Monday 30th November 2015

[Tubby Isaacs]

But too many moderate party figures who should know better are going round telling people how they “cannot bring themselves” to vote for Sadiq Khan as London mayor next year or even how they want Ukip to win the Oldham by-election.

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

[Tubby Isaacs]

George Parker ‏@GeorgeWParker 2m2 minutes ago
Lib dems still discussing whether to back war. Epic meeting. Told that @timfarron persuaded by Cameron case. Big party shift from Iraq 2003?

Free vote is the best thing they could do, and try and pressure Cameron.

[rebeccariots2]

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 4m4 minutes ago
Peter Mandelson outside Labour PLP meeting: "Amazing meeting." Stewart Wood: "Lively discussion. That's the word, lively."

Scuse my thickness - but is the Labour PLP meeting one that both MPs and Lords / Peers attend? If not - why is Mandelson there?

[howsillyofme1]

Nobody's going to think that Labour's against if the Shadow Foreign Secretary and Deputy Leader vote For. It's a free vote. Just call it that.

Good on Corbyn for asking for a 2 day debate though.

That can be easily solved....change shadow Foreign Secretary!

No Mr Benn is doing an excellent job.

Is he?

First big foreign policy decision and he goes against the membership, the leader and most intelligent commentators!

Hardly seems a resounding success

Should resign or be sacked!

[rebeccariots2]

But too many moderate party figures who should know better are going round telling people how they “cannot bring themselves” to vote for Sadiq Khan as London mayor next year or even how they want Ukip to win the Oldham by-election.

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 4m4 minutes ago
Peter Mandelson outside Labour PLP meeting: "Amazing meeting." Stewart Wood: "Lively discussion. That's the word, lively."

Scuse my thickness - but is the Labour PLP meeting one that both MPs and Lords / Peers attend? If not - why is Mandelson there?

They're both peers.

I assume that the PLP meeting is held in Westminster somewhere. The Commons is sitting now, so I guess they don't send the PLP off to a meeting room somewhere else.

[Tubby Isaacs]

But too many moderate party figures who should know better are going round telling people how they “cannot bring themselves” to vote for Sadiq Khan as London mayor next year or even how they want Ukip to win the Oldham by-election.

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

The point is to make themselves look bad?

[rebeccariots2]

Andy Slaughter MP ‏@hammersmithandy 4m4 minutes ago
Hunt could have agreed to go to Acas weeks ago. He has provoked junior doctors' dispute and now needs to negotiate in good faith.

Good faith ... Hunt ... hmmm.

[rebeccariots2]

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

The point is to make themselves look bad?

I think that's the really disturbing thing about this Tubby - as I pondered aloud in my post at the top of this page. Why the hell do the people saying and writing such utterly negative stuff think it will help their and Labour's cause ...

[HindleA]

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-11- ... -of-lords/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zero-hours contracts to work at House of Lords

[rebeccariots2]

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 4m4 minutes ago
Peter Mandelson outside Labour PLP meeting: "Amazing meeting." Stewart Wood: "Lively discussion. That's the word, lively."

Scuse my thickness - but is the Labour PLP meeting one that both MPs and Lords / Peers attend? If not - why is Mandelson there?

They're both peers.

I assume that the PLP meeting is held in Westminster somewhere. The Commons is sitting now, so I guess they don't send the PLP off to a meeting room somewhere else.

So that's my question - do Peers also attend the Labour PLP meeting? I think they do go off to a meeting room somewhere from the various tweets etc - unless the main HoC chamber is upstairs?

[rebeccariots2]

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Labour grandee: "It was the most uplifting PLP meeting I have seen because of the ferocity of the attacks on Corbyn.”

I'm guessing that's Mandelson.

[howsillyofme1]

Looking forward to seeing who votes with Cameron

Hopefully membership will mobilize and deselect some of them at boundary review time

There is no justification for voting for this policy!

Only thing to do now is get rid of some of them and start again. Too many still do not accept the world has changed

[seeingclearly]

I shall miss the voice of Lady Centauria in this place.
She lightened many nights with her presence,
and opened my eyes to things I may not otherwise have seen.
I shall miss you in the depths of night, LadyC.

