Thursday, 7th July 2016

[TobyLatimer]

I will, I really will. Tomorrow maybe. When the time is right. That is all I have to say. But I will.

el-guila-y-los-dos-gallos.jpg (22.75 KiB) Viewed 6748 times

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP.

They're called the members of the Labour Party, Hugo. Rather more of them than the 'small right group' to which you belong.

But I think you are wrong in thinking this was a planned conspiracy.

Well, it's definitely difficult to believe it was "planned" for sure. Because, despite it being blatantly obvious from the get go that there were elements of the PLP gunning for this moment since the day the leadership result came in, there's scant evidence that they have a clue what they're doing. But, the "grown-ups" of the Party want to take back control. Hey ho.

The PLP are a "small right group"? All these people who want Corbyn to go- Gordo, Ed, Rhodri Morgan, Kier Starmer, Owen Smith, Carwyn Jones, Sadiq Khan- they're in a "small right group"? The Corbyn group were a small minority in 1988- they got 12% against Kinnock. It's basically about 6 MPs now plus a few strong pro-European leftists elected in 2015. There's no way you can lead a party from the Campaign Group. It would be like the Tories having the Monday Club or, even worse, the party conference in charge.

I don't want Angela Eagle as leader. But if Corbyn's not going to get stuck in v Boris in EU debates and send her out to do it, then she's more of a leader in my book. The referendum was an incredible opportunity for a leader of the opposition. In normal times, they don't get to make much of an impression v the Prime Minister. Cameron made sure Ed didn't get a debate to have a pop at him. But Corbyn, uniquely, has a chance for all the debates he wants. And he doesn't do any of them?

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in. But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

[StephenDolan]

https://www.oecd.org/ctp/transfer-prici ... ackage.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A good idea, but will Osborne and whoever after go along with it?

[ohsocynical]

Andy Burnham ‏@andyburnhammp · 1d1 day ago London, England

We did it! Commons votes by 245-2 to secure status of EU nationals in the UK. Govt can't now retreat on this. Thanks to everyone who helped.

[SpinningHugo]

1. Going through your list, what have any of them done to prove that they could lead the Labour party, let alone the country?

I grant you that the most significant qualification all of them have is being not Jeremy Corbyn, and not belonging to the small left faction he comes from.

Your implication that the Labour party are misogynist is frankly below a serious political debate.

I tend to think of it are, unfortunately. It is otherwise inexplicable to me how Cooper came third to Burnham, an utterly useless politician. I don't think we'll see a woman lead the Labour party in my lifetime.

2. Of course you can't, neither can I. However I think that the past 10 years since Blair departed, and the attitude of his acolytes mean that I'm more likely to be correct over this than you.

Maybe. I was pretty accurate about how the 2015 election would pan out, until over optimism in the last few weeks got the better of me.

3. I'd be happy if someone stood against Corbyn & beat him, that's democracy. I'd be even happier if all the members of the Labour party, and the PLP could unite behind that person, and the party could get on with doing what it should be doing, namely opposing this government & laying out an alternative. Unfortunately the PLP don't seem to give a shit about the people in this country.

I am afraid I don't agree that, say, Ed Miliband or Alan Johnson or Lisa Nandy "don't give a shit about the people in this country". I think they have all seen the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn in action, closely, and concluded it is disastrous.

it is really an odd thing to me how many on this board think that 172 Labour MPs are, well what. Evil Blairites? Dupes?

As far as I can see, your attitude can really be summed up in 3 letters: "ABC".

In a way, yes. The removal of Corbyn is a necessary condition there being a viable opposition, let alone an end to Tory government.

[frightful_oik]

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

What fucking error?!

[Tubby Isaacs]

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Leadsom says she'll hold a vote on fox hunting if she wins.

Makes me wish Cameron wasn't going. He wasn't in a hurry to bring back fox killing.
Brexit voters, what have you done ?

Actually he repeatedly promised a vote (and is a keen hunt person himself)

The reason one has never actually been held is that the pro-bloodsports lobby know they would have lost it.

Yeah you're right. Cameron would never hold a vote he thought he might lose....

