Thursday, 7th July 2016

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:14 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?
Grant Shapps for PM.
Well exactly. Could you rule it out?

With Michael Green as Chancellor?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:14 pm

Personal Independence Payment (PIP) assessment: second independent review

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ent-review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:15 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
danesclose wrote:.
Easily the most sensible post here today danesclose

Mm, maybe an extra full stop would have really clinched it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:17 pm

gilsey wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I want a simple answer to a simple question please:

How much (in direct civil service/consultancy etc costs alone) is Brexit going to cost?
You're even more determined to see the downsides of Bwrecksit than I am, tiny.

OMG: EY and KPMG to negotiate Brexit
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... ch+UK+2%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, it doesn't matter how much it costs, it will just be paid.
Unlike say, the NHS.

Not determined - just finding it difficult to see any other way.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:17 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?
Grant Shapps for PM.

I think it's gone past how electable a Lab MP is and is reaching the stage of how many p***** off voters there are out there.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:17 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:...partly because he is so inept...
The PLP being tremendously competent, of course. I mean, this coup has been pulled off without a single hitch following a full 9 months of plotting and planning for the moment. Corbyn demonstrating once again just how useless he is in comparison to the leading lights of the PLP by hopelessly beating the other, much superior candidates for the leadership and then turning tail and not resigning when he was meant to.

It's like that scene from Star Trek where Kirk does the seemingly impossible by beating Spock at 3D chess by being illogical with his moves. "Curse you Kirk and your entirely predictable behaviour of not doing what you were meant to do... I mean, who could have seen that coming!"

A difficult point

Some did it because they think it is the right thing to do regardless of whether they will succeed in removing him. If I were an MP, I'd be in that camp.

Some did it because they didn't realise that Corbyn is a different kind of leader from Wilson, Callaghan, Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Brown or Miliband. if any one of them had lost the majority support of the PLP (let alone 80% of it) they'd resign.

Some I think thought that at a human level, a 67 year old wouldn't stand up to the enormous pressure put on him to quit.

Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP. He couldn't quit, even though I suspect at a personal level he'd love to, as that would betray McDonnell, Milne et al. So he can't.

But I think you are wrong in thinking this was a planned conspiracy. Two things pushed the PLP over the edge

First Europe. Corbyn's team betrayed the Remain campaign, and Corbyn personally did nothing to stop that. Most MPs are passionate Remainers, unlike Corbyn, and were appalled by the referendum result. On Saturday morning Corbyn called for an immediate invocation of Art 50. This was both unbelievably stupid (I swore at the radio) and revealed his own views on Brexit.

Second the threat of a general election. With a change of Tory leader it was thought there would be a snap general election. That would mean a loss of Labour seats, possibly a quarter of them. That meant the need to remove him was pressing. That immediate threat has receded. The signing up of 100,000 plus new members also makes it clear that any challenger would lose.

i think a challenger should still stand, even though they will lose. And stand again next year. And the year after that. And so on.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:18 pm

The point about Miliband's intervention is that it was far more nuanced than "Jeremy is terrible and must stand down now". It was an appeal to him that if he stubbornly clings on willy-nilly, he risks damaging the things that he claims to care about.

And that's the sort of thing that might work, but only *if* people are convinced this "coup" won't live up to its name and impose top down right wing control of the party regardless of what members and unions think (and the dirty little secret of some on the right is that they *want* a small passive party)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:18 pm

yahyah wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
danesclose wrote:.
Easily the most sensible post here today danesclose

Mm, maybe an extra full stop would have really clinched it.

I thought it an excellent comment.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:19 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point about Miliband's intervention is that it was far more nuanced than "Jeremy is terrible and must stand down now". It was an appeal to him that if he stubbornly clings on willy-nilly, he risks damaging the things that he claims to care about.