[ohsocynical]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw

Thousands of cancer patients 'too poor to celebrate Christmas'
The survey by Macmillan found people with cancer have to miss out on family events because of monetary worries

Yep.
Have spent my Xmas money on getting the boiler repaired, and then setting aside extra money for the higher heating bill we'll be getting.
Lots more washing too, so our water bills will be higher and thank God for cheaper detergent, disinfectant sprays, and bleach from Aldi. I'm getting through them at an alarming rate.
There's extra petrol for all the 30 mile round trip hospital visits. Car parking fees for the first couple of months, Paying for the disabled sticker. Bits and bobs for hospital stays. Smaller amounts, but by golly they do add up.

At least with our pensions we have the same amount of money coming in each month and if we don't do much this Christmas it isn't the end of the world, but I shudder to think how we'd be coping if Mr Ohso wasn't retired.

[PorFavor]

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Labour grandee: "It was the most uplifting PLP meeting I have seen because of the ferocity of the attacks on Corbyn.”

I'm guessing that's Mandelson.

Arrogant bastard. And I voted for Yvette Cooper . . .


Edited to add

I'm guessing, too, of course. But I reckon it's a good guess.

[citizenJA]

I was thinking today that I don't understand why some of those who are so unhappy with Corbyn as leader and the shift away from the Blair / Brown fulcrum of politics (I honestly don't know what to call that now - moderate, neo liberal, right of centre, centre left - take your pick) think it will help their cause to demolish any semblance of party unity - and reduce the membership and standing - and, as a result, probably the number of Labour MPs, councillors and other elected reps.

Wouldn't you want to try and work out what was needed to get your message across better to the membership - be seen to work hard to bridge the gap between membership and PLP - build a stronger party that's better able to accept and support a new leader if and when the time comes? Why do some seem to think a wrecked party will help their cause?

Yes, RR2, exactly, thank you.
I read the Baldwin article and counted too many 'they's, no names.
His article was vague, sloppy and intentionally dissent-stirring for its own sake.
It's what I'd expect from a damned concern troll.

Just to make clear, this guy is former something or other, he's not a Labour party anything at this point and when he did work in communications for Ed Miliband's team, his name crops up every time there's dissension within the Labour party. Damned bad penny.

[ohsocynical]

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Labour grandee: "It was the most uplifting PLP meeting I have seen because of the ferocity of the attacks on Corbyn.”

I'm guessing that's Mandelson.

And we're not supposed to call them Blairites?

How about Bastards?

[TechnicalEphemera]

I was thinking today that I don't understand why some of those who are so unhappy with Corbyn as leader and the shift away from the Blair / Brown fulcrum of politics (I honestly don't know what to call that now - moderate, neo liberal, right of centre, centre left - take your pick) think it will help their cause to demolish any semblance of party unity - and reduce the membership and standing - and, as a result, probably the number of Labour MPs, councillors and other elected reps.

Wouldn't you want to try and work out what was needed to get your message across better to the membership - be seen to work hard to bridge the gap between membership and PLP - build a stronger party that's better able to accept and support a new leader if and when the time comes? Why do some seem to think a wrecked party will help their cause?

I think you make a number of excellent points. However this is mainly about people who are fed up with moving away from Miliband/Kinnock than Blair/Brown.

I will define moderate as anybody from the left, centre left, right, who believes the primary function of the Labour Party is to find a way to beat the Tories in a general election, and that this can only be achieved by presenting a set of credible policies that are reasonably in tune with the majority of the electorate.

This in my view does not include the Bennite Left.

In theory the moderate wing of the party should recruit members, Blair grew the membership - but only after he was elected. The issue is that groups like Momentum (militant 2 as I see them) seek to dominate policy to a large degree by excluding moderate views. This is why moderates get called red Tories and why they are leaving in some numbers. There is a reason Corbyn's shock troops abuse their opponents on social media (despite his best efforts to stop them) that is because it works.

Realistically you can't recruit people with moderate views into Corbyn's party because they don't agree with much of what he says, and it is a hostile environment when they arrive. This means that the membership starts to become the number one barrier to winning power. Their views increasingly diverge from the majority (as shown in recent polling) and as they impose policy the party simply excludes itself from serious electoral consideration. Inevitably you end up with something that looks like the 1983 manifesto.

The worry is many of these people are happy to lose elections and now (for the first time ever) the Bennites are in charge I don't see what the recovery mechanism is post 2020. I cannot remember how Kinnock pulled the party out of its death spiral in 84, but even a Kinnock figure might find it takes 15 years to get back to power. Labour 2035 anybody?

