Centre-left Frank-Walter Steinmeier elected president of Germany
Vocal Donald Trump critic says he wants Germany to be an ‘anchor of hope’ after he was voted in by parliamentary assembly
Donald Trump is undermining the fight against corruption
Larry Elliott
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:45 pm
by tinyclanger2
In the workplace, unfortunately, I am sometimes required to provide feedback on people's weaknesses as well as on their strengths. I try to do it without insulting them, but understand that they may feel insulted nevertheless. Their feeling insulted however, does not make the feedback I provide invalid.
Kirk Douglas: ‘I never thought I’d live to 100. That’s shocked me’
One of the good guys
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:51 pm
by yahyah
It may be useful to follow your own advice sometimes. All the tutting and ffs'ing when a certain poster turns up is what you took me to task for doing, and the people I'm wary of were a lot less polite to me than he has ever been to you.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 3:52 pm
by citizenJA
Everyone in Stoke Central with a vote, please make sure you do so.
Kirk Douglas: ‘I never thought I’d live to 100. That’s shocked me’
One of the good guys
All those films, Saturday afternoon at the pics. Tara Bulba, Heroes of Telemark, queuing up in the break for a half melted choc ice. Hiding in the seat to see the second showing.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:02 pm
by tinyclanger2
No place like home: America’s eviction epidemic
Soaring rents and low wages have hit the poorest families in the US hard. Harvard sociologist Matthew Desmond introduces an extract from his heartbreaking book about the crisis https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ing-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:06 pm
by HindleA
Choc ice/tub split.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:08 pm
by yahyah
Strawberry Mivvis. Or were they later ?
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:18 pm
by tinyclanger2
Donald Trump told he won’t escape the ‘biggest protest in British history’ by moving his state visit
Local politicians in Birmingham have pledged to greet any trip by the President with mass protests http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 76211.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Donald Trump’s state visit will be greeted by the biggest anti-racism protest in British history no matter where in the country the Government moves it to, campaigners have said.
Local politicians and activists in Birmingham reacted with anger to suggestions that the trip could be relocated to their city – and pledged to flood the streets with protesters to greet the “hateful” President.
Good; hope the Brummies organise enough press coverage. Would be good to demonstrate to the world that we are not only a bunch of anti-refugee, anti-immigrant, xenophobic, racist, nationalistic, isolationists.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:27 pm
by HindleA
Yahyah-your knowledge obviously exceeds mine in this area.Bear in mind I am far younger than you.Particularly because I started counting backwards after 40.
George Michael's family demand investigation into 999 call leak
Lawyers for family of singer, who died in December, say they are appalled that recording and transcript were made public
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:48 pm
by tinyclanger2
YahYah - just noticed the pm. To be clear, I was not suggesting I was your line manager - or indeed anyone else's. I was making an analogy.
I am trying to have an open discussion about how we - collectively - avoid driving people away. Why make it all about you?
Kirk Douglas: ‘I never thought I’d live to 100. That’s shocked me’
One of the good guys
All those films, Saturday afternoon at the pics. Tara Bulba, Heroes of Telemark, queuing up in the break for a half melted choc ice. Hiding in the seat to see the second showing.
Continuous performances - seeing the end, then the beginning!
Choc ices were 6d - a 'sandwich' (block of ice cream between two wafers, for those too young to remember) were only 3d.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:23 pm
by PorFavor
The first time I went to the cinema (Saturday morning pictures) I spent the whole time perched on the folded-up seat as I didn't realise that they flipped down (I think I just assumed that my seat was broken). It was very uncomfortable.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:26 pm
by refitman
Eric_WLothian wrote:
yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
One of the good guys
All those films, Saturday afternoon at the pics. Tara Bulba, Heroes of Telemark, queuing up in the break for a half melted choc ice. Hiding in the seat to see the second showing.
Continuous performances - seeing the end, then the beginning!
Choc ices were 6d - a 'sandwich' (block of ice cream between two wafers, for those too young to remember) were only 3d.
