Wednesday 9th November 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:05 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
adam wrote:Don't know what's on page one of today but whatever it is my work filter blocks it because of 'intolerance'.
Someone mentioned The Simpsons.
The reference to p**** grabbing perhaps? If adam can no longer read this page then it's that

Sorry, that was me. I'll go back and change it to kitten-fondling !

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Tory George Freeman:

Number 10 policymakers are already viewing the result through the same prism as Brexit. The head of the No 10 policy board, George Freeman, tweeted: “at its heart this is about a broken contract through the failure of globalised market economics to serve the interests of domestic workers.”

He said the result was “a stunning demonstration of how disempowered low income Americans feel by Washington politics and globalisation”. “The insurgency is a big test for the constitutional protections for liberty and democracy in the UK and the US. It is clear we are living through a genuine crisis of legitimacy sweeping through western political economy”.
Note how this is already being spun: politics and globalisation. Not disdain and avarice. It's the 'elite' that are wrong, not what made them the 'elite' in the first place. Say goodbye to one elite, say hello to the next one America, because you've just been conned.

Corbyn is saying something not totally dissimilar, tbf.

Of course, he and Freeman will have somewhat different remedies. That is what politics is and should be about, at the end of the day.

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:13 pm

yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote: Someone mentioned The Simpsons.
The reference to pussy grabbing perhaps? If adam can no longer read this page then it's that
Sorry, that was me. I'll go back and change it to kitten-fondling !

It's not the kitten fondling.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:21 pm

adam wrote:
yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: The reference to pussy grabbing perhaps? If adam can no longer read this page then it's that
Sorry, that was me. I'll go back and change it to kitten-fondling !
It's not the kitten fondling.

Perhaps it's because both KKK and Ku Klux Klan are referenced?

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:23 pm

Womble44 wrote:
adam wrote:
yahyah wrote: Sorry, that was me. I'll go back and change it to kitten-fondling !
It's not the kitten fondling.
Perhaps it's because both KKK and Ku Klux Klan are referenced?

We are in the slightly strange situation where if anybody gets it right, I won't be able to tell you. Well I will, but not until tonight. It's not the ghosts of the confederate dead, no.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:31 pm

Maybe you could message whoever's post it is and tell them so they can edit it ?

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:37 pm

Ha! So, using the quick reply box at the bottom of page 3, I can say that whilst this is deeply deeply insignificant and meaningless, whatever is hitting my work filter is something on Page 1 and Page 4 of today but not on Page 2 or Page 3.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:51 pm

I don't like extremists.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:55 pm

Today's the anniversary of Kristallnacht

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 1:58 pm

Scientists for EU@
Important to note that Trump's victory was not about the 'little people' rising up v. elites.
The poorest backed Hillary. It was ideological.

As you'd expect from scientists they back up their claim.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw0OMSNWIAAWwZJ.jpg:large" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:01 pm

14:15 - 15:00 today on radio 4
Drama
Michael & Boris: The Two Brexiteers

Might be worth a listen

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:03 pm

It must be a comedy, so hopefully good for a cheer up.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:11 pm

It is up to all of us to shape the world we live in

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/ ... ld-we-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By Richard Branson

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:16 pm

Have seen the word nativism a couple of times today. Is that a polite word for racism ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:19 pm

yahyah wrote:Have seen the word nativism a couple of times today. Is that a polite word for racism ?

Nativism is the political position of supporting a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation (i.e. self-identified citizens) as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:21 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
yahyah wrote:Have seen the word nativism a couple of times today. Is that a polite word for racism ?
Nativism is the political position of supporting a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation (i.e. self-identified citizens) as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Like Plaid Cymru favour in local communities ? Planning permission and employment opportunities etc to be granted to Welsh speakers not monoglots who speak English ?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:31 pm

I'm hoping that there's a positive side to both the Brexit vote, and waking up to find the U.S.A has been tangoed.
Both results are credited to large numbers, fed up with their current situation & voting for what's offered as being a chance for change. They may have voted for extreme policies, but what they actually want is hope & positive improvements.
If/when in the next few years, they start to feel let down, then there's a chance for more realistic & positive policies to be offered by others.
In this country, there was a lot of promises & lies made to win the brexit vote, Labour could be for now, championing these to show the Government's failure (more money for NHS, most obvious), the 'peoples will' is a fickle thing.
Don't know about Trump, I suspect most of what he says is just a lever to get into power and the actual policies will come from elsewhere. Possibly his main similarity with Reagan is his acting ability.
Hmm, Not sure if this is any reason for hope