And that's the sort of thing that might work, but only *if* people are convinced this "coup" won't live up to its name and impose top down right wing control of the party regardless of what members and unions think (and the dirty little secret of some on the right is that they *want* a small passive party)

i think that is an excuse.

The coterie around Corbyn would ensure he never resigned come what may. They don't care what Miliband thinks.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point about Miliband's intervention is that it was far more nuanced than "Jeremy is terrible and must stand down now". It was an appeal to him that if he stubbornly clings on willy-nilly, he risks damaging the things that he claims to care about.

And that's the sort of thing that might work, but only *if* people are convinced this "coup" won't live up to its name and impose top down right wing control of the party regardless of what members and unions think (and the dirty little secret of some on the right is that they *want* a small passive party)

If Corbyn gives an inch the PLP will be all over the left like a rash.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:21 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
danesclose wrote:.
Easily the most sensible post here today danesclose

offended emoticon

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:22 pm

danesclose wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Different story from Owen Smith who is the most likely candidate. But unless the unions have any interest in pushing for a resolution I tend to agree with the Telegraph view.

If Corbyn hangs on I don't really see an alternative other than to break away. Assuming he loses the next election by a landslide, he still won't resign and it would be better to create a credible opposition now rather than later. It might reduce the number of Tory governments from 3 to 2.

I had thought for about 6 hours last week that Miliband's intervention might swing it. Indeed a year ago it would have done as the party was differently constituted. Now it is a different party. Smith/Eagle etc must know that if they stand they will lose. So what else to do? Wait I suppose. He is 67, and it isn't going to be fun trying to run the opposition frontbench with the likes of Burgon, Flynn and Lewis. if the members still really, really want to jump off this cliff, what can the MPs do? Try next year? His position is still deteriorating and isn't going to improve (partly because he is so inept).
And if Corbyn does resign, who do you think the PLP will be satisfied with as Leader? Certainly not Smith (far too left wing)
They weren't happy with either Brown or Miliband.
Would you be happy with anyone other than a disciple of Blair?

i think the world has changed in this regard, and that is old thinking.

So horrified are most of the PLP by Corbyn (as I am) that the loyalty to whoever succeeded him would be unimpeachable.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:22 pm

Maybe Leadsom will banish us pessimists to somewhere warm and sunny.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:23 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point about Miliband's intervention is that it was far more nuanced than "Jeremy is terrible and must stand down now". It was an appeal to him that if he stubbornly clings on willy-nilly, he risks damaging the things that he claims to care about.

And that's the sort of thing that might work, but only *if* people are convinced this "coup" won't live up to its name and impose top down right wing control of the party regardless of what members and unions think (and the dirty little secret of some on the right is that they *want* a small passive party)
i think that is an excuse.

The coterie around Corbyn would ensure he never resigned come what may. They don't care what Miliband thinks.

Miliband was trashed by the right albeit less openly. Sorry, but he should have known better.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:26 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP.

They're called the members of the Labour Party, Hugo. Rather more of them than the 'small right group' to which you belong.

But I think you are wrong in thinking this was a planned conspiracy.

Well, it's definitely difficult to believe it was "planned" for sure. Because, despite it being blatantly obvious from the get go that there were elements of the PLP gunning for this moment since the day the leadership result came in, there's scant evidence that they have a clue what they're doing. But, the "grown-ups" of the Party want to take back control. Hey ho.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:28 pm

: CmvcAkKWAAA9LUH.jpg (127.64 KiB) Viewed 6826 times

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:31 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?

In case anyone is unsure, I'm not saying Hugo shouldn't be allowed to post. I just think, given that his opinions are so self-serving and repetitive, that debating them is pointless, especially as he also is in the habit of moving the goalposts around every time someone says anything incontrovertible to contradict him.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:33 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP.
They're called the members of the Labour Party, Hugo. Rather more of them than the 'small right group' to which you belong.
.

