Wednesday 9th November 2016

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:22 pm

Great para from Mason.

'Those who tell you the left has to somehow “reconnect” with people whose minds are full of white supremacy and misogyny must finish the sentence. By what means? By throwing our black brothers and sisters under a bus? Eighty years ago the poets and miners of the International Brigades did not march into battle saying: “Mind you, the fascists have got a point''.'

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:26 pm

yahyah wrote:That's a deal as long as anyone who didn't vote for Corbyn this time around isn't accused of supporting murderers or being Blairites etc.

I thought Corbyn's response to the POTUS result on tv news was good, if a little low key, but when he said that Trump's campaign had been 'nasty and divisive' I wondered how he could do that with a straight face after the vitriol and lies some of his own supporters unleashed against Smith for daring to think he might make a better leader.

I don't see how Corbyn's campaign was like Trump's.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:26 pm

yahyah wrote:and Ed wasn't just nobbled by them, a lot of people who now worship Corbyn's every move hated Ed.

Yes the hard left were critical of him at times, but generally without anything like the vitriol the "right to rule" neo-Blairite brigade had.

IIRC when that group attempted the most serious anti-Ed "coup" in late 2014 both Corbyn and McDonnell said it would be outrageous if he wasn't allowed to lead Labour into the GE.

And yes there were a few dickheads on social media who constantly derided EM from the "left", but all political factions are "blessed" with those.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:28 pm

yahyah wrote:
gilsey wrote:The last paragraph is good.
Donald Trump is a fascist. We shouldn’t be afraid of the word: it’s simple and accurate, and his fascism is hardly unique; it’s just a suppurating outgrowth of the fascism that was already there. Still, this time it’s different. The fascisms of Europe in the 1920s and 30s, or east Asia in the 50s and 60s, or Latin America in the 70s and 80s were all the response of a capitalist order to the terrifying potency of an organised working class. Fascism is what capitalism does when it’s under threat, something always latent but extending in claws when it’s time to fight; it imitates mass movements while never really having the support of the masses. (In Germany, for instance, support for the Nazis was highest among the industrial haute bourgeoisie, and declined through every social stratum; look at Trump’s share of the voter per income band and see the same pattern. The workers didn’t vote for Trump, they just didn’t vote for Clinton either.) But today the organised working class is nowhere to be found. There’s no coherent left-wing movement actively endangering capitalism; the crisis facing the liberal-capitalist order is entirely internal. It’s grinding against its own contradictions, circling the globe to turn back against itself, smashing through its biological and ecological limits and finding nothing on the other side. This is the death spasm, a truly nihilist fascism, the fascism of a global system prickling for enemies to destroy but charging only against itself. There’s no silence in the final and total victory, just an endless war with only one side. It’s not entirely the case, as the slogan puts it, that the only thing capable of defeating the radical right is a radical left. The radical right will defeat itself, sooner or later, even if it’s at the cost of a few tens of millions of lives. We need a radical left so there can be any kind of fight at all.
That's right.
That's because of the kind of fights we get here on FTN and in the real world. The left fights amongst itself.
Always has. Spend their time telling each other to ''rot in hell'' and suchlike.

I don't agree that the only thing capable of defeating the radical right is the radical right.

It requires people from all parts of the political spectrum. Not just the radical left.

Richard Branson, despite what we may think of him, showed that he opposes it in the piece Angry linked earlier.
Archbishop Welby shows he opposes it by saying he is praying for Trump to develop wisdom and grace.
People from the centre, centre left, centre right - as shown by some Tories showing their anti-Trump feelings, all have a place in helping defeat the radical left.

I've been reading about Italy during Mussolini's rise. The left spent more time sitting around arguing about things like whether or not the 'bourgeois' should be allowed any role in the struggle than providing a front against fascism. Sounds familiar ?

That's not an attack on you personally Gilsey, just my opinion.

