FlyTheNest

RobertSnozers wrote:

PorFavor wrote:Despite what I said the other day about Owen Smith's back-story having put me off him, I've been quite impressed by him over the leadership issue and, unless he seriously cocks things up to cause me to feel otherwise, I shan't have much of a problem in voting for him. I shall continue to be vigilant, however.

I'm genuinely unsure. His voting record on TheyWorkForYou looks pretty OK, but his voting for airstrikes in Syria and Iraq worries me. The main thing is an illogical and as yet unshakeable feeling that he is not to be trusted, and other than his role in the recent business I can't figure out why.

If the PLP accepts him as they seem to have done, then he's Blue Labour through and through.
Sorry if the term offends but that's what you'll be voting for.

ohsocynical wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:

PorFavor wrote:Despite what I said the other day about Owen Smith's back-story having put me off him, I've been quite impressed by him over the leadership issue and, unless he seriously cocks things up to cause me to feel otherwise, I shan't have much of a problem in voting for him. I shall continue to be vigilant, however.

I'm genuinely unsure. His voting record on TheyWorkForYou looks pretty OK, but his voting for airstrikes in Syria and Iraq worries me. The main thing is an illogical and as yet unshakeable feeling that he is not to be trusted, and other than his role in the recent business I can't figure out why.

If the PLP accepts him as they seem to have done, then he's Blue Labour through and through.
Sorry if the term offends but that's what you'll be voting for.

Apart from the sneaky coup stuff,Smith has only been an MP since 2010,is that right?
He cannot have the experience to be party leader.

I can't trust someone who appears to think that an attempted coup is a logical and rational way to force changes they want when there is a perfectly legitimate challenge process that could be initiated. To me that demonstrates arrogance instead of negotiation as the preferred way of dealing with different viewpoints.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... gela-eagle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Photo: Smith with sleeves rolled up.

A la Fishpointer General.

Personally I don't give a toss what label he or others ascribe to him .I am pure Tory,RedTory,Toblerbloodymory according to some based on purely a divergence of view on one thing.How would Attlee be described ,commissioner of nuclear deterrence,sent troops to Malaya and Korea,against the general strike,I hate to think.

The most progressive measures in my area of interest were instigated,pursued and ensured by nominally right wingers,they would probably be faced with repeated calls of deselection.I am fervent ignorer of labels.

Fwiw, it wouldn't matter if Smith was Corbyn without a beard. He'd get the same shit from the PLP even if he was 'competent'. It's not the competence that's the problem with Corbyn, it's his politics. The same way that it was Miliband's politics.

So, Smith will be Corbyn-like for the votes then shift ever rightwards once he's won. Either by force or by desire. It doesn't matter which, it's where he'll end up. And the lesson of Corbyn's winning last year will be ignored and forgotten by the PLP, as will the members again.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 44931.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour shuts down fund set up for people who cannot afford to pay £25 for leadership election vote
Labour says page which raised over £14,000 in three days violated party rules

Sorry if we've had this already.
I remember being perturbed at the last two leadership elections that I wasn't wild about any of the contenders on offer (weighing up skills/integrity and likelihood of swaying the bizarre representatives of the species formerly known as Homo sapiens that make up the soon to disband UK).

I remain unwild.

It's a trivial point, but I have never knowingly spent time with anyone who rolls their sleeves up like that.
(Actually it reminds me of the late 70s except there would be jacket with sleeves equally rolled).

Gerri Peev ‏@GerriPeev 5m5 minutes ago

Angela Eagle about to withdraw her fledgling candidacy for Labour leadership. Will possibly tell the party: 'I have no egrets'

ohsocynical wrote:Gerri Peev ‏@GerriPeev 5m5 minutes ago

Angela Eagle about to withdraw her fledgling candidacy for Labour leadership. Will possibly tell the party: 'I have no egrets'

Ornothologically unsound but very funny. Thank you

Nicola Sturgeon 'never claimed to have veto on Brexit process or Article 50', says spokesperson

It's like living in some neverending nightmare of Chinese whispers.