[Rebecca]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw

Thousands of cancer patients 'too poor to celebrate Christmas'
The survey by Macmillan found people with cancer have to miss out on family events because of monetary worries

Yep.
Have spent my Xmas money on getting the boiler repaired, and then setting aside extra money for the higher heating bill we'll be getting.
Lots more washing too, so our water bills will be higher and thank God for cheaper detergent, disinfectant sprays, and bleach from Aldi. I'm getting through them at an alarming rate.
There's extra petrol for all the 30 mile round trip hospital visits. Car parking fees for the first couple of months, Paying for the disabled sticker. Bits and bobs for hospital stays. Smaller amounts, but by golly they do add up.

At least with our pensions we have the same amount of money coming in each month and if we don't do much this Christmas it isn't the end of the world, but I shudder to think how we'd be coping if Mr Ohso wasn't retired.

I'm so sorry about all this Mrs Ohso,but sometimes quiet,low key Christmases are nice as well,and I know your family will all be there for you.
x

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I posted this last night, but without direct reference to the terrible news that we have lost the wonderful Lady Centauria. So, once again and because I know she loved it

[youtube]F-oAaElViaU[/youtube]

[Willow904]

Supermoon eclipse 27th Sept 2015.jpg (24.94 KiB) Viewed 5949 times

In memory of Lady Centauria.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Wow Willow that's a juxtaposition moment I'll remember. Miss you Lady C x

[Tubby Isaacs]

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

The point is to make themselves look bad?

I think that's the really disturbing thing about this Tubby - as I pondered aloud in my post at the top of this page. Why the hell do the people saying and writing such utterly negative stuff think it will help their and Labour's cause ...

They can make Corbyn and Labour look bad while not making themselves look bad.

They aren't that stupid.

[citizenJA]

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

The point is to make themselves look bad?

Yes. That's all Baldwin did with his dumb article. I don't trust someone writing 'they' 'they' 'they' crap and no names. Garbage. I bet he votes Tory. That's gossip, of course, I don't know how Baldwin votes.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Looking forward to seeing who votes with Cameron

Hopefully membership will mobilize and deselect some of them at boundary review time

There is no justification for voting for this policy!

Only thing to do now is get rid of some of them and start again. Too many still do not accept the world has changed

How did that turn out last time?

Appallingly, is the answer.

[citizenJA]

The point is to make themselves look bad?

I think that's the really disturbing thing about this Tubby - as I pondered aloud in my post at the top of this page. Why the hell do the people saying and writing such utterly negative stuff think it will help their and Labour's cause ...

They can make Corbyn and Labour look bad while not making themselves look bad.

They aren't that stupid.

I respectfully disagree.
Baldwin's dumber than sh**.

[ohsocynical]

Supermoon eclipse 27th Sept 2015.jpg

In memory of Lady Centauria.

Don't know if anyone else agrees but would it be possible for this to go onto a permanent board? I'm sure there'll be people who haven't visited lately, who might be glad at a later date to add their names.

[howsillyofme1]

Looking forward to seeing who votes with Cameron

Hopefully membership will mobilize and deselect some of them at boundary review time

There is no justification for voting for this policy!

Only thing to do now is get rid of some of them and start again. Too many still do not accept the world has changed

How did that turn out last time?

Appallingly, is the answer.

And the current situation isn't?

You did see that we got well beaten in May on a moderate left platform where the leader was undermined by the same people who are doing it now

We have apparently 2/3 of the SC supporting a ridiculous policy put forward by a cretinous PM and using it as a political weapon against the leader

The leader of the party was voted in by 60% of the voters in the party election. Don't you think that should make some of the MPs think a bit

Finally, none of the policies put forward by the leadership up to now are out of sync with moderate left policies that Miliband would have done (apart from Trident which has been outed for the waste of money it is)

There may be a need for a realignment of the left. A truly moderate left wing party - perhaps with someone else as leader in the medium term but a party without some of the right wingers who infiltrated the party under controlled short lists under Blair

You make it sound like only the left ever are guilty of influencing the PLP direction. Blair and Mandelson purged the left very effectively which is one of the reasons why we are where we are now

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Supermoon eclipse 27th Sept 2015.jpg

In memory of Lady Centauria.

Don't know if anyone else agrees but would it be possible for this to go onto a permanent board? I'm sure there'll be people who haven't visited lately, who might be glad at a later date to add their names.