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:35 pm

tinybgoat wrote:I'm hoping that there's a positive side to both the Brexit vote, and waking up to find the U.S.A has been tangoed.
Both results are credited to large numbers, fed up with their current situation & voting for what's offered as being a chance for change. They may have voted for extreme policies, but what they actually want is hope & positive improvements.
If/when in the next few years, they start to feel let down, then there's a chance for more realistic & positive policies to be offered by others.
In this country, there was a lot of promises & lies made to win the brexit vote, Labour could be for now, championing these to show the Government's failure (more money for NHS, most obvious), the 'peoples will' is a fickle thing.
Don't know about Trump, I suspect most of what he says is just a lever to get into power and the actual policies will come from elsewhere. Possibly his main similarity with Reagan is his acting ability.
Hmm, Not sure if this is any reason for hope

Yes democracy speaks in strange ways. But we should listen.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 2:54 pm

Ooh this is good

https://samkriss.com/2016/11/09/how-you-lost-the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how-you-lost-the-world

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 3:18 pm

I don't follow US politics much these days but the US can't be ignored. If not the most powerful nation in the world at this time,
it's one of the top three. Yesterday, I wrote if Trump won, I'd spend the rest of my life denying it happened. I saw the headlines
this morning. I was genuinely shocked, part of me wanted to check out of reality, too much sorrow. I must accept what I can't change.

I'm writing this to everyone in the world in the only language I'm fluent in. Let's be good to one another, please, because it's the only
place we'll experience it. Goodness won't happen unless we cultivate and give it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 3:20 pm

jesus this is awful

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 3:26 pm

One for Roger. Are these consultancy fees 'normal'?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 15-16.xlsx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 3:30 pm

citizenJA wrote:jesus this is awful

Have a hug

things can only get better

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 3:56 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Ooh this is good

https://samkriss.com/2016/11/09/how-you-lost-the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how-you-lost-the-world

No, I don't agree.

"And then she lost. Despite it all, the vast monumental horror of a Trump presidency, it’s hard not to feel a little twinge of satisfaction
as Hillary Clinton is denied the only thing she ever wanted and which she never deserved. Trump has promised to send her to prison.
Good. It’d be for all the wrong reasons, but her crimes are many, and losing a general election to an overgrown baby should absolutely
carry a long minimum sentence. Let her rot."

I don't hate Clinton. The author of the piece does. I can live without capitalism and I'm interested in the 'radical left'
the author wants but hasn't found. There's nothing inspiring good, creative, political alternatives in the article.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:00 pm

File under yet more terrible headline writing, this time in the Indy:

Bedroom tax appeal ruling: Supreme Court says Government acted unlawfully towards disabled campaigners - The Independent
https://apple.news/AC5wztDzrTaesurZMI64dVg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're not disabled 'campaigners'. They're just disabled families that this government has bullied via the Bedroom Tax and courts. That is, 'ordinary' people in the vernacular of the day.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:01 pm

PS. Irking me because it makes them sound like the aggressors, not the victims.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:07 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Ooh this is good

https://samkriss.com/2016/11/09/how-you-lost-the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how-you-lost-the-world
No, I don't agree.
"And then she lost. Despite it all, the vast monumental horror of a Trump presidency, it’s hard not to feel a little twinge of satisfaction
as Hillary Clinton is denied the only thing she ever wanted and which she never deserved. Trump has promised to send her to prison.
Good. It’d be for all the wrong reasons, but her crimes are many, and losing a general election to an overgrown baby should absolutely
carry a long minimum sentence. Let her rot."
I don't hate Clinton. The author of the piece does. I can live without capitalism and I'm interested in the 'radical left'
the author wants but hasn't found. There's nothing inspiring good, creative, political alternatives in the article.

Agree with you JA. This unbridled anger, from wherever it comes is destructive.