[SpinningHugo]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in. But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Pure speculation, as I am not privy to Corbyn's inner thoughts, but I think the coup came close to succeeding. I am sure he wants to go, he looked haunted last week. The hiding him from Watson, the refusal to let MPs meet him individually, McDonnell going into meetings and answering questions for him, were all efforts to shore up his resolve to stay. The "coup" didn't work because the ordinary rules don't apply. Any other leader would have quit. His loyalty is to his faction overrides that: he'd be betraying it if he quit.

[ohsocynical]

Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP.

They're called the members of the Labour Party, Hugo. Rather more of them than the 'small right group' to which you belong.

But I think you are wrong in thinking this was a planned conspiracy.

Well, it's definitely difficult to believe it was "planned" for sure. Because, despite it being blatantly obvious from the get go that there were elements of the PLP gunning for this moment since the day the leadership result came in, there's scant evidence that they have a clue what they're doing. But, the "grown-ups" of the Party want to take back control. Hey ho.

The PLP are a "small right group"? All these people who want Corbyn to go- Gordo, Ed, Rhodri Morgan, Kier Starmer, Owen Smith, Carwyn Jones, Sadiq Khan- they're in a "small right group"? The Corbyn group were a small minority in 1988- they got 12% against Kinnock. It's basically about 6 MPs now plus a few strong pro-European leftists elected in 2015. There's no way you can lead a party from the Campaign Group. It would be like the Tories having the Monday Club or, even worse, the party conference in charge.

I don't want Angela Eagle as leader. But if Corbyn's not going to get stuck in v Boris in EU debates and send her out to do it, then she's more of a leader in my book. The referendum was an incredible opportunity for a leader of the opposition. In normal times, they don't get to make much of an impression v the Prime Minister. Cameron made sure Ed didn't get a debate to have a pop at him. But Corbyn, uniquely, has a chance for all the debates he wants. And he doesn't do any of them?

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in. But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Tubby we wouldn't be debating any of this or watching Labour's membership grow if the PLP had challenged Corbyn democratically - but they stupidly didn't. And it's that as much as Corbyn that is causing the backlash.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

What fucking error?!

This is what irks me.

As I said the other day, I'm sure most observers here and elsewhere would recognise this as an unprecedented (in my lifetime) political situation.

Therefore, it follows that nobody can know the best way forward. I am however fairly sure that it involves truly listening to others.

[StephenDolan]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

Cultists?

I don't see how that language develops the debate.

[SpinningHugo]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

You could always consider an armed coup. Seize parliament and the machinery of power by main force. It would be about as democractic.

I prefer gently arguing with Corbyn supporters on messageboards. I don't expect to persuade some of course.

[mbc1955]

[quote="SpinningHugo"]
it is really an odd thing to me how many on this board think that 172 Labour MPs are, well what. Evil Blairites? Dupes? differently to me. [/quote="SpinningHugo"]

There. Fixed that for you.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

[Rebecca]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

What fucking error?!

The fucking error of our ways,of course.
Poor Hugo.Spends so much time badgering people who don't have the humility to agree that he is right all the time.
Even has the goodness to post links to his own blog in case we realise that he is doing all in his power to educate us and want to read even more of his thoughts.
To little avail.
Makes my heart bleed,especially seeing as I usually scroll straight past his posts.
Makes my heart bleed.

[SpinningHugo]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

They are very bad indeed. Labour is in its worst state since, well, when? Worse than 1980. Worse than 1931. I think you have to go back to pre-WW1 to find Labour in a weaker situation.

[SpinningHugo]

it is really an odd thing to me how many on this board think that 172 Labour MPs are, well what. Evil Blairites? Dupes? differently to me. [/quote="SpinningHugo"]

There. Fixed that for you.

Yes, that is fair. i think the same way as 172 MPs, including the once very popular Ed Miliband. Most people here don't. I am, honestly, completely baffled by it.

Some of the regulars, RoT, AK, do think Corbyn should go but don't want to get into an argument about it of course, but the bulk don't.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

They are very bad indeed. Labour is in its worst state since, well, when? Worse than 1980. Worse than 1931. I think you have to go back to pre-WW1 to find Labour in a weaker situation.

But that's mainly due to Scotland and stuff that happened before Corbyn was leader. If you think Angela Eagle can suddenly fix all that, you're seriously deluded! (And else don't reply to say you never suggested Eagle did anything - it's figurative )

[ephemerid]

I blame men over 5ft.8women over 5ft.5,and all with moustaches regardless.

OMG!!!!!!

It's all my fault!

