FlyTheNest

OK - I'll try to post on the science - since this is where I am most naturally drawn. That is not to say I won't also post on the Pet Shop Boys and other nonsense.

Starter for 10:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/these- ... 2020-03-06" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; These 21 companies are working on coronavirus treatments or vaccines — here’s where things stand

Have forgotten how to edit urls within quotes so that you can click'em

Am sure some technical wizard will remind me (am thinking a 'P' and an 'F')

AnatolyKasparov wrote:

Willow904 wrote:I wish I could forget.

It looks like it's going to be another day of wall to wall "resurrection" and it's getting very frustrating as I really want to know what's happening, where the outbreak is worse, how it's affecting people, how many people have been laid off or are on furlough, whether the financial packages announced by the government are working for people and so on.

I want some news, basically. Some new news, not raking over the disaster Labour's been for the last 5 years. We all know Ed's attempts to keep everything together failed. What now needs to be accepted is that all out war doesn't work either. Anyone who thinks that Labour will be saved if we just purge this group of people or that group of people don't understand how first past the post works and they have to get over it, and that includes the Blair worshippers who have to accept that when Blair won a landslide in 1997 he did so with a broad coalition of shadow ministers from across the board, not narrow minded purists all singing from the exact same song sheet. How Starmer reacts will be informative, I guess, but I can predict no one will be happy. We've got some characters on the right of the party who have behaved completely inappropriately and said some appalling things on the one hand but on the other hand we have the people who have leaked this potentially breaking privacy laws in doing so and thus dumping Labour in a whole lot of other trouble too.

And, boy, did it get chilly again or what? 8°C here, after 24°C yesterday.

This stuff needed to be leaked, quite frankly.

I've been involved in left wing politics for nigh on 40 years now, and have seen a fair amount of things with my own eyes that were not for the squeamish. I have no illusions that factionalism will always exist, or that things will sometimes get nasty and people may even say things they don't really mean.

But certain stuff in these files is just - in the most elemental sense of that word - inhuman. Pure sociopathy. People who have forgotten why they got involved in the Labour party in the first place - save for certain individuals (and alas I have no doubt that this is true) who did so for totally amoral self-interested careerist reasons.

(but again, why were those types ever allowed to reach such prominent positions in the party hierarchy in the first place?)

Starmer needs to respond in some way - much of his support was motivated by a desire to put this kind of unpleasantness behind us.

Hi everyone, hope all well

I am bit surprised by the dismissal of this report Willow as it goes to the heart of some quite important things we have seen over the last few years. I base this is the report has evidence to back up the quoted data, obviously conclusions are there to be challenged but this was suggested for sending to EHRC so I imagine the base data is available

The report suggests no institutional anti-semitism in Labour because the investigation of all racism and abuse was as bad as each other and that the focus of the staff concerned was not on these more serious abuses but making sure potential Corbyn supporters could not vote in leadership election.

Senior members of Labour HQ actively desiring defeat in 2017 election - this may only be the tip of the iceberg as who knows what went on outside these visible conversations to ensure that we were defeated which the consequences of Brexit and years of more Tory Government

The language use by these senior members of HQ, including someone suggested to be the next Labour GS, were examples of some of the most disgusting racist, sexist and violent abuse that we have seen. All at this time we have seen nothing but criticism of the left for 'abuse' when it appears the worst was coming from within the party. It also highlights inconsistencies where abusive comments by allies of these people were brushed under the carpet (McTernan for example) but less serious ones by those perceived to be on the 'left' were punished

There is a clear suggestion that anti-Semitism investigations were handled so badly by the HQ disciplinary staff that it led to massive backlogs and delays - the indication is as well that the leadership were pushing for quicker resolution but HQ was where the dell was - one of those most heavily responsible then turned up on Panorama as a 'whistleblower'

If these allegations are true, and they are more substantive than a lot of allegations made against Corbyn and his close advisors then we have a situation where most of what we have been told over the last few years from members of the PLP and the media was, to put it bluntly, based on lies.

The report does not deny Labour has had an issue with anti-Semites (although the numbers of actual people involved in percentage terms of members is extremely low) but the investigation process up to the arrival of Formby was shambolic and in the hands of dedicated opponents of the leadership.

I again emphasise that the assumption I am making is that the base data is correct but to try and suggest we 'move on' after the last few years of allegations emanating from with the Party that contributed to Tory victories and Brexit are, to say the least, disingenuous and pretty offensive for those of us who have been on the receiving ends of accusations of racism because we dared to challenge the narrative. Remember though we have been told to accept accusations and interpretations of comments continuously over recent years so we should apply the same rules here

I have no personal problem with Starmer and was not opposed to him being leader but he has to act strongly against these people.