Mmmm, Ice-cream sandwich.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:33 pm
by SpinningHugo
If you want a brilliant early Kirk Douglas movie, watch Out of the Past. One of the best movies ever made.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:43 pm
by tinybgoat
@tinyclanger2, this was going to be off topic, but by chance timing seems
not to be, have you seen the 'Lego Batman Movie' yet & (if so) does it have Unikitty in it?
[youtube]zvugNQhR5hs[/youtube]
C of E warns of 'corrupting pressures of politics' in response to Trump fears
In a reply to a question on the US president, church says it can offer example to those who ‘face the temptations of high office’
Foreign billionaires in London choosing to rent to avoid stamp duty
Number of lettings costing more than £3,000 a week increased by 28% in the last three months of 2016, research shows
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:53 pm
by SpinningHugo
tinyclanger2 wrote:. SH - what's your view on the fact that so many people want you to leave? Give us a clue as to why you're here.
The same as most others. To engage with other people about topical political questions. Far from not respecting people here, I am here because I do respect you, but am interested in why others see the world so differently from me.
Some reasons I'm not here
1. To reinforce the prejudices most of us share. What is the point of my posting "Tory cuts to X are really bad for those affected." Of course they are. How does that carry forward our understanding of anything?
2. To post links to stories I can see on the frontpage of the Guardian or through a quick perusal of twitter. I post links to things that are interesting that are more obscure. The board tends to get cluttered up with trivial stuff we've all seen, always reinforcing one point of view.
I came back in 2016, after a hiatus, to try and understand why some people were still backing Corbyn, despite the overwhelming evidence of catastrophe. What would lead people I respected to double down on such an obviously daft choice? TBH, I am not much the wiser. There is a strain of the left that doesn't mind losing, as it doesn't involve any of the unpleasant compromises winning requires.
What do I think about so many people wanting me to leave? I don't care very much. I am not, despite the constant allegations, a troll of any kind, concern or otherwise. I actually believe what I post. I am 'of the left' have always voted Labour, but can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken?
If I were cynical, I'd suggest one reason for departures is that people don't like confessing to error. Now, I am not claiming I make no mistakes. Here are three I have made over the last 2 years
1. The polls immediately before the 2015 election convinced me Labour would be in government. I was wrong.
2. I thought it completely improbably people would vote for Brexit. I was wrong.
3. Despite some scepticism on here, I do know about the law, and know what the right result to the Miller case should have been. I thought the UKSC would agree. That a majority did not is inexplicable to me.
But, if you argue at length about, say, Jeremy Corbyn, or whether Labour voting for Brexit would be for the best, and it then looks like you're just obviously wrong, the temptation is to leave. Labour has disgraced itself over Brexit and if you put what is good for the poor over loyalty to a particular party, you shouldn't vote Labour.
More generally, who likes having their beliefs or assumptions challenged? I don't but it is good for me.
I don't swear, I don't insult. The worst personal thing I've said is repeatedly calling AK over optimistic. But, if I am not breaking the rules, I don't see why I should leave just for forcefully expressing views others don't agree with.
Foreign billionaires in London choosing to rent to avoid stamp duty
Number of lettings costing more than £3,000 a week increased by 28% in the last three months of 2016, research shows
Interesting that the only factor suggested in the article is the rise in stamp duty that came in in 2015. Of course, the other thing which came in in 2015 was the Tory government with a promise of an EU referendum. With Brexit looming, is it possible people looking for high end medium term accommodation in London are wary of buying an asset in an overheated property bubble that is long overdue a "market correction"?
US Department of Education gets WEB Du Bois' name wrong in tweet
Tweet erroneously calling African American author and activist ‘W.E.B. DeBois’ is latest Black History Month embarrassment for the Trump administration
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 6:08 pm
by gilsey
PorFavor wrote:
The Andrew Rawnsley article isn't too bad today, either. (Although the first paragraph is a bit snidey - and I don't even like Diane Abbott.)