''Let her rot'' that kind of dehumanising of a political opponent is as bad as the hate speak Trump and his supporters peddle.

It's this kind of nihilism that is making the mess we're in worse not better.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:09 pm

The last paragraph is good.

Donald Trump is a fascist. We shouldn’t be afraid of the word: it’s simple and accurate, and his fascism is hardly unique; it’s just a suppurating outgrowth of the fascism that was already there. Still, this time it’s different. The fascisms of Europe in the 1920s and 30s, or east Asia in the 50s and 60s, or Latin America in the 70s and 80s were all the response of a capitalist order to the terrifying potency of an organised working class. Fascism is what capitalism does when it’s under threat, something always latent but extending in claws when it’s time to fight; it imitates mass movements while never really having the support of the masses. (In Germany, for instance, support for the Nazis was highest among the industrial haute bourgeoisie, and declined through every social stratum; look at Trump’s share of the voter per income band and see the same pattern. The workers didn’t vote for Trump, they just didn’t vote for Clinton either.) But today the organised working class is nowhere to be found. There’s no coherent left-wing movement actively endangering capitalism; the crisis facing the liberal-capitalist order is entirely internal. It’s grinding against its own contradictions, circling the globe to turn back against itself, smashing through its biological and ecological limits and finding nothing on the other side. This is the death spasm, a truly nihilist fascism, the fascism of a global system prickling for enemies to destroy but charging only against itself. There’s no silence in the final and total victory, just an endless war with only one side. It’s not entirely the case, as the slogan puts it, that the only thing capable of defeating the radical right is a radical left. The radical right will defeat itself, sooner or later, even if it’s at the cost of a few tens of millions of lives. We need a radical left so there can be any kind of fight at all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:11 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Ooh this is good

https://samkriss.com/2016/11/09/how-you-lost-the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how-you-lost-the-world
No, I don't agree.
"And then she lost. Despite it all, the vast monumental horror of a Trump presidency, it’s hard not to feel a little twinge of satisfaction
as Hillary Clinton is denied the only thing she ever wanted and which she never deserved. Trump has promised to send her to prison.
Good. It’d be for all the wrong reasons, but her crimes are many, and losing a general election to an overgrown baby should absolutely
carry a long minimum sentence. Let her rot."
I don't hate Clinton. The author of the piece does. I can live without capitalism and I'm interested in the 'radical left'
the author wants but hasn't found. There's nothing inspiring good, creative, political alternatives in the article.

I took this more figuratively really, rather than as a visceral hatred of Clinton. It's more what she represents - the centre left version of neo-liberalism that seems to have had its time.

We are all desperate for that good, creative, political alternative. I don't think Corbyn fits the bill, but is currently filling that space in England. What we and the US have in common are versions of FPTP. Perhaps that system's time is really up. Indeed in the popular vote the US is split almost precisely down the middle, which is as unhelpful as it gets and reminiscent of Brexit.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:13 pm

So is this one:

Hillary Clinton had nothing to offer people; all she could give them was fear and herself. Her campaign was the most cack-handed and disastrous in recent decades, managed by a gang of simpering imbeciles pretending to be Machiavellian strategists; it was all on the flimsy depthless level of TV.

Miliband (D), Cooper, Kendall and the likes of McTernan et al could equally be described thus.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:21 pm

The global internet reacts to America's election surprise: #JeSuisUSA - the guardian
https://apple.news/AXxg9EvEaScSC_t6SeDUDuA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like this one:

#Michelle2020
Make America Safe Again.

Possibly the most damning comment though is the the first one from North Korea. Difficult to argue against...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:23 pm

Burying bad news pt.5:

European Commission slashes UK 2017 growth forecast in half due to Brexit - The Independent
https://apple.news/ALKuAEQAMQdu_Oeb-Ww9SRQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:33 pm

'A revolting slug': what politicians said before Trump got elected - the guardian
https://apple.news/ACBY_FHezRuaTMexBxpM1Wg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If they had any balls, they'd keep saying it now.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:35 pm

The SNP MP Gavin Newlands may not be a major global player, but is also likely to be off the Trump Christmas card list. He told MPs: “Let’s be clear, Donald Trump is an idiot. I have tried to find different, perhaps more parliamentary adjectives to describe him but none was clear enough. He is an idiot.”

