Friday 14th to Monday 17th April 2017

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 4:47 am

: labour policies.png (177.22 KiB) Viewed 6900 times

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 8:18 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... poor-areas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Revealed: how free schools boom helps England’s richest regions

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:00 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
labour policies.png

The lesson of the last election is that while individual policies may be popular, voters don't tend to vote on them but on whether the candidate is who they want as PM.

I suspect it is the vision thing, or a hierachy of needs (keep me safe, keep me fed, help me if I am sick),

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:01 am

Context (in the week of)

Purposeful targeted cuts to the bereaved with children.
Purposeful targeted cuts to the sick/disabled.

"I think of those who go out of their way to visit the sick or bereaved"

(May Easter message)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:05 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
labour policies.png
The lesson of the last election is that while individual policies may be popular, voters don't tend to vote on them but on whether the candidate is who they want as PM.

I suspect it is the vision thing, or a hierachy of needs (keep me safe, keep me fed, help me if I am sick),

I'm sure you are correct TE

But while we wait for the right leader to emerge, because we mustn't forget no plausible alternative has yet presented themselves, at least we can be confident of our policies and unite behind them.

That could create the conditions for alternative leadership.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:06 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
labour policies.png
The lesson of the last election is that while individual policies may be popular, voters don't tend to vote on them but on whether the candidate is who they want as PM.

I suspect it is the vision thing, or a hierachy of needs (keep me safe, keep me fed, help me if I am sick),

One T Blair was good on this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-miliband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not that it matters now, as that path is closed off for good.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:08 am

Meanwhile Happy Easter everyone.

I'm sure our cockles have been warmed by our glorious leader

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85486.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:10 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
labour policies.png
The lesson of the last election is that while individual policies may be popular, voters don't tend to vote on them but on whether the candidate is who they want as PM.

I suspect it is the vision thing, or a hierachy of needs (keep me safe, keep me fed, help me if I am sick),
I'm sure you are correct TE

But while we wait for the right leader to emerge, because we mustn't forget no plausible alternative has yet presented themselves, at least we can be confident of our policies and unite behind them.

That could create the conditions for alternative leadership.

There are many better candidates out there. Lisa Nandy and Yvette Cooper being the most obvious.

The current policies are really just MIlibandism (save for the silly, arbitrary £500bn pledge, why not £2tn?). They are nothing really to do with Corbyn/Milne/McDonnell/Lansmann's agenda, for which the current policies are irrelevant, save that they have to try to keep Jeremy in post.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:30 am

i'm ok with these policies and don't see the relevance of whether a) or b) came up with them.
what's missing (for me) is PR, holding the press accountable, and employment polarisation (ie: return to serfdom, not that we ever got terribly far from it)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:31 am

though of course I realise this is a poll and not a manifesto (before anyone informs me forcefully of this fact)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:32 am

And although 10 years old I believe this is somehow timely:

https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:36 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Meanwhile Happy Easter everyone.

I'm sure our cockles have been warmed by our glorious leader

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85486.html

Yeah - only one problem with this. I fear I have more or less no shared values with anyone wanting to take us out of Europe/bring back death penalty/shout at Brummies etc

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 56791.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... goes-viral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:41 am

She added: "For at heart, this country is one great union of people and nations with a proud history and a bright future.”

The subtext being: this country is one rapidly disintegrating union currently dominated by hatred and small-mindedness stirred up by UKIP and the Tories (and Gisela Stuart)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:42 am

Oh yeah - and not forgetting that the plan is that many of those "people" we're going to send back to their "nations"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:43 am

Not sure if the sick/disabled chaining themselves to railings with support from sympathetic Lordships and others to stop the misanthropy of the benefit disintegration project(granted a continuation)would view Blair as in any way compassionate.And no one with knowledge and/or experience Cooper in that area-and it has nothing to do with what wing or grouping but far more to do with basic decency and refusals to accept responsibility and air of arrogance would think she is in any way suitable as leader.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:44 am

I certainly would not see Cooper as a candidate I would fall over myself to vote for

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 9:49 am

She has strengths of course,I personally couldn't vote her for leader.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 10:47 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 84771.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Government 'preparing to scrap EU’s green energy targets after Brexit’
Target requires EU to fulfil at least 20 per cent of total energy needs with renewables by end of decade through attainment of individual national targets

Former Environment Secretary and Tory MP Owen Paterson told The Daily Telegraph he would be “very happy” to see the back of the green energy directive.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 10:48 am

Perhaps Brummie shouting could become the new apple howling

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:02 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But one EU source told the newspaper that initial sympathy with Britain’s decision to leave the bloc had eroded due to the UK Government’s aggressive approach to talks – including the threat of leaving the negotiations without a deal and becoming a low-tax haven.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:02 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
labour policies.png
The lesson of the last election is that while individual policies may be popular, voters don't tend to vote on them but on whether the candidate is who they want as PM.

