Monday 21st September 2015

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 3:52 pm

utopiandreams wrote:@danesclose

Wo ist das, DC? Oder doch lieber ich nicht nennen Sie, DC?

Ich fand es hier

http://www.vice.com/de/read/wichtige-fr ... iggate-101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 3:55 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:This analysis of piggate is worth a read

http://www.robfahey.co.uk/blog/the-pm-t ... -on-power/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The PM, the Pig and musings on Power

I’m going to try to do something perhaps unwise, perhaps impossible; I’m going to try to write something serious about David Cameron and “pig-gate”. I’m even going to abstain from porcine puns – because for all that this story is gleeful tabloid filth, I think that at its beating heart there is an important story about control, about authority and about the nature of power in modern Britain.

Seriously. Hope he manages it...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:00 pm

... A Tory association rushed to cancel a 'pig race' fundraiser today after lurid claims about David Cameron hogged the headlines.

Pulled pork sandwiches would have been served at the 'exciting and unpredictable evening' in West Yorkshire - with tickets priced at just £7.50 a head.

But the Dewsbury County Conservative Association pulled the event from its Facebook page just hours after claims about the PM emerged.

Thankfully for pig-lovers the event has now been hastily reinstated - with organisers admitting someone 'was a bit premature' in pulling it...

...One user of the social networking site wrote: "Hey guys why cancel the pig race? Have you no sense of humour? oink!"

Another put simply: "What happened to the pig f***ing event?"...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/co ... ce-6487487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:02 pm

utopiandreams wrote:@citizenJA

I'm not sure that any law has actually been broken, JA. No matter how depraved we consider his deeds, bestiality would only apply to live creatures, wouldn't it? Of course I'm no expert on such matters I hasten to add.

When I mentioned criminal activity, I wasn't referring to Dave and the pig.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:05 pm

David Hameron triumphed over Ed Swiliband, Pork Clegg and Nigel Forage

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... bacon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00816.jpg (91.33 KiB) Viewed 8079 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:10 pm

No mention of hubby's relations with Gloucestershire Old Spots or anything, but Cherie Bleugh once caught swine flu. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ch ... flu-407066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00812.jpg (68.55 KiB) Viewed 8073 times

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:10 pm

If I were a parent at the West London Free School, I'd wonder why the school founder and "CEO" was on telly associating himself with this stuff.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:11 pm

William Bain ‏@William_Bain 17 hrs17 hours ago

Most damaging revelation from Ashcroft book: Cameron & The Bullingdon Club "It was all about despising poor people"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... n-boy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:17 pm

I apologise if posting this here offends anyone. I think humour might be very necessary to get these s***s disgraced and out of power though. Haven't listened to this - hope it is actually funny.

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick 1m1 minute ago
Here's full LP by 'Iain Duncan Smiths' @ids_dwp ...think Girlfriend in a Coma (She's Fit for Work) is highlight - http://bit.ly/1gGqkv4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:20 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I just don't see how he will get away with that - Labour should simply shout "its YOUR referendum, the one YOU wanted" at him non stop.
I'm worried that the pressure that has already clearly been exerted on Corbyn from certain parts / people in Labour re Europe will not allow Corbyn and the SC to see the trap for what it is and do the sensible thing that you suggest ... i.e. keep shouting it's YOUR referendum.

I actually think neutrality might also be a better position for Labour if Cameron and the Tories are going to take that stance. We really shouldn't be the front runners in any of the campaign stuff for Cameron's referendum.
Yes, I think this was unfortunate. Being able to hang back and wait for the 'renegotiation' was a good position to be in. And purely cynically, how many votes are there in being a party that's pro-EU no matter what?

At the very least, Labour should avoid campaigning FOR remaining in if that's what it takes. Otherwise they'll just be in exactly the same position as in the Indyref. Which is probably what the Tories are counting on.

The renegotiation is irrelevant. Cameron's not going to make everybody else change it to something they don't want. It'll be an opt out, if he gets anything.

Stay in EU and scrap the opt out as soon as possible.