I think we should and will create a Lady C thread at some point. But I suggest we think about what that looks like after the initial grief. Until then let's share our thoughts here if that's OK with everyone. Paul x

[citizenJA]

But too many moderate party figures who should know better are going round telling people how they “cannot bring themselves” to vote for Sadiq Khan as London mayor next year or even how they want Ukip to win the Oldham by-election.

I'd be surprised if they were blabbing in front of Tom Baldwin.

That "won't vote for Sadiq Khan" sounds like rubbish. What's the point of even saying that? It makes no difference who they vote for in a city-wide public election.

If people are saying this it basically just sends a huge message that Labour under Corbyn are rubbish to anyone who hears / reads it ... and builds on the last terrible message that they or someone else put out / leaked to the same effect. I think that might be the point.

Yes, I agree with you.
It's foolish, if it's done by someone who wants a Labour government.
I doubt they do.

[ohsocynical]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw

Thousands of cancer patients 'too poor to celebrate Christmas'
The survey by Macmillan found people with cancer have to miss out on family events because of monetary worries

Yep.
Have spent my Xmas money on getting the boiler repaired, and then setting aside extra money for the higher heating bill we'll be getting.
Lots more washing too, so our water bills will be higher and thank God for cheaper detergent, disinfectant sprays, and bleach from Aldi. I'm getting through them at an alarming rate.
There's extra petrol for all the 30 mile round trip hospital visits. Car parking fees for the first couple of months, Paying for the disabled sticker. Bits and bobs for hospital stays. Smaller amounts, but by golly they do add up.

At least with our pensions we have the same amount of money coming in each month and if we don't do much this Christmas it isn't the end of the world, but I shudder to think how we'd be coping if Mr Ohso wasn't retired.

I'm so sorry about all this Mrs Ohso,but sometimes quiet,low key Christmases are nice as well,and I know your family will all be there for you.
x

Yep. We need to get Mr Ohso sorted first. The family understands.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Looking forward to seeing who votes with Cameron

Hopefully membership will mobilize and deselect some of them at boundary review time

There is no justification for voting for this policy!

Only thing to do now is get rid of some of them and start again. Too many still do not accept the world has changed

How did that turn out last time?

Appallingly, is the answer.

And the current situation isn't?

238 MPs, and Tory majority of 12 isn't appalling.

In 1987, Labour had 209 seats, and the Tory majority was 102.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Blair and Mandelson purged the left very effectively which is one of the reasons why we are where we are now

That was Kinnock, not Blair.

btw, I don't see the new members as entryists or anything, and they weren't in the early 80s either. Point I'm making is that chucking out MPs or threatening to, isn't likely to end well. They have four and a half years of their mandates to run. That's a very powerful position.

[citizenJA]

Supermoon eclipse 27th Sept 2015.jpg

In memory of Lady Centauria.

Don't know if anyone else agrees but would it be possible for this to go onto a permanent board? I'm sure there'll be people who haven't visited lately, who might be glad at a later date to add their names.

I think we should and will create a Lady C thread at some point. But I suggest we think about what that looks like after the initial grief. Until then let's share our thoughts here if that's OK with everyone. Paul x

I like Paul's suggestion. The images and messages are lovely. Willow904's image is glorious, like LadyC, I didn't know LadyC loved the wolves howling at the moon video. I've bookmarked that one.

I love you, people, thank you.

[howsillyofme1]

How did that turn out last time?

Appallingly, is the answer.

And the current situation isn't?

238 MPs, and Tory majority of 12 isn't appalling.

In 1987, Labour had 209 seats, and the Tory majority was 102.

I am talking about the make up and behaviour of the MPs

A good proportion of them seem happier supporting the Tories than their own party!

[howsillyofme1]

Blair and Mandelson purged the left very effectively which is one of the reasons why we are where we are now

That was Kinnock, not Blair.

He started it but it was continued under them....

[Tubby Isaacs]

I can remember Blair chucking out Liz Davies from being a candidate, but who else exactly?

[HindleA]

An organised "membership"deselection attempt for all those that "disagree",as pernicious,unhelpful and as wrecking as those you bemoan.I went through such attempts,before,I got caught up in the maelstrom.Never again,once was enough.It should make you wary that a non alligned long term member would leave.

