FlyTheNest

AAW - when you are queuing at the food bank with hungry kids, the notion of "a Labour party that's electable" doesn't mean much either.

The labour movement in this country began with the Industrial Revolution and the likes of the Tolpuddle martyrs - and it changed things.
It took another hundred years for the movement to become a bona fide political party; and during that time many other groups, including the Catholic church, campaigned for an end to child labour, better working conditions, limited hours, minimum wages, and other things.

The great British electorate made it very clear in both 2010 and 2015 that they do not trust any one party to represent them. We've had one hung parliament and now we have a parliament with a very small majority, we've had poor turn-outs and people don't trust politicians generally.
We have been lied to for a very long time by politicians of all parties - love him or loathe him, Corbyn looks and sounds different.

People are queuing at food banks because there has been a relentless attack on the incomes of the poor for decades. It's not just the Tories who are at fault here. They were given an open goal by the previous Labour government - the New Deal ramped up sanctions and brought in mandatory work programmes; it was Labour who brought in ESA and the Work Capability Assessment; yes, the Tories have made things much worse by inventing new crap like the bedroom tax etc. but they had a foundation to work from that was started before they assumed office.

Rachel Reeves was misquoted on occasion, but she had no intention of stopping the rot - she did not listen to experts, to charities, to activist groups; she said she would "reform" the WCA without supplying any detail and she didn't have a lot to say on sanctions, and the reason for that is because it was Labour policy too. Labour policy is pro Universal Credit, pro PIP, pro benefit cap, and woolly about everything else with the notable exception of the bedroom tax - that's good, but it's only one part of what has been a multi-pronged assault on the poor and vulnerable.

You are right in that a movement means nothing when you are starving and threatened with homelessness - but neither does a carey-sharey soundbite with no detail. Labour had their Your Britain website, where members were invited to submit policy ideas for discussion - and they did, in their hundreds, only to be ignored. When people who want to work with the party get treated like that, no wonder they drift away.
Combine all that with the arrogance of the PLP in refusing to work with the leader the members want, the obviously orchestrated resignations and complaints (now emanating from them on a daily basis), plus the shenanigans at the NEC, and you have a heirarchy out of touch.

Corbyn offers hope - and that is a very powerful thing when you have nothing. Smith seems to be offering something similar policy-wise, but his refusal to work with Corbyn if Corbyn wins suggests to me that he's not as committed to change as he claims. He is no more "electable" than Corbyn or Miliband and Brown before him. It would be interesting to have a PR vote and see how they get on then - if we did, there would have to be a concerted effort to work in partnership with other parties in order to govern, and that would be no bad thing; but as we have FPTP, the chances are that Labour will not do well under most circumstances anyway, partly because of how our system works, and partly because Labour is in chaos and no one person can be blamed for that.

If I was a member and reliant on a food bank, I'd vote for hope. Despair is more of the same, IMHO.

Maybe for some living the dream of feeling strong is preferable to having to face cold reality ?
Reality means dealing with what is actually happening and having to compromise.

The idea of a Labour party as a broad church seems barely possible anymore.
There won't be any winners, we'll all lose in the battle for ideological purity, those who need a Labour government most of all.

Sorry Ephie, your post came as I was writing mine, it is not a rebuff of yours, but a response to Angry's.

Did you hear what Owen said yesterday ?
About having an elected Shadow Cabinet of Labour members, and other ways he intends to change, if he wins the vote, the current impasse and address the issue of the membership feeling unheard.
Also his plans re conference decisions ?

If I was in dire straits I wouldn't want the hope of a better future, I'd want something better now, not the hope that the Tories might one day lose an election. That 'better' may not be the perfect full package, the dream that Corbyn offers, the dream I fell sway to last year, but it is better than nothing which is what they will have if, as is likely, the electorate don't buy the dream of hope and a mass movement.

But that's just my opinion, and why I will be voting for Smith this time around. Dreams take a long time to become real, I'm 60 and don't want to end my days under endless Tory or Tory/Ukip governments.
Hearing Smith yesterday made me feel he has the energy and the will to try and improve things, for the party, members, those who rely on food banks, and those who are more fortunate.
We need to keep the latter on board to help people who really need support.

Edited to add: that's my opinion, other opinions are available, so please shop around

Have been trying to find a video link of the whole of Owen's speech yesterday.
The one on Wales Online doesn't work.

http://labourlist.org/2016/08/smith-pro ... ew-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For heavens sake, its not a stark dichotomy between trying to win elections and building up a wider movement.

People (on both sides) who think that it is are part of the problem.

Owen - "We need to listen to the members".

Yes. And what they said last year, by a stonking majority, is that they wanted Corbyn for leader.