Possibly the best thing about that article is this comment btl.
nonanon1
Parliament has diminished itself from the very beginning of this sorry referendum fiasco. Voting for constitutional change on a simple majority. Not making clear that the vote was advisory when the government assured the public that it would be acted upon. Accepting the "will of the people" based on verifiable lies and misinformation expressed in a protest vote as a mandate for hard Brexit, that even Leave campaigners had assured the public would not happen. Abrogating the duty to act in the best interest of the country despite mounting evidence. The mother of parliaments has been found negligent, feeble and more suitable to a banana republic than mature democracy.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 6:15 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
A Swiss bloke I know couldn't believe the free for all of the referendum. In Switzerland referendums are more circumscribed.
Ohsocynical, pointed out (elsewhere) that Hugo doesn't troll so much as 'flame' & I agree that it's a better fit.
Personally I find some of Hugo's links & info useful, it's the Sophistry that gets to me.
Ohsocynical, pointed out (elsewhere) that Hugo doesn't troll so much as 'flame' & I agree that it's a better fit.
Personally I find some of Hugo's links & info useful, it's the Sophistry that gets to me.
Flaming is, on my understanding, insulting people, often involving swearing.
I don't do that, IMO.
If I am guilty of sophistry, plenty of clever people on here perfectly capable of pointing out the flaws in an argument. Why be scared of that?
Ohsocynical, pointed out (elsewhere) that Hugo doesn't troll so much as 'flame' & I agree that it's a better fit.
Personally I find some of Hugo's links & info useful, it's the Sophistry that gets to me.
Flaming is, on my understanding, insulting people, often involving swearing.
I don't do that, IMO.
If I am guilty of sophistry, plenty of clever people on here perfectly capable of pointing out the flaws in an argument. Why be scared of that?
There's more than one way to insult people, than offensive language & I think from reading posts that others have found your words/actions insulting in the past.
As for the pointing out flaws in your arguments, I think probably attrition/exhaustion in some cases, but personally I'm crap at arguing & you're very, very good at it (well, definitely compared to me, I have a higher opinion of others on ftn & elsewhere's abilities)
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 6:40 pm
by tinyclanger2
Thanks for responding - some (personal) responses on your responses below.
SpinningHugo wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:. SH - what's your view on the fact that so many people want you to leave? Give us a clue as to why you're here.
The same as most others. To engage with other people about topical political questions. Far from not respecting people here, I am here because I do respect you, but am interested in why others see the world so differently from me. Sounds familiar.
Some reasons I'm not here
1. To reinforce the prejudices most of us share. What is the point of my posting "Tory cuts to X are really bad for those affected." Of course they are. How does that carry forward our understanding of anything? Tend to agree (somewhat)
2. To post links to stories I can see on the frontpage of the Guardian or through a quick perusal of twitter. I post links to things that are interesting that are more obscure. The board tends to get cluttered up with trivial stuff we've all seen, always reinforcing one point of view. Unecessary and condescending.
I came back in 2016, after a hiatus, to try and understand why some people were still backing Corbyn, despite the overwhelming evidence of catastrophe. What would lead people I respected to double down on such an obviously daft choice? TBH, I am not much the wiser. There is a strain of the left that doesn't mind losing, as it doesn't involve any of the unpleasant compromises winning requires.Partly agree but this is a tricky area. In the past have been faced with that question: do we want to win? and what is the line that we will not cross to do so? I think there has to be a line (but perhaps a very different one from the ones we tend to draw)
What do I think about so many people wanting me to leave? I don't care very much. I am not, despite the constant allegations, a troll of any kind, concern or otherwise. I actually believe what I post. Always? or some of the time? I am 'of the left' have always voted Labour, but can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken? Why morally, specifically?