JonnyT1234 wrote:Fwiw, it wouldn't matter if Smith was Corbyn without a beard. He'd get the same shit from the PLP even if he was 'competent'. It's not the competence that's the problem with Corbyn, it's his politics. The same way that it was Miliband's politics.

So, Smith will be Corbyn-like for the votes then shift ever rightwards once he's won. Either by force or by desire. It doesn't matter which, it's where he'll end up. And the lesson of Corbyn's winning last year will be ignored and forgotten by the PLP, as will the members again.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking that if he (Owen Smith) wins the leadership vote I'll only really know if he's a good'un if a small but vocal (and media-loved) group of MPs tries to undermine him.

(Although, in the case of Jeremy Corbyn, I think a lot of those in the PLP who would like to see the back of him have valid reasons for thinking that way. For quite a few, as for me, it's not ideological; for others it's a mixture, and for some it is purely ideological - although this last grouping may like to pretend differently and it would be helpful if they would be honest.)



Edited - typo

PorFavor wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:Fwiw, it wouldn't matter if Smith was Corbyn without a beard. He'd get the same shit from the PLP even if he was 'competent'. It's not the competence that's the problem with Corbyn, it's his politics. The same way that it was Miliband's politics.

So, Smith will be Corbyn-like for the votes then shift ever rightwards once he's won. Either by force or by desire. It doesn't matter which, it's where he'll end up. And the lesson of Corbyn's winning last year will be ignored and forgotten by the PLP, as will the members again.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking that if he (Owen Smith) wins the leadership vote I'll only really know if he's a good'un if a small but vocal (and media-loved) group of MPs tries to undermine him.

(Although, in the case of Jeremy Corbyn, I think a lot of those in the PLP who would like to see the back of him have valid reasons for thinking that way. For quite a few, as for me, it's not ideological; For others it's a mixture, and for some it is purely ideological - although this last grouping may like to pretend differently and it would be helpful if they would be honest.)

Soon to be edited?

A new cross-party movement for progressive liberalism that could endorse candidates in favour of the EU and immigration at the next election is being set up by politicians, celebrities and intellectuals. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... e-movement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But what have the EU, immigrants ... or intellectuals ever done for ME?

I think that quite a bit of Corbyn's problems could be helped if Seamus Milne was moved on. He doesn't seem to have been effective, at all, at working the media or getting Corbyn's message across to people.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

JonnyT1234 wrote:Fwiw, it wouldn't matter if Smith was Corbyn without a beard. He'd get the same shit from the PLP even if he was 'competent'. It's not the competence that's the problem with Corbyn, it's his politics. The same way that it was Miliband's politics.

So, Smith will be Corbyn-like for the votes then shift ever rightwards once he's won. Either by force or by desire. It doesn't matter which, it's where he'll end up. And the lesson of Corbyn's winning last year will be ignored and forgotten by the PLP, as will the members again.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking that if he (Owen Smith) wins the leadership vote I'll only really know if he's a good'un if a small but vocal (and media-loved) group of MPs tries to undermine him.

(Although, in the case of Jeremy Corbyn, I think a lot of those in the PLP who would like to see the back of him have valid reasons for thinking that way. For quite a few, as for me, it's not ideological; For others it's a mixture, and for some it is purely ideological - although this last grouping may like to pretend differently and it would be helpful if they would be honest.)

Soon to be edited?

Er - yes! How did you guess? I was on the cusp when you, as usual, beat me to it. I have now inserted the space (above).

@PaulfromYorkshire

Bumboils! I've just spotted that you've immortalised the other one.

You can go off people . . . .

PorFavor wrote:@PaulfromYorkshire

Bumboils! I've just spotted that you've immortalised the other one.

You can go off people . . . .