[citizenJA]

Looking forward to seeing who votes with Cameron

Hopefully membership will mobilize and deselect some of them at boundary review time

There is no justification for voting for this policy!
Only thing to do now is get rid of some of them and start again. Too many still do not accept the world has changed

How did that turn out last time?

Appallingly, is the answer.

And the current situation isn't?

You did see that we got well beaten in May on a moderate left platform where the leader was undermined by the same people who are doing it now

We have apparently 2/3 of the SC supporting a ridiculous policy put forward by a cretinous PM and using it as a political weapon against the leader

The leader of the party was voted in by 60% of the voters in the party election. Don't you think that should make some of the MPs think a bit

Finally, none of the policies put forward by the leadership up to now are out of sync with moderate left policies that Miliband would have done (apart from Trident which has been outed for the waste of money it is)

There may be a need for a realignment of the left. A truly moderate left wing party - perhaps with someone else as leader in the medium term but a party without some of the right wingers who infiltrated the party under controlled short lists under Blair

You make it sound like only the left ever are guilty of influencing the PLP direction. Blair and Mandelson purged the left very effectively which is one of the reasons why we are where we are now

I think Labour are more or less okay enough together, I think people expected Labour to get in and didn't bother voting in 2015. That and every material resource available to the Tory party was utilised to make sure as many people as possible didn't bother voting or got lied to about the Labour party, got promised good things from Tories, repeatedly, in the hopes some weren't paying attention. The Tories succeeded there. It's easy enough to become a Tory politician if that's what someone wants to do - what a boon to the Tory party that'd be - Labour MPs turn Tory. It hasn't happened and it could've.

[Tubby Isaacs]

UK PM David Cameron says he will call a one-day Commons debate and vote on Wednesday over air strikes in Syria

Hope this backfires.

[Tubby Isaacs]

An organised "membership"deselection attempt for all those that "disagree",as pernicious,unhelpful and as wrecking as those you bemoan.I went through such attempts,before,I got caught up in the maelstrom.Never again,once was enough.It should make you wary that a non alligned long term member would leave.

And run as an independent, or join the Liberal Democrats....

[citizenJA]

And the current situation isn't?

238 MPs, and Tory majority of 12 isn't appalling.

In 1987, Labour had 209 seats, and the Tory majority was 102.

I am talking about the make up and behaviour of the MPs

A good proportion of them seem happier supporting the Tories than their own party!

I disagree with you there, a 'good proportion of Labour MPs seem happier supporting Tories'? No. Please list each Labour MP, the 'good proportion' of Labour MPs who support what the Tories have done - 'Welfare' Reform, bedroom tax, NHS shake-down, ripping off local authorities, homelessness increase, foodbanks, tax credits decimation.

[danesclose]

I think you make a number of excellent points. However this is mainly about people who are fed up with moving away from Miliband/Kinnock than Blair/Brown.

Sorry but that is nonsense. The people behind the attempts to undermine Corbyn are the ones who spent the last 5 years undermining Miliband.

[howsillyofme1]

An organised "membership"deselection attempt for all those that "disagree",as pernicious,unhelpful and as wrecking as those you bemoan.I went through such attempts,before,I got caught up in the maelstrom.Never again,once was enough.It should make you wary that a non alligned long term member would leave.

It is not just 'disagreeing' about policy though is it

It appears to be coordinated dissent with a view to undermining the leader. This is a similar approach that the hard left too against Kinnock and he acted decisively

It now seems the right of the party are trying it on as well and they need to start acting more constructively or something else needs to happen

This is not the 80s when small numbers of the extreme left in certain areas tried to undermine the majority view of the membership

We have a leader elected by landslide implementing policies he promised to implement with views he has had for 30 years and yet certain members of the PLP who have little support in the membership are acting as though they are the majority

Also, we have a Shadow Foreign Secretary going against his leadership and membership to vote for a poorly thought out policy from a lying PM. How do you think that makes the party look?

If he cannot support his leader on a matter in his brief the he has to resign...no ifs no buts

And this article shows how Blair managed to change the party structure by controlling who were candidates. Very subtle.

I would not advocate res elections as a standard instrument but there will have to be decisions made due the latest nonsensical plan of the Tories to reduce constituency numbers. If there are choices to be made then it is up to the membership to make them and they should look at the behaviour of their candidates!

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/how- ... urge-them/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

The" Short-Arsed,people are too tall,equalise height" Party.

[citizenJA]

UK PM David Cameron says he will call a one-day Commons debate and vote on Wednesday over air strikes in Syria

Hope this backfires.

