Re: Wednesday 27th July 2016
Posted: Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:38 pm
Always good to read you, my friendephemerid wrote:And - as the atmosphere here remains a bit tetchy I'll bugger off again, I think.
Always good to read you, my friendephemerid wrote:And - as the atmosphere here remains a bit tetchy I'll bugger off again, I think.
This is not a giveaway sign of his general attitude from the outside without a more immediate context, SH. For example was Cameron's initial response already out there? Was it a statement or an answer to a posed question? On one thing I do agree with him however, dithering over Article 50 or kicking it into the long grass is not acceptable, no matter how much I disagree with the result. I just wish some constitutional rebuttal had been available at the time. For this I hold Cameron mostly to blame but do not excuse Labour for voting with the government for a referendum after the GE.SpinningHugo wrote:... Once the campaign was lost, Corbyn's first response on BBC Radio 4 the next morning was to suggest that Brexit meant Brexit and article 50 should be invoked immediately. This was a giveaway sign of his general attitude...
Too lazy to check. I read he was born in England. Grew up in Barry? Is that right?Temulkar wrote:He didnt actually grow up on the coalfields, of course, so he didnt see the kids he was growing up with clothes slowly fall apart at school, or take beef and salmon spread sarnies down to the picket line at lunctimes. Both things to be fair to him Adam Price went through + did (he was a full on militant socialist as a kid) but I would say a lot of us stuck in the middle of it came of age politically at that point. Smith's only a year older than me, so I can understand where he is coming from even if it strikes me as rather shallow.Rebecca wrote:Had an email from Owen Smith.
He grew up in South Wales during the miners' strike.
That's when he decided to become a corporate lobbyist and pr man for big pharma,sorry ,should have written,that's when he came alive politically.
My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.
after MPs had resigned from the shadow cabinet after Jamie Reed announced he wouldn't serve under Corbyn as the result was being announced that Corbyn was to be leader.JonnyT1234 wrote:"Corbyn acted first: by sacking Benn in the middle of the night" after Benn had leaked his betrayal of Corbyn to the press and admitted that he had betrayed him, late at night, with the aim of forcing Corbyn's hand or face being made to look weak and ineffective, having previously trailed in the Telegraph weeks earlier exactly how he and his fellow plotters would do this, thus triggering the very accurately described coup against Corbyn's leadership. You neglected to add.
RobertSnozers wrote:Mass resignations timed for media effect and repeated demands without any backing in law or process for the elected leader to resign along with a spurious and unconstitutional no-confidence vote do not constitute a challenge under the rules.SpinningHugo wrote:RobertSnozers wrote:What's your definition of a coup?
A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government is my definition.
So use of the word 'coup' is inapposite in almost every way. This isn't against a government. It isn't violent (save for the odd brick through a window) and it isn't illegal (it is a challenge under the rules).
Yeah his dad is a well respected historian - a lot on 20th century stuff. I was born in Wiltshire, so Im not going to hold that against him, the welsh diaspoara get everywhere.ohsocynical wrote:Too lazy to check. I read he was born in England. Grew up in Barry? Is that right?Temulkar wrote:He didnt actually grow up on the coalfields, of course, so he didnt see the kids he was growing up with clothes slowly fall apart at school, or take beef and salmon spread sarnies down to the picket line at lunctimes. Both things to be fair to him Adam Price went through + did (he was a full on militant socialist as a kid) but I would say a lot of us stuck in the middle of it came of age politically at that point. Smith's only a year older than me, so I can understand where he is coming from even if it strikes me as rather shallow.Rebecca wrote:Had an email from Owen Smith.
He grew up in South Wales during the miners' strike.
That's when he decided to become a corporate lobbyist and pr man for big pharma,sorry ,should have written,that's when he came alive politically.
My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.
Amen to all of that as someone with several hundred years worth of Cumbrian/Northumbrian mining on one side of my family. Tellingly, it's that destruction of community that New Labour and the right of the Labour today also still just do not get. Excuse my French, but fuck the mines. I'm delighted I'm not down one of them right now and never will be.Temulkar wrote:My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.