I don't think that is right. It is this group mentioned at the start to which he has been loyal to for 35 years

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:35 pm

Aaron Bastani ‏@AaronBastani · 21h21 hours ago
Alan Johnson's Hull West CLP vote to support Jeremy Corbyn. 48 For, 7 Against, 5 Abstentions.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:44 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Different story from Owen Smith who is the most likely candidate. But unless the unions have any interest in pushing for a resolution I tend to agree with the Telegraph view.

If Corbyn hangs on I don't really see an alternative other than to break away. Assuming he loses the next election by a landslide, he still won't resign and it would be better to create a credible opposition now rather than later. It might reduce the number of Tory governments from 3 to 2.

I had thought for about 6 hours last week that Miliband's intervention might swing it. Indeed a year ago it would have done as the party was differently constituted. Now it is a different party. Smith/Eagle etc must know that if they stand they will lose. So what else to do? Wait I suppose. He is 67, and it isn't going to be fun trying to run the opposition frontbench with the likes of Burgon, Flynn and Lewis. if the members still really, really want to jump off this cliff, what can the MPs do? Try next year? His position is still deteriorating and isn't going to improve (partly because he is so inept).

If he is as inept as you & others purport to believe, then it shouldn't be too difficult for someone to challenge him then. I can't speak for the other 600'000 party members, but I for one am quite open to being swayed by reasonable arguments.

(I tried to post longer reply, but my browser eat it)

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point about Miliband's intervention is that it was far more nuanced than "Jeremy is terrible and must stand down now". It was an appeal to him that if he stubbornly clings on willy-nilly, he risks damaging the things that he claims to care about.

And that's the sort of thing that might work, but only *if* people are convinced this "coup" won't live up to its name and impose top down right wing control of the party regardless of what members and unions think (and the dirty little secret of some on the right is that they *want* a small passive party)

Exactly.

It seems he is willing to take the risk you describe; his view has always been that he is where he is because the members voted for it.
Miliband made some good points, and as you say his intervention was far more nuanced than is being reported. As expected.

For anyone to say that this "coup" wasn't planned, though, is a bit spurious, IMHO. Corbyn has been briefed against by his own MPs since he became leader - and those MPs have been aided and abetted by a very hostile media. Take a bow, Laura K.

We've had shadow ministers, people like Reeves, Reed, plenty more, resigning as soon as the vote was counted; we've had the list of hostile/core group negative/whatever MPs, allegedly written in January and leaked in March; we've had Doughty resigning live on TV in cahoots with the BBC and with a leak to Cameron just in time for PMQs; we've had rows about bullying, anti-semitism, all sorts (none of which have actually been proven yet, if they ever will be); and now this drip-drip of resignations post-Brexit, a failed "coup" in which no credible challenger has the cojones to stand, and a bunch of MPs who have made themselves look totally out of touch.

I do not agree with everything Corbyn stands for; but the same could be said for most people when it comes to politicians they vote for.
No one politician gets all things right for all the people - it would be ludicrous to expect them to be a perfect fit. They're only human.

It is wrong to assume Corbyn is unelectable. If he is tested and found wanting, fair enough. But nobody actually knows.
One thing is for sure - Labour will make itself unelectable as a party if it doesn't pull its' collective socks up.
I won't vote for a party that behaves the way Labour has in these past days. They are a disgrace.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:51 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?
In case anyone is unsure, I'm not saying Hugo shouldn't be allowed to post. I just think, given that his opinions are so self-serving and repetitive, that debating them is pointless, especially as he also is in the habit of moving the goalposts around every time someone says anything incontrovertible to contradict him.

Thank you, mbc1955.

You are, as you were yesterday, absolutely right.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:54 pm

Freedom Of the Press - fantastic post - thank you.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:01 pm

Andrea Leadsom has hit out at the people criticising her CV. She said she didn't get any of this kind of nonsense when she was an astronaut.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Easily the most sensible post here today danesclose

Mm, maybe an extra full stop would have really clinched it.
I thought it an excellent comment.

