Party is done. Finished. Kaput. Over. And as much as that is something that is actually needed so it can be rebuilt anew with people who aren't a bunch of complete idiots, this is not the time for it.

Sorry, but you don't reward bullies. Not for any reason because if you do they never stop.
If we let the right get away with this it will be the Labour party in name only.
They obviously don't give a shit about what's happening to the country otherwise they'd be in their constituencies arranging damage control and trying to allay the fears of those who voted Remain. Plus of course trying to damp down anti this or that - take your pick - feelings.

And attracting back disillusioned voters? The mealy mouthed little snots are actually cementing the view of politicians not being connected, not caring, and in it for what they can get out of it.

It's not about Corbyn now. It's about giving in to a bunch of people that don't give a crap about the democratic process a lesson in how it's supposed to be done.

fedup59 wrote:

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Some in the MSM are now starting to admit that voting in Miliband as PM last year might not have been such a bad idea......

Oh hindsight don't you love it. If I'd known Labour would lose the election would I have voted to stay part of the UK? If I'd known brexit would win would I have voted yes to independence? If scotland had voted for independence would brexit have had a chance of winning or would the sniggers about scottish self harm and being blocked from joining have focused ruk minds on how daft the Scots were. Alternative histories to be available at a book store near you in the near future.

Morning all by the way

NonOxCol wrote:

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Amazing stuff. Truly amazing.

Reminds me of Dick Chaney and Dubya: they live in a world of their own, with their own facts.

RobertSnozers wrote:

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think the only thing stopping Corbyn from stepping down now is the fear (very real) that the PLP will "rig" the subsequent leadership election if he does.

We could then be looking at a full scale split, with the unions and the inevitable mass exodus of members setting up a breakaway (or as they might well put it "continuity Labour") party. Of course that would guarantee a loss for the left at the coming GE (whenever that is) and maybe for rather longer.

The only way out of this is the MPs allowing a genuine left option in any contest. It doesn't have to be Corbyn, but it has to be *somebody*.

Another reason the coup is so monumentally stupid. Labour needs the unions (Christ, Corbyn brought some unions back on board, started to make it look more like a labour movement again) as much as it needs the members.

Sorry, but what the hell do these idiots think they are doing? How can ANYONE think this is a good idea??

A lot of the PLP genuinely seem to think the only thing that matters is the approval of lobby journalists - some of the worst people on the planet.

RobertSnozers wrote:

NonOxCol wrote:

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Amazing stuff. Truly amazing.

Tom Peck ‏@tompeck 2h

@afneil quite right. It's about time those who warned of self-inflicted catastrophe shut up and got on board with self-inflicted catastrophe

It's not just how easy it is to demolish the argument: it's the sheer chutzpah of Neil, when the BBC has followed the agenda of the right wing press for years (most of which backs Leave), given Farage a weekly platform that imo led directly to this debacle, is run by an ex-Murdoch man with RWs crawling all over the bloody news department...

StephenDolan wrote:Can I just say that I'm enjoying there being a genuine discussion carried out here.

Echo chamber and all.

I agree and I would like to say that all the people on here are ones who I treat with the utter respect even though I can get a bit snippy sometimes - PF and Willow who I seem to be in disagreement with a lot at the moment - I think there is more that joins us than separates us

Saying, that I would like to come to this argument over to 63% vs 27% - it is a very difficult question to answer

On the 63% - I don't know how many of them were ultra-remainers - does this demographic exist? I was a bit of a reluctant remainer and actualyl found the skeptical approach with a few to pursuing reform as a good message that spoke to me

I also think that any commitment to reverse the referendum result is an absolutely no-starter - after reflection. The only option is to get a good deal and that is looking increasingly unlikely at the moment - no fault of Corbyn's mind

I think the Bryant comment on the Guardian was disgraceful by the way and he should be sent to the farthest reaches of hell (also known as West Bromwich) for that

The 23% is actually a pretty low figure - lower than I thought - and the focus should be on austerity and lack of support for those areas affected by immigration. It is the sympton that people want treating ie poor public services and lack of provision of housing, as well as a lack of hope. This can only come from a committed anti-austerity Labour Party

In summary, there needs to be a Labour Party who is looking for the best deal Britain can get in the upcoming deal (and I think our best chance comes from invoking A50 as soon as possible, delaying will only cause more pain later - I will say one phrase that could be said easily by Europe - 'no single market without Schengen') combined with a concerted focus on austerity and how it has impacted on the areas who voted Leave. Try to get off making immigration the focus. I find many of the xenophobic Leavers are actually against the concept as a generality rather than against specific people they know - many know and appreciate individual immigrants - anecdote alert!!!