I suspect it is the vision thing, or a hierachy of needs (keep me safe, keep me fed, help me if I am sick),
I'm sure you are correct TE

But while we wait for the right leader to emerge, because we mustn't forget no plausible alternative has yet presented themselves, at least we can be confident of our policies and unite behind them.

That could create the conditions for alternative leadership.

I doubt anyone will present themselves as challenger to Corbyn. Until he stands down, I suspect the situation will carry on as at present despite what that does to the party & it's future.

For a man supposedly without ego, he is remarkably stubborn in the face of seat & Councillor losses as well as the truly appalling polling we have been seeing for months.

The MCR Gorton by-election has the potential to highlight how dreadful Labour will perform in the GE. A resurgent LD vote combined with the execrable Galloway eating into 'our' vote does not bode well. I expect Labour to retain the seat but with a much reduced majority. If it's worse than that, surely even the most devoted Corbyn supporter would have to admit it is time for him to stand down.

Morning all & Happy Easter

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:09 am

I voted for Cooper first time, despite her distinctly average campaign.

It's partly her fault we are where we are IMHO. Why couldn't she have been more inspiring and given us a future vision?

I'd consider her again if she stood.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:11 am

pk1 wrote:I doubt anyone will present themselves as challenger to Corbyn. Until he stands down, I suspect the situation will carry on as at present despite what that does to the party & it's future.

For a man supposedly without ego, he is remarkably stubborn in the face of seat & Councillor losses as well as the truly appalling polling we have been seeing for months.

The MCR Gorton by-election has the potential to highlight how dreadful Labour will perform in the GE. A resurgent LD vote combined with the execrable Galloway eating into 'our' vote does not bode well. I expect Labour to retain the seat but with a much reduced majority. If it's worse than that, surely even the most devoted Corbyn supporter would have to admit it is time for him to stand down.

Morning all & Happy Easter

Happy Easter too!

In reply to your comments, you know I'm not a Corbyn fan, but until we ALL bury our differences rather than blaming one wing or other of the party, Labour will fail.

I don't expect you to agree though pk1

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:17 am

I used to be quite a Nandy fan, but she has proved a bit too fond of unreconstructed "Blue Labour" thinking recently for my liking.

(BL originally had some decent insights alongside the "flag, faith, family" fluff, but now seems to do little else but endlessly bang on about immigration)

I have always found Cooper an uninspiring machine politician, and the 2015 leadership campaign pretty much set that in stone. Being able to ask a good question on occasion in the HoC is not the be all and end all (whatever most lobby journalists seem to think) and she has banged on and on about immigration since the referendum as well

We all know SH's high opinion of Starmer, but IMO he is a realistic possiblity. Maybe with Rayner as his deputy to help keep the left on side?

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:36 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
pk1 wrote:I doubt anyone will present themselves as challenger to Corbyn. Until he stands down, I suspect the situation will carry on as at present despite what that does to the party & it's future.

For a man supposedly without ego, he is remarkably stubborn in the face of seat & Councillor losses as well as the truly appalling polling we have been seeing for months.

The MCR Gorton by-election has the potential to highlight how dreadful Labour will perform in the GE. A resurgent LD vote combined with the execrable Galloway eating into 'our' vote does not bode well. I expect Labour to retain the seat but with a much reduced majority. If it's worse than that, surely even the most devoted Corbyn supporter would have to admit it is time for him to stand down.

Morning all & Happy Easter
Happy Easter too!

In reply to your comments, you know I'm not a Corbyn fan, but until we ALL bury our differences rather than blaming one wing or other of the party, Labour will fail.

I don't expect you to agree though pk1

I didn't blame any 'side' but yeah, I don't think Corbyn is a credible leader & nor do I think Labour would win a GE with him as its leader.

I learnt a bloody hard lesson when the electorate rejected Ed Miliband in 2015. For all the warmth I felt towards him (and still do) it was made perfectly clear that the electorate will not overlook a leaders personality & oddities, despite claiming to like party policies.

Polling has pointed us toward the reason for Labour disastrous numbers & it's not the party policies at fault.

I don't blame Labour MPs for not putting up another challenger. The treatment Owen Smith got is enough to deter any further challenger.

The most vulnerable & the people Labour supposedly stand for are the ones that will feel the worst effects of another 5 year Tory reign. They deserve better.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:40 am

Has anyone seen yahyah anywhere recently ? It's a worry that both she & her husband were suffering ill health at the same time & she hasn't posted since then.

