Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd November 2015

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:38 pm

Yep, there is nothing stopping the MSM holding the government to account *as well as* reporting Labour's failings (percieved or otherwise)

The suspicion is that they don't do the former because they don't really want to.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:38 pm

I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:41 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.

Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:49 pm

At work at a RNIB College,teaching life skills,it came on the radio,I excused myself and started jumping up and down,some of the students joined me thinking it was part of the task.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.
Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.

Yes - but Margaret Thatcher and her doings were somehow more "tangible". This lot are an enveloping noxious and mind-altering miasma with which the country seems ill-equipped to grapple. It's almost as though they must be exorcised, rather than expelled by political means.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.
Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.

Suppose so, I was lucky enough (if that is the right term) to be in a relatively safe full time job with plenty of overtime if needed and a good union. It didn't really affect me as much as some. I obviously saw what happened all around though, a lot of male friends and family were miners, there a whole communities which have never recovered.

In July 1982 a group of four of us lads were very nearly assaulted by another larger group of very irate Argentinians who were resident in the same bar as us whilst on holiday in Amsterdam, simply because the recognised us as being British, despite us protesting that we hated the bitch as much as they did. I was very lucky not to have ended up face down in a canal.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:52 pm

gilsey wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Will Hutton ;

The leadership of the Labour party offers no substantive intellectual or political opposition, nor represents a potential governing coalition, nor, wedded to a bankrupt simplistic top-down statism, understands the complexities of these new times. Rarely has the principal opposition party been so irrelevant at a time of national need.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ge-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot01077.jpg
He writes about Osborne's mendacity and incompetence and then blames Labour?
Why include the last paragraph at all, or the subtitle.

Suppose Labour were the best opposition they could possibly be, what practical difference could it make? The election is 5 years away.

Suppose the media started talking truth about the government, now that could make a difference.

Exactly, my friend, this more than anything burns me too. Labour party supporters, members throwing a tantrum like frustrated children. It's probably a defense mechansim on his part, I'm guessing, I can't know for sure. Whatever it is, it's wrong. We will get absolutely nowhere if we don't stay together and rid the country of Tory government. Shaking a fist at the Labour party for Tory government incompetence is insane.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Will Hutton ;

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ge-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot01077.jpg
I share Will Hutton's frustration. I find the current squabble between the extremes of old Labour and New Labour indulgent on both sides. Neither are serving the interests of voters. The rejection of the more experienced and popular Burnham or Cooper as leader by Labour party members has confused and bewildered me. Corbyn may have some very worthy ideas about what kind of party Labour should be, but his lack of experience is of grave concern. I remember what I thought when William Hague was voted leader of the Tory party and he'd actually served as a minister in government like Ed. God knows what people make of a Labour party led by a hitherto unheard of backbencher. I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to take polls with a pinch of salt, but I currently find myself filled with horror at the government that has been elected and at the weakness of the party I'm depending on to oppose it. I'm sorry, but it's just the way I feel.
It happened because most party members wanted a change, and Corbyn (for all his manifest imperfections, which many people who voted for him were fully aware of) was seen to be the only one offering that.

And that's why I now find myself at odds with much of the membership.I didn't want change. I believed in Ed Miliband. I felt he was managing to move the party on. I liked his policies, the emphasis on evidence, social democracy. People moan about the Blairites undermining him, but I don't remember the left being any better. Diane Abbott mouthing off about the mansion tax was extremely damaging to Ed at a very crucial time, undermining a key commitment in the Labour party manfesto shortly before the GE.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 1:57 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.
Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.
Yes - but Margaret Thatcher and her doings were somehow more "tangible". This lot are an enveloping noxious and mind-altering miasma with which the country seems ill-equipped to grapple. It's almost as though they must be exorcised, rather than expelled by political means.