Don't worry I'll change it

There you go PF nobody need ever know

And another thing -

Things are looking grim in Turkey. No doubt Mr E will have everyone's unswerving support until he doesn't. And I fear for what will happen then.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:There you go PF nobody need ever know

Ha! Thank you. It will be our secret!

PorFavor wrote:And another thing -

Things are looking grim in Turkey. No doubt Mr E will have everyone's unswerving support until he doesn't. And I fear for what will happen then.

Yes I agree. As I said to a friend recently, a civil war in Turkey could be unimaginably disastrous.

refitman wrote:I think that quite a bit of Corbyn's problems could be helped if Seamus Milne was moved on. He doesn't seem to have been effective, at all, at working the media or getting Corbyn's message across to people.

On the one hand, I agree that he was and probably still is an incredibly narrow minded journalist, with the range of Jemima Puddleduck, and his removal from any post would be an improvement, but I don't think that's going to improve Corbyn's chances to getting his message over with the media we have in this country.

PorFavor wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

PorFavor wrote: Funnily enough, I was just thinking that if he (Owen Smith) wins the leadership vote I'll only really know if he's a good'un if a small but vocal (and media-loved) group of MPs tries to undermine him.

(Although, in the case of Jeremy Corbyn, I think a lot of those in the PLP who would like to see the back of him have valid reasons for thinking that way. For quite a few, as for me, it's not idealogical; For others it's a mixture, and for some it is purely idealogical - although this last grouping may like to pretend differently and it would be helpful if they would be honest.)

Soon to be edited?

Er - yes! How did you guess? I was on the cusp when you, as usual, beat me to it. I have now inserted the space (above).

Errm, I think that some revisiting of the post might also be in order under ideal logical conditions rather than following some random ideology...

*edit* Ah. And there I was away searching for my shifty emoticon and missed the parade.

@HobieJoe - brilliant

They are discussing Owen's record on my local Lab Party Facebook page.


Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill - Owen Smith was ABSENT for this vote

Halt Further Spending and Welfare Cuts and Investigation Impact of Austerity Measures - ABSENT

Spending Cuts, Welfare Changes and Trident - Also ABSENT

Trident - Owen Smith voted IN FAVOUR

Anti-abuse rule to tackle abusive tax avoidance, to raise the basic income tax free allowance, and to support other tax changes proposed in the Finance Bill. - VOTED AGAINST

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill — Combating Abusive Tax Avoidance Arrangements - ABSENT

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:There you go PF nobody need ever know

I saw it.

ohsocynical wrote:They are discussing Owen's record on my local Lab Party Facebook page.


Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill - Owen Smith was ABSENT for this vote

Halt Further Spending and Welfare Cuts and Investigation Impact of Austerity Measures - ABSENT

Spending Cuts, Welfare Changes and Trident - Also ABSENT

Trident - Owen Smith voted IN FAVOUR

Anti-abuse rule to tackle abusive tax avoidance, to raise the basic income tax free allowance, and to support other tax changes proposed in the Finance Bill. - VOTED AGAINST

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill — Combating Abusive Tax Avoidance Arrangements - ABSENT

Personally, I wouldn't read much into "absent" for votes. For a start, we won't know why he wasn't there. Also, he would most likely be paired with a voter from the other side so it shouldn't affect the overall outcome.

tinyclanger2 wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:There you go PF nobody need ever know

I saw it.

Saw what? Nobody else saw anything . . .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44531.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm afraid I have to agree with Ms Christofi. Am sick to death of having to listen to people's kids screaming on planes, trains, in restaurants, in pubs. Indeed people as a whole don't half make a racket these days.

(ducks for cover emoticon)

Anne Perkins has come to the conclusion that the reason Eagle failed in her attempt at becoming Labour leader was not that her only policy was "I'm not Jeremy", it wasn't that she fannied around for (what seemed like ever) before announcing that should was going to announce. It wasn't even that she so badly timed the actual announcement that all the journalists ran away.

No, it's because she's a woman.