If I was just to highlight one part I found the most despicable it was the laughter at Diane Abbot crying in a toilet which is around the same time she had been receiving particularly offensive and abusive messages including death and rape threats - anyone who says that this is not despicable and we should just 'move on' needs to take a good look at themselves.

One thing several weeks ago now DID worry me very much about Starmer . He was asked if, some years from now he'd be looking for re-admission to the EU, and answered er something forgettable .

The correct answer should surely have been --

" You tell me exactly how the world is going to be in five years, then I'll answer your question."

Collapse of journalist ?

that's the one

tinyclanger2 wrote:Am sure some technical wizard will remind me (am thinking a 'P' and an 'F')

More an 'R' and an 'M'

(Put a space between the quote tag and the url)

@howsillyofme1

I have neither dismissed the report or suggested we "move on", I haven't actually read it for the simple reason that I allude to above which is that it doesn't appear to comply with data privacy laws and so sharing it and discussing it openly on social media could seriously infringe the confidentiality of those who complained about racism in the first place. I think you're misinterpreting my prioritising and being more interested in what's happening right now and the government's response to it as somehow saying what has been happening within Labour is somehow ok. It isn't, but it isn't new. So although I'm interested in new developments, eg how Starmer responds, I'm less interested in the Labour civil war breaking out on social media at the moment as I have no way of independently verifying what's true and what's not. And I stand by what I said - no party hoping to win a first past the post election can afford to confine itself to a narrow ideological viewpoint of any hue. When Corbyn became leader he said "we've got our party back" setting the scene for this civil war that most everyone said Labour needed but I felt frustration with as for me "old Labour" trying to do to "new Labour" what they felt Blair did to them so many years ago never felt to me like a way forward but a way to guarantee we get stuck in the battles of the past. Which is not to say I side with or condone those who worked against Corbyn, some of them worked against Ed as well, what I'm saying is open civil war hasn't exactly worked any better than Ed's more conciliatory approach, has it.

@willow

Okay I accept that viewpoint but we have here a report that suggests Labour are institutionally racist - not just anti-Semitic but seemed completely unable to deal with any type of -ism at all until fairly recently. There is evidence of extremely violent, racist and sexist behaviour by senior members of the party HQ not to mention incompetence. Surely worth pointing out now that it is available. We would have been discussing it if there had been violently anti-Semitic quotes directly attributable to Corbyn or his colleagues I am sure - not to mention all over the front pages.

In terms of the current crisis - not much evidence of the Starmer led party being particularly effective so far and so not really sure how much difference more internecine fighting will make. Rachel Reeves showed again her inability to criticise anything that the Tories do - what a weak choice she was!

Labour really is a broken party but possibly we have been looking at the wrong people to hold to account

Shame though, as this crisis shows, that Corbyn was more right than wrong!


EDIT: Yes, it is unfortunate the way this report was leaked and it would have been much better if it had been released officially with specific parts taken out. I don't know who leaked it but possibly there was a fear it was going to be hidden away a bit like the Russia Report and all the others we know are out there. I would guess there is a lack of trust in the top echelons in the party at the moment

refitman wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:Am sure some technical wizard will remind me (am thinking a 'P' and an 'F')

More an 'R' and an 'M'

(Put a space between the quote tag and the url)

Aha - excellent - thanks!

Abi Wilks falling into the trap here.

Abi Wilkinson
@AbiWilks
If Labour had won 2017 we would have a well funded NHS with sufficient ventilators and PPE, and based on Corbyn’s interventions probably less disastrous policy in the early weeks, so it does quite matter that Labour staff were working against that

If Labour hadn't been in apparent disarray, not least because staff were working against it, there wouldn't have been a 2017 GE.


The first part is true, of course.

Willow904 wrote: I'm interested in new developments, eg how Starmer responds

I'm very interested.

Don't mind if he takes his time, within reason.

gilsey wrote:Abi Wilks falling into the trap here.

Abi Wilkinson
@AbiWilks
If Labour had won 2017 we would have a well funded NHS with sufficient ventilators and PPE, and based on Corbyn’s interventions probably less disastrous policy in the early weeks, so it does quite matter that Labour staff were working against that

If Labour hadn't been in apparent disarray, not least because staff were working against it, there wouldn't have been a 2017 GE.


The first part is true, of course.

That could be an argument but once the election was called there are more and more indications of some shenanigans with the spending on specific seats.

If it was found that once the election was called that there was continued attempts to ensure Labour did badly then that is surely worthy of investigation?

It seems though investigations are no longer in vogue....just 'put the past behind us'...

howsillyofme1 wrote:
If it was found that once the election was called that there was continued attempts to ensure Labour did badly then that is surely worthy of investigation?