Yup.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:35 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:So is this one:

Hillary Clinton had nothing to offer people; all she could give them was fear and herself. Her campaign was the most cack-handed and disastrous in recent decades, managed by a gang of simpering imbeciles pretending to be Machiavellian strategists; it was all on the flimsy depthless level of TV.
Miliband (D), Cooper, Kendall and the likes of McTernan et al could equally be described thus.

Time to ceremonially burn all those West Wing box sets, perhaps.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:36 pm

Cuba to launch military exercises to prepare for ‘range of enemy actions’ - the guardian
https://apple.news/ASsiDKmjNQJWmbmdbvQMmLQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And who can blame them?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:36 pm

Afternoon all.

Been a little tied up getting my thesis resubmitted and Wrestling with MS Word on page numbers in different sections of a document. let's just say I don't want to have to do this ever again.

Now...what's been happening - have I missed anything?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:41 pm

Not solely related to politics: this is very interesting from a history perspective on the way media, typography and imagery has changed over time in the NYT. The politics has been as duplicitous and grubby throughout btw:

New York Times Election Front Pages, 1852–2012
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... chive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:42 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Not solely related to politics: this is very interesting from a history perspective on the way media, typography and imagery has changed over time in the NYT. The politics has been as duplicitous and grubby throughout btw:

New York Times Election Front Pages, 1852–2012
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... chive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh yes, always worth reminding ourselves that there is very little new under the sun

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:46 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:... Wrestling with MS Word ... let's just say I don't want to have to do this ever again.

I hear you. Word is a tool that everyone has to use at some point in their computing life that has remained mindbogglingly awful throughout its long life in Microsoft's hands. It still amazes me just how cacktastic Word's Styles system is after multiple different versions.

I try to avoid it like the plague. My own thesis is the reason why.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Not solely related to politics: this is very interesting from a history perspective on the way media, typography and imagery has changed over time in the NYT. The politics has been as duplicitous and grubby throughout btw:

New York Times Election Front Pages, 1852–2012
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... chive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh yes, always worth reminding ourselves that there is very little new under the sun

It's also quite astonishing just how old fashioned the NYT still looks even today. I mean, more space for words than images on the front page... the mere thought of it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:53 pm

gilsey wrote:The last paragraph is good.
Donald Trump is a fascist. We shouldn’t be afraid of the word: it’s simple and accurate, and his fascism is hardly unique; it’s just a suppurating outgrowth of the fascism that was already there. Still, this time it’s different. The fascisms of Europe in the 1920s and 30s, or east Asia in the 50s and 60s, or Latin America in the 70s and 80s were all the response of a capitalist order to the terrifying potency of an organised working class. Fascism is what capitalism does when it’s under threat, something always latent but extending in claws when it’s time to fight; it imitates mass movements while never really having the support of the masses. (In Germany, for instance, support for the Nazis was highest among the industrial haute bourgeoisie, and declined through every social stratum; look at Trump’s share of the voter per income band and see the same pattern. The workers didn’t vote for Trump, they just didn’t vote for Clinton either.) But today the organised working class is nowhere to be found. There’s no coherent left-wing movement actively endangering capitalism; the crisis facing the liberal-capitalist order is entirely internal. It’s grinding against its own contradictions, circling the globe to turn back against itself, smashing through its biological and ecological limits and finding nothing on the other side. This is the death spasm, a truly nihilist fascism, the fascism of a global system prickling for enemies to destroy but charging only against itself. There’s no silence in the final and total victory, just an endless war with only one side. It’s not entirely the case, as the slogan puts it, that the only thing capable of defeating the radical right is a radical left. The radical right will defeat itself, sooner or later, even if it’s at the cost of a few tens of millions of lives. We need a radical left so there can be any kind of fight at all.

That's right.
That's because of the kind of fights we get here on FTN and in the real world. The left fights amongst itself.
Always has. Spend their time telling each other to ''rot in hell'' and suchlike.

I don't agree that the only thing capable of defeating the radical right is the radical right.

It requires people from all parts of the political spectrum. Not just the radical left.