Hobiejoe wrote:

*edit* Ah. And there I was away searching for my shifty emoticon and missed the parade.

emoticon envy

PorFavor wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:There you go PF nobody need ever know

I saw it.

Saw what? Nobody else saw anything . . .

[youtube]s6jYoagXmZE[/youtube]
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

refitman wrote:

ohsocynical wrote:They are discussing Owen's record on my local Lab Party Facebook page.


Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill - Owen Smith was ABSENT for this vote

Halt Further Spending and Welfare Cuts and Investigation Impact of Austerity Measures - ABSENT

Spending Cuts, Welfare Changes and Trident - Also ABSENT

Trident - Owen Smith voted IN FAVOUR

Anti-abuse rule to tackle abusive tax avoidance, to raise the basic income tax free allowance, and to support other tax changes proposed in the Finance Bill. - VOTED AGAINST

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill — Combating Abusive Tax Avoidance Arrangements - ABSENT

Personally, I wouldn't read much into "absent" for votes. For a start, we won't know why he wasn't there. Also, he would most likely be paired with a voter from the other side so it shouldn't affect the overall outcome.

This is his full voting record
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24797 ... ridd/votes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dogs now happy.

refitman wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote: I saw it.

Saw what? Nobody else saw anything . . .

[youtube]s6jYoagXmZE[/youtube]
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I spent ages looking for it and missed it .....

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome Jul 18

Tom Watson suggests Unite members could oust Len McCluskey over Jeremy Corbyn support http://bit.ly/29OJgej" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom needs to shut up.

AngryAsWell wrote:

refitman wrote:

ohsocynical wrote:They are discussing Owen's record on my local Lab Party Facebook page.


Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill - Owen Smith was ABSENT for this vote

Halt Further Spending and Welfare Cuts and Investigation Impact of Austerity Measures - ABSENT

Spending Cuts, Welfare Changes and Trident - Also ABSENT

Trident - Owen Smith voted IN FAVOUR

Anti-abuse rule to tackle abusive tax avoidance, to raise the basic income tax free allowance, and to support other tax changes proposed in the Finance Bill. - VOTED AGAINST

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill — Combating Abusive Tax Avoidance Arrangements - ABSENT

Personally, I wouldn't read much into "absent" for votes. For a start, we won't know why he wasn't there. Also, he would most likely be paired with a voter from the other side so it shouldn't affect the overall outcome.

This is his full voting record
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24797 ... ridd/votes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That looks like a good record (I haven't delved any deeper). The welfare bill vote, I lay squarely on Harman, trying to stitch up Burnham and buggering the rest of the party at the same time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44096.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The health select committee said the Government had given a misleading impression of how much funding is received by the NHS, with the actual figure only about half of what the Tories promised in their 2015 general election manifesto.

refitman wrote:Anne Perkins has come to the conclusion that the reason Eagle failed in her attempt at becoming Labour leader was not ...

No, it's because she's a woman.

Just followed your link, refitman, and having read the article wanted to add that it must also be that Ms. Eagle is not a Scot. I don't usually explain myself but in this case an oblique reference to Kezia Dugdale. Sadly comments are closed.

ohsocynical wrote:

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome Jul 18

Tom Watson suggests Unite members could oust Len McCluskey over Jeremy Corbyn support http://bit.ly/29OJgej" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom needs to shut up.

Tom Watson hasn't come out of any of this very well. In my opinion, Jeremy Corbyn can't lead and hasn't been helped by Tom Watson being a crap Deputy. Not that I had any faith in him to kick off with. He's much too full of his own importance. Which alone rather ruled him out, for me at any rate, as an effective deputy for anyone.

ohsocynical wrote:

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome Jul 18

Tom Watson suggests Unite members could oust Len McCluskey over Jeremy Corbyn support http://bit.ly/29OJgej" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom needs to shut up.