Magnificent. I agree.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:04 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote: I share Will Hutton's frustration. I find the current squabble between the extremes of old Labour and New Labour indulgent on both sides. Neither are serving the interests of voters. The rejection of the more experienced and popular Burnham or Cooper as leader by Labour party members has confused and bewildered me. Corbyn may have some very worthy ideas about what kind of party Labour should be, but his lack of experience is of grave concern. I remember what I thought when William Hague was voted leader of the Tory party and he'd actually served as a minister in government like Ed. God knows what people make of a Labour party led by a hitherto unheard of backbencher. I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to take polls with a pinch of salt, but I currently find myself filled with horror at the government that has been elected and at the weakness of the party I'm depending on to oppose it. I'm sorry, but it's just the way I feel.
It happened because most party members wanted a change, and Corbyn (for all his manifest imperfections, which many people who voted for him were fully aware of) was seen to be the only one offering that.
And that's why I now find myself at odds with much of the membership.I didn't want change. I believed in Ed Miliband. I felt he was managing to move the party on. I liked his policies, the emphasis on evidence, social democracy. People moan about the Blairites undermining him, but I don't remember the left being any better. Diane Abbott mouthing off about the mansion tax was extremely damaging to Ed at a very crucial time, undermining a key commitment in the Labour party manfesto shortly before the GE.

Yes, I want to get this right because it's important, I think. I'm able to agree with the content of everyone's posts. It's this fundamental agreement going to bring a better day.

I'm leaving the thread and the news here for today, my friends.
I'll read you all soon.
I love you all.
cJA

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:12 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.
Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.
Yes - but Margaret Thatcher and her doings were somehow more "tangible". This lot are an enveloping noxious and mind-altering miasma with which the country seems ill-equipped to grapple. It's almost as though they must be exorcised, rather than expelled by political means.

Anyone up for a large scale 'Out Demons Out' ritual ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:20 pm

What do you think of this Guardian headline Por Favor ?

''Tory minister expensed room at members' club where he met mistress''

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:20 pm

citizenJA wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:They will use this noise to drown out Osbourns cuts this week. Along with making other warlike noises.

Am starting to wonder whether it is possible to apply somewhere for refugee status.
I understand. It's just the one world, we're all home now and there's nowhere left to go. Don't be dismayed. This is good news.

I am dismayed, I had thought that on the path to a more egalitarian world we would be progressing rather than regressing.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:27 pm

Afternoon all.

I'm just back from a canvassing session on tax credit cuts. My first Labour doorstep outing for a while and a chance to catch up with some other members I haven't seen since just after the election. I got a lift with another member who I knew had supported another leadership candidate but hadn't seen since Corbyn was elected. I asked her how she was feeling with the current situation - she's someone I respect as she has been a member for a long time, is very knowledgeable and experienced on some key issues, and has worked in a Labour MP's constituency office - so she knows the score. She told me she had voted for Yvette Cooper first - but had put Corbyn as her second. What had made her do that was a conversation she had with a Labour member from her old Midlands base who took a long term view of things - that Labour was out of power for a while regardless of whoever was leader and that what was really necessary was that the party had the debate and renewal that it hadn't had post 2010 - which is going to take a while.

Her main feeling about the current situation she described as profound 'embarrassment' for the party because of the members of the PLP who just can't accept that Corbyn was elected and are acting out their stuff so publicly. She sees big problems ahead if they try to oust Corbyn or carry on as they are - she thought the membership would 'explode'.

No one mentioned Corbyn to us on the doorstep. We did encounter one family who all wanted to sign the tax credits petition. The woman said she had voted Tory last time and 'never again'. She said she now realised how dishonest they had been before the election and ticked the box that said she is a Labour supporter. We had a chat with a pleasant young woman who said she thought she 'might' have voted Plaid last time .... and she wasn't sure this time ... she didn't know enough about things. When we asked what she cared about she said she liked the sound of Ukip's 'points system'. We talked about how immigration into this part of the country isn't really of concern - it was that so many young people are having to leave it to find work. It was a good interesting conversation. As was the ad hoc one with some blokes digging a hole in the road about Trident!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:29 pm

Apparently they have $2 trillion in the bank

Where does the Mail get off from making all this shit up?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -bank.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:33 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:I remember exactly where I was, filling the back of my Royal Mail van with parcels before going on delivery. My colleague next door on the loading bay who was also getting prepared for delivery suddenly stood up in the back of the van bumping his head then jumped out into the garage yard punching the air (IDS style). Great news at the time, but Thatcherism never really went away, and this current shower of sh*t make her years seem like a walk in the park.
Up to a point, though it is easy to forget just how bad her regime (and yes, that is a good word for it) was at times.