Yahyah, if you're looking in....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:42 am

As for Gorton, some LibDem revival from their (totally ahistorical) 4% at the last GE is inevitable.

The glorified canvass returns quoted (totally uncritically, of course) in the weekend papers should be treated with scepticism though

The vibes from certain Labour people I trust (who also said early on that we were in trouble in Copeland) seem to suggest they will be fine. Also that Galloway isn't going down very well, and the support he is actually getting are often the types that might vote LibDem otherwise.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:43 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-nation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reacting to the message, Alastair Campbell, who famously said when working for Tony Blair that “we don’t do God”, suggested May should tread carefully when linking her faith to the political challenges facing the country. “I think even vicars’ daughters should be a little wary of allying their politics to their faith,” he said. “She does not exactly say if God had a vote he would have voted Leave, but she gets closer to it than she should. If she really thinks she is leading a united country full of hope ... I suggest she gets out more.”

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:45 am

pk1 wrote:Has anyone seen yahyah anywhere recently ? It's a worry that both she & her husband were suffering ill health at the same time & she hasn't posted since then.

Yahyah, if you're looking in....

Yeah, it would be nice if she just let us know how she is.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:46 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-39590851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bandages which can detect how a wound is healing and send messages back to doctors could be trialled within the next 12 months, scientists have said.

This is a fantastic initiative & could save infection developing when bandages are changed purely to check on a wound.

The bandages would use real-time 5G technology to monitor what treatment is needed and also keep track of a patient's activity levels.

I do NOT like the sound of this however !

It's bad enough that our personal data is being used without permission by the DoH but reporting on our very movements must surely be a step too far (pun not intended)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:51 am

pk1 wrote:Has anyone seen yahyah anywhere recently ? It's a worry that both she & her husband were suffering ill health at the same time & she hasn't posted since then.

Yahyah, if you're looking in....

Yes - I've asked after her, here, several times but no-one seems to have had contact with her.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:52 am

Good morfternoon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 12:56 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I used to be quite a Nandy fan, but she has proved a bit too fond of unreconstructed "Blue Labour" thinking recently for my liking.

(BL originally had some decent insights alongside the "flag, faith, family" fluff, but now seems to do little else but endlessly bang on about immigration)

I have always found Cooper an uninspiring machine politician, and the 2015 leadership campaign pretty much set that in stone. Being able to ask a good question on occasion in the HoC is not the be all and end all (whatever most lobby journalists seem to think) and she has banged on and on about immigration since the referendum as well

We all know SH's high opinion of Starmer, but IMO he is a realistic possiblity. Maybe with Rayner as his deputy to help keep the left on side?

Oh no, anyone but Starmer. At least Cooper believes in something.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 12:56 pm

Alleluia.

He is risen.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 1:07 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I used to be quite a Nandy fan, but she has proved a bit too fond of unreconstructed "Blue Labour" thinking recently for my liking.

(BL originally had some decent insights alongside the "flag, faith, family" fluff, but now seems to do little else but endlessly bang on about immigration)

I have always found Cooper an uninspiring machine politician, and the 2015 leadership campaign pretty much set that in stone. Being able to ask a good question on occasion in the HoC is not the be all and end all (whatever most lobby journalists seem to think) and she has banged on and on about immigration since the referendum as well

We all know SH's high opinion of Starmer, but IMO he is a realistic possiblity. Maybe with Rayner as his deputy to help keep the left on side?
Oh no, anyone but Starmer. At least Cooper believes in something.

Does she?

Keeping it well hidden then, IMO.

I would say the "at least they believe in something" line is more applicable to the likes of Liz K.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 1:52 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 73031.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
British voters discriminate against candidates with foreign-sounding or ethnic minority names, study finds
An estimated 200 council seats a year could change hands due to discrimination, which declined until 2001 only to increase sharply from then on, study says

And yet "Farage". Being British has suddenly become an embarrassment, or perhaps I'm just a late developer.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 1:53 pm

North Korea launches missile but test ends in failure (Guardian)

I almost feel sorry for the people who oversaw this failure (always assuming that a success was ever seriously advertised as being on the cards).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... im-jong-un

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 3:08 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:quote="SpinningHugo"]
1. One thing I feel quite strongly about is that those in the medical profession are exactly the wrong people to be listening to. They are trained in medical care. not the economic modelling of delivering services. The people to listen to on the delivery of heathcare are (micro-)economists.