Thank you for the literary criticism

I posted something, realised it was inappropriate, couldn't delete it or remove all comments, so I just left a full stop

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:14 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
danesclose wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
I had thought for about 6 hours last week that Miliband's intervention might swing it. Indeed a year ago it would have done as the party was differently constituted. Now it is a different party. Smith/Eagle etc must know that if they stand they will lose. So what else to do? Wait I suppose. He is 67, and it isn't going to be fun trying to run the opposition frontbench with the likes of Burgon, Flynn and Lewis. if the members still really, really want to jump off this cliff, what can the MPs do? Try next year? His position is still deteriorating and isn't going to improve (partly because he is so inept).
And if Corbyn does resign, who do you think the PLP will be satisfied with as Leader? Certainly not Smith (far too left wing)
They weren't happy with either Brown or Miliband.
Would you be happy with anyone other than a disciple of Blair?
i think the world has changed in this regard, and that is old thinking.

So horrified are most of the PLP by Corbyn (as I am) that the loyalty to whoever succeeded him would be unimpeachable.

Firstly an attempt at being patronising without a clue about who could replace Corbyn.
Secondly utter bollocks. Whoever is elected, unless its someone like Liz Kendall, the likes of Ian Austin, Jess Phillips et al. will still brief the media. Why should they be inimpeachably loyal to the new leader when they weren't to the previous two.
Equally, if there is a successful "coup" why should people on the Left of the party be loyal to such a leader?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:16 pm

White powder found in the houses of Parliament? Nope, can't think of a joke...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:31 pm

Verso Books ‏@VersoBooks · 8h8 hours ago
Danny Dorling on Brexit stats: 59% of Leavers middle class, which constituted 2/3s of voters http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2761-br ... ed-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I keep seeing different figures for the breakdown on the Brexit vote. Is this one any more accurate?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:39 pm

I blame men over 5ft.8women over 5ft.5,and all with moustaches regardless.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:42 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Some I think thought that at a human level, a 67 year old wouldn't stand up to the enormous pressure put on him to quit.
And again with the ageism. I urge you to stop this. It is offensive, crass and deeply unhelpful.

I suspect that this is simply your view. If it happened to be the views of any in the PLP, that would be yet another reason to suggest that they were not suitable to represent the electorate in parliament.

He'll be nearly 71 by the time of the 2020 election. A normal politician might quit that far beyond retirement age. I was suggesting that it was a mistake to think he would. If that is considered ageist, so be it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:42 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... heartlands" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A budding progressive alliance wants to take back the Brexit heartlands

I find myself reluctantly agreeing that this is the way forward. Reluctant because it really requires PR - can we get it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:46 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Verso Books ‏@VersoBooks · 8h8 hours ago
Danny Dorling on Brexit stats: 59% of Leavers middle class, which constituted 2/3s of voters http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2761-br ... ed-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I keep seeing different figures for the breakdown on the Brexit vote. Is this one any more accurate?

I'm confused too.

One of the biggest talking points has been the way the referendum has split the country. Leave voters were
more likely to be older, rural, less skilled, not in work, and living in the regions; Remain voters were more
likely to be younger, urban, skilled, working and from a major city.

http://www.centreforcities.org/blog/bre ... uk-cities/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:48 pm

danesclose wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
danesclose wrote: And if Corbyn does resign, who do you think the PLP will be satisfied with as Leader? Certainly not Smith (far too left wing)
They weren't happy with either Brown or Miliband.
Would you be happy with anyone other than a disciple of Blair?
i think the world has changed in this regard, and that is old thinking.

So horrified are most of the PLP by Corbyn (as I am) that the loyalty to whoever succeeded him would be unimpeachable.
Firstly an attempt at being patronising without a clue about who could replace Corbyn.
Secondly utter bollocks. Whoever is elected, unless its someone like Liz Kendall, the likes of Ian Austin, Jess Phillips et al. will still brief the media. Why should they be inimpeachably loyal to the new leader when they weren't to the previous two.
Equally, if there is a successful "coup" why should people on the Left of the party be loyal to such a leader?