Racism, sexism, bullying and mismanagement were happening before and after, what these people did in 2017 is just one element of the evidence against them.

Pursuing 'did they lose GE2017 for Labour' specifically is being sidetracked. IMO.

As I said yesterday I think Starmer will have to sack Ashworth. Which will be tough I know.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I said yesterday I think Starmer will have to sack Ashworth. Which will be tough I know.

Did he actually know about what his partner was doing, at least in more than the most vaguely general terms?

I know the assumption is that "of course he must have done", but people might be surprised.

(some might recall the furore about Tessa Jowell and her "dodgy" husband)

People are pointing out that Ashworth lambasted Dawn Butler for saying that Corbyn was trying his best and being frustrated by McNicol.

It’s hard to believe this was anything but a lie.

On that subject...

Sienna Rodgers
‏

@siennamarla
Follow Follow @siennamarla
More
NEW: Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are commissioning an urgent investigation into the internal report.

4:34 PM - 13 Apr 2020

Afternoon all - reasonably long walk at a fairly brisk pace this afternoon. On my own as 'er indoors is confined to barracks,...

Good to see the joint statement from Starmer and Rayner.

My instincts are that while they must have known things like this were going on they will nevertheless have been shocked by the detail here.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Good to see the joint statement from Starmer and Rayner.

My instincts are that while they must have known things like this were going on they will nevertheless have been shocked by the detail here.

I'd have more confidence if 2 of the 3 things they are investigating are 'why this report was commissioned' and 'how it became public'.

refitman wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Good to see the joint statement from Starmer and Rayner.
My instincts are that while they must have known things like this were going on they will nevertheless have been shocked by the detail here.

I'd have more confidence if 2 of the 3 things they are investigating are 'why this report was commissioned' and 'how it became public'.

I'd have more confidence if 2 of the 3 things they are investigating were not 'why this report was commissioned' and 'how it became public'. ??

( or am I being thick ? )

frog222 wrote:

refitman wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Good to see the joint statement from Starmer and Rayner.
My instincts are that while they must have known things like this were going on they will nevertheless have been shocked by the detail here.

I'd have more confidence if 2 of the 3 things they are investigating are 'why this report was commissioned' and 'how it became public'.

I'd have more confidence if 2 of the 3 things they are investigating were not 'why this report was commissioned' and 'how it became public'. ??

( or am I being thick ? )

It makes it sound like they are going to attack the people that produced the report, rather than the people featured in it, that seem to have brought the party into disrepute (at the very least).

Speaking of attack, have just watched Once Upon a time in Hollywood.

After a r-e-a-l-l-y-s-l-o-w-a-n-d-s-e-l-f-i-n-d-u-l-g-e-n-t- start it got quite good.
On a scale of 1-10 I was Quite Pleased.

No citizenJA again today.

That’s unusual - can anyone contact her directly?

For Sky and PF, thanks for the tunes the other night. Here's one you might like:

[youtube]__QqQq9XBsQ[/youtube]

I can email J.A. on the email she used to sign up here if folk are concerned?

May not be her email now though.

I've just sent a message to her. I'll let you know .

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This is quite remarkable
https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its- ... d-to-lose/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've just got round to reading this.
Sickening.

Sickened is exactly how I felt.

What kind of person would pay money to read this?

The UK will lead the global coronavirus response to end this pandemic sooner
By stopping a pandemic from turning into a long-term humanitarian disaster it will not just save lives but will help end the global spread of this disease sooner, writes Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Not sure why I bothered with a link, quite sure no-one here wants to.

It's nice(!) to see the Guardian continuing to attack Corbyn over anti-Semitism, in their article on the report, despite it saying that things were much worse before him and Jenny Formby.

gilsey wrote:What kind of person would pay money to read this?

The UK will lead the global coronavirus response to end this pandemic sooner
By stopping a pandemic from turning into a long-term humanitarian disaster it will not just save lives but will help end the global spread of this disease sooner, writes Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Not sure why I bothered with a link, quite sure no-one here wants to.

Delusional.

refitman wrote:It's nice(!) to see the Guardian continuing to attack Corbyn over anti-Semitism, in their article on the report, despite it saying that things were much worse before him and Jenny Formby.

Yes. The idea that Corbyn is himself antisemitic looks ever more ludicrous. It seems his main failing was not realising that a rapid expansion of membership was bound to bring some unwholesome characters into the party. And there were inadequate safeguards.

Guardian-Brown
That’s all I’m saying

[youtube]E27_J-r4YWE[/youtube]

GetYou wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This is quite remarkable
https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its- ... d-to-lose/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've just got round to reading this. Sickening.

I saw that ages ago ! I was going to aplogise for not posting it here...
then realised it was only yesterday

Things are moving faster and faster, is Starmer's 'investigation' due to report this year ?