The political climate (notably after her 1987 GE win) could be downright oppressive.
Yes - but Margaret Thatcher and her doings were somehow more "tangible". This lot are an enveloping noxious and mind-altering miasma with which the country seems ill-equipped to grapple. It's almost as though they must be exorcised, rather than expelled by political means.

That is really very beautifully put, and I agree completely.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:46 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote: I share Will Hutton's frustration. I find the current squabble between the extremes of old Labour and New Labour indulgent on both sides. Neither are serving the interests of voters. The rejection of the more experienced and popular Burnham or Cooper as leader by Labour party members has confused and bewildered me. Corbyn may have some very worthy ideas about what kind of party Labour should be, but his lack of experience is of grave concern. I remember what I thought when William Hague was voted leader of the Tory party and he'd actually served as a minister in government like Ed. God knows what people make of a Labour party led by a hitherto unheard of backbencher. I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to take polls with a pinch of salt, but I currently find myself filled with horror at the government that has been elected and at the weakness of the party I'm depending on to oppose it. I'm sorry, but it's just the way I feel.
It happened because most party members wanted a change, and Corbyn (for all his manifest imperfections, which many people who voted for him were fully aware of) was seen to be the only one offering that.
And that's why I now find myself at odds with much of the membership.I didn't want change. I believed in Ed Miliband. I felt he was managing to move the party on. I liked his policies, the emphasis on evidence, social democracy. People moan about the Blairites undermining him, but I don't remember the left being any better. Diane Abbott mouthing off about the mansion tax was extremely damaging to Ed at a very crucial time, undermining a key commitment in the Labour party manfesto shortly before the GE.

I don't believe the election was winnable after the Ed in the SNP pocket images came out. A tectical error perhaps was Labour accepting Eds resignation. A kind of acceptance that he was what the Tories defined him as rather that the person he actually is. And here everyone is doing the same thing with Corbyn, everyone still dancing to that tune. That money, especially when it is shared among those that have is more important than everything else. So 1000 years of social development get chucked onto the bonfire. And as long as no one takes a stand and everyone dances round that fire it wil ontinue to get worse. That is, all social protections will continue to disappear.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:46 pm

I was working in a posh gift shop in Bath and they were talking about Thatcher's resignation on the radio. I remember a customer, a very well-heeled lady, saying something along the lines about how terrible it was and how she wished they'd stop going on about it. I remember trying to look suitably sombre and uttering a non-committal "umm.." in best customer service style, whilst stiffling sniggers behind her back. It felt like a tiny victory in a long and bloody class war that day. That's why Cameron's government feels worse, because we'd started to get somewhere and yet now it feels like we're right back at the start. That and the fact that back then the Tories got in because the left vote was split between Labour and the SDP. Now votes for right-wing parties seem to outweigh votes for the left. I feel I am living in a right-wing country these days, whereas back then I felt like I was living in a left-wing country being sabotaged by a right-wing government.

I get so fed up of the criticism of Blair. I wasn't his biggest fan myself, but I was able to get to see an NHS dentist again because of him. At one point it wasn't even possible to join a dentist privately where I was because there were so few of them. The falling down schools that were rebuilt, the enormous investment in the NHS, nmw, ban on fox-hunting (that was one in the eye for the ruling classes and they're still sulking about it). And yes, I've had a go myself, because he didn't change enough when he had the chance, he left the establishment relatively untouched ( although it's thanks to him that Cameron is now struggling to get his far right crap through the Lords) but ultimately there's a big difference between not going far enough and being on the wrong side. For me, sometimes, the likes of Cooper or Burnham may not go far enough, but on the wrong side? They all chose Labour. That means something to me.

Sorry if I've been grumpy today, but I can't see how Labour can win against the inbuilt advantages of a powerful establishment without a very broad church, a huge amount of compromise on all sides and a re-invigorated belief in the power of solidarity.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 2:55 pm

yahyah wrote:What do you think of this Guardian headline Por Favor ?