I'm 5'6'' and the Immac isn't working!!!!!!

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa........

[StephenDolan]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

They are very bad indeed. Labour is in its worst state since, well, when? Worse than 1980. Worse than 1931. I think you have to go back to pre-WW1 to find Labour in a weaker situation.

Wow.
You're going to need a bigger boat with bait like that.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in. But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Pure speculation, as I am not privy to Corbyn's inner thoughts, but I think the coup came close to succeeding. I am sure he wants to go, he looked haunted last week. The hiding him from Watson, the refusal to let MPs meet him individually, McDonnell going into meetings and answering questions for him, were all efforts to shore up his resolve to stay. The "coup" didn't work because the ordinary rules don't apply. Any other leader would have quit. His loyalty is to his faction overrides that: he'd be betraying it if he quit.

He looked awful. The "coup" seemed to ease off a bit at that point, partly because it had nowhere much to go, but partly I think because of how bad he looked.

I don't think he knows what to do. It's not like he's announced any changes like getting rid of Milne that might have shown him listening. I don't think he sees himself as PM at 71, as I've said before.

[mbc1955]

it is really an odd thing to me how many on this board think that 172 Labour MPs are, well what. Evil Blairites? Dupes? differently to me. [/quote="SpinningHugo"]

There. Fixed that for you.

Yes, that is fair. i think the same way as 172 MPs, including the once very popular Ed Miliband. Most people here don't. I am, honestly, completely baffled by it.

Some of the regulars, RoT, AK, do think Corbyn should go but don't want to get into an argument about it of course, but the bulk don't.

Ye gods, I take the trouble to point out that you are blinded by your own opinions to the extent that you cannot conceive of how anyone can possibly disagree with you, and you take it as a compliment?

Ipso fatso, my case rests.

[ohsocynical]

Worst. Coup. Ever.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0009.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

[tinybgoat]

3. I don't want a 'coup'. I want him to lose in a stand up fight. Hard to achieve though.

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

Dear Aunt Hugo,
I bought a car last year,(nice little red one)
I'm reasonably happy with said car
It does all I want at the moment,
though admittedly i've only gone for local drives,
and am not sure how it will handle on longer journeys.
I've recently been contacted (cold calling) by a large number of salespeople, telling me my car is unsuitable, and I should dump it and buy another one.
Thing is none of them will specify what's wrong with my car, or give any details about these 'better cars'.
They're now saying I'm behaving unreasonably.
What should I do?

(I have to admit I don't drive, so this may not be a good analogy, but something similar worked for one button monkey)

[HindleA]

I blame men over 5ft.8women over 5ft.5,and all with moustaches regardless.

OMG!!!!!!

It's all my fault!

I'm 5'6'' and the Immac isn't working!!!!!!

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa........

I am a smallgit(all right reserved)so I mysteriously escaped blame by 3.5inches under male,and sneaked under if female.

[Tubby Isaacs]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

Social policy and economic policy aren't that different- even Umunna has said that.

The trouble is that they don't trust Corbyn on foreign policy. He isn't just a bloke who calls out illegal wars, he's been the full on anti-Westerner for 30 odd years.

Trident has an obvious solution- free vote, most likely to go through on Tory votes anyway. I've no idea if the review group is even still sitting.

[StephenDolan]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

Can you outline how having a leader as passionate for Remain as yourself would change the outcome of if, when A50 is implemented?

[SpinningHugo]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

Dear Aunt Hugo,
I bought a car last year,(nice little red one)
I'm reasonably happy with said car
It does all I want at the moment,
though admittedly i've only gone for local drives,
and am not sure how it will handle on longer journeys.
I've recently been contacted (cold calling) by a large number of salespeople, telling me my car is unsuitable, and I should dump it and buy another one.
Thing is none of them will specify what's wrong with my car, or give any details about these 'better cars'.
They're now saying I'm behaving unreasonably.
What should I do?

(I have to admit I don't drive, so this may not be a good analogy, but something similar worked for one button monkey)

Ok

Our relations with the EU.

That is an important policy issue. Corbyn is on the wrong side of it. Unless you are one of the members of the far left secretly gleeful that we are leaving the EU.

Ditch the car.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

They are very bad indeed. Labour is in its worst state since, well, when? Worse than 1980. Worse than 1931. I think you have to go back to pre-WW1 to find Labour in a weaker situation.