Basically, you agree that there's no coherent left-wing movement opposing fascism, then. You're just arguing over whether we need a radical left or a progressive coalition. I'd argue that we need both, and are unlikely to get either.
I'm agreeing with the next bit, that I've underlined. I really don't think there's any hope for anything else in the short term, and climate change will see to the long term.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:29 pm

Temulkar wrote:Great para from Mason.

'Those who tell you the left has to somehow “reconnect” with people whose minds are full of white supremacy and misogyny must finish the sentence. By what means? By throwing our black brothers and sisters under a bus? Eighty years ago the poets and miners of the International Brigades did not march into battle saying: “Mind you, the fascists have got a point''.'

I agree with that, but not everyone that voted for Trump is a fascist. If the Democrats don't engage with the 'moderates' among his support, it leaves only the fascists courting them.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:33 pm

yahyah wrote: Blimey, does owning boxed sets make you politically beyond the pale these days ?
We had The Wire, didn't mean I intended to go to Baltimore and become a female StringofBells.

Heh, I don't have anything against box sets per se - just to be absolutely clear

But the fact remains that WW is a vastly overrated programme that provides unhealthy "political porn" for a certain "centrist" SPAD/policy wonk type.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:36 pm

Womble44 wrote:
yahyah wrote:That's a deal as long as anyone who didn't vote for Corbyn this time around isn't accused of supporting murderers or being Blairites etc.

I thought Corbyn's response to the POTUS result on tv news was good, if a little low key, but when he said that Trump's campaign had been 'nasty and divisive' I wondered how he could do that with a straight face after the vitriol and lies some of his own supporters unleashed against Smith for daring to think he might make a better leader.
I don't see how Corbyn's campaign was like Trump's.

Read what I said.

''I wondered how he could do that with a straight face after the vitriol and lies some of his own supporters unleashed...''

Some of his own supporters. Not Corbyn's campaign. See the difference ? And ''some of his own supporters'' not all of his supporters.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote: Blimey, does owning boxed sets make you politically beyond the pale these days ?
We had The Wire, didn't mean I intended to go to Baltimore and become a female StringofBells.
Heh, I don't have anything against box sets per se - just to be absolutely clear

But the fact remains that WW is a vastly overrated programme that provides unhealthy "political porn" for a certain "centrist" SPAD/policy wonk type.

I'm glad you told me that Anatoly.
We're a bit bereft of good American dramas since The Good Wife ended so I had suggested to my husband we got The West Wing as it gets mentioned a lot.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:40 pm

I read what you said, but Trump's campaign itself was nasty and divisive, Corbyn's wasn't. I don't see why Corbyn couldn't observe that about Trump with a straight face. i just thought it was a false equivalence.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:49 pm

Clanger message to species:

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:50 pm

I wasn't saying Corbyn's campaign was like Trump's.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:53 pm

I get that, but you seem to want to blame Corbyn for people that aren't Corbyn. It doesn't seem fair to me, that's all.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:57 pm

Here's another 'it's all the left's fault'. Bollocks.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11 ... r-the-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That this has all happened says less about the bigotry, or even idiocy, of the UK and US electorates, than it does about the utter inadequacy of the left.

I don't agree that the rise of the right is a product of infighting on the left. It's a product of capitalism, which has been able to capture most of the media and thereby perpetuate and enlarge itself to a point beyond rationality in the US and the UK. It can only collapse under its own weight, not through political opposition. IMO.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:58 pm

I wasn't blaming Corbyn for what they did. But I do blame him for not standing up to them sufficiently strongly. I saw him on an informal tv programme with Owen Smith. They were being questioned by the audience. A young man was upset because he knew a Labour member who was being abused because she wasn't a Corbyn supporter. Corbyn patronised him, and was sharp with him rather than seeming concerned about what had happened.