''Tory minister expensed room at members' club where he met mistress''

Well, they could have gone the whole hog and said, "Tory minister expensed room at members' club where he mistressed"

I suppose I must be thankful for small mercies.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:03 pm

Simon Danczuk - No Friends In Oldham
http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... ldham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... But neither paper has mentioned Danczuk’s less than favourable experience when he tried to join those campaigning in the Oldham West and Royton by-election. Possibly stung by claims he failed to show his face in Heywood and Middleton not long ago, Danczuk wanted to make sure everyone knew he not merely backed the candidate, but had shown up on the campaign trail. So he posted a photo showing his presence there.

There is only one problem with that: where are all the other activists? What about him doing a doorstep? By contrast, check out a group of Labour supporters in the same room, including the irrepressible smile of Abby Tomlinson of Milifandom fame. Why was Danczuk not part of a gathering like that? Ah well. My information is that his arrival in Oldham was not exactly greeted with a chorus of enthusiasm.

My source tells “He went to the campaign office yesterday [Friday last] and the locals wouldn’t go out with him. Hence no pictures of him campaigning … no-one wanted to go out with him or be in a photo with him”. This is the constituency next door to his. And, with UKIP mounting a typically opportunist campaign, Labour will want every volunteer they can turn out to go and canvass for them. Every volunteer except one, it seems...

I too would be very worried about being photographed with him ... for all sorts of reasons.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:05 pm

Willow904 wrote:I was working in a posh gift shop in Bath and they were talking about Thatcher's resignation on the radio. I remember a customer, a very well-heeled lady, saying something along the lines about how terrible it was and how she wished they'd stop going on about it. I remember trying to look suitably sombre and uttering a non-committal "umm.." in best customer service style, whilst stiffling sniggers behind her back. It felt like a tiny victory in a long and bloody class war that day. That's why Cameron's government feels worse, because we'd started to get somewhere and yet now it feels like we're right back at the start. That and the fact that back then the Tories got in because the left vote was split between Labour and the SDP. Now votes for right-wing parties seem to outweigh votes for the left. I feel I am living in a right-wing country these days, whereas back then I felt like I was living in a left-wing country being sabotaged by a right-wing government.

I get so fed up of the criticism of Blair. I wasn't his biggest fan myself, but I was able to get to see an NHS dentist again because of him. At one point it wasn't even possible to join a dentist privately where I was because there were so few of them. The falling down schools that were rebuilt, the enormous investment in the NHS, nmw, ban on fox-hunting (that was one in the eye for the ruling classes and they're still sulking about it). And yes, I've had a go myself, because he didn't change enough when he had the chance, he left the establishment relatively untouched ( although it's thanks to him that Cameron is now struggling to get his far right crap through the Lords) but ultimately there's a big difference between not going far enough and being on the wrong side. For me, sometimes, the likes of Cooper or Burnham may not go far enough, but on the wrong side? They all chose Labour. That means something to me.

Sorry if I've been grumpy today, but I can't see how Labour can win against the inbuilt advantages of a powerful establishment without a very broad church, a huge amount of compromise on all sides and a re-invigorated belief in the power of solidarity.

Hi Willow

I share some of your feelings about being in a right-wing country. I am not sure if this is the case or that people are more comfortable now with the simple constructs being fed them by the Tories as a way to deal with an ever more complex world

God knows how this generation would cope with the hardships felt by our grandparents generation.....and the fear of War....followed by the bravery in throwing out Churchill for a different type of society

I also agree with you about Blair to a large extent. He did some very good things and was infinitely better than the Tories would have been. He made the mistake of Iraq which was a really stupid thing to do, especially how he did it and he also loved the power rich too much and let them get away with their financial shenanigans.