I think it's seriously vulnerable, with a poor leader, who can seemingly attract people to join just to vote for him. But if he comes up with a plan, like Anatoly suggested, then things are much better again. Most of the worst people will disappear when Corbyn goes.

I'd add to what Anatoly said, that Corbyn could seek a role for himself as eg Shadow Health Secretary.

[HindleA]

Immac probably not working because it has been called Veet for some years.Not divulging how I know such useless information.

[SpinningHugo]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

Can you outline how having a leader as passionate for Remain as yourself would change the outcome of if, when A50 is implemented?

Wrong question.

What we need is a leader who doesn't want Art 50 to be implemented, and does all he can to stop it. We need a party that led by someone who isn't a closet Brexiter.

On art 50, this is my view

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it isn't inevitable we will be leaving the EU, and we need a pro-European in charge.

(There are lots of other substantive policy reasons why Corbyn should go, but this is the most pressing.)

[howsillyofme1]

Good afternoon to everyone ( well apart from one person)

I am a bit perplexed as to why we are still discussing all this....I think we have all expressed our views and as far as I can see there is no reason why anyone will have changed their views

I suggest anybody who is not aware of the views of people on here goes to look at previous threads and then toddle off back to wherever they go when not annoying us here

The current interest for me is what damage has been done by the sight of Blair refusing to acknowledge the Chilcott report in any way that does not seem insincere

Also Labour is seeming to be becoming a significant movement with, if reports are correct, almost 600 000 members.

On another point any further news on the war that has broken out between Angela Eagle and the local CLP...Will she be a Labour candidate nevermind leader at the next election? I hope it is resolvable but if she wants to set an example then perhaps she should resign the whip and sit as an Independent as she seems not to have the confidence of her local party now?

[howsillyofme1]

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

Can you outline how having a leader as passionate for Remain as yourself would change the outcome of if, when A50 is implemented?

Wrong question.

What we need is a leader who doesn't want Art 50 to be implemented, and does all he can to stop it. We need a party that led by someone who isn't a closet Brexiter.

On art 50, this is my view

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it isn't inevitable we will be leaving the EU, and we need a pro-European in charge.

(There are lots of other substantive policy reasons why Corbyn should go, but this is the most pressing.)

Bollocks

[danesclose]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in.

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.

But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

[JonnyT1234]

The PLP are a "small right group"?

Not what I said.

Had a much longer answer but deleted it because, meh, cannot be bothered to retread this ground again, again.

[tinyclanger2]

oh dear leadsom in the final 2

[tinyclanger2]

How am a living in a world where Theresa May seems to be my best hope?

[Tubby Isaacs]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

[howsillyofme1]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

Social policy and economic policy aren't that different- even Umunna has said that.

The trouble is that they don't trust Corbyn on foreign policy. He isn't just a bloke who calls out illegal wars, he's been the full on anti-Westerner for 30 odd years.

Trident has an obvious solution- free vote, most likely to go through on Tory votes anyway. I've no idea if the review group is even still sitting.

Does that mean Labour should have no policies that differ from the Tories as the Tories can win all votes?

I for one am glad of a debate on Trident. It is a colloidal waste of money and is part of the same philosophy that has been behind the Brexit vote in an overestimating of the reality of our place in the world

[StephenDolan]

May v Leadsom. Interesting.

I'm going to take a break, the dismissive tone's getting annoying.

Seeya.

[howsillyofme1]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

Dear Aunt Hugo,
I bought a car last year,(nice little red one)
I'm reasonably happy with said car
It does all I want at the moment,
though admittedly i've only gone for local drives,
and am not sure how it will handle on longer journeys.
I've recently been contacted (cold calling) by a large number of salespeople, telling me my car is unsuitable, and I should dump it and buy another one.
Thing is none of them will specify what's wrong with my car, or give any details about these 'better cars'.
They're now saying I'm behaving unreasonably.
What should I do?

(I have to admit I don't drive, so this may not be a good analogy, but something similar worked for one button monkey)

Ok

Our relations with the EU.

That is an important policy issue. Corbyn is on the wrong side of it. Unless you are one of the members of the far left secretly gleeful that we are leaving the EU.

Ditch the car.

More bollocks

[howsillyofme1]

May v Leadsom. Interesting.

I'm going to take a break, the dismissive tone's getting annoying.