Like they did when Major got his social chapter opt out.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:22 pm

Lord Ashcroft ‏@LordAshcroft 1 hr1 hour ago

Just finished my third day on the Battlefields of Gallipoli. Fascinating experience. Must catch up with what's happening in the UK.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:22 pm

ohsocynical wrote:William Bain ‏@William_Bain 17 hrs17 hours ago

Most damaging revelation from Ashcroft book: Cameron & The Bullingdon Club "It was all about despising poor people"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... n-boy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

I did wonder if the pig thing was a deliberate distraction

: ScreenShot00797.jpg (60.99 KiB) Viewed 8055 times

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:23 pm

Cassetteboy vs David Cameron - Gettin' Piggy With It

[youtube]FBpQJ98rR4o[/youtube]

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:25 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:This analysis of piggate is worth a read

http://www.robfahey.co.uk/blog/the-pm-t ... -on-power/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...

Thanks, Robert, I hope I wouldn't be considered as following the crowd if I also pointed out the ramifications of Dave's dastardly deeds? The early part of this analysis largely mirrors my own thoughts but then goes on to suggest that Dave could and may even survive this. I hope not.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:25 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I apologise if posting this here offends anyone. I think humour might be very necessary to get these s***s disgraced and out of power though. Haven't listened to this - hope it is actually funny.

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick 1m1 minute ago
Here's full LP by 'Iain Duncan Smiths' @ids_dwp ...think Girlfriend in a Coma (She's Fit for Work) is highlight - http://bit.ly/1gGqkv4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sound not brilliant for my bad hearing so had a job with the words, but it sounds rather like just another protest song.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:26 pm

If anyone actually does have a pic of Cameron doing the business, such a pic is alleged to have existed, today's revelations would make it worth a lot.

The pic's monetary value on the tabloid market might be outweighed by its worth to an individual who may want Cameron to play ball on some issue.

It may also help explain why the Tories have been so desperate to smear Corbyn as a risk to national security.

A PM who is potentially blackmailable if pics of sex with pigs really exist, is surely a massive security risk himself.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:27 pm

Very pleased to see Corbyn has made Debbie Abrahams shadow minister for disabled people.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:41 pm

Ashcroft hints he's planning a second book critical of Cameron

Bad news for David Cameron. Following the publication of this biography, Lord Ashcroft may publish another potentially damaging memoir, he has hinted.(Politics Live, Guardian - my bold)

Is the bolded bit dedicated to Dippy J Hodges, I wonder?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:42 pm

Hadn't heard of Macrory, but apparently he is a BBC journo.

Sam Macrory ‏@sammacrory 4h4 hours ago
Another dangerous enemy? "Andy does not feel well disposed towards Cameron..." - Kelvin MacKenzie on Andy Coulson #bbcdp

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 4h4 hours ago
Since #hackingtrial evidence showed Coulson kept a diary while Cameron's press spokesman, this *could* be much more damaging

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Ashcroft hints he's planning a second book critical of Cameron

Bad news for David Cameron. Following the publication of this biography, Lord Ashcroft may publish another potentially damaging memoir, he has hinted.(Politics Live, Guardian - my bold)
Is the bolded bit dedicated to Dippy J Hodges, I wonder?

Thank you for this!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:44 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Ashcroft hints he's planning a second book critical of Cameron

Bad news for David Cameron. Following the publication of this biography, Lord Ashcroft may publish another potentially damaging memoir, he has hinted.(Politics Live, Guardian - my bold)
Is the bolded bit dedicated to Dippy J Hodges, I wonder?

Why warn Cameron ?
To make him play ball or to make him sweat ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:45 pm

yahyah wrote:Hadn't heard of Macrory, but apparently he is a BBC journo.

Sam Macrory ‏@sammacrory 4h4 hours ago
Another dangerous enemy? "Andy does not feel well disposed towards Cameron..." - Kelvin MacKenzie on Andy Coulson #bbcdp

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 4h4 hours ago
Since #hackingtrial evidence showed Coulson kept a diary while Cameron's press spokesman, this *could* be much more damaging

Would he be allowed to make any money from selling his story / diaries? What's the law on those convicted of a criminal offence not being allowed to profit from such ...?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:45 pm

yahyah wrote:If anyone actually does have a pic of Cameron doing the business, such a pic is alleged to have existed, today's revelations would make it worth a lot.

The pic's monetary value on the tabloid market might be outweighed by its worth to an individual who may want Cameron to play ball on some issue.

It may also help explain why the Tories have been so desperate to smear Corbyn as a risk to national security.

A PM who is potentially blackmailable if pics of sex with pigs really exist, is surely a massive security risk himself.