This is the problem - the members spoke, and the heirarchy didn't listen. They're not listening now.

And now there are murmurings from Labour MPs that Smith's policies are too left wing; Smith has vowed he won't backtrack on those policies - so just like Corbyn, Miliband, and Brown, he's not going to get the support he needs from inside his own party.

It doesn't matter who wins any more. Neither will suit the people who are too craven to stand themselves, yet insist X is wrong, Y is wrong, and as we all know the perfect Z simply doesn't exist.

I give up. Whoever you all decide to vote for, I hope you get your wish. Some of you are going to be disappointed one way or another.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:For heavens sake, its not a stark dichotomy between trying to win elections and building up a wider movement.

People (on both sides) who think that it is are part of the problem.

Maybe we should all leave and left the sensible folk like you take care of it.
Unfortunately in general elections even us eejits get a vote.

pala wrote:https://reflectionsofayounglefty.wordpr ... ith-event/

If people want razz and noise, electricity and excitment, and sharing stories, then Jez's your man it seems.
That's not for everyone and some would say it isn't all that politics is about
If it is then Trump is a genius and should win hands down. He inspires hope in his followers, something to be alarmed about.

One of the things that made me warm to Owen yesterday was precisely because he didn't perform in an Elmer Gantry type atmosphere.

yahyah wrote:

AnatolyKasparov wrote:For heavens sake, its not a stark dichotomy between trying to win elections and building up a wider movement.

People (on both sides) who think that it is are part of the problem.

Maybe we should all leave and left the sensible folk like you take care of it.
Unfortunately in general elections even us eejits get a vote.

Well, thanks. I thought you might agree with such an even handed sentiment anyway

Tongue in cheek Anatoly, along with Marmite and toast.

Francis Bacon [the original, not the artist]:
''Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper''

Scientists for Labour membership endorses Owen Smith's leadership bid

The results of our Labour Leader survey were as follows:

Owen Smith 53% of all respondents (41% of all members)
Jeremy Corbyn 21% of all respondents (16% of all members)
No endorsement 25% of all respondents (20% of all members)

http://www.scientistsforlabour.org.uk/e ... Itemid=140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you seen anything about Stephen Hawking's view on the leadership PK ?

He is pootling about in my Simpson Tapped Out game,so he is quite busy.

Let the poor man out A.

He enjoying himself,being a DJ,after sky rocket exploration of City.

Sorry yahyah but no, not seen any comment at all.

Owen Smith opposes Article 50 move without a vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ght-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Labour party should continue to campaign against Britain’s exit from the European Union and a public vote should be held on the terms of any replacement trade deal before article 50 is invoked, Owen Smith has said.

Michael White
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... today-test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

May not be around much, not flouncing, but my blood pressure readings are very high again, so am concentrating on my artistic endeavour which is going really well. Making my brain have to work too which is somewhat exhausting.
Will be seeing the GP next week for her review. Can't believe a month has flown by since my last check up.

yahyah wrote:Michael White
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... today-test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

May not be around much, not flouncing, but my blood pressure readings are very high again, so am concentrating on my artistic endeavour which is going really well. Making my brain have to work too which is somewhat exhausting.
Will be seeing the GP next week for her review. Can't believe a month has flown by since my last check up.

Good luck with the checkup.

All the best, yahyah.

Owen Smith interview (long)
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... pretty-red" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... youth-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Owen Smith will make a bold pitch for young voters with a raft of youth-centred policies including the abolition of university tuition fees and a scheme to build starter homes reserved for people aged under 30.

Mike Smithson@
Been given sight of spreadsheet from part of Owen Smith operation suggesting that race is tightening.


That could mean anything of course.

We need a proper poll, dammit!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 17111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour must take a strong pro-immigration stance even if it means shedding votes to Ukip, leadership contender Owen Smith has said.

Speaking to The Independent the Labour MP said that his party needs to be positive on immigration regardless of whether it leads to “electoral damage”.

His unequivocal position will unnerve Labour MPs whose constituents overwhelmingly backed Brexit following a Leave campaign built on blocking further EU immigration.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:We need a proper poll, dammit!

And now we have one, though maybe not what Smith was hoping for......

(I agree it could have been worse, though)

It's actually better than it could have been.
Also 8% of those polled are 'don't knows', the % lead figures are with the 'don't knows' taken out, and presume usual margin of error applies. So it may be a little closer on the day.