The fact that the Guardian used very close variants of each of those headlines at the time is when I finally gave up on the paper as a reliable source of information about anything. It hasn't got any better since, has it.ohsocynical wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:The fact that the Guardian used very close variants of each of those headlines at the time is when I finally gave up on the paper as a reliable source of information about anything. It hasn't got any better since, has it.ohsocynical wrote:
I wish the same for Corbyn as the post above demonstrates.yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
Are we not to criticise Smith then?yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?
Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.
Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?
Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.
People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ?
Rebecca wrote:Are we not to criticise Smith then?yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
I said I don't trust him.I don't,sorry.
He is a pr man,and you do not get to be a top level corporate lobbyist for pharma without being as slick as shit.
Anyway,it's probably just as well you left Labour.
What with having to support Corbyn because he is criticised and lied about,then doing the same for Smith,your head would be spinning like that scary girl in the movie!
As my mum used to say,it will all come out in the wash.We will see what happens in September.
And if the Labour MPs rally round,do their bloody job,support the leader and fight the tories.
If Corbyn wins do you envisage the PLP getting behind him and helping push his policies through?yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?
Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.
Surely they are policies to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ? They are good if Corbyn puts them forward, not if Smith does ? Corbyn can't be a Blairite Red Tory, and put forward some of those policies.
Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
Sadly, very likely. Leopards don't change their spots.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.
People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ? It is obvious.
Well thank you...frog222 wrote:Morning all
Hindle's link from
If Lost Soul is around, my recipe for avoiding political indigestion and clear the mind, is to time-travel by reading a historical novel or other history, and also get outside, if not housebound!
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1244 ... ast_Mughal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Last Mughal is a mighty read, brilliant research . I don't think I would have bought it new, but just came across it second-hand, for €1.
PS currently enjoying the first few pages of Joseph Banks by Patrick O'Brien .
More time-travelling ...
ohsocynical wrote:[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?
Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.
Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?
Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.
People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ?
I said. I'd not seen any positive Tweets from Smith about that or any other important matter. But suddenly he's posting about them?yahyah wrote:Rebecca wrote:Are we not to criticise Smith then?yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
I said I don't trust him.I don't,sorry.
He is a pr man,and you do not get to be a top level corporate lobbyist for pharma without being as slick as shit.
Anyway,it's probably just as well you left Labour.
What with having to support Corbyn because he is criticised and lied about,then doing the same for Smith,your head would be spinning like that scary girl in the movie!
As my mum used to say,it will all come out in the wash.We will see what happens in September.
And if the Labour MPs rally round,do their bloody job,support the leader and fight the tories.
Criticise where it is deserved.
But posting that he doesn't seem to have cared about worker rights, something patently inaccurate, is not acceptable surely.
Maybe it is because of the parochial nature of politics, and an over reliance on Twitter and social media. He had a lot more coverage in the Welsh press earlier in the day, so people know that he has been vocal on employment rights, pensions, steel jobs, etc.
Stick to the facts Man, as the old comedy sketch said. Corbyn wouldn't want disinformation posted, and we all feel aggrieved when he gets maligned.
To answer your first question, yes. But see further below.yahyah wrote:Surely they are policies to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?
Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
Sadly, very likely. Leopards don't change their spots.
People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.yahyah wrote:ohsocynical wrote:[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?
Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.
Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?
Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.
People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ?
Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?
Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.
That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?
It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.SpinningHugo wrote:RobertSnozers wrote:Mass resignations timed for media effect and repeated demands without any backing in law or process for the elected leader to resign along with a spurious and unconstitutional no-confidence vote do not constitute a challenge under the rules.SpinningHugo wrote:
A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government is my definition.
So use of the word 'coup' is inapposite in almost every way. This isn't against a government. It isn't violent (save for the odd brick through a window) and it isn't illegal (it is a challenge under the rules).
I am not sure why you think asking a leader to resign is a coup, is unlawful, or lacks process.
I hereby ask Theresa May to resign.
And the fact that the no confidence vote doesn't have any constitutional effect doesn't mean it was wrongful. Mps can express a collective view through a vote on anything they like (as can we).
And now, he is being challenged under the rules. Just not a coup. Coups don't usually involve counting lots of votes.