2. The NHS does have strengths, but there are also good reasons why the UK is the only country that adopts this model.

3. The NHS is cheap, but illiberal. It is cheap because it is illiberal. Because it is illib

Can I just challenge the idea that the UK is the only country that has adopted the NHS model. .

[/quote]

Which other systems, specifically, are you thinking of?[/quote]

Government run health systems in mainly Commonwealth countries, that treat the majority of people for free, bar prescription charges, that run free hospitals, public health programmes such as contraception, vaccination, disease control, etc., including vital stuff like TB, Malaria, Dengue, other tropical and infectious vectors, with a recognition that health and the interests of a nation are utterly intertwined and not separable, and who educate young medical staff within a very similar model to ours. Similar because such systems were in fact based upon ours, nothing more efficient has been found, and even those who do go into private practice still also work within the national framework, just like many of ours. Sadly, though there were many more who used to follow such a system in more recent times, i.e. since the 80s, many such nations have been restructured economically, and part of the deal has been to undermine, on the grounds of fiscal incompetence, the notion of universal health care, paid for through taxation. This coincided with the insertion of privatised concerns that leach off government revenues, i.e. making huge profits from the (often very poor) provision of public services.

Why specifically do you want to know? Because you are interested, or because you have an agenda you wish to push? Or because you consider your view of the world more valid than that of others?

I can give concrete examples of the latter if you so wish. I am not interested in rhetoric or influencing others, just trying to see the world as it actually is.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 3:25 pm

Willow904 wrote:Perhaps it's time for the left to talk about reform of the NHS if the alternative is to allow the Tories to slowly disintegrate it into a two tier system as has already happened in optometry and dentistry.

Take the initiative and start exploring possible changes based on models that work elsewhere that are more closely aligned to our own system. And they do exist. This idea the UK is the only country that publicly funds its healthcare system, that insurance based systems are the only viable option for our future, is rubbish. What about Canada? And we're not the only country with government administered healthcare, either. What about Scandinavia? It's this misleading idea that we're somehow out on a limb doing something completely different to everyone else, who all have an identical and better system, that reveals the ulterior motives of such discourse. No two universal healthcare systems are the same and no system is perfect. I think the real downfall of the NHS is not that it is imperfect, all systems are imperfect, but that we have stopped trying to make it the best it can be, while other countries haven't.

Willow, you are of course right (mostly) about Canada and Scandinavia. Till recently you could also have included Holland. This does not mean that their systems have not come under sustained attack though. Holland is in the middle of an almost invisible change, a bit like ours. Though their system had differences to ours. All these nations differ from ours though. They have resisted driving down wages to rock bottom, and they encourage their populations to pay more tax in the interests of having a better society. And housing which is such a fraught issue here and keeps peoples available income so low is not the same kind of issue. Part of looking at why things are dyfunctional is taking into account how what is staring most people in the face remains peculiarly invisible. How we have no coherent national discussion on such a lot, for instance, but get subjected to a huge volume of largely irrelevent political commentary and distraction? This does seem to be a very anglophile issue, tbh, though not exclusively so.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 3:29 pm

Turkey referendum: country votes on Erdoğan's proposed new powers – live

Turks decide whether to back president’s plan for constitutional changes that are arguably the republic’s biggest since 1923

The polls have now closed in Turkey, although those who have been queuing to vote will be allowed to cast their ballot.

Turkey has no official exit polls and media are barred from publishing or broadcasting election results until the High Election Board lifts the ban at 1800 GMT or earlier. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ial-powers

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 3:31 pm

I now always think of SpinningHugo when I do that (above).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 4:20 pm

A rally supporting Melenchon today in Toulouse has attracted some 70k people. Eat your heart out, Jez

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 4:31 pm

Yes. Makes a Jeremy Corbyn rally look like very small pommes de terre.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 5:09 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... pils-exams" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sats boycott moves closer after NUT motion calls for ballots

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 5:43 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... l-strategy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Britain can build a successful, lasting industrial strategy
Larry Elliott

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 6:01 pm

Well, that was unexpected - but no less pleasurable all the same

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 6:21 pm

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1596438 ... -less-than" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Labour Press
Employees in small businesses earned less than previously thought between 2010 and 2015

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 6:26 pm

G4S boss takes home 75% rise after scandal-hit year

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g4s- ... 0ac2bbf7f3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 7:06 pm

http://principia-scientific.org/british ... subsidies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

British Solar Energy In ‘Total Collapse’ As Government Cuts Subsidies

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Apr, 2017 7:23 pm

19:04
Turkey's main opposition to challenge referendum result

AFP news agency (@AFP)

#BREAKING Turkey's two main opposition parties say to challenge referendum result
April 16, 2017 (Guardian Live)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ial-powers