That was number 43 in a list of why I didn't vote for him again this year.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 5:59 pm

Ah, how wonderful to use the post blocking facility.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:04 pm

One thing of note, which doesn't seem to have been mentioned, turnout was still quite low, and a figure as divisive as Trump has probably hit a high point in terms of active support

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:07 pm

I wasn't talking to you, just about you

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:10 pm

Womble44 wrote:One thing of note, which doesn't seem to have been mentioned, turnout was still quite low, and a figure as divisive as Trump has probably hit a high point in terms of active support

Thank you for that thought, it is something to cling onto. Hopefully the only way will be down for him from now on.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:13 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I don't like extremists.
I quite understand that, and despite our differences I find much of the "new" politics rather unnerving as well.

But what has happened in the last few years has happened for reasons.

The "liberal centre" became too snugly secure, too convinced of its own essential correctness (in both practical and moral terms) too ready to dismiss all who were losing out.

People have always pushed back against that sort of thing in the past, and they have done so now.

I find I really need to point out that an awful lot of comfortably off people voted for Brexit and an awful lot of comfortably off people just voted for Trump. I find it unfathomable that the motivations of these people is so little considered, when the motivations of poorer voters attracts so much debate.

The financial global crash threatened the comfortable worlds of the better off. The reaction to which is to try to hang on to what they have, no matter what. The far right give them excuses as to why it's OK to take from the poorest to make themselves better off in an age of lower growth. Of course eventually they may find themselves next on the list to pay the price of propping up the fortunes of the wealthy elite who should have been the real victims of the crash but managed to pass the losses onto the rest of us. As such, surely these voters are as vital to understand and reach as those identified as "left behind"?

I'm not taking issue with the interpretations of the motivations of poorer, working class people, just the way in which these interpretations have come to dominate what is a much bigger, more complex picture.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:14 pm

gilsey wrote:Here's another 'it's all the left's fault'.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11 ... r-the-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That this has all happened says less about the bigotry, or even idiocy, of the UK and US electorates, than it does about the utter inadequacy of the left.
I don't agree that the rise of the right is a product of infighting on the left. It's a product of capitalism, which has been able to capture most of the media and thereby perpetuate and enlarge itself to a point beyond rationality in the US and the UK. It can only collapse under it's own weight, not through political opposition. IMO.

'point beyond rationality'
Good phrase describing a poisonous phenomenon
A story created elsewhere foisted upon the population, people come to believe in that story, think it's their own
Think of how we live in urban and suburban areas
Disconnected from day and night, we don't grow our own food, our water, heating, communication systems complex, manufactured externally, piped into our dwellings
It's easier to control people this way
I'm not suggesting we abandon our urban homes, I'm just explaining how people can become susceptible to stories others create

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:16 pm

gilsey wrote:Here's another 'it's all the left's fault'. Bollocks.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11 ... r-the-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That this has all happened says less about the bigotry, or even idiocy, of the UK and US electorates, than it does about the utter inadequacy of the left.
I don't agree that the rise of the right is a product of infighting on the left. It's a product of capitalism, which has been able to capture most of the media and thereby perpetuate and enlarge itself to a point beyond rationality in the US and the UK. It can only collapse under its own weight, not through political opposition. IMO.

Well said. Completely agree.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:17 pm

How're you doing now JA ?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:20 pm

yahyah wrote:How're you doing now JA ?

I'm glad you're here. Without community it's too lonely. I understand it's a community of words. It's friendship I value. I need to hike in Wales, soon, I think.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:27 pm

Thank you. I value you too JA and your acceptance of others and their views.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:43 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Post deleted by PaulfromYorkshire

Was that post really necessary?

Still, it got the approval elsewhere so all good eh?

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:46 pm

Elsewhere?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:49 pm

So anyway the world's ####ed.