Just for clarity, the publication of gender pay gap information is in S78 of the Equality Act 2010, which was taken through Parliament by Harriet Harman. This wasn't enacted by the Coalition govt. Public sector bodies already have to publish that information under S149 of the Act, as well as wider pay & grading data on disability, ethnicity etc on their workforce.ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....
Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.
There are lots more.
They are Corbyn's.
OK, Shirley*.yahyah wrote:Call me simple.
No, not really. When IDS resigned because he had lost the confidence of the Tory party nin Parliament that wasn't a coup either. When your colleagues say "you're crap please go" that isn't a coup. It is being asked to go.ohsocynical wrote:
It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.
Is that better?
That isn't what I said.Rebecca wrote:Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.yahyah wrote:ohsocynical wrote: [My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?
Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?
Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.
That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?
Thousands of them still want him to be party leader,and have been very unhappy with the disgusting behaviour of the PLP.The coup,the bitching,the leaking.
Owen Smith is not going to get a free ride if he beats Jeremy,because he is part of the coup.
The PLP have treated their members like shit over this.
So what,they get rid of Jeremy,put Smith in his place and THEN they suddenly realise that the party needs unity?
Good luck with that.
We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.yahyah wrote:That isn't what I said.Rebecca wrote:Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.yahyah wrote:
Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?
Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.
That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?
Thousands of them still want him to be party leader,and have been very unhappy with the disgusting behaviour of the PLP.The coup,the bitching,the leaking.
Owen Smith is not going to get a free ride if he beats Jeremy,because he is part of the coup.
The PLP have treated their members like shit over this.
So what,they get rid of Jeremy,put Smith in his place and THEN they suddenly realise that the party needs unity?
Good luck with that.
It isn't just two factions. It isn't just black and white. There are grey areas, as Jonny mentioned earlier. People who aren't 100% pro Corbyn, or 100% Smith. Or even 10% for either of them.
It isn't just pro and anti Corbyn. There are people, just like voters in a general election who aren't fixed in their views.
All I am saying is, if we really want more policies for the left, then If...a big if...Smith wins then people who support the policies he has copied from Corbyn [a small amount via Ed too] should unite.
Is that clearer ? I'm sorry I'm incapable of explaining it better.
Also, you like me, liked Ed. Have you not noticed that a lot of the people who are attacking Smith are the same people who undermined Ed too. No, not the Blairites, but those who said Ed was Tory lite etc. That should ring alarm bells.
You'll all be relieved to know I am really going now.
"To say... that parties are natural is not to say that they are perfect. They distort the issues that they create. They produce divisions
in the electorate which very superficially represent the way in which opinion is in fact distributed... They falsify the perspective of
the issues they create... They build about persons allegiance which should go to ideas... Yet when the last criticisms of party have
been made the services they render to a democratic state are inestimable.'
- H J Laski
Grammar of Politics
Communist! Trotskyite! Stalinist!ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....
Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.
There are lots more.
They are Corbyn's.
I appreciate what you're saying. But if not Twitter where? The Press? The Media?yahyah wrote:No, I lied. I'm not going because this is just plain silly.
OhSo. It isn't all about Twitter. Look at the, sorry to be so darned old fashioned, but the news media links. The newspapers. He is clearly talking about workers rights some years ago.
But hey, what would I know ? Maybe the Welsh papers just made it up, and have post dated the articles as an anti-Corbyn conspiracy [that's a joke by the way].
''It isn't on Twitter'' that'll be on Labour's headstone.
Ah. I get it. It's the 'bullying' part you can't admit to.SpinningHugo wrote:No, not really. When IDS resigned because he had lost the confidence of the Tory party nin Parliament that wasn't a coup either. When your colleagues say "you're crap please go" that isn't a coup. It is being asked to go.ohsocynical wrote:
It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.
Is that better?
I'd add a lot more names to the list for the right but if you tried to even it up, there'd be very few left.JonnyT1234 wrote:Hypothetical question:
If the Labour Party were to lose the likes of Mann, Woodcock, Reed, etc plus Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell etc, from the two extremities would it be better off or worse off? Is what's left behind in any shape to contest anything.
There's one rule in this hypothetical - both sides have to go, not one or t'other.