Have lost the bit of enthusiasm I mustered for Smith the other week. Don't regret voting for him though as there has been precious little evidence of how things will be any any different if Corbyn wins again.
In fact, if his mandate is bigger than last year, he and his inner circle will be unlikely to try and work differently. As to how the voters can be brought on board...

yahyah wrote:It's actually better than it could have been.
Also 8% of those polled are 'don't knows', the % lead figures are with the 'don't knows' taken out, and presume usual margin of error applies. So it may be a little closer on the day.

Have lost the bit of enthusiasm I mustered for Smith the other week. Don't regret voting for him though as there has been precious little evidence of how things will be any any different if Corbyn wins again.
In fact, if his mandate is bigger than last year, he and his inner circle will be unlikely to try and work differently. As to how the voters can be brought on board...

What has caused the waning of your support yahyah, if you don't mind me asking? As to the voters, well... Indeed.

Do you mean my waning on Smith Stephen ?
You must do as my disenchantment for Corbyn after voting for him last year has been a sore point for many on FTN.

It went along the lines of:
Had been feeling let down by Corbyn in the last six months, and tried to swallow it down.
Felt angry at the initial 'coup', the sheer incompetency of Eagle's shennanigans, and felt even though I was unhappy with Corbyn's leadership skills I couldn't vote for Eagle.

I knew Smith from the Welsh press, and had liked a piece he had written for the Welsh press for the 2015 election, about the vision he had. Also know he isn't, despite all the twollop his detractors come out with, an arch-Blairite.

When he launched his manifesto the other week there was a lot I liked, and the way he put it across was appealing.
Am finding all the adulation and rallies around Corbyn rather off putting, all a bit X Factor and silly, so that was another plus.

But Smith seems to put his foot in it sometimes, things he says can be misconstrued.
But so does Corbyn ! It has been hard to avoid the sheer weight of nasty lies and attacks on Smith on Twitter & on Cif. I think OhSoCynical's awful onslaught against Smith made me feel I had to defend him because a lot of it was rot, that sort of sloganised crap that gets sent round Facebook. So was trying to play devil's advocate, pointing out the lies or misinformation.

Then it made me look at him more seriously, I knew I thought Corbyn will be a disaster if he gets re-elected so that meant voting for Smith. Which I did, and donated to his campaign.
Really it was a sense of anyone but Corbyn for me. But that was the problem last year as well, I ended up voting for Corbyn because it was 'none of the others thanks'.

Also, am finding that I am going back to my middle-period stance, which was ''a plague on both factions'', but with more animus against the Corbyn camp because of some of the people who support him so vociferously.

Think I am doing what Gwyneth Paltrow called 'conscious uncoupling' with the Labour party.
I don't want it to be a Momentum/Green type party. Don't want it to be back to Blair either.

Sorry, that's rather a long reply.

yahyah wrote:Do you mean my waning on Smith Stephen ?
You must do as my disenchantment for Corbyn after voting for him last year has been a sore point for many on FTN.

It went along the lines of:
Had been feeling let down by Corbyn in the last six months, and tried to swallow it down.
Felt angry at the initial 'coup', the sheer incompetency of Eagle's shennanigans, and felt even though I was unhappy with Corbyn's leadership skills I couldn't vote for Eagle.

I knew Smith from the Welsh press, and had liked a piece he had written for the Welsh press for the 2015 election, about the vision he had. Also know he isn't, despite all the twollop his detractors come out with, an arch-Blairite.

When he launched his manifesto the other week there was a lot I liked, and the way he put it across was appealing.
Am finding all the adulation and rallies around Corbyn rather off putting, all a bit X Factor and silly, so that was another plus.

But Smith seems to put his foot in it sometimes, things he says can be misconstrued.
But so does Corbyn ! It has been hard to avoid the sheer weight of nasty lies and attacks on Smith on Twitter & on Cif. I think OhSoCynical's awful onslaught against Smith made me feel I had to defend him because a lot of it was rot, that sort of sloganised crap that gets sent round Facebook. So was trying to play devil's advocate, pointing out the lies or misinformation.

Then it made me look at him more seriously, I knew I thought Corbyn will be a disaster if he gets re-elected so that meant voting for Smith. Which I did, and donated to his campaign.
Really it was a sense of anyone but Corbyn for me. But that was the problem last year as well, I ended up voting for Corbyn because it was 'none of the others thanks'.

Also, am finding that I am going back to my middle-period stance, which was ''a plague on both factions'', but with more animus against the Corbyn camp because of some of the people who support him so vociferously.

Think I am doing what Gwyneth Paltrow called 'conscious uncoupling' with the Labour party.
I don't want it to be a Momentum/Green type party. Don't want it to be back to Blair either.

Sorry, that's rather a long reply.