Richard Branson, despite what we may think of him, showed that he opposes it in the piece Angry linked earlier.
Archbishop Welby shows he opposes it by saying he is praying for Trump to develop wisdom and grace.
People from the centre, centre left, centre right - as shown by some Tories showing their anti-Trump feelings, all have a place in helping defeat the radical left.

I've been reading about Italy during Mussolini's rise. The left spent more time sitting around arguing about things like whether or not the 'bourgeois' should be allowed any role in the struggle than providing a front against fascism. Sounds familiar ?

That's not an attack on you personally Gilsey, just my opinion.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:55 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I don't like extremists.

I quite understand that, and despite our differences I find much of the "new" politics rather unnerving as well.

But what has happened in the last few years has happened for reasons.

The "liberal centre" became too snugly secure, too convinced of its own essential correctness (in both practical and moral terms) too ready to dismiss all who were losing out.

People have always pushed back against that sort of thing in the past, and they have done so now.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:56 pm

Smith & Wesson stocks dive as Trump victory eases gun control fears - the guardian
https://apple.news/A-YL81gKlSZ6ifTAT_-QFBA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sales had risen amid concerns that guns would be harder to obtain if tougher controls were enacted, but Trump’s victory looks likely to weaken demand

Somewhat ironic.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 4:58 pm

US markets react calmly to Trump victory after volatile night - the guardian
https://apple.news/Aa9M2NgSJQtacfGHXiyDdHg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The long and short of it: traders don't believe that Trump is going to be as insane as he has sounded. I think this phase is what is termed as 'denial'.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:02 pm

yahyah wrote:The left spent more time sitting around arguing about things like whether or not the 'bourgeois' should be allowed any role in the struggle than providing a front against fascism. Sounds familiar ?

Given that's basically what most people here have been saying since the first Labour leadership election, yes. Corbyn won. There's a reason why he won. Listen to it. Digest it. Reflect on it. Then let him get on with it and he either wins or loses on his own terms. But, PLP.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:12 pm

Actually it goes back further than Jez.

2010 when EM "surprisingly" beat his brother is the real fault line in many respects (no coincidence, btw, that many of his detractors within the party have long been utterly infatuated with Clinton-style "centrism" - even to the point of possessing those infamous WW box sets I referred to above) His tentative, gradualist attempts to chart a post-2008 path for the party were obstructed and derided every step of the way - aided by cynical media cheerleaders (including, lets not forget, many senior people at the Graun) When he finally lost last year, these people wasted no time in dancing on his grave - "LURCH TO THE LEFT/INSANE ANTI-BUSINESS MARXISM" and so on and so forth. They believed they had "their" party back.

Indeed, so sure of that were they that they imagined the poor could be chucked under the bus without consequences (cf the welfare vote)

The rest, of course, is history.....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:15 pm

That's a deal as long as anyone who didn't vote for Corbyn this time around isn't accused of supporting murderers or being Blairites etc.

I thought Corbyn's response to the POTUS result on tv news was good, if a little low key, but when he said that Trump's campaign had been 'nasty and divisive' I wondered how he could do that with a straight face after the vitriol and lies some of his own supporters unleashed against Smith for daring to think he might make a better leader.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:19 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Actually it goes back further than Jez.

2010 when EM "surprisingly" beat his brother is the real fault line in many respects (no coincidence, btw, that many of his detractors within the party have long been utterly infatuated with Clinton-style "centrism" - even to the point of possessing those infamous WW box sets I referred to above) His tentative, gradualist attempts to chart a post-2008 path for the party were obstructed and derided every step of the way - aided by cynical media cheerleaders (including, lets not forget, many senior people at the Graun) When he finally lost last year, these people wasted no time in dancing on his grave - "LURCH TO THE LEFT/INSANE MARXISM" and so on and so forth. They believe they had "their" party back.

Indeed, so sure of that were they that they imagined the poor could be chucked under the bus without consequences (cf the welfare vote)

The rest, of course, is history.....

Blimey, does owning boxed sets make you politically beyond the pale these days ?
We had The Wire, didn't mean I intended to go to Baltimore and become a female StringofBells.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:22 pm

and Ed wasn't just nobbled by them, a lot of people who now worship Corbyn's every move hated Ed.