This is the angle to approach, I think.

He'd have to tell the security services about this risk, wouldn't he?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:51 pm

I'm happy, too, for that vengeful Blairite ultra out there - who just got a big, fat book contract.

Who does Bonnie Greer mean by this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/bonnie- ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:53 pm

Wonder if there are any Oxford butchers around who may remember posh boys buying pig heads ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:53 pm

Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 3m3 minutes ago
Could Corbynites just give me the line to take if the pig story turns out to have been a pack of lies. Ta.

Just shut up, maybe?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 4:54 pm

Nothing posted here today has offended me, my friends.
I'm gravely dissatisfied by current affairs.

edited to add
Tory government aren't coherent, they're an elitist club of people harming the lives of people in this country and others due to their poor leadership. They can do as they like. Leave everyone else alone. Get out of the way.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:02 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 3m3 minutes ago
Could Corbynites just give me the line to take if the pig story turns out to have been a pack of lies. Ta.
Just shut up, maybe?

Hodges desperately wants it to be a pack of lies.
That says a lot, as if we didn't know he doesn't really want anything that helps Labour.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:07 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 3m3 minutes ago
Could Corbynites just give me the line to take if the pig story turns out to have been a pack of lies. Ta.
Just shut up, maybe?

Or maybe take a look at some of the other stories there e.g. Cameron knowing about Ashcroft being a non-dom back in 2009.

Y'know, like a real journalist would.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:09 pm

Marie-Kate ‏@marie_kate2 4 mins4 minutes ago
@matt_dathan @GracieSamuels

They tried phoning Downing Street, but all they got was Crackling.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:10 pm

If the pig story isn't true - and I rather doubt it is - there's one humiliating climbdown ahead by the Daily Mail which will enjoyable just on its own. A large fine paid to a charity of Cameron's choice would be good - a large fine levied on Dacre himself that is.

Did someone mention Leveson? That seems to have gone awfully quiet - wonder whether Cameron is kicking himself that he didn't so something about it before?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:14 pm

Six rashers of best back, a pork pie, a dozen Lincolnshire sausages, two trotters and one of those nice smooth silky lily white heads with the gorgeous lips please my good man.

: CPbvvYSWsAQ7gFs.jpg (56.92 KiB) Viewed 7955 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:16 pm

Why do you think it is unlikely to be true Roger ?

US universities have had problems with hazing, weird or sexual initiation rituals for years.

Why would our own elite institutions have been any different, particularly when sexualised behaviour and forms of humiliation and 'fagging' (being forced to be a servant), were well known at public schools and likely to be continued at uni?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:18 pm

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14 mins14 minutes ago

Disturbing about #piggate is that there are no stories from mates of PM doing anything particularly worthwhile or kind when young

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:21 pm

Can I have some of your special stuff ?

[youtube]4M3FrHsiSfE[/youtube]

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:24 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14 mins14 minutes ago

Disturbing about #piggate is that there are no stories from mates of PM doing anything particularly worthwhile or kind when young

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74367.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron accepted an all-expenses paid trip to apartheid South Africa while Nelson Mandela was still in prison, an updated biography of the Tory leader reveals today.

The trip by Mr Cameron in 1989, when he was a rising star of the Conservative Research Department, was a chance for him to "see for himself" and was funded by a firm that lobbied against the imposition of sanctions on the apartheid regime.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:24 pm

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utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:26 pm

danesclose wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@danesclose

Wo ist das, DC? Oder doch lieber ich nicht nennen Sie, DC?
Ich fand es hier

http://www.vice.com/de/read/wichtige-fr ... iggate-101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link, danesclose, doesn't poking fun at our acting PM sound delicious in German, Wichtige Fragen, die der Schweinesex-Skandal um David Cameron aufwirft?

Btw my asking about calling you DC was tongue-in-cheek because of Dave's initials, someone I'm guessing you wouldn't appreciate being likened to.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:28 pm

utopiandreams wrote:
danesclose wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@danesclose

Wo ist das, DC? Oder doch lieber ich nicht nennen Sie, DC?
Ich fand es hier

http://www.vice.com/de/read/wichtige-fr ... iggate-101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for the link, danesclose, doesn't poking fun at our acting PM sound delicious in German, Wichtige Fragen, die der Schweinesex-Skandal um David Cameron aufwirft?