The bulk of those throwing the dummy out of the pram today want a different focus than I do which is why I cannot accept what they are doing....

PorFavor wrote:

3m ago 11:45

According to the BBC, Owen Smith, the shadow work and pensions secretary, and Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, are resigning. (Poltics Live, Guardian)

Edited - typo

If true, I don't see how Jez can hang on tbh - they were the types he needed to retain the support of to see this thing off.

Ah well - now the task is ensuring the coming contest isn't, after all, rigged.

This is where we are at folks :

Matthew Moore ‏@mattkmoore 1h1 hour ago Camberwell, London
Kelvin MacKenzie: 'I have buyer's remorse. To be truthful I am fearful of what lies ahead'.

AngryAsWell wrote:This is where we are at folks :

Matthew Moore ‏@mattkmoore 1h1 hour ago Camberwell, London
Kelvin MacKenzie: 'I have buyer's remorse. To be truthful I am fearful of what lies ahead'.

It's almost worth it to have Kelvin MacKenzie "fearful". Now he knows how it feels.

One thing I really do want to hear/read is the next steps envisioned by those on the left who voted leave. Not to have a go but to better understand what they feel should be done. If the only space on the leave arguments is being filled by racist triumphalism there truly will be nowhere to go.

I think that Labour's priorities need to be based on leave and remain members' commonalities.

For what its worth I also think that rewarding the PPL's betrayal of the Labour movement (my view of what's happening) is fundamentally wrong. They are finally killing the Labour party. Maybe it has moved so far from its reason to exist as the party of the Labour movement it had to come but it is a sad ending.

Morning.

A little snippet I found in the FT. How the other half lives....

"From London’s Harrods department store in Knightsbridge, to online precious metals dealers, many reported record volumes and demand on Friday. Sharps Pixley, which has a store in Mayfair, said online sales had drained its stocks of larger bullion bars, leading it to call on emergency reserves in Germany."

Sobering stuff. Or, you know, if you're Andrew Neil or Carole Malone, a load of scaremongering and creating havoc.

https://theconversation.com/brexit-impa ... rash-61648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Angela Eagle has resigned (BBC).

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think the only thing stopping Corbyn from stepping down now is the fear (very real) that the PLP will "rig" the subsequent leadership election if he does.

We could then be looking at a full scale split, with the unions and the inevitable mass exodus of members setting up a breakaway (or as they might well put it "continuity Labour") party. Of course that would guarantee a loss for the left at the coming GE (whenever that is) and maybe for rather longer.

The only way out of this is the MPs allowing a genuine left option in any contest. It doesn't have to be Corbyn, but it has to be *somebody*.

I really fear a split.

If anybody thinks this might be good I urge them to look at what has happened to the Social Democrats in Germany. They are on the way to oblivion. And the current lot who have dug the hole are the equivalent of the Blairites. As many have said here, why vote Tory lite when you can vote for the real thing ( the CDU) so people have done. There is a left party - die Linke - but they still have too much baggage as they developed from the party in the old East Germany to get a lot of support.

The most popular politician now seems to be Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister President of Baden Württemberg . He is a Green and he is not young (b.1948). Note that the Greens in general are no longer popular in Germany. Kretschmann is pragmatic - he listens to his constituents and is extremely popular - as Angela Merkel used to be.

The party system seems to be breaking down everywhere.Is it a good or a bad thing?

PorFavor wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:This is where we are at folks :

Matthew Moore ‏@mattkmoore 1h1 hour ago Camberwell, London
Kelvin MacKenzie: 'I have buyer's remorse. To be truthful I am fearful of what lies ahead'.

It's almost worth it to have Kelvin MacKenzie "fearful". Now he knows how it feels.

When I read further he's calling for anyone who feels the same to contact him
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If the response is large will the Sun backtrack & call for us to stay because it was all a big mistake ?

RogerOThornhill wrote:OK, funeral time. Catch you all later.