If I were cynical, and/or disingenuous? I'd suggest one reason for departures is that people don't like confessing to error. Now, I am not claiming I make no mistakes. Here are three I have made over the last 2 years
1. The polls immediately before the 2015 election convinced me Labour would be in government. I was wrong.
2. I thought it completely improbably people would vote for Brexit. I was wrong. What was the evidence there?
3. Despite some scepticism on here, I do know about the law, and know what the right result to the Miller case should have been. I thought the UKSC would agree. That a majority did not is inexplicable to me. Could it be that you don't know as much about the law as you think? ("the law", apart from anything else, being fundamentally open to interpretation)
But, if you argue at length about, say, Jeremy Corbyn, or whether Labour voting for Brexit would be for the best, and it then looks like you're just obviously wrong, the temptation is to leave. Labour has disgraced itself over Brexit and if you put what is good for the poor over loyalty to a particular party, you shouldn't vote Labour. But are the Greens any better?
More generally, who likes having their beliefs or assumptions challenged? I don't but it is good for me.
I don't swear, I don't insult. The worst personal thing I've said is repeatedly calling AK over optimistic. But, if I am not breaking the rules, I don't see why I should leave just for forcefully expressing views others don't agree with.
Me neither - but it's curious how little you engage in the discussion about it. Do you want to change anyone's mind here (if so you'll need to work on your communication style)? Or do you want to learn something (ditto)? Or is it of casual anthropological interest?
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 6:47 pm
by SpinningHugo
tinyclanger2 wrote:Thanks for responding - some (personal) responses on your responses below.
SpinningHugo wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:. SH - what's your view on the fact that so many people want you to leave? Give us a clue as to why you're here.
The same as most others. To engage with other people about topical political questions. Far from not respecting people here, I am here because I do respect you, but am interested in why others see the world so differently from me. Sounds familiar.
Some reasons I'm not here
1. To reinforce the prejudices most of us share. What is the point of my posting "Tory cuts to X are really bad for those affected." Of course they are. How does that carry forward our understanding of anything? Tend to agree (somewhat)
2. To post links to stories I can see on the frontpage of the Guardian or through a quick perusal of twitter. I post links to things that are interesting that are more obscure. The board tends to get cluttered up with trivial stuff we've all seen, always reinforcing one point of view. Unecessary and condescending.
I came back in 2016, after a hiatus, to try and understand why some people were still backing Corbyn, despite the overwhelming evidence of catastrophe. What would lead people I respected to double down on such an obviously daft choice? TBH, I am not much the wiser. There is a strain of the left that doesn't mind losing, as it doesn't involve any of the unpleasant compromises winning requires.Partly agree but this is a tricky area. In the past have been faced with that question: do we want to win? and what is the line that we will not cross to do so? I think there has to be a line (but perhaps a very different one from the ones we tend to draw)
What do I think about so many people wanting me to leave? I don't care very much. I am not, despite the constant allegations, a troll of any kind, concern or otherwise. I actually believe what I post. Always? or some of the time? I am 'of the left' have always voted Labour, but can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken? Why morally, specifically?
If I were cynical, and/or disingenuous? I'd suggest one reason for departures is that people don't like confessing to error. Now, I am not claiming I make no mistakes. Here are three I have made over the last 2 years
1. The polls immediately before the 2015 election convinced me Labour would be in government. I was wrong.
2. I thought it completely improbably people would vote for Brexit. I was wrong. What was the evidence there?
3. Despite some scepticism on here, I do know about the law, and know what the right result to the Miller case should have been. I thought the UKSC would agree. That a majority did not is inexplicable to me. Could it be that you don't know as much about the law as you think? ("the law", apart from anything else, being fundamentally open to interpretation)
But, if you argue at length about, say, Jeremy Corbyn, or whether Labour voting for Brexit would be for the best, and it then looks like you're just obviously wrong, the temptation is to leave. Labour has disgraced itself over Brexit and if you put what is good for the poor over loyalty to a particular party, you shouldn't vote Labour. But are the Greens any better?
More generally, who likes having their beliefs or assumptions challenged? I don't but it is good for me.
I don't swear, I don't insult. The worst personal thing I've said is repeatedly calling AK over optimistic. But, if I am not breaking the rules, I don't see why I should leave just for forcefully expressing views others don't agree with.
Me neither - but it's curious how little you engage in the discussion about it. Do you want to change anyone's mind here (if so you'll need to work on your communication style)? Or do you want to learn something (ditto)? Or is it of casual anthropological interest?