Btw my asking about calling you DC was tongue-in-cheek because of Dave's initials, someone I'm guessing you wouldn't appreciate being likened to.

As I'm a placid, forgiving person I ignored it

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:28 pm

yahyah wrote:Why do you think it is unlikely to be true Roger ?

US universities have had problems with hazing, weird or sexual initiation rituals for years.

Why would our own elite institutions have been any different, particularly when sexualised behaviour and forms of humiliation and 'fagging' (being forced to be a servant), were well known at public schools and likely to be continued at uni?

Well known when? Cameron would have left Eton in 1984.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:30 pm

Mike Chillingworth
‏@mchillaz

Seriously though, if we're honest who among us hasn't got high, had sex with the decapitated head of an animal and sold the post office?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14 mins14 minutes ago

Disturbing about #piggate is that there are no stories from mates of PM doing anything particularly worthwhile or kind when young
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74367.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron accepted an all-expenses paid trip to apartheid South Africa while Nelson Mandela was still in prison, an updated biography of the Tory leader reveals today.

The trip by Mr Cameron in 1989, when he was a rising star of the Conservative Research Department, was a chance for him to "see for himself" and was funded by a firm that lobbied against the imposition of sanctions on the apartheid regime.

There are other rumours surrounding that trip, Tubby, concerning its sponsors, Israel, Conservative party funds and missing nukes. Whether or not they be true I couldn't possibly say.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:Why do you think it is unlikely to be true Roger ?

US universities have had problems with hazing, weird or sexual initiation rituals for years.

Why would our own elite institutions have been any different, particularly when sexualised behaviour and forms of humiliation and 'fagging' (being forced to be a servant), were well known at public schools and likely to be continued at uni?
Well known when? Cameron would have left Eton in 1984.

It wasn't that many years ago public schools were hauled into the twentieth century.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:39 pm

@danesclose

Was that flaccid you wrote, danesclose? You'll have to excuse me 'cause certain activities damage ones sight.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm worried that the pressure that has already clearly been exerted on Corbyn from certain parts / people in Labour re Europe will not allow Corbyn and the SC to see the trap for what it is and do the sensible thing that you suggest ... i.e. keep shouting it's YOUR referendum.

I actually think neutrality might also be a better position for Labour if Cameron and the Tories are going to take that stance. We really shouldn't be the front runners in any of the campaign stuff for Cameron's referendum.
Yes, I think this was unfortunate. Being able to hang back and wait for the 'renegotiation' was a good position to be in. And purely cynically, how many votes are there in being a party that's pro-EU no matter what?

At the very least, Labour should avoid campaigning FOR remaining in if that's what it takes. Otherwise they'll just be in exactly the same position as in the Indyref. Which is probably what the Tories are counting on.

The renegotiation is irrelevant. Cameron's not going to make everybody else change it to something they don't want. It'll be an opt out, if he gets anything.

Stay in EU and scrap the opt out as soon as possible.

Like they did when Major got his social chapter opt out.

You keep saying it is irrelevant Tubby but with you also saying that Corbyn cannot win an election for labour - we could be looking at a Europe that is different from the one I want for a decade or more.

There is also the problem that the right-wing is in the ascendency at the moment with austerity being the mot de jour - I can see that the watering down of social protections may not be unwelcome in France (under Sarko perhaps) or Merkel.

Why say now that we will say 'In' when there is no strategic advantage to doing so and we have not actually seen what we are voting on. if you are right that it is an irrelevance then okay we can campaign on that....but what if you are wrong?

I am peo-EU but I am not pro-right wing dogma - and Europe is seeming to move in that direction.

Whatever happens we cannot let this referendum being sold as a Cameron success at the expense of Labour - he will be happy with a draw even....Labour should go out to win the argument about the benefits of a social Europe and how it can help protect the workers from the excesses of capitalism whilst allowing trade to prosper

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:Why do you think it is unlikely to be true Roger ?

US universities have had problems with hazing, weird or sexual initiation rituals for years.

Why would our own elite institutions have been any different, particularly when sexualised behaviour and forms of humiliation and 'fagging' (being forced to be a servant), were well known at public schools and likely to be continued at uni?
Well known when? Cameron would have left Eton in 1984.
It wasn't that many years ago public schools were hauled into the twentieth century.