1. I have been pressed on the 'who' question repeatedly, to which my answer is 'almost anyone'. Benn, Jarvis, Watson, Eagle, Smith, Cooper, Starmer. I'd go for Cooper but I don't think the party will vote for a woman.

2. I can't prove a claim about the future of course, but I think the horror of Corbyn has changed attitudes.

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:49 pm

HindleA wrote:I blame men over 5ft.8women over 5ft.5,and all with moustaches regardless.

Thank goodness I'm not to blame!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:51 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
danesclose wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: i think the world has changed in this regard, and that is old thinking.

So horrified are most of the PLP by Corbyn (as I am) that the loyalty to whoever succeeded him would be unimpeachable.
Firstly an attempt at being patronising without a clue about who could replace Corbyn.
Secondly utter bollocks. Whoever is elected, unless its someone like Liz Kendall, the likes of Ian Austin, Jess Phillips et al. will still brief the media. Why should they be inimpeachably loyal to the new leader when they weren't to the previous two.
Equally, if there is a successful "coup" why should people on the Left of the party be loyal to such a leader?
1. I have been pressed on the 'who' question repeatedly, to which my answer is 'almost anyone'. Benn, Jarvis, Watson, Eagle, Smith, Cooper, Starmer. I'd go for Cooper but I don't think the party will vote for a woman.

2. I can't prove a claim about the future of course, but I think the horror of Corbyn has changed attitudes.

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

None of those you've named could organise a p*** up in a brewery. Or a coup.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:53 pm

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... o-lourdes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit ‘won’t affect pilgrimages to Lourdes’

Well that's a relief.
Who said I was only looking at the down side?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 2:53 pm

Careful,I haven't examined the votes of people according to initial letter of first names yet.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:05 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Some I think thought that at a human level, a 67 year old wouldn't stand up to the enormous pressure put on him to quit.
And again with the ageism. I urge you to stop this. It is offensive, crass and deeply unhelpful.

I suspect that this is simply your view. If it happened to be the views of any in the PLP, that would be yet another reason to suggest that they were not suitable to represent the electorate in parliament.

Governor of California, Jerry Brown, is 78 years old
Both men, Corbyn and Brown, progressive, left-wing, dedicating their lives to public service.
All the time both men spend in dry climates explain their healthy longevity and stamina.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:07 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ent-review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fairness and community values: how the unions brought the government to its knees
Van Badham
(Australia)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:09 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Verso Books ‏@VersoBooks · 8h8 hours ago
Danny Dorling on Brexit stats: 59% of Leavers middle class, which constituted 2/3s of voters http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2761-br ... ed-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I keep seeing different figures for the breakdown on the Brexit vote. Is this one any more accurate?

From the same link:

On the day of the EU referendum, data released from the ONS showed there had been 52 400 more deaths in the year to June
2015 compared with the year to June 2014. Death rates in England and Wales rose overall by 9%. The biggest increases were
among older adults and were unprecedented.

Good lord, that's awful.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:13 pm

Deleted a double post. Sorry, not 100% sure why this is happening. My mobile browser seems to re post things when it refreshes.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:17 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... o-lourdes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit ‘won’t affect pilgrimages to Lourdes’
Well that's a relief.
Who said I was only looking at the down side?