Oh no, I have no illusions that anyone will change their minds in the light of a conversation on a message board with an anonymous person. That wasn't in the list of reasons I gave. Who would think that, say Temulkar would be persuaded to think differently by any of us, or that, say, AK will suddenly think "he's right, I need to abandon my commitment to Labour". That would be extremely naive.
It is, I freely admit, all about me. I want to know how people whose instincts are good, this isn't a board of fascists or Ukippers, can think so differently from me. Is there more to this than obvious error?
Perhaps that is the source of the annoyance of others? I am not interested in being friends (I have lots of real world ones) or in sugaring what I say to make it more palatable.
Possibly the best thing about that article is this comment btl.
nonanon1
Parliament has diminished itself from the very beginning of this sorry referendum fiasco. Voting for constitutional change on a simple majority. Not making clear that the vote was advisory when the government assured the public that it would be acted upon. Accepting the "will of the people" based on verifiable lies and misinformation expressed in a protest vote as a mandate for hard Brexit, that even Leave campaigners had assured the public would not happen. Abrogating the duty to act in the best interest of the country despite mounting evidence. The mother of parliaments has been found negligent, feeble and more suitable to a banana republic than mature democracy.
(cJA edit)
Yes, I've just come from reading it too. That's a great post.
Something else I've notice though confuses me no end. Why do people argue for what they didn't vote for, don't ultimately support and know is going be sharp sticks in the eye for country and people? I'm not talking about the 'I voted Remain, but...' liars. Regular people, they seem reasonable, well-informed. Badly and inaccurately arguing there's no alternative.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 6:54 pm
by SpinningHugo
tinyclanger2 wrote:can't morally vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn. If people think I am a troll, and leave because of that, what can I say other than that they are mistaken? Why morally, specifically?
Esperanza and Teodula are calling for justice in rural Peru, part of 300,000 people sterilised without consent more than 18 years ago. The Quipu project is their phoneline that allows victims across the country to share their shocking testimonies and ensure those responsible are punished.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:17 pm
by citizenJA
Most people aren't consistently conniving and genuinely want to make sense of the world and words others post
A few are fundamentally double-dealing
Thieves steal £2m of rare books by abseiling into warehouse
descend a rock face or other near-vertical surface by using a doubled rope coiled round the body and fixed at a higher point.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:57 pm
by AngryAsWell
Owen Bennett @owenjbennett 28m28 minutes ago
This has just been retweeted by Ukip's Immigration Spokesman and party treasurer @JohnBickleyUKIP
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think UKIP may have gone a step to far with this one.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:02 pm
by AngryAsWell
Petition
Introduce Animal Health and Welfare to the school curriculum
Animal abuse complaints increased by over 6,000 in 2014. Education could be a key factor to preventing the pattern from continuing into the future; reducing animal suffering and also giving future generations an understanding of animal care.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170481" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Can one of our guests please post this at your place, I know there are lots of animal lovers there as well. Thanks.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:11 pm
by AngryAsWell
Cruel thieves steal charity box for nine-year-old girl raising money for operation so she can walk again
Kareena Hayes suffers from cerebral palsy and doctors say a £10,000 pioneering procedure is her best chance of ever walking again
This is very sad, but what has happened to our country that people should even have to raise funds for operations? Why is it not done on the NHS ?
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:14 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
AngryAsWell wrote:Owen Bennett @owenjbennett 28m28 minutes ago
This has just been retweeted by Ukip's Immigration Spokesman and party treasurer @JohnBickleyUKIP
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think UKIP may have gone a step to far with this one.
Their base don't care.
Re: Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017
Posted: Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:23 pm
by AngryAsWell
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Owen Bennett @owenjbennett 28m28 minutes ago
This has just been retweeted by Ukip's Immigration Spokesman and party treasurer @JohnBickleyUKIP
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think UKIP may have gone a step to far with this one.
Their base don't care.
True, but maybe, just maybe the MSM might realise what they have spawned ?