What on earth has got into them all?
It is so not up to Tom Watson to try to oust the head of Unite.
I am becoming heartily sick of Labour.

refitman wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:

refitman wrote: Personally, I wouldn't read much into "absent" for votes. For a start, we won't know why he wasn't there. Also, he would most likely be paired with a voter from the other side so it shouldn't affect the overall outcome.

This is his full voting record
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24797 ... ridd/votes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That looks like a good record (I haven't delved any deeper). The welfare bill vote, I lay squarely on Harman, trying to stitch up Burnham and buggering the rest of the party at the same time.

The welfare bill vote explained
http://www.hilarybennmp.com/labour_s_po ... _work_bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The reason we abstained on the subsequent vote was precisely because of the things in the Bill that we do support; ie three million apprenticeships, lower rents for social housing, and more investment in the troubled families programme. It isn’t quite as simple as being against all of the Bill or for all of it."

"There has also been confusion about the Tories’ shocking plan to cut tax credits. These proposals are not in the Welfare Bill. They will be introduced later in the year by another parliamentary procedure called a 'statutory instrument' and I will vote against them at that time."

RobertSnozers wrote:

PorFavor wrote:Despite what I said the other day about Owen Smith's back-story having put me off him, I've been quite impressed by him over the leadership issue and, unless he seriously cocks things up to cause me to feel otherwise, I shan't have much of a problem in voting for him. I shall continue to be vigilant, however.

I'm genuinely unsure. His voting record on TheyWorkForYou looks pretty OK, but his voting for airstrikes in Syria and Iraq worries me. The main thing is an illogical and as yet unshakeable feeling that he is not to be trusted, and other than his role in the recent business I can't figure out why.

I get a strong feeling of distrust about him as well. Maybe it's because he comes across to me as a slippery, shiny-suited, shiny-faced extra-confident PR man. Which he is, previously for Pfizer, now for Smith and his mates. Such beings have a knack of very convincingly saying and appearing to do whatever they think will work best for them. They also tend to be pretty unprincipled, seeing every question and issue in terms of how to win the PR game rather than working out the best answer to the question and setting out to convince people to support it.

A Smith victory is, I expect, highly likely to be fanfared far and wide as a "devastating defeat for the loony Left" and I suspect will be used in the same way Blair used the removal of the old Clause 4 to further hollow out the party and unions.

Three million apprenticeships, AAW? I really wish our politicians would acknowledge that most of these are simply not apprenticeships at all but just another means to undercut wages. Many of them appear to be induction courses for minimum wage jobs and they ain't even restricted to youthful first employment. Just another example of government hijacking of language... and all of parliament joins in.

God. I really want Brexit to go away. But every time I wake up, it's still there. I do wonder (involuntarily from time to time) whether half the people who voted for it will actually follow when, how - and even whether - it happens.

You know that moment, when you've been refreshing the page waiting for more posts, only to notice we're now on a new page...?

No?

Just me then

utopiandreams wrote:

refitman wrote:Anne Perkins has come to the conclusion that the reason Eagle failed in her attempt at becoming Labour leader was not ...

No, it's because she's a woman.

Just followed your link, refitman, and having read the article wanted to add that it must also be that Ms. Eagle is not a Scot. I don't usually explain myself but in this case an oblique reference to Kezia Dugdale. Sadly comments are closed.

Anne Perkins is one of those journalists for whom gender is absolute. Irrespective of the actual abilities or qualities required for the position (or more likely, the lack of these), no woman can ever be rejected for anything except on the grounds of being a woman. It's monotonous, it's mindless and it disqualifies such a writer from having a serious opinion about anything.

refitman wrote:You know that moment, when you've been refreshing the page waiting for more posts, only to notice we're now on a new page...?

No?

Just me then

Oh, thank goodness. I thought it was just me. Still, I find it passes the time. Lots of time . . .

refitman wrote:You know that moment, when you've been refreshing the page waiting for more posts, only to notice we're now on a new page...?

No?

Just me then

Oh, I've done that many a time - just don't admit to it though...