So no two day debate then? Of course not, Dave couldn't possibly concede Corbyn is correct calling for a two day debate over bombing Syria. Dave's an immature peacock.

[rebeccariots2]

I was thinking today that I don't understand why some of those who are so unhappy with Corbyn as leader and the shift away from the Blair / Brown fulcrum of politics (I honestly don't know what to call that now - moderate, neo liberal, right of centre, centre left - take your pick) think it will help their cause to demolish any semblance of party unity - and reduce the membership and standing - and, as a result, probably the number of Labour MPs, councillors and other elected reps.

Wouldn't you want to try and work out what was needed to get your message across better to the membership - be seen to work hard to bridge the gap between membership and PLP - build a stronger party that's better able to accept and support a new leader if and when the time comes? Why do some seem to think a wrecked party will help their cause?

I think you make a number of excellent points. However this is mainly about people who are fed up with moving away from Miliband/Kinnock than Blair/Brown.

I will define moderate as anybody from the left, centre left, right, who believes the primary function of the Labour Party is to find a way to beat the Tories in a general election, and that this can only be achieved by presenting a set of credible policies that are reasonably in tune with the majority of the electorate.

This in my view does not include the Bennite Left.

In theory the moderate wing of the party should recruit members, Blair grew the membership - but only after he was elected. The issue is that groups like Momentum (militant 2 as I see them) seek to dominate policy to a large degree by excluding moderate views. This is why moderates get called red Tories and why they are leaving in some numbers. There is a reason Corbyn's shock troops abuse their opponents on social media (despite his best efforts to stop them) that is because it works.

Realistically you can't recruit people with moderate views into Corbyn's party because they don't agree with much of what he says, and it is a hostile environment when they arrive. This means that the membership starts to become the number one barrier to winning power. Their views increasingly diverge from the majority (as shown in recent polling) and as they impose policy the party simply excludes itself from serious electoral consideration. Inevitably you end up with something that looks like the 1983 manifesto.

The worry is many of these people are happy to lose elections and now (for the first time ever) the Bennites are in charge I don't see what the recovery mechanism is post 2020. I cannot remember how Kinnock pulled the party out of its death spiral in 84, but even a Kinnock figure might find it takes 15 years to get back to power. Labour 2035 anybody?

Sorry TE - you posted just before I went off to have a bath (got to observe some niceties before getting on a train tomorrow).

Leaving aside such biggies as your definition of moderate - I suppose, from what you say above, are you basically telling me you think we've got the wrong kind of membership? Well if so - maybe we are doomed. I can only speak from the membership I know - but these are the people putting in the work - and who have been putting in the work for years and years. I have to say that those putting in the work here really want to win elections ... but the reason they get out and put the work in is because they want to make things better ... We've had a big influx of new members since Corbyn was elected - and many are willing to come out with us - and also to start new projects so that Labour can be a community organisation - an evident force for good.

Can we win the next and future elections without these people doing that work? That might be the most pertinent question?
.

[howsillyofme1]

238 MPs, and Tory majority of 12 isn't appalling.

In 1987, Labour had 209 seats, and the Tory majority was 102.

I am talking about the make up and behaviour of the MPs

A good proportion of them seem happier supporting the Tories than their own party!

I disagree with you there, a 'good proportion of Labour MPs seem happier supporting Tories'? No. Please list each Labour MP, the 'good proportion' of Labour MPs who support what the Tories have done - 'Welfare' Reform, bedroom tax, NHS shake-down, ripping off local authorities, homelessness increase, foodbanks, tax credits decimation.

Well a lot abstained on 'welfare reform' in an attempt to undermine Burnham (Corbyn is not the only one). There seems to be quite a lot of support for austerity as a principle and surplus was suggested by Kendall as being something worth looking at despite where we are in the economic cycle making it economically ridiculous. Benefit cap is also quite popular and then there is the MPs who seem to think another bout of bombing in the Middle East is a good idea

I am not saying Labour MOs are Tories but I am of the view that a good percentage a closer politically to the PM than their own leader

[rebeccariots2]

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 7m7 minutes ago
Struck by the number of Labour MPs writing thoughtful pieces on websites, Facebook etc opposing air strikes.

Yes, so am I.

When this vote happens it is going to be a strange exercise / analysis to look at who voted which way ... and from which intake etc etc.