They were shaken up more than anything by school league tables.

Even if you accept "If..." as accurately reflecting its times, it was made in 1968.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:48 pm

@YahYah

Paul Quigley
‏@quigleyp
BREAKING: UK Big 6 Energy Cartel Set To Hike Gas & Electricity Prices Hitting Elderly & Austerity-Hit Families In 'Heat Or Eat' Horror #FAIL

You said about a fixed term deal with your energy supplier the other day...Hope it's not too late.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:49 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: You keep saying it is irrelevant Tubby but with you also saying that Corbyn cannot win an election for labour - we could be looking at a Europe that is different from the one I want for a decade or more.

There is also the problem that the right-wing is in the ascendency at the moment with austerity being the mot de jour - I can see that the watering down of social protections may not be unwelcome in France (under Sarko perhaps) or Merkel.

Why say now that we will say 'In' when there is no strategic advantage to doing so and we have not actually seen what we are voting on. if you are right that it is an irrelevance then okay we can campaign on that....but what if you are wrong?

I am peo-EU but I am not pro-right wing dogma - and Europe is seeming to move in that direction.

Whatever happens we cannot let this referendum being sold as a Cameron success at the expense of Labour - he will be happy with a draw even....Labour should go out to win the argument about the benefits of a social Europe and how it can help protect the workers from the excesses of capitalism whilst allowing trade to prosper

I think Corbyn will do a couple of years and be satisfied, having shaken things up. He's doing that well.

If Britain leaves, Cameron/Osborne have more freedom to do what they want.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:50 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Well known when? Cameron would have left Eton in 1984.
It wasn't that many years ago public schools were hauled into the twentieth century.
They were shaken up more than anything by school league tables.

Even if you accept "If..." as accurately reflecting its times, it was made in 1968.

Notice I said twentieth century. Not twenty first.

I'm remembering flogging by prefects, and as YahYah said fagging...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 5:52 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:Why do you think it is unlikely to be true Roger ?

US universities have had problems with hazing, weird or sexual initiation rituals for years.

Why would our own elite institutions have been any different, particularly when sexualised behaviour and forms of humiliation and 'fagging' (being forced to be a servant), were well known at public schools and likely to be continued at uni?
Well known when? Cameron would have left Eton in 1984.

Admittedly, the previous head of Eton, a serial punisher of boys and their buttocks had to leave in 1969. Cameron would have arrived in 1979.

But how likely that an institution imbued with the type of behaviour would suddenly become an enlightened haven ? How many masters, staff, and parents who sent their boys there after suffering such behaviour themselves, would still be carrying a torch for a firm hand with the boys ?

Fagging may have been officially phased out in the late 60's, much later in some other schools, but again, how easy is it to change the culture of a school when that has gone on for many, many years ?

At another public school, Fettes, where the Eton head also worked, Mark Peel wrote that "the sight of a petrified third former shaking with fear outside the prefects' room before being exposed to some lurid initiation ritual wasn't unknown".

Nick Fraser, in his book The Importance of Being Eton: Inside the World's Most Powerful School, apparently spilt the beans. The Sunday Times said that he "was subjected to a furtive sexual assault by the headmaster, Anthony Chenevix-Trench, whose proclivities in this area were not made public until after his death, and it damaged him, he says, 'more than I could ever have brought myself to express'".

Paul Foot, the investigative journalist also wrote about what he suffered from Chenevix-Trench when he was at Shrewsbury.

From The Observer ''Even by the standards of England's public schools, Anthony Chenevix-Trench, his housemaster at Shrewsbury, was a flagellomaniac. Foot recalled: 'He would offer his culprit an alternative: four strokes with the cane, which hurt; or six with the strap, with trousers down, which didn't. Sensible boys always chose the strap, despite the humiliation, and Trench, quite unable to control his glee, led the way to an upstairs room, which he locked, before hauling down the miscreant's trousers, lying him face down on a couch and lashing out with a belt.'

If all this behaviour had just disappeared, why the bullying of the Bullingdons.
Where did they learn their ways ?
'Lurid initiation rituals' as described above would have been known about, and some experience them. All likely to influence Bullingdon, Piers Gaveston club behaviour surely ?
There is plenty of evidence of rituals, punishments, bullying. I don't think a psychologist would have much trouble linking exposure to such regimes as having an effect on later behaviour