(pollyanna emoticon)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:50 pm

And the Noilly Pratt beckons.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:51 pm

("show me the way to go home" emoticon)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 6:59 pm

Goldman Sachs considers Frankfurt move over Brexit - sources

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1 ... frankfurt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:00 pm

Hmm I see California legalised weed, that's one way of getting through the next four years.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:01 pm

Or, for the more upmarket:
("indicate the route to my abode")

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:03 pm

Total dead from the Croydon tram accident now gone up to 7. Thinking of relatives & friends who have lost loved ones.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:07 pm

Completely off topic, but someone's dog keeps shitting on my front garden, any suggestions? I've just found 3 new ones since yesterday!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:13 pm

Womble44 wrote:Completely off topic, but someone's dog keeps shitting on my front garden, any suggestions? I've just found 3 new ones since yesterday!

Camera ? Or DNA test...lol

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:15 pm

It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:15 pm

Womble44 wrote:Completely off topic, but someone's dog keeps shitting on my front garden, any suggestions? I've just found 3 new ones since yesterday!

We experience the joy of people pissing in our doorway. So thoughtful.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:16 pm

Womble44 wrote:It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?

You can deploy my non-patented vs emoticon if you like.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:18 pm

I already have

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:20 pm

Womble44 wrote:I read what you said, but Trump's campaign itself was nasty and divisive, Corbyn's wasn't. I don't see why Corbyn couldn't observe that about Trump with a straight face. i just thought it was a false equivalence.

It is a false equivalence. Corbyn is no more responsible for what some of his supporters say than Trump is his. Corbyn and Trump can only ever be responsible for what they each say and what they deliberately provoke others to say. And to compare the two in that regard is not just absurd but deeply offensive.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:20 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Completely off topic, but someone's dog keeps shitting on my front garden, any suggestions? I've just found 3 new ones since yesterday!
We experience the joy of people pissing in our doorway. So thoughtful.

If there are particular nights when it happens, and you have a porch/awning, put a sheet of cling film over the entrance

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:22 pm

Womble44 wrote:It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?

I don't think they work very well, but worth trying
http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/plant-p ... ellent.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and
http://www.pestcontrolproductsonline.co ... t_control/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:22 pm

cunning

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:25 pm

I recommend a cat hiding behind its cat flap. One whack to the snout as the dog pokes it through and it'll never darken your patch again.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:26 pm

Womble44 wrote:It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?

If it's wondering around off the lead you could also ring the dog warden (sounds horrid, I know) but you have to pay a fee to get the dog back if the warden collects it, which might work as a deterrent ? Or do you know them well enough to just ask them to stop it? (re last bit - just read your "local politics" bit sorry)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:26 pm

We had the dog problem once. We grabbed it and attached a note to its owners to its collar

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:26 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:I recommend a cat hiding behind its cat flap. One whack to the snout as the dog pokes it through and it'll never darken your patch again.

My last dog (who died this year) would have read that as a challenge

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:29 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Womble44 wrote:It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?
If it's wondering around off the lead you could also ring the dog warden (sounds horrid, I know) but you have to pay a fee to get the dog back if the warden collects it, which might work as a deterrent ? Or do you know them well enough to just ask them to stop it?

When we were viewing the house, we actually got the fog picked up because we thought it was stray. The owner's response is 'you shouldn't live in the country if you don't like animals '

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:29 pm

Alternatively, you could go and drop your trousers in their garden and see if they take the hint.
(Diplomacy, you may gather, is not always one of my stronger points).

My mother's technique would be to grab them by the scruff of the neck and rub their noses in it. The animal that is, not the owner. Though...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 7:32 pm

Womble44 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Womble44 wrote:It's a small village and despite not being in the wrong, I think the local politics mean I can't directly confront them (almost certain I know whose dog it is). I'd rather some sort of deterrent. Do the sprays work?
If it's wondering around off the lead you could also ring the dog warden (sounds horrid, I know) but you have to pay a fee to get the dog back if the warden collects it, which might work as a deterrent ? Or do you know them well enough to just ask them to stop it?
When we were viewing the house, we actually got the fog picked up because we thought it was stray. The owner's response is 'you shouldn't live in the country if you don't like animals '

I hope you responded, "you shouldn't have animals if you let them shit on other people's property"
(I refer back to my prior point)