The issue now isn't so much his legacy but the interpretation of what he stood for by others and using it as an excuse to prevent any move to the left

I think the broad church and solidarity will come back but it will be further to the left than it was and include some people it didn't before and some people who were part of it will also no longer be so

As many of us here have been saying Corbyn is by no means the ideal candidate of the left and we would not be sorry if he stood down to make way for someone who actually agrees with the big themes of anti-austerity, security being more than just trident and bombs and the public services being worth something more than just cash. Cooper and Burnham had their chance and blew it in the early days of the leadership election. Have they learnt from that?

Whatever happens though he has to make the decision - any indication that the PLP throw him out will not go down well with the membership and will lead to a lot of bad things happening

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:16 pm

Jonathan Reynolds MP Retweeted
Helen Lewis ‏@helenlewis 4h4 hours ago
Irony. Osborne boxed in by two traps he created to stuff (a then centre left) Labour: surplus by 2020, and £12bn in welfare cuts. #bbcsp

I'm glad that this Labour (never mind what degree of left we want to call it) ultimately refused to be stuffed by both those traps and voted against the stupid fiscal charter and the welfare cuts. Adopting the ducking and diving tactics of Osborne isn't going to help - some things need clear opposition and strong arguments why.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:19 pm

Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances. Thieves reinstated back into government posts. Usuary and debt encouraged along with blatant cruelty. Proven liars allowed to continue, sex pests ignored and peodophiles protected, with not an apology or permanent resignation from the lot of them.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:25 pm

And I should add. Deplorable behaviour by the Labour right wing MPs who are coming across as petulant bad losers more interested in feeding their egos, is nearly as bad in my book...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:29 pm

PorFavor wrote:The usual apologies if . . . .

Seema Malhotra
The Observer
Seema Malhotra: the centrist who might be the Corbynistas’ secret weapon
The shadow chancellor’s pro-business deputy has George Osborne’s ‘tax credit fiasco’ firmly in her sights as the autumn statement approaches (Observer\Guardian)
We could do with more of this and less of all the other codswallop.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/21/see

Yes, exactly. She's been good on tax credits, and seems to be working well with McDonnell.

She's actually come from the Right- working for Ian Austin and Liam Byrne.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:36 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.

You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:37 pm

Perhaps it's over simplification on my part, but I remember how I bought my children up.
You don't lie, steal, do damage, be cruel, or whinge and sulk. And if you do wrong and are caught out, accept that there will be consequences you might not like.

And if they should do any of those things, you don't then pat them on the head, turn a blind eye and blame someone else.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.

To the extent he who must not be named does?

Appalling.

I'd be eligible.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:48 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.

And that doesn't make it okay ...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:48 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... eremy-hunt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Patients could die if junior doctors' strike goes ahead, says Jeremy Hunt

Surprised he took so long to wheel out this rubbish.

Classic comment of its sort, where you talk only about the risks of your opponent's position. The risk of people dying when junior doctors quit is left out of the equation.

Greens do this sort of thing with GM foods, nuclear power, fracking etc.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.
To the extent he who must not be named does?

Appalling.

I'd be eligible.

Osborne? You think he's using cocaine now?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.

I think it's more a matter of whether the drug taking is current / recent, what they were in charge of whilst high / mind and body altered, and the inherent hypocrisy of those who are able to set drugs and criminal policy partaking of them and potentially criminal activities.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:51 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jonathan Reynolds MP Retweeted
Helen Lewis ‏@helenlewis 4h4 hours ago
Irony. Osborne boxed in by two traps he created to stuff (a then centre left) Labour: surplus by 2020, and £12bn in welfare cuts. #bbcsp
I'm glad that this Labour (never mind what degree of left we want to call it) ultimately refused to be stuffed by both those traps and voted against the stupid fiscal charter and the welfare cuts. Adopting the ducking and diving tactics of Osborne isn't going to help - some things need clear opposition and strong arguments why.

It's an irony indeed.

I wonder if they were intending to raise VAT until they worried about Labour getting traction on it. But perhaps they were just caught out by winning a majority.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:52 pm

Philip Davies: Bills the Tory MP has attempted to filibuster

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/ ... lang=en-gb

This doesn't say much for the people of Shipley who voted him in, does it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:53 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.
I think it's more a matter of whether the drug taking is current / recent, what they were in charge of whilst high / mind and body altered, and the inherent hypocrisy of those who are able to set drugs and criminal policy partaking of them and potentially criminal activities.