I'm disappointed that there's only the two of them given the voting preference format. A chance for other viewpoints and ideas put forward. I realise that there's a perceived need within the PLP to show a united front against Corbyn but it's not exactly 'grown-up'. It's more about what happens immediately after that I'm interested in. Smith has emphasised his role in Conservative policy changes, I'd like to think this would happen again with him as a shadow minister if he lost.
I realise I've derailed the thread, but hey, that's life.

You haven't derailed it. I agree totally. There should have been a wider range of candidates.
Making it a straight Corbyn/other battle has been counterproductive and probably just entrenched his support even further.

I blame Cameron ! If we hadn't had the EU referendum, if Brexit hadn't won, the challenge against Corbyn may have been a bit more thought through. All that chaos after 23rd June didn't help.

yahyah wrote:You haven't derailed it. I agree totally. There should have been a wider range of candidates.
Making it a straight Corbyn/other battle has been counterproductive and probably just entrenched his support even further.

I blame Cameron ! If we hadn't had the EU referendum, if Brexit hadn't won, the challenge against Corbyn may have been a bit more thought through. All that chaos after 23rd June didn't help.

I think you're right about entrenchment, I don't suppose it's practical to insist there should always be at least 3 candidates, but i think it would work better, it would also allow actual debate of policy direction which seems to have been avoided, instead mainly concentrating on personality and nebulous 'leadership qualities'.

......

pala wrote:......

Unable to read it, what does it say?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/don-bri ... 63598.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More about the YouGov poll, and why it may not be accurate.

Sorry - haven't been able to delete my posts as I wanted so just removed the text.
If the mods are around please could you vanish them ?

No point in trying to point out inconsistencies or hypocrisy as previous experience shows.
One was from a Labour councillor, she seems to have deleted her tweet this morning.
Maybe she realised that re-tweeting accusations that one of the candidates was ''pawing'' women for being photographed with his arms atop the shoulders of two of his supporters may be not be wise.

Both pics are fine by me! Picky partisan people practicing pointless pickiness.

Try saying that after a tube of wine gums Stephen !

I agree, both are fine, it's just hypocritical to accuse one of 'pawing' when his hands are in a much more neutral zone than the other one when he was pictured. Trying to demonise one to boost the other is counterproductive in helping issues for women. The Labour councillor who retweeted the accusations of pawing should know better. Same with the ''Women for XXX''. Why is the 'women for' label for one candidate sexist and not the other. Can women not choose who they support and what they call their support group ?

It's my fault, have had a great few days avoiding that sort of rubbish so why did I start reading it this morning ? Never learn.

yahyah wrote:Try saying that after a tube of wine gums Stephen !

I agree, both are fine, it's just hypocritical to accuse one of 'pawing' when his hands are in a much more neutral zone than the other one when he was pictured. Trying to demonise one to boost the other is counterproductive in helping issues for women. The Labour councillor who retweeted the accusations of pawing should know better. Same with the ''Women for XXX''. Why is the 'women for' label for one candidate sexist and not the other. Can women not choose who they support and what they call their support group ?

It's my fault, have had a great few days avoiding that sort of rubbish so why did I start reading it this morning ? Never learn.

Psychological need to observe what we know we won't like. That sums up my posting life

StephenDolan wrote:

pala wrote:......

Unable to read it, what does it say?

Yes, I can't read it either!

Btw yahyah, you *can* delete your own posts - tick the box at the top of the "edit post" page.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:

StephenDolan wrote:

pala wrote:......

Unable to read it, what does it say?

Yes, I can't read it either!

Btw yahyah, you *can* delete your own posts - tick the box at the top of the "edit post" page.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:

StephenDolan wrote:

pala wrote:......

Unable to read it, what does it say?

Yes, I can't read it either!

Btw yahyah, you *can* delete your own posts - tick the box at the top of the "edit post" page.

I know, and I do. But the little box didn't appear to be there this morning.
Or now, so can't do it. It is on this post though. Odd.

Shame we can't scrap both candidates and just start again.
I can't be the only person who feels more and more like they haven't got a horse in this race.

Apologies, but Smith's "Corbyn wants to reopen the mines" line grates somewhat, given that he doesn't include the qualification provided by Corbyn that this depends upon viable carbon capture technology.

It has echoes of the Mandelson / filthy rich line trotted out by those of the Tory persuasion.

yahyah wrote:Shame we can't scrap both candidates and just start again.
I can't be the only person who feels more and more like they haven't got a horse in this race.

More the merrier. Wasn't that the whole point of the 2015 process, broaden the debate? Far too much powder being kept dry for 2017 and beyond.

http://labourlist.org/2016/09/labour-ha ... rbynistas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the full text of the speech given by Owen Smith at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers today.