StephenDolan wrote:Can I just say that I'm enjoying there being a genuine discussion carried out here.

Echo chamber and all.

Exactly!

AngryAsWell wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:This is where we are at folks :

Matthew Moore ‏@mattkmoore 1h1 hour ago Camberwell, London
Kelvin MacKenzie: 'I have buyer's remorse. To be truthful I am fearful of what lies ahead'.

It's almost worth it to have Kelvin MacKenzie "fearful". Now he knows how it feels.

When I read further he's calling for anyone who feels the same to contact him
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the response is large will the Sun backtrack & call for us to stay because it was all a big mistake ?

Yes and the Tories will be big and brave to u-turn and save us all from Armageddon. This is why it's so important for Labour to stick to it's pro-remain stance and not talk at all about exit strategies etc until article 50 has been invoked because if we talk up leaving before we actually leave we could well be in serious danger of finding ourselves on the wrong side of a stampeding backtrack.

RobertSnozers wrote:

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think the only thing stopping Corbyn from stepping down now is the fear (very real) that the PLP will "rig" the subsequent leadership election if he does.

We could then be looking at a full scale split, with the unions and the inevitable mass exodus of members setting up a breakaway (or as they might well put it "continuity Labour") party. Of course that would guarantee a loss for the left at the coming GE (whenever that is) and maybe for rather longer.

The only way out of this is the MPs allowing a genuine left option in any contest. It doesn't have to be Corbyn, but it has to be *somebody*.

Another reason the coup is so monumentally stupid. Labour needs the unions (Christ, Corbyn brought some unions back on board, started to make it look more like a labour movement again) as much as it needs the members.

Sorry, but what the hell do these idiots think they are doing? How can ANYONE think this is a good idea??

(my bold)

I don't know. It seems madness.

At least the gang of four had the decency (never thought I'd put those words together) to leave the party. This bunch have told the members to sod off its not your party!

I really miss hobsbawm he used to make sense of these historical shifts. Which age are we in/ heading towards now. Maybe it makes sense democracy and the party system were established for the industrialised age but it's really scary not knowing what the hell comes next.

On the up side there are probably 400,000 or so slightly used political activists seeking a new home. Maybe it is time to watch this space (theoretically of course).

Kate Connolly Kate Connolly
As Brexit continues to dominate every front page in Europe, here are a few more snippets from some of the editorials today.

Nepszabadsag, from Hungary, says there is much confusion over how to view what has happened.

So which British decision should we now respect? The one resulting from the referendum? Or the fact that very many Britons are now shocked about the result and its effects and basically want to reverse everything?

Der Standard, Austria, believes there is still a chance the referendum result might not lead to a Brexit.

The British people’s decision is to be respected. But the referendum is not binding. It is still not clear whether the parliament in London will vote in favour of this monumentous decision with all the tragic economic and political consequences that will go with it. The EU partners should not force them...we should wait to see what the British decide to do.

Interesting comments from elsewhere in Europe from the G live blog.

Everyone got their popcorn ready for 3.30?
http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/ ... june-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor wrote:

3m ago 11:45

According to the BBC, Owen Smith, the shadow work and pensions secretary, and Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, are resigning. (Poltics Live, Guardian)

Edited - typo

Et tu Owen ?

fedup59 wrote:On the up side there are probably 400,000 or so slightly used political activists seeking a new home. Maybe it is time to watch this space (theoretically of course).

Which reminds me, hasn't the past week been a massive betrayal of the younger people in our country.

First the greybeards vote them out of the EU against their wishes. Second, the greybeards kill off (in all likelihood) the man that inspired so many of them to get involved in politics.

On the (possible) plus side, the Greens could do very well out of it as the more natural home for many of those 400,000.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

3m ago 11:45

According to the BBC, Owen Smith, the shadow work and pensions secretary, and Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, are resigning. (Poltics Live, Guardian)

Edited - typo

If true, I don't see how Jez can hang on tbh - they were the types he needed to retain the support of to see this thing off.

Ah well - now the task is ensuring the coming contest isn't, after all, rigged.

And what do they ddo when Corbyn wins? He now has a clear majority on the NEC now? He wins another election and the split happens, or he is stopped from standing and Labour is finished?

John Healy has also resigned.

RobertSnozers wrote:This is the man who could not feel remorse for smearing the dead.

He did much worse to the living.