I'm not clear on who you're talking about. Is it Osborne? Is he supposed to be taking coke now?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:54 pm

"Mr Cameron did not respond" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... s-row.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01084.jpg (70.74 KiB) Viewed 8100 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 3:57 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Every so often I'm taken aback at how public perception of right and wrong has changed.

We have drug takers tolerated even though they control the country's finances.
You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.
I think it's more a matter of whether the drug taking is current / recent, what they were in charge of whilst high / mind and body altered, and the inherent hypocrisy of those who are able to set drugs and criminal policy partaking of them and potentially criminal activities.

I think it goes without saying current drug taking when they have our lives in their hands is unacceptable. A clear head is the least we should expect...

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:00 pm

It was widespread in the HOC http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/07/ ... rug-revela" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01085.jpg (46.62 KiB) Viewed 8093 times

[youtube]IWJyY3GWOsw[/youtube]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:00 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jonathan Reynolds MP Retweeted
Helen Lewis ‏@helenlewis 4h4 hours ago
Irony. Osborne boxed in by two traps he created to stuff (a then centre left) Labour: surplus by 2020, and £12bn in welfare cuts. #bbcsp
I'm glad that this Labour (never mind what degree of left we want to call it) ultimately refused to be stuffed by both those traps and voted against the stupid fiscal charter and the welfare cuts. Adopting the ducking and diving tactics of Osborne isn't going to help - some things need clear opposition and strong arguments why.
It's an irony indeed.

I wonder if they were intending to raise VAT until they worried about Labour getting traction on it. But perhaps they were just caught out by winning a majority.

Or caught short (bearing in mind DC's stated coping mechanism) -

David Cameron complains PMQs 'getting longer and longer' (Express & Star)

I can quite see why time might be of the essence to him . . .

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-n ... g-longer-a

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:02 pm

Can someone explain this to me please. Is this a DWP statement - a Labour analysis / statement - and if tax credit cuts don't go ahead as proposed will it still happen?

: Tax Credit Cuts Tied Up with UC.jpg (62.78 KiB) Viewed 8090 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:02 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: You're going to struggle to fill a Cabinet with people who've never taken drugs.
To the extent he who must not be named does?

Appalling.

I'd be eligible.
Osborne? You think he's using cocaine now?

It'd be nice to know for sure he isn't ...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:04 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I'm glad that this Labour (never mind what degree of left we want to call it) ultimately refused to be stuffed by both those traps and voted against the stupid fiscal charter and the welfare cuts. Adopting the ducking and diving tactics of Osborne isn't going to help - some things need clear opposition and strong arguments why.
It's an irony indeed.

I wonder if they were intending to raise VAT until they worried about Labour getting traction on it. But perhaps they were just caught out by winning a majority.

Or caught short (bearing in mind DC's stated coping mechanism) -

David Cameron complains PMQs 'getting longer and longer' (Express & Star)
I can quite see why time might be of the essence to him . . .

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-n ... g-longer-a

And if he did pee himself, he'd blame Corbyn.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 4:12 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Just after the defeat in May's general election John Curtice was saying that we need a 12.5% lead in 2020 just to get a majority, the Comres poll currently puts Lab 15 points behind. That's a lot of catching up, it's not going to happen. It's all so terribly depressing and frustrating , I don't know how they are going to turn this around even if somehow Mann Danczuk and the rest of the clique got their way and JC was removed. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... e-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not as bad as that. Not all that easy for the Tories to get a majority without Cameron and he won't get the Liberals supporting him again.

Labour plus Liberals plus SNP have a good chance of getting more seats than the Tories.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... eremy-hunt

Patients could die if junior doctors' strike goes ahead, says Jeremy Hunt

The evidence says not.