Seeya.

See you soon mate

[ohsocynical]

I bet she, Leadsom gets in.

A puppet head of State again. Big business will be pleased.

[ephemerid]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

Dear Aunt Hugo,
I bought a car last year,(nice little red one)
I'm reasonably happy with said car
It does all I want at the moment,
though admittedly i've only gone for local drives,
and am not sure how it will handle on longer journeys.
I've recently been contacted (cold calling) by a large number of salespeople, telling me my car is unsuitable, and I should dump it and buy another one.
Thing is none of them will specify what's wrong with my car, or give any details about these 'better cars'.
They're now saying I'm behaving unreasonably.
What should I do?

(I have to admit I don't drive, so this may not be a good analogy, but something similar worked for one button monkey)

Before you go any further, Mr/Ms. Goat, please reflect upon the following:

1. You are guilty of not admitting your error. Your car is red, and it is an error to have a red car. In fact, it is strictly verboten to have anything that is in any way red. This includes cars, thoughts, ideas, and political party leaders (especially ones called Ed or Jeremy).

2. You are guilty of asking for advice when the thing you are required to do is be told what sort of car you should buy. Even if you have a pink car, or maybe a yellow one, you are assumed to have a red car. This is an error. (See above)

3. You are guilty of writing to an Agonising Aunt who has only one interest, viz: to ban all red cars and have them removed from public view. This is to be achieved by what is unknown to anyone on the planet as gentle arguing, which is not an error.

Finally - every day you must admit your error and agree, by dint of endless circular arguments (which are gentle), to dispose of your red car and replace it with one which will be recommended to you by someone who knows for a fact before the red car is even on the road that it will not drive well and will cause no end of problems for the entire world for ever.

Buy a blue one.

[howsillyofme1]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes but it was an even bigger error to have made a mess of one that you are in charge of. Mind you it is different from saying you want one to actually doing it.. Corbyn is not the first Labour leader to promise one

That blame goes to Cameron....he actually did it and did not manage to win!

But Cameron is considered to be Prime Ministerial for some reason

[tinyclanger2]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes.

The European Union (Referendum) Bill 2013-14 was a private member's bill of the Parliament of the United Kingdom designed to make provision for a referendum on membership of the European Union to be held in 2017 following renegotiation of terms between the European Union and the United Kingdom government. The bill ceased to be considered by Parliament after January 2014 and did not become law.[1] However, a subsequent bill with the same objective, the European Union Referendum Act 2015, was introduced by the newly-elected Conservative government in May 2015 was passed and received royal assent on 17 December 2015.

The act makes no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The result of the referendum is to be a single majority vote of all four constituent countries of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar with no super majorities, double majorities or any minimum turnout threshold required for the vote to pass which will be declared by Chief Counting Officer (CCO) Jenny Watson at Manchester Town Hall on Friday 24 June 2016. The act does not specify any specific consequences that would follow the result of the referendum. In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide under what circumstances to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.[15] European Union law would remain enforceable in the United Kingdom unless the European Communities Act 1972 were repealed.[6]

[ephemerid]

Well done, Hugo!

Once again, your tedious patronising self-serving crapola has driven people away.

Hope you're happy now.

[citizenJA]

Andy Burnham ‏@andyburnhammp · 1d1 day ago London, England

We did it! Commons votes by 245-2 to secure status of EU nationals in the UK. Govt can't now retreat on this. Thanks to everyone who helped.

Pleased this happened, very.

After the motion passed, Burnham said: “Today’s debate exposed the weakness of the government’s position.
MPs firmly rejected Theresa May’s decision to link the status of EU nationals with British nationals living elsewhere
in Europe.

It was disappointing that someone who is seeking to lead our nation failed to turn up to the debate and provide
the leadership that the country is currently crying out for."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... u-migrants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my emphasis)

I appreciate Burnham's pointed reference. I understand it's a non-binding Opposition Day vote and Tory government may have felt
it unnecessary to attend. The absence of the Tory candidate reflects the carelessness of their leadership. Current government
initiated an act placing UK and EU nationals, individual human beings, in insecure positions due to a lack of planning for the
outcome of the EU referendum vote. The first and last duty of leadership is to show up. Tory government's self-indulgent
leadership campaigns aren't the country's or peoples' problem. I'm disgusted by the irresponsibility and lack of accountable
leadership.