We're still on for our sojourn aren't we?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:19 pm

7 times the Labour MPs have tried to smear Corbyn and supporters this week

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adamfrankautho ... uche-2h2bx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #Chilcot

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:21 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Verso Books ‏@VersoBooks · 8h8 hours ago
Danny Dorling on Brexit stats: 59% of Leavers middle class, which constituted 2/3s of voters http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2761-br ... ed-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I keep seeing different figures for the breakdown on the Brexit vote. Is this one any more accurate?
I'm confused too.
One of the biggest talking points has been the way the referendum has split the country. Leave voters were
more likely to be older, rural, less skilled, not in work, and living in the regions; Remain voters were more
likely to be younger, urban, skilled, working and from a major city.

http://www.centreforcities.org/blog/bre ... uk-cities/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, hang on - apologies here - it's entirely possible to be less skilled and not in work and be middle-class - even aristocratic class. Happens all time.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:28 pm

: CmxKQSJXgAQSSUI.jpg (85.41 KiB) Viewed 6830 times

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: 3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:32 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
danesclose wrote: Firstly an attempt at being patronising without a clue about who could replace Corbyn.
Secondly utter bollocks. Whoever is elected, unless its someone like Liz Kendall, the likes of Ian Austin, Jess Phillips et al. will still brief the media. Why should they be inimpeachably loyal to the new leader when they weren't to the previous two.
Equally, if there is a successful "coup" why should people on the Left of the party be loyal to such a leader?
1. I have been pressed on the 'who' question repeatedly, to which my answer is 'almost anyone'. Benn, Jarvis, Watson, Eagle, Smith, Cooper, Starmer. I'd go for Cooper but I don't think the party will vote for a woman.

2. I can't prove a claim about the future of course, but I think the horror of Corbyn has changed attitudes.

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

1. Going through your list, what have any of them done to prove that they could lead the Labour party, let alone the country?
Benn - only got the nomination in the first place due to nepotism. Has hardly set the world alight either as a minister or shadow. And he'd have the audacity to appeal for loyalty, despite being fingered for slipping tit-bits of information to Laura K.
Jarvis pulled out last time due to a young family. Less than 2 years on are they sufficiently mature to be able to cope with their father as leader of the opposition or PM? Again what has he done to make anyone think he could cope with the job?
Watson - oh please! Due to his Brownite past he probably has more enemies in the Blairites than Corbyn
Eagle - Will she, won't she. Believe it or not, some decisions can't wait until Mars is in Aquarius, or whatever her latest excuse for not challenging Corbyn is.
Smith - an inexperienced Ed Miliband. Like Ed he'd have to put up with the constant disloyalty of the party
Cooper - I actually voted for her, but regretted it when she wouldn't work in the Shadow Cabinet for the good of the party. Also her husband regularly briefed against Miliband, so again, how could she expect loyalty from the PLP?
Starmer - been an MP for less than a year. Not even had a Shadow brief.

Your implication that the Labour party are misogynist is frankly below a serious political debate.

2. Of course you can't, neither can I. However I think that the past 10 years since Blair departed, and the attitude of his acolytes mean that I'm more likely to be correct over this than you.

3. I'd be happy if someone stood against Corbyn & beat him, that's democracy. I'd be even happier if all the members of the Labour party, and the PLP could unite behind that person, and the party could get on with doing what it should be doing, namely opposing this government & laying out an alternative. Unfortunately the PLP don't seem to give a shit about the people in this country.

As far as I can see, your attitude can really be summed up in 3 letters: "ABC".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:34 pm

Five stories buried by Brexit
Frances Ryan

1. Austerity policies breach the UK’s human rights obligations
2. Child poverty has spiked
3. Delayed state pension for hundreds of thousands of women
4. Children with mental health problems are being denied treatment
5. The DWP is delaying the release of benefit death reports (again)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -austerity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:34 pm

yahyah wrote:Leadsom says she'll hold a vote on fox hunting if she wins.

Makes me wish Cameron wasn't going. He wasn't in a hurry to bring back fox killing.
Brexit voters, what have you done ?

Actually he repeatedly promised a vote (and is a keen hunt person himself)

The reason one has never actually been held is that the pro-bloodsports lobby know they would have lost it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 3:38 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: 3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.
..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.