Doctors' strikes and mortality: a review.
Cunningham SA1, Mitchell K, Narayan KM, Yusuf S.
Author information
Abstract
A paradoxical pattern has been suggested in the literature on doctors' strikes: when health workers go on strike, mortality stays level or decreases. We performed a review of the literature during the past forty years to assess this paradox. We used PubMed, EconLit and Jstor to locate all peer-reviewed English-language articles presenting data analysis on mortality associated with doctors' strikes. We identified 156 articles, seven of which met our search criteria. The articles analyzed five strikes around the world, all between 1976 and 2003. The strikes lasted between nine days and seventeen weeks. All reported that mortality either stayed the same or decreased during, and in some cases, after the strike. None found that mortality increased during the weeks of the strikes compared to other time periods. The paradoxical finding that physician strikes are associated with reduced mortality may be explained by several factors. Most importantly, elective surgeries are curtailed during strikes. Further, hospitals often re-assign scarce staff and emergency care was available during all of the strikes. Finally, none of the strikes may have lasted long enough to assess the effects of long-term reduced access to a physician. Nonetheless, the literature suggests that reductions in mortality may result from these strikes.
PMID: 18849101 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:15 pm

I know, *unt wouldn't recognise evidence if it jumped up and slapped him round the chops.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:19 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Can someone explain this to me please. Is this a DWP statement - a Labour analysis / statement - and if tax credit cuts don't go ahead as proposed will it still happen?

Tax Credit Cuts Tied Up with UC.jpg

The cuts and changes to tax credit entitlement enacted by the coalition included increasing the hours worked before you could claim, changing the rate of income at which child tax credits could be claimed, and abolishing certain types of tax credits.
If you worked 16-plus hours a week at NMW, you could claim (as a single able-bodied person), but now you must work 30 hours or more; couples who could do 16 hours between them must now work 24 hours or more. Lone parents/disabled hours unchanged.

There is an assumption of a certain level of income before the tax credits are reduced - currently it is £6,420 PA - ie. you can earn that much, claim tax credits, and not have them reduced too steeply. The clawback is currently 65 to 75 pence per pound of earnings.
The proposed changes to tax credits mean that the income level is to be reduced to £3,850 - so from April 2016, anyone earning more than that will have their tax credits reduced very steeply. That means a clawback of 75 to 90 pence in every pound earned.

Universal Credit has a "work allowance" ie. you can earn £X and still claim. Originally, people could expect to keep the same sort of amount as with tax credits now (although many respected fact-checkers have disproved this), ie. up to 75 pence per pound earned.
Changing this work allowance would have the same effect as the proposed tax credit changes.

For some people, they will not be better off in work at all.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:30 pm

gilsey wrote:I know, *unt wouldn't recognise evidence if it jumped up and slapped him round the chops.

Oh he knows all right.

He's following party policy. Big rewards if he keeps privatisation on track...

John Hurr ‏@JohnHurr 21 mins21 minutes ago
A liar and coward unable to face the electorate > Hunt cancels talk in Ealing as 100s of protesters gather at hall

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/wes ... ar_twitter

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:47 pm

@RR2

Summer Budget Policy Costings page 49

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... udget-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:56 pm

Here you go - my good story for the day.

Homeless Big Issue seller to marry woman he met while selling magazine
Jack Richardson to tie knot with woman he met when she walked passed his pitch next to a bin in central Bristol and they became close friends
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... azine.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... A homeless Big Issue seller is getting married - to a woman he met when he asked her for money while selling the magazine.
Jack Richardson, 37, first met wife-to-be Toni Robinson almost two years ago, when he asked her for cash as she passed his regular roadside spot.
But Miss Robinson apologised saying that she had none - and Mr Richardson ended up giving her 50p for her electricity meter so she would not have to spend Christmas in the dark.
Over the next year, Miss Robinson often walked past his Big Issue pitch - next to a bin in central Bristol - and they became close friends.
So when Mr Richardson's squat in the suburb of Clifton was boarded up just before Christmas last year, leaving him without a roof over his head, Miss Robinson offered to put him up. The pair fell for each other - and Jack never left.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 22 Nov, 2015 5:58 pm

HindleA wrote:@RR2

Summer Budget Policy Costings page 49

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... udget-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you. I couldn't get my head around what the document actually was.

Well - I think we can safely say those assumptions and calculations are pretty much up the swanee.